Not to barge in to meaningful commentary, but constant submittal of one-sided views expressed as fact don’t do a lot of good to accommodate differences of opinion or lead to meaningful constructive conclusions. For example, comment 90 is a clear opinion but expresses it all as fact. This is not logical nor defensible in and of itself. Some of it may be true, some not. We need to express opinions as such, and when stating so-called fact also need to back it up with a cited reference that can be supported by dependable, provable and as-non prejudicial as possible independent references not based on the same sources cited.
Let’s go through it here…
“Thaksin is onlyy symbol of demcracy, and most Thai love him not because of his money, but what he have done for people. Despite so many charge to him from politic opposition,military, and some elite, he still can survive, and get more powerful and can defeat any enemy.
Red Shirt was born from those injustice placed to both Thaksin and his allies, people who support him. What Red Shirt want is just justice to Thaksin and to choose their future without any hidden power, and outside influential ,and from someone behind the scene!”
1. It is arguable that MOST Thais might not love Thaksin. Where did the MOST come from?
2. The argument he is loved by people not because of his money but because of what he did for people is also a highly prejudicial conclusion. Many people may feel that Thaksin did a great deal for the Thai people, but what academic research is there to indicate why they feel this way, how many feel this way, and whether that is indeed accurate.
3. The argument the Red Shirts want justice for Thaksin (and presumably for themselves) and to choose their future without any hidden power is not going to happen, not in this life or any life anywhere. There is always massive power behind the scenes whether al la Thaksin or the Amart, etc., and that will not disappear. But the appeal of having national policies meet real needs is probably the core idea here.
Life is full of ulterior motives with even people we know well, or think we do, making decisions and taking actions that affect or do not affect each of us, and the world. Sit down at a table with people that call themselves your family or friends and start going over their individual motives for one thing or another.
Thaksin is onlyy symbol of demcracy, and most Thai love him not because of his money, but what he have done for people. Despite so many charge to him from politic opposition,military, and some elite, he still can survive, and get more powerful and can defeat any enemy.
Red Shirt was born from those injustice placed to both Thaksin and his allies, people who support him. What Red Shirt want is just justice to Thaksin and to choose their future without any hidden power, and outside influential ,and from someone behind the scene!
Interesting noting different reactions of PT in the recent by-election loss to that of the Dems when they lose a vote.
And you’re right, taking pretty photos of temples and tattoos is not the same as actually talking to the grassroots political movement that has taken shape in Thailand and is now morphing into something that is leaving Thaksin behind.
It is, as you’ve said, fascinating actually watching the wheels of history turning.
As for the Dems – in their present mode they are finished. Let’s hope they turn it around to become a proper opposition
In the long list of Dem Party reasons for losing the 2011 election (as they have every other single election in 20years) Dan forget to mention the most compelling one.
That they sent the army in to shoot unarmed civilians.
I guess that’s irrelevant to Dan as he sweats his way around Thailand.
Quickly… Cos I have to get on the road…. I don’t under estimate the growth in awareness across Thailand…. My impressions of attitudes are born of many chats with people across the country and they are exactly that…. impressions…. But they are informed impressions.
You are engaged in thorough systematic research and I find your reports fascinating.
On the last elections, PT won for a number of very good reasons….
A. People were fed up with the incompetence of the Democrat administration. Even in the Dem heartlands in the south around the rubber rich areas between Trang and Patthalung where I spent quite some time in the run up to the election people were dissatisfied with the rudderless ship that the government was, with rubber prices going down and the economy in dissatisfy. Many saw Abhisit as a good guy but also saw him as ineffectual and surrounded by the usual corrupt and menacing suspects… They won’t have voted PT, but they were not happy…. In swing areas I imagine the feeling was stronger. Thaksin still also has the aura of dynamic economic management from his days as PM when the world was booming. Whether that is justified or not I don’t know…..
B. During the election the Dems had a chance to really show and invigorated sense of ‘caring’ about the people they ask to vote for them…. Problem is they really don’t have one…. And people instead saw a disdainful collection of men and women with outmoded attitudes and an arrogant sense of entitlement…. People are wise to that now and they acted accordingly. The Dems have totally failed to clock changes and learn about how a 21st Century political party gathers and maintains support…. Their campaign was just about as bad as it could…. An own goal of stupendous incompetence and complacency….. This was far too big a landslide to be simply about Red shirts…. It took non committed swing voters in huge numbers.
