@#68: There’s a better list of the state’s remarkable capacity for murdering its own people: http://thaipoliticalprisoners.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/60-years-of-oppression-in-thailand.pdf
That file is nicked from Time Up Thailand. It states: “since 1947, of close to 11 000 people who, in one way or other, were assassinated in their struggle for democratic representation. For six decades the power elite in Thailand has done all it can to cover-up the trail of extra-judicial political killing it oversees with impunity, and it must be understood that the figure of 11 000 is probably less than half, or even only one third, of the actual level of sacrifice.”
“It’s not, despite your view on the matter, illegal in Thailand to visit people in prison.”
Indeed …. Nor was that the point as you very well know. And I have visited many of them myself in both Bang Kwang and Klong Prem. But as you have already pointed out, this is a rather more complex issue when visiting LM accused prisoners especially if one is a journalist with that designation recorded in one’s passport. Yet more side stepping Andrew?
“I should also point out that even if journalists and human rights workers are unable to visit the prisoners directly it is still possible to monitor conditions to a degree by speaking to relatives or support groups.”
Yes… Are you suggesting you are the only person who has ever done this?
“and have consistently been made aware of health problems, mistreatment etc. ”
Good. Well done.
“Also nearly all of them said that hardly any foreign journalists had been in contact regarding the plight of the prisoners.”
Just because your source is not another’s source, does not mean that another does not have a source. Nor was that your original gripe when delivering your ill informed ‘250 baht ride’ swipe at the foreign press…. As with all your arguments, this particular argument is subject to ever changing ‘shift’ as you are challenged on it, or asked to stand by it.
#73 “no real harm done.”
None at all…. Although in my experience implying that a Scotsman is English is about as risky as trying to snog an angry hippopotamus…. And lets face it, we have all tried to do that on the odd occasion……
#74 “There’s just something about the tone of your writing that makes me think you are and I wouldn’t want to have the wrong impression.”
I am Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco to exactly the same degree that you are ‘Pro Democracy John Smith’ or the second ‘Asian Journo’…… As I am sure you know some spineless buffoon took it upon themselves, of late, to take advantage of the intellectual hospitality of Messrs Farrelly and Walker to assume the names of other posters and then demean any possible debate by attempting to score silly points with endless sweaty bla bla under their cuckooed names….. Admittedly ‘Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco’ is an exceedingly common name, so there is still room for some genuine confusion should a second ‘Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco’ appear out of the ether….. I would then have to call myself, ‘The Artist Formerly Known as Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco’ in order to distinguish myself from the throng.
“No…. They wouldn’t be given entry to the jail in the first place would they?”
It’s pretty easy to visit people at the prison. Next time I’m in Bangkok I’d be happy for you (or anyone else) to come along if you want. My email address is [email protected].
It’s not, despite your view on the matter, illegal in Thailand to visit people in prison.
I must confess, though, that when I went to visit Da Torpedo I was denied entry. This was the only instance of me having some kind of difficulty visiting anyone.
However, what I did was give my Thai colleague a few short questions which gained at least something of an interview. http://bit.ly/nJdXYz
Here’s what she said about HRW and AI –
Q “How do you feel about the support from international human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch?”
A “I am disappointed and sad as I expected a lot from them.”
I should also point out that even if journalists and human rights workers are unable to visit the prisoners directly it is still possible to monitor conditions to a degree by speaking to relatives or support groups.
We’ve been speaking to LM prisoners, relatives, support groups and the like for the last 2years and have consistently been made aware of health problems, mistreatment etc. We’ve also seen medical reports, spoken to doctors, lawyers during that time etc. We’ve been able to glean a massive amount of information without ever stepping near the prison.
Every single one of those people said that they never had ANY contact with HRW or AI and that HRW or AI never reached out to them. We managed to find many of this contacts from our “borough in London” and found them all very approachable, eager to talk. Also nearly all of them said that hardly any foreign journalists had been in contact regarding the plight of the prisoners.
#63 Andrew Spooner , “but find Andrew Marshall (not the Scottish one) a bit limited.”……
Both Andrew Marshalls are entirely Scottish and both do excellent work in their own Pictish ways, although the kilted one from the glens is, suitably, rather more hirsute than ‘tother one ….. Do you ever actually check your facts?
“I disagree about the “not being in their power” line. Sure, a journalist might have their accreditation revoked if they report something that the authorities might not like but that’s part of the game.”
No…. They wouldn’t be given entry to the jail in the first place would they?…. So not much point in them taking that ‘250 baht ride’ is there?….. So this particular piece of sly evasion on your part in trying to side step the issue, once again, and you are failing to take responsibility for your own inaccurate, ill thought out and ludicrously declamatory statements. This is lame, even for you…..
“Who was hate-campaigned? Dan Rivers.”
