Perspective is one aspect of the issue, certainly. After all, ostensibly if you can’t appreciate the validity of someone’s viewpoint (from his or her way or looking at it) then you can’t really make an impartial decision about it. However, validity does not only arise from personal viewpoint or belief, but from fact and rights. These two are sadly neglected and maligned in Thailand, and not just by those with vested interests. The unappreciative and ignorant are also guilty of proliferating abuse of the lese majeste, computer Crime Act and criminal defamation laws by shoving what they believe down the throats of others and then, adding insult to injury, intimate or plain out accuse “vile others” of asking for what they got.
There is a diametric to the Illuminati, perhaps we can call them the obscuratti, those who obscure what it to make it what they want it to be. And us the force of anti-constitutional and extrajudicial means to make sure their version stands. Some of these people are righteous, nationalistic, royalist and other ilk who feel that their perceptions are worthy of forcefully applying to others. that is the real issue here – not just being loyal or disloyal, aware or unaware, Thai or not.
Aung #11: You are so polite and polished. I admire you for that. Your reference of politeness in public however isn’t our real culture. It is in fact a propaganda nutshell perpetuated by successive governments of recent history. Burmese used to enjoy a vibrant culture way back since medieval times. Vulgarity wasn’t encouraged in both public and private but neither censored nor censured especially in the fields of artistic and literature. Certainly it wasn’t reserved only for lowly people of poor moral upbringing.
Here allow me to present a tiny piece of the great Burmese poet Salay U Ponnya (1807-1866). It was noted that one day on the road U Ponnya bumped into HRH Crown Prince Kanaung Minn (1820-1866) who was riding on a horse. The Crown Prince then asked U Ponnya to compose a poem about the immediate scene. The poet had this in his reply:
“Neatly dressed
Oh His Royal Highness
Look how you ride on royal horse
So wrong even slanted was your cock.”
[NM readers, pardon me if you are offended by explicit language used in above translation]
It was again noted that the Crown Prince couldn’t help but kept laughing to hear U Ponnya’s vivid description of his struggle on horseback, let alone to be angry with the poet for insensitive and rude language used upon him.
Bahmo Sayadaw, the celebrated monk during King Mindon’s reign, was another intellectual famous for his straight talks and razor sharp verses. Just visit following link to observe some of his literature (in Burmese).
My another recommendation is on your next trip to Burma take a coach ride up to Bagan and visit infamous Shwe-si-gon pagoda. There you can appreciate some topless Burmese girls featured in 12th century paintings. Come acknowledge that our forebears are the true people.
Finally, just like you, I do not think what Moe Aung and Ohn describe about Daw Aung San Suu Kyi are all appropriate. But that doesn’t grant someone to come up with a red flag and declare “Burmese shouldn’t say this”.
“FYI: The Cambodian government, OFFICIALLY, announced over 1m$ just in ‘lost revenue’ over this rally.”
This being announced so “OFFICIALLY” (as you put it), I’d expect that you’ll have no problem in pointing out the confirmed source for this alleged statement. Of course, it will have to be rather more substantial – and substantiated – than the hypothetical arithmetic that has been touted elsewhere…..
I do want to echo mails 112 and 113 (as well as my own what seems a long time ago when I first saw his report) in complimenting Nick for the pictures and his account of the trip and encounters. They are, amongst other things, informative and provocative.
You’re right — those two aren’t from your (now confirmed) IP. Thanks for clarifying and sorry for any confusion. This is yet another illustration of why anonymity online is a double-edged sword. Those other two comments have been deleted.
My general suggestion to New Mandala commentators is to use your real name wherever possible, and in this case I see no reason why any of you would want to hide. If you are writing about more sensitive issues (say, lese majeste in Thailand, human rights abuses in Burma, political killings in Cambodia, to pick just a few examples) then feel free to rock a fake name. But otherwise I feel it is a distraction and does nobody any credit.
Moreover, Nick Nostitz works in public, and shares his output under his own name. He takes responsibility for what he writes and produces. And he is a fair and very generous contributor to public debate. He is even prepared to discuss his work with anonymous critics, as he done countless times over the years here on New Mandala. But, given the yard hards he puts in and the risks he takes, I think it best if those who want to debate him show their faces. It is, at the very least, a sign of respect and collegiality.
“Hun Sen at least allowed a murder trial for the KR in Cambodia”
There is a lot I could say about this having covered Cambodia for nearly two decades…. But I think we would be veering rather off topic and the mods have, quite rightly, asked us to keep the thread on track… I think we should get back to the question of Nick’s reportage on the meeting between massed red shirts and Thaksin Shinawatra….