C. The ‘Narak’ factor…. Thaksin has an amazing nack for short term political timing…. Putting in his own truly fresh and fragrant sister was the equivalent of fielding a panda bear…. Never under estimate the importance of ‘narak’ in Thailand….. She half convinces me she is so wholesome (‘na ka?’)….. And what makes it even more amazing is that at the time the Dems considered it an own goal…. This is populist politics at its most finely honed and skilled…. The panda won a landslide…..
Anyway…. Gotta run…. Keep up the good work big boy….
@Nick #84
“the double Democrat win in Red Shirt stronghold Pathum Thani”
It was a single win by the Dems (by a small margin), and a double loss by PTP:
Former Pheu Thai MP Sumet Rithakhani lost the PAO race by 110,974 to 214,429 votes to former PAO head Chan Phuangphet, an independent candidate…Pheu Thai candidate Somchai Rangsiwatanasak lost by 24,119 to 27,981 votes to Democrat Kiatisak Songsaeng, who will replace Mr Sumet as Constituency 5 MP
@Dan #83
By debating with us, I assume you’d like us to agree with you and see it your way. Name calling and insults directed at the listener is perhaps the worst debate technique there is to achieve that goal.
The mighty Sibeh Ah Beng, Sabai Sabai, Martino Ray, Grasshopper pop quiz team says:
Is it really as clear cut as that? Malaysians have a lot more to loose financially than any of those nations at the time of their bloody uprisings. There would have to be an unprecedented abuse of power for an uprising to occur in Malaysia. People, we feel, will be more content to lose as underachievers for longer, than lose lives. Unfortunately for proponents of change in Malaysia, there have been many precedents for society to, let’s say, built up a tolerance for corruption…
“More corruption news tonight”
“So wat mah? Always corruption”
“True. Bersih protestor probably also quite corrupt probably”
“Ya, why protest if protestor also corrupt or protest for corrupt reason?”
“Ya…”
“Got roti yet loh? Man Utd play Liverpool tonight..”
Maybe you’ll all have to wait for Bersih 3.0 or 4.0. Giving it these 2.0, 3.0 numbers etc, might send the movement the way of the failed Shah Alam iCity…
For someone who is not interested in meeting Red Shirt activists you have very strong opinions about them though… 😉
Your claims of “the vast majority” remind me of the Democrat Party’s constant claims in 2010, that only a “minority” group would try to pressure the by their party led government coalition into elections by “mob rule”, yet only to be defeated by a huge margin in the 2011 elections.
Given the close association between Red Shirts and Pueah Thai Party, and especially the post 2010 crackdown demonization of the Red Shirts by media, Democrat led government and military, their election win is quite a strong indicator that the Red Shirts and their sympathizers are not just a tiny minority. And yes, the double Democrat win in Red Shirt stronghold Pathum Thani under a weak election participation in both the by-elections and in the PAO elections is an indicator that the Pueah Thai party cannot just rest on its laurels because people will anyhow vote for them (there were, after the 2011 elections, frictions between the local Red Shirts and the Puaeh Thai Party).
Yes, i am aware how much time you spend in the field. But how much time do you spend in the villages of contemporary rural Thailand, and not just researching aspects of folkloristic Thailand?
How can you, while traveling in those areas, ignore the emergence of the Red Shirt Village Movement, for example?
Have you ever researched rural Thailand and Red Shirt involvement on local level, especially how this conflict transformed local politics through the empowerment that is a by the Red Shirts opponents often neglected factor that has transformed the sociopolitical landscape of Thailand.
Have you ever looked into the rural community radio stations and their influence in these villages?
You don’t even need to go that far – even communities in Bangkok with a high percentage of rural migrants are now politicized to a degree that has never been evident before.
And in both of these areas local Thais do what you for obvious reasons cannot do here on the net – they do discuss the monarchy institution quite openly and critically now. I live in such a community here in Bangkok. Yes, people talk a lot about their economical difficulties – as you mentioned (and of course their main topics are the normal human topics: gossip, food, etc). But in this connection these other subjects are talked and discussed about as well, as they are talked about in the home villages of these people.
And sorry, Dan, this is representative for contemporary Thailand.
Good job all the traditional Burmese elephant proverbs and sayings are partially catalogued here as the Burmeseness is nearly due it’s use-by date once the most celebrated Democracy of Burma arrives where all the academics, historians and economists are supporting the moneymen to shove down the Burmese throats of social, environmental and cultural destruction for money and integration of Burma into the decadent world which itself is moribund.
Another traditional Burmese joke involves snake. A man boasting of killing a snake 6 inch in girth and 10 foot in length was challenged again and again about the estimated length for the said girth, he eventually has to give up saying ” At this rate, my snake is going to be like a ball.”