As I said, so was pretty much the whole foreign media corps by extremist PAD supporters. A hate campaign you appear to be echoing here. The whole board of the FCCT (including one poster here) had LM charges leveled against them. Many have received threats. None were expelled and none were driven out. So despite the unpleasantness many have endured from extremist PAD and (although far less so) extremist pro Thaksin Red shirts…. You continue to lambast them in a way that really does have echoes of the kind of continual and often unfair targeting many actually received from the PAD….. They just can’t win according to your logic can they?.
“Who was expelled? Shawn Crispin.”
He was issued with an expulsion order under the administration of Thaksin Shinawatra. He is still here. As you may already know, Thaksin Shinawatra is no lover of the free press.
You make no fake claims of objectivity, fair enough. But do you make any fake claims that your “analysis” is an accurate picture of what is actually going on, or would it be more fair to push it into the realms of polemic, or dare one say, propaganda.
You comment on how you are willing to take on board comments from “sources” that “ring true” about certain political developments, but you insist that people provide hard evidence of anything which falls outside of the circle of light cast by your agenda.
“this article was a look at HRW/AI and a few other aspects of LM and the political prisoners.”
So the attack on HRW/AI was to be the focus, not the plight of political prisoners then?
You want to look at the concept of the “dual state”. That is an interesting issue. One which should be covered. A good place to start would be to define what you mean then look at the historical development.
Thailand has a history of state/military officials brutalising aspects of the citizenry with impunity. Below is a short and non-exhaustive list. Dates marked with “*” took place when Thaksin was in power. You already covered the issues with the Dems and the PAD two years ago, so I’ve just added comments from Dr T “to balance it up a bit”.
1973 – Killing of unarmed protesters
1976 – Killing of unarmed protesters
Late-70s – red barrel killings ~3,000
Late-70s/early-80s – anti-communist/-separatist death squads (Panlop Pinmanee, Seh Daeng)
1992 – Killing of unarmed protesters
*2003 – War on Drugs (2,600)
*2004 – Disappearance and murder of human rights lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit
*2004 – Khrue Sai mosque killing of all insurgents who some of whom were armed (80, 32 in the mosque alone)
*2004 – Tak Bai Killing of unarmed protesters (85 in one day)
2010 – Killing of unarmed protesters (90+)
Just as a reminder. Thaksin is the de facto leader and key financier of the PTP who you continually try to paint in a favourable light. Where do the brutal actions of his administration fit within your dual state theory?
It is also worth mentioning that you don’t cover the counter-insurgency in the south, and related political prisoners down there, in your article.
This, of course, is fine given that your piece deals with the establishment’s battle with Thaksin and the related supporters on both sides. But in any wider analysis of the dual state will you take into account the treatment of the ethnic Malays in the south. If any group has borne the brunt of being subject to consistent brutality of the Thai state, then it is them. That process started around 1897 or thereabouts.
If so, you may be interested in the following excerpt from a press release issued by the Justice for Peace Foundation that was issued this week.
“JPF calls on Thai Government to prevent enforced disappearances and ensure remedies for past disappearances
The Justice for Peace Foundation (JPF) today called on the Thai Government to ratify and comply with the International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances in a report which documents the enforced disappearance of 59 people from throughout Thailand.
“JPF has found that enforced disappearances take place within a broader context of state violence which is used to silence dissenting views and to eliminate suspected criminals, outside of the rule of law”, said Angkhana Neelapaijit, JPF President.
JPF has personally documented 40 incidents of enforced disappearances involving 59 people. 12 people were from northern Thailand, five from western Thailand, seven from Isaan (north east), 33 from the deep south. JPF found that men from minority ethnic groups, such as Malayu or Hill Tribe communities, are disproportionately more vulnerable to enforced disappearances. In the cases documented by JPF, 94% of the victims were male and 86% from ethnic minorities.
JPF has found that two government policies directly contributed to increasing enforced disappearances in Thailand: the highly militarized counter-insurgency approach adopted in southern Thailand by various governments and the War on Narcotic Drugs beginning in 2003. In addition to these two policies, JPF has found that particular categories of people are vulnerable to enforced disappearances throughout Thailand. These are: (i) people with close relationships with officials and /or come into conflict with officials; (ii) activists engaged in human rights, political or corruption activism; (iii) witnesses of crimes or human rights violations; and (iv) migrants.”
You say AI/HRW have been a complete failure in Thailand. So, for the sake of argument, say they have been a failure over the last two years (your argument not mine), has all of their other work been a failure. Again looking to the South, AI/HRW along with ICJ, JPF and other NGOs tracked down all the illegal detention and torture sites in the south (I think found 100 give or take a few) and brought to light the enforced disappearances, extra-judicial killings, torture, summary arrests. They dealt with issues such as Tak Bai, Khrue Sai, the Rohingya, the War on Drugs, they condemned violence from the police, military, and both red- and yellow-short protesters over the past few years. Has all of that been a failure?