Something that is getting lost in all this is the pictures…. They are excellent. Well done Nick.
A note on ‘sympathies’…. Nick is clear about where his sympathies lie. I don’t have a problem with that since it is part of the process of transparency. As stated before, that does not impinge on his gathering of facts. I find the personal attacks on him by anonymous contributors to be distasteful…. This is the same thread on which I got ‘outed’ by a sock puppet using a phony name for actually using my real name!…. Alice just walked in through the looking glass ladies and gents…… Nick is not claiming to be infalible. Nobody is… But he is quite rightly defending his integrity in his fact gathering…. He is meticulous.
The problem with LM is that it doesn’t allow any kind of free discussion or expression of more nuanced views on the Thai monarchy so your “let’s have a poll” idea is spurious as even if people did have “different ideas” they would be too scared to express them.
The other key point about LM is that it doesn’t operate purely at the level of a legal device to protect the monarchy from a direct false accusation. It also allows prosecution for an accurate accusation.
LM is designed to strike fear and terror in anyone daring to fully discuss any aspect of the monarchy, even if they are speaking a verifiable truth.
As for childish scatological abuse, surely an institution that is universally revered, powerful and respected should be able to fend off and ignore such stuff without resorting to throwing people into prison for 50years? Where would we be if we all had the power to throw someone in prison every time a “poo joke” was made? It might be distasteful and offensive but people everywhere make such comments about the powerful as it is often the only way of releasing anger and pent up frustrations.
Thanks Nich,
Neither “Arschloch” or the “Asia Journo” in 107 are me. You can check the IPs, (unless they are my neighbors? You do know that most of us journos work in the same building, right?)
In any case, nothing wrong about being pro red, yellow, blue, pink… every person has a political opinion, even journalists. Just try not to let it influence your journalistic professionalism too much.
Just a quick answer about payments to demonstrators, to nick, as we seem to disagree on something that is truly common knowledge in Thailand.
Fact: I personally saw lines of people in the Rajprasong camps every day getting paid to be there, depending on “ranking”. Any journalist that was there knows that.
Fact: I also filmed guys that were guarding the access ramps at the airport in yellow (PAD) that were in red at Rajprasong guarding the barricades.
About the Hun Sen involvement? I agree with the ‘other Asia Journo’ about the brothel analogy… and the statement that follows.
You can’t just ignore such important ‘details’ because they don’t fit into your agenda.
Nick, you’re a nice guy, I have nothing personal against you, so please don’t attack my persona either. Be professional.
Yep, very aware of complete lack of paper trail on anything as I’ve tried to look for it several times myself.
This makes independently verifying any kind of “facts” almost impossible as everything is reduced to ephemeral rumour and hearsay or “what my source told me”.
And then when actual paper documents or hard evidence is produced no-one believes that either.
I’m also very aware that things get exaggerated and overstated, particularly if it makes someone look important.
For me, what Thaksin spent is not entirely irrelevant but there are other more interesting aspects to this rally. As you wrote here political campaigns/rallies cost a lot of money everywhere.
Teacher #21
I am a Teacher. If someone comes in after I leave for the day on Friday, writes something ‘insulting’ regarding one of the figures mentioned in Article 112, and I fail to erase the board until I come back to class on Monday morning (since I have no knowledge of what is on the board, didn’t write on the board, and unaware of certainly any 112 comments on it) am I too guilty of violating LM?
If as the teacher you are responsible to lock the classroom after hours and you intentionally leave the door open then, yes, in your scenario, you could be held to have “intentionally allowed” the insult to have been seen.
If you had locked the door and it was broken down in order to write the insult, then no, you are not intentionally allowing the insult.
A bad law, yes, but one that in the minds of many one that makes sense to try and stop such behavior.
Thanks for all the great comments. I’m really pleased to see this level of discussion.
The ending may not fit with the rest of the piece but I suppose I was explaining my concerns about Myanmar’s political future and making predictions. Whether the risk of a coup is real (constitutional or extra-constitutional) and how much depends on the relationships between those three figures both merit an article in themselves.
In terms of the comments by “independent thinker” on 2010, a cursory glance at the full results of the election shows that advance votes tipped the balance in favour of the USDP in only a relatively small number of constituencies – perhaps 30 across the country in both national and regional constituencies. However, there were obviously a lot of other dynamics going on in that election that could be defined as “fraud” and the effect of these is impossible to quantify…
Bad laws are changed by the majority of an elected Parliament. Defiance of those laws can indeed highlight the problems with them and bring about a change.