Currently for all the tumultuous millions of people worth of adulation and support there is not a single shred of evidence that Aung San Suu Kyi has affected the day to day lives of ordinary people of Burma.
Rapes, murders, tortures, land confiscations rates went up along with water, petrol and electricity prices and no one now dare say any thing bad about the continued construction of Irrawaddy destroying dam or shameful pipe line cutting the land in halves (ShweGash).
Inane and stupid as it is, may be this big deal about 3 or 4 words is all the people’s champions could pretend to do for the good of the country even at a time Min Aung Hlaing is busy clumsily trying to kill as many Kachin as possible without a murmur of objection from any human.
If they give this up as well, hmmm… the snake is going to be like a ball. All the same the author advocating for yet further compromise with the military is rather touching.
U Moe Aung describes such phenomenon as not having political intransigence which is also applauded by all and sounds really sage and good phonetically. It used to said in Burmese Japanse ” yaw- daw- shi” as like a girl telling the Japanese soldier “Master, yaw-daw- shi”.
#82 johninbkk
“Dan, if you put no effort into learning about the red shirts other than what you heard about them on the news or other anti-TS outlets, you should question the validity of your opinions based on that information.”
I lived very near Rajaprasong throughout much of the Red shirt protest and spent quite a lot of time there. I also spend a great deal of time in what one might consider heartland red areas of Isan and the north. ….. When Rajaprasong was cleared I was in Chiang Mai and saw the reactions there as people absorbed the news. Not long after that I was based around Udon, Kalasin and Kon Kaen for a while…. Nor do I watch very much TV.
Johninkk….. You might consider getting out of Bangkok once in a while in order that you broaden your horizons. Then you could call yourself Johnintherealworld.
#78 Tarrin
“It would be more productive to talk about some hard topic and not the retailing of 1970s version of the anti liftist tale.”
I am not quite sure what you mean. Can you explain.
#83 blah blah
“He’s repetitive, boring, incredibly long-winded and unable to keep an argument together, veering from the irrational to the plain weird.”
Brand new sock puppet for a brand new day….. You certainly have energy….
@Nick #76
“articles of so-called journalists who mostly base their points also on rumor and supposition, while in the area we actually can get provable facts – in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.”
I visited the red shirt protests from 2008-2010 myself to see what they were like. Most of what I saw on the news/TV didn’t match the reality that I saw with my own eyes. Even basic facts were wrong.
Dan, if you put no effort into learning about the red shirts other than what you heard about them on the news or other anti-TS outlets, you should question the validity of your opinions based on that information.
My point is not to force you to talk about the thai royal, but to point out that the executive brach is only a minor problem in this conflict. It would be more productive to talk about some hard topic and not the retailing of 1970s version of the anti liftist tale.
“And yet again, we are stuck in the same endless, narrow and entirely fruitless discussion solely based on analysis of the elite conflict and elite machinations, completely excluding and disregarding the changing perception and position of ordinary people who in the past years became increasingly politically interested and active.”
These are two different discussions Nick…. Although interrelated… Both are valid… Historically machinations amongst elites have a habit of stifling the aspirations of ordinary people… The fact that there is a change in awareness amonsgt the populace guarantees nothing although one can only hope for postive progress…. Although you are right that there is a huge sea change in Thailand…
“in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.”
I am not interested in activists… I am interested in ordinary people living their lives grass roots or otherwise…. And as you well know I spend a great deal of time for my (non political) work across pretty much every province of this country and its neighbours often in the oddest and most obscure corners and have done for many years…. Activists are low on my list of people I consider representative.
“I am sorry, Dan, but i am rather tired of debates and discussion purely based on speculation”
Be as tired as you like Nick… A measure of speculation is part of your job too… It is part of the process of analysis and the process of how you deal with the information that you have gathered. It is not simply a recitation of facts however scrupulous in gathering them you may be.. … ‘Not seeing the wood for the trees’ is sometimes a trap you fall into in my opinion…. Although your attention to facts is what will always allow you to rejig because you are not big on wild assumptions whatever your personal views may be….
“The Siam Reap event has shown quite clearly that certain elites may want to continue business as usual, but it has shown as well that these elites nowadays are under scrutiny of their own supporters. This by itself proves that Thailand has changed to quite some degree already.”