Again, if you want to look at the vagaries of Thailand’s dual state, then you really have to go South. One does hope that the Yawi-speaking muslims aren’t so oppressed that they don’t even get a foot-up into the dual state.
You have summed up the whole situation about women in Malaysia comprehensively. Please keep writing for women rights and freedom in Malaysia. Malaysian must rid themselves of this patriarchal mentality. One should also examine the ideology that drives this mentality in the Malaysian Society.
Andrew Spooner “the Bangkok foreign media-corps, in the main, refuse to point out the restrictions they work under when reporting”
How do you suggest they do it? Perhaps ‘blog’ type pieces in the Economist’s Banyan or the Guardian’s Comment is Free? A mostly empty space with a sentence explaining that a story about the Thailand’s monarchy was meant to appear here? A stock disclaimer with something about 112 in any piece that might want to mention the monarchy in any way?
Trouble with the last method is that it just ends up as a form of ‘tagging’ – journalists work under so many restrictions that you could devise more and more tags and wise crackers will soon be asking why don’t you just not bother writing the story and simply use a series of tags instead?
Or to borrow from Not the Nation: “our editors removed the following phrases: “when the leaf finally falls from the tree”, “whispers behind the wall” and “Lady Macbeth”, as well as all metaphors referring to death, generational succession, natural transformation, females in power, sibling preference, hidden corridors of power, short-sightedness, immaturity, organized systems of belief, or things happening that lead invariably to other things.
And I think you’re suggesting that journalists based in Thailand are not that afraid of 112 – ie the long stretch behind bars – but they’re more concerned with the visa troubles – am I correct in this interpretation?
Or might these journalists simply not want to always connect the dots all the way to the palace, in the way you seem motivated to always bring AI/HRW into so many discussions?
Come on Abhisit and Yingluck – – Get together on this one. Get to work on, together really work on, amending………………………..
Vichai, don’t get your hopes up, I think this is the type of unity we are going to see.
I am more interested to see/hear PM Yingluck’s speech, in English of course, to the Aussie people. Has she polished her grammar and diction yet? I am crossing my fingers Yingluck does not humiliate herself again as she did atrociously at last year’s Davos event.
Andrew Spooner, you’re at it again: “Who was hate-campaigned? Dan Rivers. Who was expelled? Shawn Crispin.”
Could you pad the list out some more please. Your phrase used the simple tense, which implies some regularity. Your list will have to start back at one as Crispin was not expelled – see the piece by Saksith Saiyasombut from three weeks ago and you might be convinced your rhetoric is empty, again.
Ohn’s concern for the Kachin of course is urgent and immediate as internal peace is something a country cannot possibly do without for any kind of progress including the implementation of the so-called democratic reforms.
Like Ohn it cannot have escaped the notice of anyone closely following recent events in Burma several currents of popular struggle which may converge in due course as both the govt and parliamentary opposition (should we call them loyal opposition now, protecting and defending the constitution?) are rather preoccupied with getting on with the business of, well, getting more business.
With students and monks waiting in the wings each group harbouring resentment over unresolved issues, if addressing the grievances of the army rank and file also remains a low priority, the prophesy of the three sons may yet be fulfilled.
Yes, this article was a look at HRW/AI and a few other aspects ofLM and the political prisoners. I make no bones about that. I particularly wanted to look at the role of the “dual state” something which a lot of people recognise as a fair analysis but which nobody wants to acknowledge much. In my opinion these aspects have not had the coverage they might’ve and I wanted to balance that up a little bit.
In terms of the dual state I have heard it from several sources that the military, in alliance with the Dems and PAD, have been the main driving force behind ramping up LM over the last few years. It’s hard to prove but it certainly “rings true”. I’ve also heard from several sources that the army are behind the hate campaigns run by the likes of Social Sanctions etc. Again hard to prove but it makes sense. And I actually think AI and HRW have now been co-opted into the “dual state” in a supporting role. Given Ben Zawacki’s pro-royalist comments and collusions with the Democrat Party govt and Sunai’s pro-coup, pro-army and anti-Thaksin comments – comments, by the way, which he has never fully explained – I think there is some evidence of that. I also remember Sunai Phasuk – on the day a group of Red Shirts were handed down incredibly draconian prison sentences on obviously trumped up charges – circulating clearly doctored photos of flood aid toilets and claiming, without any other evidence, that they pointed to some form of Pheu Thai corruption. So much for human rights when you’ve got a political agenda, eh? And Thongchai’s thoughts on AI and HRW are damning and rightly so. They’ve been huge failures in Thailand.