The problem with changing the LM law and Computer Crime Act is the fact that if asked if a person making a comment about the King’s (or his families) sexual pervasion or bodily functions, or the webmaster that allowed such comments to published should be punished, I have little doubt the majority of Thais would say yes.
Perhaps somebody could do a poll.
1.Should Chiranuch be punished under the current Computer Crime Act for allowing a post on her web board that was a crude obscene reference to the king and where excrement should be placed on his body? ( I have no idea what the actual comments were and nobody seems the slightest bit interested in what they actually were so I have assumed they are similar to ones I have seen currently on the Internet)
2.Should Somyot be punished under Article 112 for publishing an article in his magazine that stated the King directly ordered the shooting and killing of hundreds of Thai people in 1992?
Now, perhaps I do not associate with scholarly elite in Thailand, but I certainly work and associate with a broad spectrum of Thai middle and working class people and have done for some 10 years now and I am fairly certain that in almost every case their answer to the two questions above would be in the affirmative.
This is the problem for PTP right now. They cannot propose changing these laws, because once they do, and their voters see what in most cases is actually being prosecuted, they will not support any changes in the law and would support the prosecution of people that write and post such material.
Andrew, you can doubt the authenticity of the case I mentioned all you want and since it goes against everything you think about the prosecution of the LM cases it is not surprising.
But one only needs to some simple Google searches with the Kings name and just about any profanity or obscene word to see what is proliferating out there. Then imagine what a Thai middle aged, middle class person would think when they saw it. If they thought the site was from Thailand, many would file a complaint and want to see those responsible for it punished.
I have no doubt that you seriously disagree, but all I am trying to do is put a different perspective on the issue. I truly believe that perspective is reflective of the majority of the Thai people and therefore should not be ignored as it is so often.
I bet you don’t know just like the rest of Thai people accepted their country changing its name from Siam to Thai by a war crime Evil loser Phibun Songkram who committed war crime against humanity siding with Japan loser in WWII stealing land and temples of Cambodia. Thai people don’t even know their Thai speaking language was stolen from Tai people of Yunnan.
Hun Sen at least allowed a murder trial for the KR in Cambodia but none of Thai leader never allowed any war crime trial for Phibun Songram in Thailand and plus all Thai people made a war crime Evil Phibun Songram as a great Thai Hero while millions of innocent people in SEA and allies dying without justice.
Paper trail – are you kidding me?
Wooly fact checking?
This is a rather wooly part of the world, not the EU or the US, and on occasion you will have to rely on trusted sources as there are in many areas huge problems with transparency.
I have also, if you read the article, stated “according to my source…”.
As this same amount was independently mentioned by another high ranked source as well, i am confident enough that i can state this in my article.
Like it or not, there are areas in journalism in which you have to depend on sources you have built over years of hard work. This is not hard science.
I do not see what the fuzz is about, other than one anonymous “journo” with a grudge used this as a red herring to start a round about attack against me.
Cannot help asking you this question: what would society in the UK think if an opposition MP shouted “Heil Hitler” to mock the House Speaker and also accused him of practicing “parliamentary dictatorship”.
This is the latest amazing action by Thailand’s Democrat MPs and his name is Boonyod, a former TV newscaster. Earlier, Nat, another MP who is son of former Democrat leader Banyat Banthat-than, was caught watching pornographic clip with his hand-phone during house session. Few months back, Dem MP from Samut Sakhon became suspect in the fatal shooting of a rival provincial official. Up to now he declined police investigation by claiming house immunity.
On his Thai CV, Supachai seems to lie about the duration of his tenure as ‘managing editor’ at ScienceAsia. He seems to want to leave out the time he held the position alone – I’d be willing to speculate on his reasons for this omission.
Oh he has another vehicle for getting his hands grubby – ‘Stang Holding’. Quote: “… a private venture capital management firm established on December 22, 2004, is a joint venture between Mahidol University, Small and Medium Enterprise Development Bank of Thailand (SME Bank) and The National Innovation Agency (NIA). Stang Holding focuses on supporting scientific researches, and science & technology developments“.
I have no qualms in giving the author the benefit of the doubt for his ‘coup’ scenario loosely in the end of his assertion, However, author’s conclusion unfortunately made this whole article a ‘non-sequitur’. While I cannot say the author’s approach (including methodology) in his analysis overly complicated and old-fashioned, I have to admit that it reminds me of some Asian food served in restaurants in the Western countries, including Australia; with slight modifications to suit the targeted audience.