The penny may well be dropping amongst much of the Red Shirt throng… But the point remains how much the percentage of the movement will remain mainly a platform for Thaksin as a demagogue and how large a percentage will engage in a more progressive agenda… This is something that we have discussed at length over the last year or so. It remains the moot point and comes back to where future opposition to ALL the elites, including the newer mercantile class of Thaksin et al, will come from.
“There is only a very limited number of journalists here who do bother with the grassroots angle in a systematic manner, but there are many more journalists who have very strong opinions, yet without having done almost no work whatsoever on what should be the base of our profession – working in the field. ”
I spend most of my working life in the field.
“How on earth can it happen that a photographer who is basically not interested in politics at all [me] has researched, photographed and written more on this subject matter in a place with a higher density of journalists than anywhere else in this region?”
Nick, one of the reasons I like you and why you want me to have your children is that we have a an in-common respect for those who go into the field rather than those who rely on phoners or silly chatrooms…. This is one reason I like your work…. The other is that you write well in English which is rare for someone whose first language is not English. You, however, are not the only one…..
“When will i see you sweating in the field at one or the other Red Shirt, or Yellow Shirt event? For somebody who has such strong opinions, you physical presence is quite elusive, or have you, by chance, reached a stage of omniscience? ”
You can see me sweating in small villages and obscure towns across Thailand, Laos and Cambodia for about 6 months of any given year if you want to jump on the back of the bike and hang out in Mae Hong Son, Beung Khan, Mukdahan, Sangkhlaburi, Chainat, Trang , Surin, Ratchaburi etc etc ….. I have no interest in attending the meetings of Red or Yellow activists although I have actually done quite a lot of it when they came to my doorstep….. I am more interested in the opinions of the vast majority of people who are NOT activists becausse they are actually the vast majority of people…. And as I have said before a resigned cynicism and worries about the economy and how to make ends is meet is much of what I hear from far north to far south and across the Korat Plateau.
Malaysia should get with the program that the home of the free US is adopting, electronic voting. That way there are no checks required, the results are tallied electronically and then the desired result is announced.
Would also work for Thailand, too many villages to bribe with the chance of being caught, just sort out those that run the software, clean neat and you get to choose whether you scrape home or win by a landslide.
Come to think of this might be Gillards only hope of electoral victory. Can see the headline now as the voters shake their heads in disbelief – “Gillard storms home in WA & Qld.”
Amending the 2008 Constitution may only succeed ultimately by storming the parliament. The point is to get rid of it.
ASSK/NLD may fancy their chances in fighting a war of attrition from within (not exactly a Trojan horse strategy); they were pushed to it by both international and domestic pressures and could see no non-violent alternative. Better than being hogtied and muzzled indefinitely though cooptation is cooptation by any other name. It’s realpolitik alright but not sure if they have made a realistic calculation of the risks inherent in such a momentous move.
The by-election ‘landslide’ victory was ‘permitted’ by those who have made a cunning plan and taken a more thoroughly calculated risk with a view to their own exit strategy in conformity with ‘international norms’ but on their own terms. So ASSK/NLD are now in a bit of a bind albeit on a more maneuverable level than before. No prizes for guessing what the real priorities of her Western supporters are – our national interest or their own Big Business objectives.
The Kachin won’t do it alone nor any other minorities; even together they’ve tried before, albeit in a fragmented effort (17 disunited armies divided and conquered to all intents and purposes), and failed. At best the KIA will fight the govt to a standstill, and remain Burma’s Chechnya, somewhat better than Tibet, with their American friends making appropriate noises but no concrete measures let alone ‘shock and awe’. In the big picture China is now a top notch fully paid up member of the New World Order and Burma is being welcomed to join.
Both Khun Sam and Ohn are right. These generals have never ever given any serious thoughts to finding practical political solutions in order to achieve lasting internal peace and genuine development. ASSK/NLD at least have if tentatively, and short of any other majority Bamar players on board, it is incumbent upon the minorities to wise up to the reality of it, and play ball with this group.
” The fact that you somehow down play the deal between PT and the military just being “business” without seeing beyond the “culture” behind it is the very problem”
I am not downplaying it…. And I just did talk about the role of the Military and indeed other institutions… As I said before I am actually not able to discuss the role of the monarch here on the world wide web and I just explained why… You may if you wish. That is your choice which you are free to make according to what you feel the dangers may be depending on where you are and how accurate you believe your interpretation of criminal law may be.