The problem with AI and HRW is that they appear duplicitously politicised, refuse to explain themselves and are completely dismissive of any criticism. It’s not a good combination and they have lost the trust of the very people they are supposed to help – the victims of human rights abuses’ in Thailand.
Do I have an agenda? Sure. Do I attempt to hide that behind fake claims of objectivity? No. You can take or leave my work.
Can you point me to examples of where Thailand’s resident foreign media corps have mentioned the restrictions they routinely work under? For example that they can’t really write about the monarchy or visit and interview lese majeste prisoners for fear of having their accreditation taken from them. It’s pretty common for journalists to state that when reporting from places where restrictions have been imposed. I seriously can;t remember any mainstream foreign media doing that even though, as you and Nick go to great lengths to explain, everybody seems very aware of these restrictions.
I disagree about the “not being in their power” line. Sure, a journalist might have their accreditation revoked if they report something that the authorities might not like but that’s part of the game. If journalists just kowtowed to the authorities all the time then they’d not being holding power to account. So it’s the personal choice of the journalist involved – is accreditation, a visa to live in Bangkok etc more important than exposing an injustice and attempting to prevent human rights abuses? I guess it depends on where your own personal principles start and end.
And yeah, I agree some people do some very interesting work. That’s why I said “most” and not all. Although I still stand by my “most” comment.
I like some of Nick’s work, agree with you about Nirmal but find Andrew Marshall (not the Scottish one) a bit limited. And although he doesn’t report on politics much I admire and respect Andrew Drummond even though I realise he’s not everyone’s cup of tea.
In the Thai press I think Khao Sod and Matichon do some interesting work as well as does Voice TV. In fact I think if some of these outlets’ reporting was translated into English it would be a very interesting development. I think the Nation, Post are almost pure propaganda now and there is not much balance in how Thailand is reported in the English language.
Don’t know if you’ve ever noticed but nearly all bloggers are “self-appointed” – that’s the point.
Realizing this is going to be pathologically traumatic to people, it must be stated that all Aung San Suu Kyi has done has been to put whatever Thein Sein does in good light while ignoring or covering any bad things which are the real vital issues and if there are 600 NLD’s in the Potemkin Disneyland parliament, it simply means 600 of them work for the military, that’s all.
There is dearth of knowledge about where NLD is going, if they know themselves, whether they have any concept of what they think the country should be, assuming they have some idea except what is fed by the various mostly foreign and local “advisers” and what really they think of what people might perhaps want. No listening to the people has been conducted, by anyone except a pale sample by the 88 groups now.
Even though Mandela who is still alive and Havel , dead, are groomed and lionised for purpose and guided by the”West” and are/ were really collaborators, they do seem to have some idea what they want, misguided may be.
This high drama Burmese play is like playing chess with a 3 year old.
Transformation of peaceful, productive- in social, religious, cultural and moral ways as well as food (organic, all of it)and financial way- rural lives into regimented, trapped, industrialization complete with work/ strike cycles, and forced urbanization is a model only the pathologically deranged would crave for.
Thein Sein/ Aung San Suu Kyi government will meet resistance all the way.
And also Andrew ……..”Those that do push the boundaries are soon expelled or hate-campaigned.”
Which accredited foreign correspondent suffered this fate? Unless you are referring to the whole board of the FCCT and the LM charges leveled against them by shady agents for extreme forces most likely allied to the PAD?… It is true that there is real hatred for foreign journalists from extreme right wing elements in Thailand…. An unpleasantness you seem to echo with your own dissaproval for professional media workers doing their best to report under sometimes difficult circumstances.
Come on Abhisit and Yingluck – – Get together on this one. Get to work on, together really work on, amending the oppressive and regressive Thai Lese Majeste law. If Abhisit & Yingluck will join efforts in this LM law amendment, that my friends is the beginning of UNITY by addressing an unjust law, ergo JUSTICE!
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Human rights and lese majeste
@#68: There’s a better list of the state’s remarkable capacity for murdering its own people: http://thaipoliticalprisoners.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/60-years-of-oppression-in-thailand.pdf
That file is nicked from Time Up Thailand. It states: “since 1947, of close to 11 000 people who, in one way or other, were assassinated in their struggle for democratic representation. For six decades the power elite in Thailand has done all it can to cover-up the trail of extra-judicial political killing it oversees with impunity, and it must be understood that the figure of 11 000 is probably less than half, or even only one third, of the actual level of sacrifice.”
Human rights and lese majeste
# 72 Andrew Spooner
“It’s not, despite your view on the matter, illegal in Thailand to visit people in prison.”
Indeed …. Nor was that the point as you very well know. And I have visited many of them myself in both Bang Kwang and Klong Prem. But as you have already pointed out, this is a rather more complex issue when visiting LM accused prisoners especially if one is a journalist with that designation recorded in one’s passport. Yet more side stepping Andrew?