Going back to the commentaries on polling stats, vote swings, vote buying, election frauds and voter sentiments etcs., I would like offer a few pointers;
1) In Burma, people hardly care about government or party policies and agendas; majority follows a person or a party that they can closely identify with them. Before, it was the late Gen. Aung San as usually a ballot box with his picture would secure most votes in the good old days. It is Daw Aung San Suu Kyi at present. The point here is, majority of Myanmar population’s take on politics is a KISS.
2) Most of the voters in and around Mandalay where anti-Chinese sentiment is paramount will definitely vote for NLD every time, anytime and all the time. Mandaly is currently swamped by Kokant’s and Wa’s who are mostly China-borns, living and running businesses in the country; legal, shady or otherwise, under the umbrella of the said ethnic groups.
3) Ethnic parties will be securing their dominance in the ethnic states, where the majority of the population are ethnic, if they are allowed to operate and campaign freely and safely. And with the extremist groups like KIA diminishing soon, these activities will be seen nationwide. Both USDP and NLD are fully aware of importance of ethnic parties. They will be working hard to win the hearts and minds of the leaders of these parties, and at the same time will undoubtedly campaign for their own candidates.
4) Everyone in Burma knows the current constitution is a misnomer unless for a few who are willfully blind to the facts. The majority however wants it works for the time being as the country suffered from sanctions tremendously (Please note that some sanctions were in place since U Nu government because of his and his elected government’s socialist stands and religious views. U Nu gov used bartering system at that time), more under subsequent military rules. Unlike pre-1988 uprising years, most of the people of Myanmar, including ethnic population, now have exposure to outside world like no other times by means of oversea travels, oversea employments as engineers, health professionals, labourers, machinists, domestic assistants or ‘miscellaneous!’. And they are all very much aware of the fact that the whole world has changed pretty much and every neighbouring countries are doing ways much better. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi understands this fact and people’s will. It was one of the main reasons why she did a gigantic back flip in front of the world’s media instead of taking her stand and fight for the cause to the oblivion. And by her joining the parliament, no one can deny that it helped U Thein Sein and group achieved their immediate goal; making the constitution legitimate on the world’s stage but it is a win-win for people of Myanmar at any rate.
5) Both NLD and USDP should be working hard for rural vote in 2015 because there is a possibility that as the country develops, become stable and prospers, local issues will take priority over national interest. Both parties are well aware of the fact thus
6) The topic of 25% ‘self’-appointees in both parliaments will be a sticking point in oncoming political tug of wars. And the same can be said about the Chinese vested MyitSone Dam project. Even if these appointees remain in the parliaments on pretext national sovereignty, it will be interesting to see whether they can demonstrate the impartiality on both sides, currently being USDP and NLD and how they will sell this idea to the people of Myanmar. If, by any odd chance, they managed to achieve this goal then Myanmar Arm Forces, or Tattmadaw will be on the right track to regain its credibility as these appointee are symbolic representation of the Arm Forces.
7) Recent by-election cannot be said totally free and fair. There were independent reports of electoral irregularities, vote frauds and intimidation. But they all seemed to have little or no impact on voters and their conscious choie.
8) Come 2015, if both USDP and NLD succeed in bringing in young generation leaders it is not unlikely that there is a possibility of hang parliament. The role of the ‘self’ appointee will be the order of the day. Whether they will play the role of ‘Savior of Myanmar’ and tilt towards NLD should the occasion arises, only time will tell.
So here’s my two cents’ worth. It is not exactly a “there you go again’ but it offers an alternative to the doomsday scenarios. Why? And in ‘2012’ especially?
John Smith: The point of the charges against her is her actions as the webmaster. Knowing what the posts said doesn’t change that a bit. It is a simple point.
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Chiranuch Premchaiporn verdict (not) today
Perspective is one aspect of the issue, certainly. After all, ostensibly if you can’t appreciate the validity of someone’s viewpoint (from his or her way or looking at it) then you can’t really make an impartial decision about it. However, validity does not only arise from personal viewpoint or belief, but from fact and rights. These two are sadly neglected and maligned in Thailand, and not just by those with vested interests. The unappreciative and ignorant are also guilty of proliferating abuse of the lese majeste, computer Crime Act and criminal defamation laws by shoving what they believe down the throats of others and then, adding insult to injury, intimate or plain out accuse “vile others” of asking for what they got.
There is a diametric to the Illuminati, perhaps we can call them the obscuratti, those who obscure what it to make it what they want it to be. And us the force of anti-constitutional and extrajudicial means to make sure their version stands. Some of these people are righteous, nationalistic, royalist and other ilk who feel that their perceptions are worthy of forcefully applying to others. that is the real issue here – not just being loyal or disloyal, aware or unaware, Thai or not.