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Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Not to barge in to meaningful commentary, but constant submittal of one-sided views expressed as fact don’t do a lot of good to accommodate differences of opinion or lead to meaningful constructive conclusions. For example, comment 90 is a clear opinion but expresses it all as fact. This is not logical nor defensible in and of itself. Some of it may be true, some not. We need to express opinions as such, and when stating so-called fact also need to back it up with a cited reference that can be supported by dependable, provable and as-non prejudicial as possible independent references not based on the same sources cited.
Let’s go through it here…
“Thaksin is onlyy symbol of demcracy, and most Thai love him not because of his money, but what he have done for people. Despite so many charge to him from politic opposition,military, and some elite, he still can survive, and get more powerful and can defeat any enemy.
Red Shirt was born from those injustice placed to both Thaksin and his allies, people who support him. What Red Shirt want is just justice to Thaksin and to choose their future without any hidden power, and outside influential ,and from someone behind the scene!”
1. It is arguable that MOST Thais might not love Thaksin. Where did the MOST come from?
2. The argument he is loved by people not because of his money but because of what he did for people is also a highly prejudicial conclusion. Many people may feel that Thaksin did a great deal for the Thai people, but what academic research is there to indicate why they feel this way, how many feel this way, and whether that is indeed accurate.
3. The argument the Red Shirts want justice for Thaksin (and presumably for themselves) and to choose their future without any hidden power is not going to happen, not in this life or any life anywhere. There is always massive power behind the scenes whether al la Thaksin or the Amart, etc., and that will not disappear. But the appeal of having national policies meet real needs is probably the core idea here.
Life is full of ulterior motives with even people we know well, or think we do, making decisions and taking actions that affect or do not affect each of us, and the world. Sit down at a table with people that call themselves your family or friends and start going over their individual motives for one thing or another.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Thaksin is onlyy symbol of demcracy, and most Thai love him not because of his money, but what he have done for people. Despite so many charge to him from politic opposition,military, and some elite, he still can survive, and get more powerful and can defeat any enemy.
Red Shirt was born from those injustice placed to both Thaksin and his allies, people who support him. What Red Shirt want is just justice to Thaksin and to choose their future without any hidden power, and outside influential ,and from someone behind the scene!
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Nick
Interesting noting different reactions of PT in the recent by-election loss to that of the Dems when they lose a vote.
And you’re right, taking pretty photos of temples and tattoos is not the same as actually talking to the grassroots political movement that has taken shape in Thailand and is now morphing into something that is leaving Thaksin behind.
It is, as you’ve said, fascinating actually watching the wheels of history turning.
As for the Dems – in their present mode they are finished. Let’s hope they turn it around to become a proper opposition
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
In the long list of Dem Party reasons for losing the 2011 election (as they have every other single election in 20years) Dan forget to mention the most compelling one.
That they sent the army in to shoot unarmed civilians.
I guess that’s irrelevant to Dan as he sweats his way around Thailand.
Hold that thought…
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
“johninbkk”:
Oops, of course – you are right.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#85 Nick
Quickly… Cos I have to get on the road…. I don’t under estimate the growth in awareness across Thailand…. My impressions of attitudes are born of many chats with people across the country and they are exactly that…. impressions…. But they are informed impressions.
You are engaged in thorough systematic research and I find your reports fascinating.
On the last elections, PT won for a number of very good reasons….
A. People were fed up with the incompetence of the Democrat administration. Even in the Dem heartlands in the south around the rubber rich areas between Trang and Patthalung where I spent quite some time in the run up to the election people were dissatisfied with the rudderless ship that the government was, with rubber prices going down and the economy in dissatisfy. Many saw Abhisit as a good guy but also saw him as ineffectual and surrounded by the usual corrupt and menacing suspects… They won’t have voted PT, but they were not happy…. In swing areas I imagine the feeling was stronger. Thaksin still also has the aura of dynamic economic management from his days as PM when the world was booming. Whether that is justified or not I don’t know…..
B. During the election the Dems had a chance to really show and invigorated sense of ‘caring’ about the people they ask to vote for them…. Problem is they really don’t have one…. And people instead saw a disdainful collection of men and women with outmoded attitudes and an arrogant sense of entitlement…. People are wise to that now and they acted accordingly. The Dems have totally failed to clock changes and learn about how a 21st Century political party gathers and maintains support…. Their campaign was just about as bad as it could…. An own goal of stupendous incompetence and complacency….. This was far too big a landslide to be simply about Red shirts…. It took non committed swing voters in huge numbers.