“I should also point out that even if journalists and human rights workers are unable to visit the prisoners directly it is still possible to monitor conditions to a degree by speaking to relatives or support groups.”
Yes… Are you suggesting you are the only person who has ever done this?
“and have consistently been made aware of health problems, mistreatment etc. ”
Good. Well done.
“Also nearly all of them said that hardly any foreign journalists had been in contact regarding the plight of the prisoners.”
Just because your source is not another’s source, does not mean that another does not have a source. Nor was that your original gripe when delivering your ill informed ‘250 baht ride’ swipe at the foreign press…. As with all your arguments, this particular argument is subject to ever changing ‘shift’ as you are challenged on it, or asked to stand by it.
#73 “no real harm done.”
None at all…. Although in my experience implying that a Scotsman is English is about as risky as trying to snog an angry hippopotamus…. And lets face it, we have all tried to do that on the odd occasion……
#74 “There’s just something about the tone of your writing that makes me think you are and I wouldn’t want to have the wrong impression.”
I am Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco to exactly the same degree that you are ‘Pro Democracy John Smith’ or the second ‘Asian Journo’…… As I am sure you know some spineless buffoon took it upon themselves, of late, to take advantage of the intellectual hospitality of Messrs Farrelly and Walker to assume the names of other posters and then demean any possible debate by attempting to score silly points with endless sweaty bla bla under their cuckooed names….. Admittedly ‘Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco’ is an exceedingly common name, so there is still room for some genuine confusion should a second ‘Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco’ appear out of the ether….. I would then have to call myself, ‘The Artist Formerly Known as Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco’ in order to distinguish myself from the throng.
Human rights and lese majeste
Orinico
I’m just taking your advice and doing some fact-checking and wanted to find out if you are actually, in fact, Dan White?
There’s just something about the tone of your writing that makes me think you are and I wouldn’t want to have the wrong impression.
Any thoughts?
Human rights and lese majeste
Orinico
Apologies – I never knew the other Andrew Marshall (not the Singapore one) was Scottish as well.
Thanks for the information.
However, you were still able to work out which one I was referring to so no real harm done.
Human rights and lese majeste
Orinico
“No…. They wouldn’t be given entry to the jail in the first place would they?”
It’s pretty easy to visit people at the prison. Next time I’m in Bangkok I’d be happy for you (or anyone else) to come along if you want. My email address is [email protected].
It’s not, despite your view on the matter, illegal in Thailand to visit people in prison.
I must confess, though, that when I went to visit Da Torpedo I was denied entry. This was the only instance of me having some kind of difficulty visiting anyone.
However, what I did was give my Thai colleague a few short questions which gained at least something of an interview. http://bit.ly/nJdXYz
Here’s what she said about HRW and AI –
Q “How do you feel about the support from international human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch?”
A “I am disappointed and sad as I expected a lot from them.”
I should also point out that even if journalists and human rights workers are unable to visit the prisoners directly it is still possible to monitor conditions to a degree by speaking to relatives or support groups.
We’ve been speaking to LM prisoners, relatives, support groups and the like for the last 2years and have consistently been made aware of health problems, mistreatment etc. We’ve also seen medical reports, spoken to doctors, lawyers during that time etc. We’ve been able to glean a massive amount of information without ever stepping near the prison.
Every single one of those people said that they never had ANY contact with HRW or AI and that HRW or AI never reached out to them. We managed to find many of this contacts from our “borough in London” and found them all very approachable, eager to talk. Also nearly all of them said that hardly any foreign journalists had been in contact regarding the plight of the prisoners.
Human rights and lese majeste
Greg
Thanks for your comments on the South.
There are something other details about the South and the War on Drugs I’d love to write about but due to reporting restrictions I am unable to do so.
(Jon Wright – I think that’s how you do it).
Human rights and lese majeste
#63 Andrew Spooner , “but find Andrew Marshall (not the Scottish one) a bit limited.”……
Both Andrew Marshalls are entirely Scottish and both do excellent work in their own Pictish ways, although the kilted one from the glens is, suitably, rather more hirsute than ‘tother one ….. Do you ever actually check your facts?
Human rights and lese majeste
#63 Andrew Spooner
“I disagree about the “not being in their power” line. Sure, a journalist might have their accreditation revoked if they report something that the authorities might not like but that’s part of the game.”
No…. They wouldn’t be given entry to the jail in the first place would they?…. So not much point in them taking that ‘250 baht ride’ is there?….. So this particular piece of sly evasion on your part in trying to side step the issue, once again, and you are failing to take responsibility for your own inaccurate, ill thought out and ludicrously declamatory statements. This is lame, even for you…..
“Who was hate-campaigned? Dan Rivers.”