The elephant and Myanmar politics
Aung #11: You are so polite and polished. I admire you for that. Your reference of politeness in public however isn’t our real culture. It is in fact a propaganda nutshell perpetuated by successive governments of recent history. Burmese used to enjoy a vibrant culture way back since medieval times. Vulgarity wasn’t encouraged in both public and private but neither censored nor censured especially in the fields of artistic and literature. Certainly it wasn’t reserved only for lowly people of poor moral upbringing.
Here allow me to present a tiny piece of the great Burmese poet Salay U Ponnya (1807-1866). It was noted that one day on the road U Ponnya bumped into HRH Crown Prince Kanaung Minn (1820-1866) who was riding on a horse. The Crown Prince then asked U Ponnya to compose a poem about the immediate scene. The poet had this in his reply:
сА▒сАЧсАмсАДсА╣сА╕сА▒сАРсАмсА╣сАЫсАЪсА╣сАЖсАДсА╣
сАЪсАесА╣сАХсАлсАШсАнсА▒сАРсАмсАДсА╣сА╕сБЛ
сА╗сАЩсАДсА╣сА╕сА▒сАХсБЪсААсАпсАнсАЪсА╣сА▒сАРсАмсА╣сАЕсАосА╕сАРсАЪсА╣
сАЬсАосА╕сААсАРсА▒сАЕсАмсАДсА╣сА╕сБЛ
“Neatly dressed
Oh His Royal Highness
Look how you ride on royal horse
So wrong even slanted was your cock.”
[NM readers, pardon me if you are offended by explicit language used in above translation]
It was again noted that the Crown Prince couldn’t help but kept laughing to hear U Ponnya’s vivid description of his struggle on horseback, let alone to be angry with the poet for insensitive and rude language used upon him.
Bahmo Sayadaw, the celebrated monk during King Mindon’s reign, was another intellectual famous for his straight talks and razor sharp verses. Just visit following link to observe some of his literature (in Burmese).
http://mmcybermedia.com/community/index.php?topic=19155.0
My another recommendation is on your next trip to Burma take a coach ride up to Bagan and visit infamous Shwe-si-gon pagoda. There you can appreciate some topless Burmese girls featured in 12th century paintings. Come acknowledge that our forebears are the true people.
Finally, just like you, I do not think what Moe Aung and Ohn describe about Daw Aung San Suu Kyi are all appropriate. But that doesn’t grant someone to come up with a red flag and declare “Burmese shouldn’t say this”.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Asia Journo (c102):
“FYI: The Cambodian government, OFFICIALLY, announced over 1m$ just in ‘lost revenue’ over this rally.”
This being announced so “OFFICIALLY” (as you put it), I’d expect that you’ll have no problem in pointing out the confirmed source for this alleged statement. Of course, it will have to be rather more substantial – and substantiated – than the hypothetical arithmetic that has been touted elsewhere…..
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
I do want to echo mails 112 and 113 (as well as my own what seems a long time ago when I first saw his report) in complimenting Nick for the pictures and his account of the trip and encounters. They are, amongst other things, informative and provocative.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Thanks “Asia Journo”,
You’re right — those two aren’t from your (now confirmed) IP. Thanks for clarifying and sorry for any confusion. This is yet another illustration of why anonymity online is a double-edged sword. Those other two comments have been deleted.
My general suggestion to New Mandala commentators is to use your real name wherever possible, and in this case I see no reason why any of you would want to hide. If you are writing about more sensitive issues (say, lese majeste in Thailand, human rights abuses in Burma, political killings in Cambodia, to pick just a few examples) then feel free to rock a fake name. But otherwise I feel it is a distraction and does nobody any credit.
Moreover, Nick Nostitz works in public, and shares his output under his own name. He takes responsibility for what he writes and produces. And he is a fair and very generous contributor to public debate. He is even prepared to discuss his work with anonymous critics, as he done countless times over the years here on New Mandala. But, given the yard hards he puts in and the risks he takes, I think it best if those who want to debate him show their faces. It is, at the very least, a sign of respect and collegiality.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#110 Chivan
“Hun Sen at least allowed a murder trial for the KR in Cambodia”
There is a lot I could say about this having covered Cambodia for nearly two decades…. But I think we would be veering rather off topic and the mods have, quite rightly, asked us to keep the thread on track… I think we should get back to the question of Nick’s reportage on the meeting between massed red shirts and Thaksin Shinawatra….