C. The ‘Narak’ factor…. Thaksin has an amazing nack for short term political timing…. Putting in his own truly fresh and fragrant sister was the equivalent of fielding a panda bear…. Never under estimate the importance of ‘narak’ in Thailand….. She half convinces me she is so wholesome (‘na ka?’)….. And what makes it even more amazing is that at the time the Dems considered it an own goal…. This is populist politics at its most finely honed and skilled…. The panda won a landslide…..
Anyway…. Gotta run…. Keep up the good work big boy….
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
@Nick #84
“the double Democrat win in Red Shirt stronghold Pathum Thani”
It was a single win by the Dems (by a small margin), and a double loss by PTP:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/289957/pheu-thai-suffers-2-big-poll-defeats
@Dan #83
By debating with us, I assume you’d like us to agree with you and see it your way. Name calling and insults directed at the listener is perhaps the worst debate technique there is to achieve that goal.
Bersih 3.0 – What next Mr. Najib Razak?
Is it really as clear cut as that? Malaysians have a lot more to loose financially than any of those nations at the time of their bloody uprisings. There would have to be an unprecedented abuse of power for an uprising to occur in Malaysia. People, we feel, will be more content to lose as underachievers for longer, than lose lives. Unfortunately for proponents of change in Malaysia, there have been many precedents for society to, let’s say, built up a tolerance for corruption…
“More corruption news tonight”
“So wat mah? Always corruption”
“True. Bersih protestor probably also quite corrupt probably”
“Ya, why protest if protestor also corrupt or protest for corrupt reason?”
“Ya…”
“Got roti yet loh? Man Utd play Liverpool tonight..”
Maybe you’ll all have to wait for Bersih 3.0 or 4.0. Giving it these 2.0, 3.0 numbers etc, might send the movement the way of the failed Shah Alam iCity…
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
“Dan”:
For someone who is not interested in meeting Red Shirt activists you have very strong opinions about them though… 😉
Your claims of “the vast majority” remind me of the Democrat Party’s constant claims in 2010, that only a “minority” group would try to pressure the by their party led government coalition into elections by “mob rule”, yet only to be defeated by a huge margin in the 2011 elections.
Given the close association between Red Shirts and Pueah Thai Party, and especially the post 2010 crackdown demonization of the Red Shirts by media, Democrat led government and military, their election win is quite a strong indicator that the Red Shirts and their sympathizers are not just a tiny minority. And yes, the double Democrat win in Red Shirt stronghold Pathum Thani under a weak election participation in both the by-elections and in the PAO elections is an indicator that the Pueah Thai party cannot just rest on its laurels because people will anyhow vote for them (there were, after the 2011 elections, frictions between the local Red Shirts and the Puaeh Thai Party).
Yes, i am aware how much time you spend in the field. But how much time do you spend in the villages of contemporary rural Thailand, and not just researching aspects of folkloristic Thailand?
How can you, while traveling in those areas, ignore the emergence of the Red Shirt Village Movement, for example?
Have you ever researched rural Thailand and Red Shirt involvement on local level, especially how this conflict transformed local politics through the empowerment that is a by the Red Shirts opponents often neglected factor that has transformed the sociopolitical landscape of Thailand.
Have you ever looked into the rural community radio stations and their influence in these villages?
You don’t even need to go that far – even communities in Bangkok with a high percentage of rural migrants are now politicized to a degree that has never been evident before.
And in both of these areas local Thais do what you for obvious reasons cannot do here on the net – they do discuss the monarchy institution quite openly and critically now. I live in such a community here in Bangkok. Yes, people talk a lot about their economical difficulties – as you mentioned (and of course their main topics are the normal human topics: gossip, food, etc). But in this connection these other subjects are talked and discussed about as well, as they are talked about in the home villages of these people.
And sorry, Dan, this is representative for contemporary Thailand.
The elephant and Myanmar politics
Good job all the traditional Burmese elephant proverbs and sayings are partially catalogued here as the Burmeseness is nearly due it’s use-by date once the most celebrated Democracy of Burma arrives where all the academics, historians and economists are supporting the moneymen to shove down the Burmese throats of social, environmental and cultural destruction for money and integration of Burma into the decadent world which itself is moribund.
Another traditional Burmese joke involves snake. A man boasting of killing a snake 6 inch in girth and 10 foot in length was challenged again and again about the estimated length for the said girth, he eventually has to give up saying ” At this rate, my snake is going to be like a ball.”
Currently for all the tumultuous millions of people worth of adulation and support there is not a single shred of evidence that Aung San Suu Kyi has affected the day to day lives of ordinary people of Burma.
Rapes, murders, tortures, land confiscations rates went up along with water, petrol and electricity prices and no one now dare say any thing bad about the continued construction of Irrawaddy destroying dam or shameful pipe line cutting the land in halves (ShweGash).