As I said, so was pretty much the whole foreign media corps by extremist PAD supporters. A hate campaign you appear to be echoing here. The whole board of the FCCT (including one poster here) had LM charges leveled against them. Many have received threats. None were expelled and none were driven out. So despite the unpleasantness many have endured from extremist PAD and (although far less so) extremist pro Thaksin Red shirts…. You continue to lambast them in a way that really does have echoes of the kind of continual and often unfair targeting many actually received from the PAD….. They just can’t win according to your logic can they?.
“Who was expelled? Shawn Crispin.”
He was issued with an expulsion order under the administration of Thaksin Shinawatra. He is still here. As you may already know, Thaksin Shinawatra is no lover of the free press.
Human rights and lese majeste
Andrew
What is your agenda then?
You make no fake claims of objectivity, fair enough. But do you make any fake claims that your “analysis” is an accurate picture of what is actually going on, or would it be more fair to push it into the realms of polemic, or dare one say, propaganda.
You comment on how you are willing to take on board comments from “sources” that “ring true” about certain political developments, but you insist that people provide hard evidence of anything which falls outside of the circle of light cast by your agenda.
“this article was a look at HRW/AI and a few other aspects of LM and the political prisoners.”
So the attack on HRW/AI was to be the focus, not the plight of political prisoners then?
You want to look at the concept of the “dual state”. That is an interesting issue. One which should be covered. A good place to start would be to define what you mean then look at the historical development.
Thailand has a history of state/military officials brutalising aspects of the citizenry with impunity. Below is a short and non-exhaustive list. Dates marked with “*” took place when Thaksin was in power. You already covered the issues with the Dems and the PAD two years ago, so I’ve just added comments from Dr T “to balance it up a bit”.
1973 – Killing of unarmed protesters
1976 – Killing of unarmed protesters
Late-70s – red barrel killings ~3,000
Late-70s/early-80s – anti-communist/-separatist death squads (Panlop Pinmanee, Seh Daeng)
1992 – Killing of unarmed protesters
*2003 – War on Drugs (2,600)
*2004 – Disappearance and murder of human rights lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit
*2004 – Khrue Sai mosque killing of all insurgents who some of whom were armed (80, 32 in the mosque alone)
*2004 – Tak Bai Killing of unarmed protesters (85 in one day)
2010 – Killing of unarmed protesters (90+)
Just as a reminder. Thaksin is the de facto leader and key financier of the PTP who you continually try to paint in a favourable light. Where do the brutal actions of his administration fit within your dual state theory?
It is also worth mentioning that you don’t cover the counter-insurgency in the south, and related political prisoners down there, in your article.
This, of course, is fine given that your piece deals with the establishment’s battle with Thaksin and the related supporters on both sides. But in any wider analysis of the dual state will you take into account the treatment of the ethnic Malays in the south. If any group has borne the brunt of being subject to consistent brutality of the Thai state, then it is them. That process started around 1897 or thereabouts.
If so, you may be interested in the following excerpt from a press release issued by the Justice for Peace Foundation that was issued this week.
“JPF calls on Thai Government to prevent enforced disappearances and ensure remedies for past disappearances
The Justice for Peace Foundation (JPF) today called on the Thai Government to ratify and comply with the International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances in a report which documents the enforced disappearance of 59 people from throughout Thailand.
“JPF has found that enforced disappearances take place within a broader context of state violence which is used to silence dissenting views and to eliminate suspected criminals, outside of the rule of law”, said Angkhana Neelapaijit, JPF President.
JPF has personally documented 40 incidents of enforced disappearances involving 59 people. 12 people were from northern Thailand, five from western Thailand, seven from Isaan (north east), 33 from the deep south. JPF found that men from minority ethnic groups, such as Malayu or Hill Tribe communities, are disproportionately more vulnerable to enforced disappearances. In the cases documented by JPF, 94% of the victims were male and 86% from ethnic minorities.
JPF has found that two government policies directly contributed to increasing enforced disappearances in Thailand: the highly militarized counter-insurgency approach adopted in southern Thailand by various governments and the War on Narcotic Drugs beginning in 2003. In addition to these two policies, JPF has found that particular categories of people are vulnerable to enforced disappearances throughout Thailand. These are: (i) people with close relationships with officials and /or come into conflict with officials; (ii) activists engaged in human rights, political or corruption activism; (iii) witnesses of crimes or human rights violations; and (iv) migrants.”
You say AI/HRW have been a complete failure in Thailand. So, for the sake of argument, say they have been a failure over the last two years (your argument not mine), has all of their other work been a failure. Again looking to the South, AI/HRW along with ICJ, JPF and other NGOs tracked down all the illegal detention and torture sites in the south (I think found 100 give or take a few) and brought to light the enforced disappearances, extra-judicial killings, torture, summary arrests. They dealt with issues such as Tak Bai, Khrue Sai, the Rohingya, the War on Drugs, they condemned violence from the police, military, and both red- and yellow-short protesters over the past few years. Has all of that been a failure?