Something that is getting lost in all this is the pictures…. They are excellent. Well done Nick.
A note on ‘sympathies’…. Nick is clear about where his sympathies lie. I don’t have a problem with that since it is part of the process of transparency. As stated before, that does not impinge on his gathering of facts. I find the personal attacks on him by anonymous contributors to be distasteful…. This is the same thread on which I got ‘outed’ by a sock puppet using a phony name for actually using my real name!…. Alice just walked in through the looking glass ladies and gents…… Nick is not claiming to be infalible. Nobody is… But he is quite rightly defending his integrity in his fact gathering…. He is meticulous.
Chiranuch Premchaiporn verdict (not) today
John Smith
The problem with LM is that it doesn’t allow any kind of free discussion or expression of more nuanced views on the Thai monarchy so your “let’s have a poll” idea is spurious as even if people did have “different ideas” they would be too scared to express them.
The other key point about LM is that it doesn’t operate purely at the level of a legal device to protect the monarchy from a direct false accusation. It also allows prosecution for an accurate accusation.
LM is designed to strike fear and terror in anyone daring to fully discuss any aspect of the monarchy, even if they are speaking a verifiable truth.
As for childish scatological abuse, surely an institution that is universally revered, powerful and respected should be able to fend off and ignore such stuff without resorting to throwing people into prison for 50years? Where would we be if we all had the power to throw someone in prison every time a “poo joke” was made? It might be distasteful and offensive but people everywhere make such comments about the powerful as it is often the only way of releasing anger and pent up frustrations.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Thanks Nich,
Neither “Arschloch” or the “Asia Journo” in 107 are me. You can check the IPs, (unless they are my neighbors? You do know that most of us journos work in the same building, right?)
In any case, nothing wrong about being pro red, yellow, blue, pink… every person has a political opinion, even journalists. Just try not to let it influence your journalistic professionalism too much.
Just a quick answer about payments to demonstrators, to nick, as we seem to disagree on something that is truly common knowledge in Thailand.
Fact: I personally saw lines of people in the Rajprasong camps every day getting paid to be there, depending on “ranking”. Any journalist that was there knows that.
Fact: I also filmed guys that were guarding the access ramps at the airport in yellow (PAD) that were in red at Rajprasong guarding the barricades.
About the Hun Sen involvement? I agree with the ‘other Asia Journo’ about the brothel analogy… and the statement that follows.
You can’t just ignore such important ‘details’ because they don’t fit into your agenda.
Nick, you’re a nice guy, I have nothing personal against you, so please don’t attack my persona either. Be professional.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Nick
Yep, very aware of complete lack of paper trail on anything as I’ve tried to look for it several times myself.
This makes independently verifying any kind of “facts” almost impossible as everything is reduced to ephemeral rumour and hearsay or “what my source told me”.
And then when actual paper documents or hard evidence is produced no-one believes that either.
I’m also very aware that things get exaggerated and overstated, particularly if it makes someone look important.
For me, what Thaksin spent is not entirely irrelevant but there are other more interesting aspects to this rally. As you wrote here political campaigns/rallies cost a lot of money everywhere.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Thanks to “Arschloch” and “Asia Journo” for this effort:
The similarity in IP addresses is striking. New Mandala actively discourages the use of multiple, anonymous monikers.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Chiranuch Premchaiporn verdict (not) today
Teacher #21
I am a Teacher. If someone comes in after I leave for the day on Friday, writes something ‘insulting’ regarding one of the figures mentioned in Article 112, and I fail to erase the board until I come back to class on Monday morning (since I have no knowledge of what is on the board, didn’t write on the board, and unaware of certainly any 112 comments on it) am I too guilty of violating LM?
If as the teacher you are responsible to lock the classroom after hours and you intentionally leave the door open then, yes, in your scenario, you could be held to have “intentionally allowed” the insult to have been seen.
If you had locked the door and it was broken down in order to write the insult, then no, you are not intentionally allowing the insult.
A bad law, yes, but one that in the minds of many one that makes sense to try and stop such behavior.
Analysis of Myanmar’s NLD landslide
Thanks for all the great comments. I’m really pleased to see this level of discussion.
The ending may not fit with the rest of the piece but I suppose I was explaining my concerns about Myanmar’s political future and making predictions. Whether the risk of a coup is real (constitutional or extra-constitutional) and how much depends on the relationships between those three figures both merit an article in themselves.