Inane and stupid as it is, may be this big deal about 3 or 4 words is all the people’s champions could pretend to do for the good of the country even at a time Min Aung Hlaing is busy clumsily trying to kill as many Kachin as possible without a murmur of objection from any human.
If they give this up as well, hmmm… the snake is going to be like a ball. All the same the author advocating for yet further compromise with the military is rather touching.
U Moe Aung describes such phenomenon as not having political intransigence which is also applauded by all and sounds really sage and good phonetically. It used to said in Burmese Japanse ” yaw- daw- shi” as like a girl telling the Japanese soldier “Master, yaw-daw- shi”.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#82 johninbkk
“Dan, if you put no effort into learning about the red shirts other than what you heard about them on the news or other anti-TS outlets, you should question the validity of your opinions based on that information.”
I lived very near Rajaprasong throughout much of the Red shirt protest and spent quite a lot of time there. I also spend a great deal of time in what one might consider heartland red areas of Isan and the north. ….. When Rajaprasong was cleared I was in Chiang Mai and saw the reactions there as people absorbed the news. Not long after that I was based around Udon, Kalasin and Kon Kaen for a while…. Nor do I watch very much TV.
Johninkk….. You might consider getting out of Bangkok once in a while in order that you broaden your horizons. Then you could call yourself Johnintherealworld.
#78 Tarrin
“It would be more productive to talk about some hard topic and not the retailing of 1970s version of the anti liftist tale.”
I am not quite sure what you mean. Can you explain.
#83 blah blah
“He’s repetitive, boring, incredibly long-winded and unable to keep an argument together, veering from the irrational to the plain weird.”
Brand new sock puppet for a brand new day….. You certainly have energy….
Shan warlord captured?
It is so exciting to see our own China is behaving almost like the big brother American. Their arm is growing longer just in a wink!
May be they are right all along. It is the money and killing ability that matters in the world.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
So instead of NM debates being trolled by likes of Stan G and Tony C we now have Dan White.
He’s repetitive, boring, incredibly long-winded and unable to keep an argument together, veering from the irrational to the plain weird.
Give ’em enough rope I guess.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
@Nick #76
“articles of so-called journalists who mostly base their points also on rumor and supposition, while in the area we actually can get provable facts – in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.”
I visited the red shirt protests from 2008-2010 myself to see what they were like. Most of what I saw on the news/TV didn’t match the reality that I saw with my own eyes. Even basic facts were wrong.
Dan, if you put no effort into learning about the red shirts other than what you heard about them on the news or other anti-TS outlets, you should question the validity of your opinions based on that information.
Malaysia needs independent electoral observers
please help us…
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=424019560960663
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan# 78
My point is not to force you to talk about the thai royal, but to point out that the executive brach is only a minor problem in this conflict. It would be more productive to talk about some hard topic and not the retailing of 1970s version of the anti liftist tale.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#77 Nick
“And yet again, we are stuck in the same endless, narrow and entirely fruitless discussion solely based on analysis of the elite conflict and elite machinations, completely excluding and disregarding the changing perception and position of ordinary people who in the past years became increasingly politically interested and active.”
These are two different discussions Nick…. Although interrelated… Both are valid… Historically machinations amongst elites have a habit of stifling the aspirations of ordinary people… The fact that there is a change in awareness amonsgt the populace guarantees nothing although one can only hope for postive progress…. Although you are right that there is a huge sea change in Thailand…
“in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.”
I am not interested in activists… I am interested in ordinary people living their lives grass roots or otherwise…. And as you well know I spend a great deal of time for my (non political) work across pretty much every province of this country and its neighbours often in the oddest and most obscure corners and have done for many years…. Activists are low on my list of people I consider representative.
“I am sorry, Dan, but i am rather tired of debates and discussion purely based on speculation”
Be as tired as you like Nick… A measure of speculation is part of your job too… It is part of the process of analysis and the process of how you deal with the information that you have gathered. It is not simply a recitation of facts however scrupulous in gathering them you may be.. … ‘Not seeing the wood for the trees’ is sometimes a trap you fall into in my opinion…. Although your attention to facts is what will always allow you to rejig because you are not big on wild assumptions whatever your personal views may be….
“The Siam Reap event has shown quite clearly that certain elites may want to continue business as usual, but it has shown as well that these elites nowadays are under scrutiny of their own supporters. This by itself proves that Thailand has changed to quite some degree already.”