Again, if you want to look at the vagaries of Thailand’s dual state, then you really have to go South. One does hope that the Yawi-speaking muslims aren’t so oppressed that they don’t even get a foot-up into the dual state.
Ambiga and the fate of women leaders in Malaysia
Dahlia
You have summed up the whole situation about women in Malaysia comprehensively. Please keep writing for women rights and freedom in Malaysia. Malaysian must rid themselves of this patriarchal mentality. One should also examine the ideology that drives this mentality in the Malaysian Society.
Best Wishes.
Human rights and lese majeste
Andrew Spooner “the Bangkok foreign media-corps, in the main, refuse to point out the restrictions they work under when reporting”
How do you suggest they do it? Perhaps ‘blog’ type pieces in the Economist’s Banyan or the Guardian’s Comment is Free? A mostly empty space with a sentence explaining that a story about the Thailand’s monarchy was meant to appear here? A stock disclaimer with something about 112 in any piece that might want to mention the monarchy in any way?
Trouble with the last method is that it just ends up as a form of ‘tagging’ – journalists work under so many restrictions that you could devise more and more tags and wise crackers will soon be asking why don’t you just not bother writing the story and simply use a series of tags instead?
Or to borrow from Not the Nation: “our editors removed the following phrases: “when the leaf finally falls from the tree”, “whispers behind the wall” and “Lady Macbeth”, as well as all metaphors referring to death, generational succession, natural transformation, females in power, sibling preference, hidden corridors of power, short-sightedness, immaturity, organized systems of belief, or things happening that lead invariably to other things.
And I think you’re suggesting that journalists based in Thailand are not that afraid of 112 – ie the long stretch behind bars – but they’re more concerned with the visa troubles – am I correct in this interpretation?
Or might these journalists simply not want to always connect the dots all the way to the palace, in the way you seem motivated to always bring AI/HRW into so many discussions?
Human rights and lese majeste
Come on Abhisit and Yingluck – – Get together on this one. Get to work on, together really work on, amending………………………..
Vichai, don’t get your hopes up, I think this is the type of unity we are going to see.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/295659/democrats-back-pad-rally
Video on PM Yingluck’s Australia visit
I am more interested to see/hear PM Yingluck’s speech, in English of course, to the Aussie people. Has she polished her grammar and diction yet? I am crossing my fingers Yingluck does not humiliate herself again as she did atrociously at last year’s Davos event.
Human rights and lese majeste
Andrew Spooner, you’re at it again: “Who was hate-campaigned? Dan Rivers. Who was expelled? Shawn Crispin.”
Could you pad the list out some more please. Your phrase used the simple tense, which implies some regularity. Your list will have to start back at one as Crispin was not expelled – see the piece by Saksith Saiyasombut from three weeks ago and you might be convinced your rhetoric is empty, again.
Thant Myint-U on Yangon
Ohn’s concern for the Kachin of course is urgent and immediate as internal peace is something a country cannot possibly do without for any kind of progress including the implementation of the so-called democratic reforms.
Like Ohn it cannot have escaped the notice of anyone closely following recent events in Burma several currents of popular struggle which may converge in due course as both the govt and parliamentary opposition (should we call them loyal opposition now, protecting and defending the constitution?) are rather preoccupied with getting on with the business of, well, getting more business.
We have not only the ongoing candlelight protests (who by proxy are protesting against the Shwe Gas pipeline) but striking workers and farmers hundreds of acres of whose land are being confiscated by foreign and crony business concerns in collusion with or even disregarding the authorities.
With students and monks waiting in the wings each group harbouring resentment over unresolved issues, if addressing the grievances of the army rank and file also remains a low priority, the prophesy of the three sons may yet be fulfilled.
Human rights and lese majeste
Greg
Yes, this article was a look at HRW/AI and a few other aspects ofLM and the political prisoners. I make no bones about that. I particularly wanted to look at the role of the “dual state” something which a lot of people recognise as a fair analysis but which nobody wants to acknowledge much. In my opinion these aspects have not had the coverage they might’ve and I wanted to balance that up a little bit.