In terms of the comments by “independent thinker” on 2010, a cursory glance at the full results of the election shows that advance votes tipped the balance in favour of the USDP in only a relatively small number of constituencies – perhaps 30 across the country in both national and regional constituencies. However, there were obviously a lot of other dynamics going on in that election that could be defined as “fraud” and the effect of these is impossible to quantify…
Chiranuch Premchaiporn verdict (not) today
Andrew S #20.
Bad laws are changed by the majority of an elected Parliament. Defiance of those laws can indeed highlight the problems with them and bring about a change.
The problem with changing the LM law and Computer Crime Act is the fact that if asked if a person making a comment about the King’s (or his families) sexual pervasion or bodily functions, or the webmaster that allowed such comments to published should be punished, I have little doubt the majority of Thais would say yes.
Perhaps somebody could do a poll.
1.Should Chiranuch be punished under the current Computer Crime Act for allowing a post on her web board that was a crude obscene reference to the king and where excrement should be placed on his body? ( I have no idea what the actual comments were and nobody seems the slightest bit interested in what they actually were so I have assumed they are similar to ones I have seen currently on the Internet)
2.Should Somyot be punished under Article 112 for publishing an article in his magazine that stated the King directly ordered the shooting and killing of hundreds of Thai people in 1992?
Now, perhaps I do not associate with scholarly elite in Thailand, but I certainly work and associate with a broad spectrum of Thai middle and working class people and have done for some 10 years now and I am fairly certain that in almost every case their answer to the two questions above would be in the affirmative.
This is the problem for PTP right now. They cannot propose changing these laws, because once they do, and their voters see what in most cases is actually being prosecuted, they will not support any changes in the law and would support the prosecution of people that write and post such material.
Andrew, you can doubt the authenticity of the case I mentioned all you want and since it goes against everything you think about the prosecution of the LM cases it is not surprising.
But one only needs to some simple Google searches with the Kings name and just about any profanity or obscene word to see what is proliferating out there. Then imagine what a Thai middle aged, middle class person would think when they saw it. If they thought the site was from Thailand, many would file a complaint and want to see those responsible for it punished.
I have no doubt that you seriously disagree, but all I am trying to do is put a different perspective on the issue. I truly believe that perspective is reflective of the majority of the Thai people and therefore should not be ignored as it is so often.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
To Dan #106
I bet you don’t know just like the rest of Thai people accepted their country changing its name from Siam to Thai by a war crime Evil loser Phibun Songkram who committed war crime against humanity siding with Japan loser in WWII stealing land and temples of Cambodia. Thai people don’t even know their Thai speaking language was stolen from Tai people of Yunnan.
Hun Sen at least allowed a murder trial for the KR in Cambodia but none of Thai leader never allowed any war crime trial for Phibun Songram in Thailand and plus all Thai people made a war crime Evil Phibun Songram as a great Thai Hero while millions of innocent people in SEA and allies dying without justice.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
“Andrew Spooner”:
Paper trail – are you kidding me?
Wooly fact checking?
This is a rather wooly part of the world, not the EU or the US, and on occasion you will have to rely on trusted sources as there are in many areas huge problems with transparency.
I have also, if you read the article, stated “according to my source…”.
As this same amount was independently mentioned by another high ranked source as well, i am confident enough that i can state this in my article.
Like it or not, there are areas in journalism in which you have to depend on sources you have built over years of hard work. This is not hard science.
I do not see what the fuzz is about, other than one anonymous “journo” with a grudge used this as a red herring to start a round about attack against me.
Boring, boring, boring…
Rama VII and Hitler
Andrew, # 11
Cannot help asking you this question: what would society in the UK think if an opposition MP shouted “Heil Hitler” to mock the House Speaker and also accused him of practicing “parliamentary dictatorship”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fD8zsKEjYc&feature=youtu.be
This is the latest amazing action by Thailand’s Democrat MPs and his name is Boonyod, a former TV newscaster. Earlier, Nat, another MP who is son of former Democrat leader Banyat Banthat-than, was caught watching pornographic clip with his hand-phone during house session. Few months back, Dem MP from Samut Sakhon became suspect in the fatal shooting of a rival provincial official. Up to now he declined police investigation by claiming house immunity.
University rankings from Chula’s perspective
On his Thai CV, Supachai seems to lie about the duration of his tenure as ‘managing editor’ at ScienceAsia. He seems to want to leave out the time he held the position alone – I’d be willing to speculate on his reasons for this omission.
Oh he has another vehicle for getting his hands grubby – ‘Stang Holding’. Quote: “… a private venture capital management firm established on December 22, 2004, is a joint venture between Mahidol University, Small and Medium Enterprise Development Bank of Thailand (SME Bank) and The National Innovation Agency (NIA). Stang Holding focuses on supporting scientific researches, and science & technology developments“.