The penny may well be dropping amongst much of the Red Shirt throng… But the point remains how much the percentage of the movement will remain mainly a platform for Thaksin as a demagogue and how large a percentage will engage in a more progressive agenda… This is something that we have discussed at length over the last year or so. It remains the moot point and comes back to where future opposition to ALL the elites, including the newer mercantile class of Thaksin et al, will come from.
“There is only a very limited number of journalists here who do bother with the grassroots angle in a systematic manner, but there are many more journalists who have very strong opinions, yet without having done almost no work whatsoever on what should be the base of our profession – working in the field. ”
I spend most of my working life in the field.
“How on earth can it happen that a photographer who is basically not interested in politics at all [me] has researched, photographed and written more on this subject matter in a place with a higher density of journalists than anywhere else in this region?”
Nick, one of the reasons I like you and why you want me to have your children is that we have a an in-common respect for those who go into the field rather than those who rely on phoners or silly chatrooms…. This is one reason I like your work…. The other is that you write well in English which is rare for someone whose first language is not English. You, however, are not the only one…..
“When will i see you sweating in the field at one or the other Red Shirt, or Yellow Shirt event? For somebody who has such strong opinions, you physical presence is quite elusive, or have you, by chance, reached a stage of omniscience? ”
You can see me sweating in small villages and obscure towns across Thailand, Laos and Cambodia for about 6 months of any given year if you want to jump on the back of the bike and hang out in Mae Hong Son, Beung Khan, Mukdahan, Sangkhlaburi, Chainat, Trang , Surin, Ratchaburi etc etc ….. I have no interest in attending the meetings of Red or Yellow activists although I have actually done quite a lot of it when they came to my doorstep….. I am more interested in the opinions of the vast majority of people who are NOT activists becausse they are actually the vast majority of people…. And as I have said before a resigned cynicism and worries about the economy and how to make ends is meet is much of what I hear from far north to far south and across the Korat Plateau.
Malaysia needs independent electoral observers
Malaysia should get with the program that the home of the free US is adopting, electronic voting. That way there are no checks required, the results are tallied electronically and then the desired result is announced.
Would also work for Thailand, too many villages to bribe with the chance of being caught, just sort out those that run the software, clean neat and you get to choose whether you scrape home or win by a landslide.
Come to think of this might be Gillards only hope of electoral victory. Can see the headline now as the voters shake their heads in disbelief – “Gillard storms home in WA & Qld.”
Shining light on Kachin war coverage
Amending the 2008 Constitution may only succeed ultimately by storming the parliament. The point is to get rid of it.
ASSK/NLD may fancy their chances in fighting a war of attrition from within (not exactly a Trojan horse strategy); they were pushed to it by both international and domestic pressures and could see no non-violent alternative. Better than being hogtied and muzzled indefinitely though cooptation is cooptation by any other name. It’s realpolitik alright but not sure if they have made a realistic calculation of the risks inherent in such a momentous move.
The by-election ‘landslide’ victory was ‘permitted’ by those who have made a cunning plan and taken a more thoroughly calculated risk with a view to their own exit strategy in conformity with ‘international norms’ but on their own terms. So ASSK/NLD are now in a bit of a bind albeit on a more maneuverable level than before. No prizes for guessing what the real priorities of her Western supporters are – our national interest or their own Big Business objectives.
The Kachin won’t do it alone nor any other minorities; even together they’ve tried before, albeit in a fragmented effort (17 disunited armies divided and conquered to all intents and purposes), and failed. At best the KIA will fight the govt to a standstill, and remain Burma’s Chechnya, somewhat better than Tibet, with their American friends making appropriate noises but no concrete measures let alone ‘shock and awe’. In the big picture China is now a top notch fully paid up member of the New World Order and Burma is being welcomed to join.
Both Khun Sam and Ohn are right. These generals have never ever given any serious thoughts to finding practical political solutions in order to achieve lasting internal peace and genuine development. ASSK/NLD at least have if tentatively, and short of any other majority Bamar players on board, it is incumbent upon the minorities to wise up to the reality of it, and play ball with this group.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#75 Tarrin
” The fact that you somehow down play the deal between PT and the military just being “business” without seeing beyond the “culture” behind it is the very problem”
I am not downplaying it…. And I just did talk about the role of the Military and indeed other institutions… As I said before I am actually not able to discuss the role of the monarch here on the world wide web and I just explained why… You may if you wish. That is your choice which you are free to make according to what you feel the dangers may be depending on where you are and how accurate you believe your interpretation of criminal law may be.