In terms of the dual state I have heard it from several sources that the military, in alliance with the Dems and PAD, have been the main driving force behind ramping up LM over the last few years. It’s hard to prove but it certainly “rings true”. I’ve also heard from several sources that the army are behind the hate campaigns run by the likes of Social Sanctions etc. Again hard to prove but it makes sense. And I actually think AI and HRW have now been co-opted into the “dual state” in a supporting role. Given Ben Zawacki’s pro-royalist comments and collusions with the Democrat Party govt and Sunai’s pro-coup, pro-army and anti-Thaksin comments – comments, by the way, which he has never fully explained – I think there is some evidence of that. I also remember Sunai Phasuk – on the day a group of Red Shirts were handed down incredibly draconian prison sentences on obviously trumped up charges – circulating clearly doctored photos of flood aid toilets and claiming, without any other evidence, that they pointed to some form of Pheu Thai corruption. So much for human rights when you’ve got a political agenda, eh? And Thongchai’s thoughts on AI and HRW are damning and rightly so. They’ve been huge failures in Thailand.
The problem with AI and HRW is that they appear duplicitously politicised, refuse to explain themselves and are completely dismissive of any criticism. It’s not a good combination and they have lost the trust of the very people they are supposed to help – the victims of human rights abuses’ in Thailand.
Do I have an agenda? Sure. Do I attempt to hide that behind fake claims of objectivity? No. You can take or leave my work.
Human rights and lese majeste
Orinico
Can you point me to examples of where Thailand’s resident foreign media corps have mentioned the restrictions they routinely work under? For example that they can’t really write about the monarchy or visit and interview lese majeste prisoners for fear of having their accreditation taken from them. It’s pretty common for journalists to state that when reporting from places where restrictions have been imposed. I seriously can;t remember any mainstream foreign media doing that even though, as you and Nick go to great lengths to explain, everybody seems very aware of these restrictions.
I disagree about the “not being in their power” line. Sure, a journalist might have their accreditation revoked if they report something that the authorities might not like but that’s part of the game. If journalists just kowtowed to the authorities all the time then they’d not being holding power to account. So it’s the personal choice of the journalist involved – is accreditation, a visa to live in Bangkok etc more important than exposing an injustice and attempting to prevent human rights abuses? I guess it depends on where your own personal principles start and end.
And yeah, I agree some people do some very interesting work. That’s why I said “most” and not all. Although I still stand by my “most” comment.
I like some of Nick’s work, agree with you about Nirmal but find Andrew Marshall (not the Scottish one) a bit limited. And although he doesn’t report on politics much I admire and respect Andrew Drummond even though I realise he’s not everyone’s cup of tea.
In the Thai press I think Khao Sod and Matichon do some interesting work as well as does Voice TV. In fact I think if some of these outlets’ reporting was translated into English it would be a very interesting development. I think the Nation, Post are almost pure propaganda now and there is not much balance in how Thailand is reported in the English language.
Don’t know if you’ve ever noticed but nearly all bloggers are “self-appointed” – that’s the point.
Who was hate-campaigned? Dan Rivers.
Who was expelled? Shawn Crispin.
Counting on the National League for Democracy
U Moe Aung,
Realizing this is going to be pathologically traumatic to people, it must be stated that all Aung San Suu Kyi has done has been to put whatever Thein Sein does in good light while ignoring or covering any bad things which are the real vital issues and if there are 600 NLD’s in the Potemkin Disneyland parliament, it simply means 600 of them work for the military, that’s all.
There is dearth of knowledge about where NLD is going, if they know themselves, whether they have any concept of what they think the country should be, assuming they have some idea except what is fed by the various mostly foreign and local “advisers” and what really they think of what people might perhaps want. No listening to the people has been conducted, by anyone except a pale sample by the 88 groups now.
Even though Mandela who is still alive and Havel , dead, are groomed and lionised for purpose and guided by the”West” and are/ were really collaborators, they do seem to have some idea what they want, misguided may be.
This high drama Burmese play is like playing chess with a 3 year old.
Transformation of peaceful, productive- in social, religious, cultural and moral ways as well as food (organic, all of it)and financial way- rural lives into regimented, trapped, industrialization complete with work/ strike cycles, and forced urbanization is a model only the pathologically deranged would crave for.
Thein Sein/ Aung San Suu Kyi government will meet resistance all the way.
Human rights and lese majeste
And also Andrew ……..”Those that do push the boundaries are soon expelled or hate-campaigned.”
Which accredited foreign correspondent suffered this fate? Unless you are referring to the whole board of the FCCT and the LM charges leveled against them by shady agents for extreme forces most likely allied to the PAD?… It is true that there is real hatred for foreign journalists from extreme right wing elements in Thailand…. An unpleasantness you seem to echo with your own dissaproval for professional media workers doing their best to report under sometimes difficult circumstances.
Human rights and lese majeste
About time! Progress!
Come on Abhisit and Yingluck – – Get together on this one. Get to work on, together really work on, amending the oppressive and regressive Thai Lese Majeste law. If Abhisit & Yingluck will join efforts in this LM law amendment, that my friends is the beginning of UNITY by addressing an unjust law, ergo JUSTICE!
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/295602/article-112-amendment-draft-submitted-to-house