Chiranuch Premchaiporn verdict (not) today
> “I am a Teacher. If someone comes in after I leave for the day on Friday, writes something ‘insulting’ …”
If the kid writes it on Monday morning and it’s still there on Friday afternoon, should you be looking at 50 years in jail?
Analysis of Myanmar’s NLD landslide
I have no qualms in giving the author the benefit of the doubt for his ‘coup’ scenario loosely in the end of his assertion, However, author’s conclusion unfortunately made this whole article a ‘non-sequitur’. While I cannot say the author’s approach (including methodology) in his analysis overly complicated and old-fashioned, I have to admit that it reminds me of some Asian food served in restaurants in the Western countries, including Australia; with slight modifications to suit the targeted audience.
Going back to the commentaries on polling stats, vote swings, vote buying, election frauds and voter sentiments etcs., I would like offer a few pointers;
1) In Burma, people hardly care about government or party policies and agendas; majority follows a person or a party that they can closely identify with them. Before, it was the late Gen. Aung San as usually a ballot box with his picture would secure most votes in the good old days. It is Daw Aung San Suu Kyi at present. The point here is, majority of Myanmar population’s take on politics is a KISS.
2) Most of the voters in and around Mandalay where anti-Chinese sentiment is paramount will definitely vote for NLD every time, anytime and all the time. Mandaly is currently swamped by Kokant’s and Wa’s who are mostly China-borns, living and running businesses in the country; legal, shady or otherwise, under the umbrella of the said ethnic groups.
3) Ethnic parties will be securing their dominance in the ethnic states, where the majority of the population are ethnic, if they are allowed to operate and campaign freely and safely. And with the extremist groups like KIA diminishing soon, these activities will be seen nationwide. Both USDP and NLD are fully aware of importance of ethnic parties. They will be working hard to win the hearts and minds of the leaders of these parties, and at the same time will undoubtedly campaign for their own candidates.
4) Everyone in Burma knows the current constitution is a misnomer unless for a few who are willfully blind to the facts. The majority however wants it works for the time being as the country suffered from sanctions tremendously (Please note that some sanctions were in place since U Nu government because of his and his elected government’s socialist stands and religious views. U Nu gov used bartering system at that time), more under subsequent military rules. Unlike pre-1988 uprising years, most of the people of Myanmar, including ethnic population, now have exposure to outside world like no other times by means of oversea travels, oversea employments as engineers, health professionals, labourers, machinists, domestic assistants or ‘miscellaneous!’. And they are all very much aware of the fact that the whole world has changed pretty much and every neighbouring countries are doing ways much better. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi understands this fact and people’s will. It was one of the main reasons why she did a gigantic back flip in front of the world’s media instead of taking her stand and fight for the cause to the oblivion. And by her joining the parliament, no one can deny that it helped U Thein Sein and group achieved their immediate goal; making the constitution legitimate on the world’s stage but it is a win-win for people of Myanmar at any rate.
5) Both NLD and USDP should be working hard for rural vote in 2015 because there is a possibility that as the country develops, become stable and prospers, local issues will take priority over national interest. Both parties are well aware of the fact thus
6) The topic of 25% ‘self’-appointees in both parliaments will be a sticking point in oncoming political tug of wars. And the same can be said about the Chinese vested MyitSone Dam project. Even if these appointees remain in the parliaments on pretext national sovereignty, it will be interesting to see whether they can demonstrate the impartiality on both sides, currently being USDP and NLD and how they will sell this idea to the people of Myanmar. If, by any odd chance, they managed to achieve this goal then Myanmar Arm Forces, or Tattmadaw will be on the right track to regain its credibility as these appointee are symbolic representation of the Arm Forces.
7) Recent by-election cannot be said totally free and fair. There were independent reports of electoral irregularities, vote frauds and intimidation. But they all seemed to have little or no impact on voters and their conscious choie.
8) Come 2015, if both USDP and NLD succeed in bringing in young generation leaders it is not unlikely that there is a possibility of hang parliament. The role of the ‘self’ appointee will be the order of the day. Whether they will play the role of ‘Savior of Myanmar’ and tilt towards NLD should the occasion arises, only time will tell.
So here’s my two cents’ worth. It is not exactly a “there you go again’ but it offers an alternative to the doomsday scenarios. Why? And in ‘2012’ especially?
Chiranuch Premchaiporn verdict (not) today
John Smith: The point of the charges against her is her actions as the webmaster. Knowing what the posts said doesn’t change that a bit. It is a simple point.