this thread i s more fun than the Sunday Comics, Go get em Nick, those of us who have been reading your articles for the last few years know the truth. Sic Em.
Seriously, all of these unnecessary personal attacks and criticisms totally remind me of statements constantly in the news and in Parliament by Democrat Party members. Nuff said
Again – labeling complex historical processes primarily with simplistic and moralistic terms of “good” and “bad” will not lead to either an intelligent nor a satisfying discussion.
As to what Germany became – what do you mean with that? Do i detect a slight longing for days of the empire on which the sun never sets? 😉
I personally am quite glad that i was born in modern Germany in which i will not need to go to war with another princely German state a few kilometers away. So yes, i am reasonably satisfied with what Germany became, in the end.
Good, you circumvented the “Hitler” knock out… barely. But of course, you had to introduce “Stalin” and even “Vlad the impaler” 😉
Is Thaksin that “bad”? Thaksin the impaler?
Why not Genghis Khan? Nero? Caligula?
What about Charlemagne? He is seen as a unifying force in Europe that pushed Europe from the dark ages after the fall of the Roman Empire on its way to recuperation – yet his wars in Saxony, marked by scorched earth and forced conversions or extermination of entire peoples show a different picture as well. Was he “good”, was he “bad”?
And back to the Thaksin issue – what is your alternative? That people just stop campaigning, and put their trust into the same old system that they were so disappointed in that they voted for Thaksin in the first place, warts and all? Or to get entirely rid of Democracy, as some extremists demand?
Or blindly support the Democrat party because Abhisit is Oxford educated, regardless the fact that this derelict party’s line of opposition is primarily defined by its nemesis Thaksin?
Shall Thais just follow the elder statesman such as Prem whose view seems to be to just trust Phra Siam Thevathirat? Or continue to listen to the serms of Bowornsak on good governance?
Why not let Thais decide over their own future, make their own mistakes, and this way develop themselves? Is Thaksin a danger to world peace so that the rest of the world feels a need to step in? Hardly.
Thaksin is just part of Thailand’s process of development – no more, no less. Again, as you are so unhappy about, and vehemently against this Red/Yellow conflict – what is your alternative? What shall Thais do?
# 16 John Smith….”Thais have democratically elected a PT govt so we need to respect that vote), will bring long-term and meaningful change to Thailand.”
Elections throughout history have often thrown up terrible and brutal leaders….. Benito Mussolini, George W Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Adolf Hitler…… So yes the results of these elections should be respected in the same way as the US elections in 2000 were respected… But that doesn’t mean one is forced to say either Chalerm Yubamrung or Dick Cheney are anything other than damaging to the nations they have ruled or do rule.
Secondly…. Why on earth, after all this time, do you think these tired old mafia faces (or their little sisters) are going to bring ‘long term and meaningful change’? They are going to do exactly what they did in the past and exactly the same as most Thai politicians always do…. They will exploit their positions for business and financial advantage.
“:Thirdly – why is Dan (aka Dan White) always so personal and abusive when he makes any comment?”
Says the sock puppet…….
#19 Ralph”Dan: I understand that you are very angry about something”…..
Your ‘understanding’ clearly contains some fairly serious flaws.
Seeing virtue in Napoleon Bonaparte and the Napoleonic wars is in of the oddest things I ever heard for quite some time. … And given what the existence of the amalgamated German states became I hardly think one can see its birth as being a positive legacy of Napoleon’s rule….
Also saying one cannot label any historical or political figure as bad is just ludicrous….. I am going to run this by you….. Stalin was ‘bad’ and so was Vlad the Impaler….. Now you really wouldn’t take issue with that would you?……
The government is reaping what it sowed with massive immigration , and
too many foreign workers.
The government keeps the hype up about Singapore being an example to follow and being a green clean place to live . People should have a look at other countries who have had massive immigration and repressive governments , it has been shown not to work and have problems .
With your first premise you already built a strawman as i am not “embedded” in the Red Shirts, but go to all sides. On Saturday, for example, i went to the protests of the “Group Demanding Return of Power from Politicians Ungrateful to the Land”, a new name for some activists under Siam Samakkhi, whose members were formerly PAD supporters.
To answer your three leading questions:
a) Are you so sure already that Thaksin will return soon? Don’t you think that before asking this question you should wait for more developments to take place?
b) Radical in which way? In the European context most of what may be called here “radical” is in Europe still within the mainstream. In the Thai context they may be seen as “radical”. And yes, these thoughts and ideologies are still around everywhere, increasingly so. Go to any village, any Red Shirt neighborhood, and you will encounter these thoughts. How should i profile a cross section of Thai society? Impossible.
c) Karaoke terrible. But that hasn’t yet stopped anyone, which you can see and hear in any karaoke lounge all across Asia. People enjoyed it, he obviously enjoyed himself, so what’s the harm?
Nostitz, more than any other foreign journalists, succeeded to get himself imbedded among the Red Shirts. I am therefore interested to learn Nostitz’ personal take on many Red matters, but these first three will do.
a) Will Thaksin’s return unify the Red Shirt movement more, or, trigger a breaking apart of its many factions? (I am indirectly suggesting that ‘Thaksin staying away’ could actually be the glue that keeps those Esan shirts Red.)
b) Whatever happened to the more extremists/radical faction of the Red Shirts movement? And just who are these people (Nostitz’s opinion as to their profile)
c) Could Thaksin really competently sing ‘My Way’ or was he karaoke-terrible?
@Vichai
Um, I think you are exaggerating that Thaksin is a real hreat to Thailand. If you don’t want Thaksin, all you need to do is do not vote for him. He cannot force you to vote for you. He cannot force you to love him. He cannot jail you if you criticise him. And if he loses the election he cannot use unconstitutional methods to get into power (at least not now, anyway).
I believe the real threat to Thailand should be someone who forces people to love him, jails people who criticise him, and can approve, support, or acquiesce to any unconstitutional methods to get anyone he wants into power. Do you know who that person is?
Dan: I understand that you are very angry about something, but not sure what that is. That anger deflects you from the point of the earlier quip: Unlike you, Vichai grasped the basic point suggesting a considerable intelligence and self awareness. Do try to calm down.
[…] This is a city that has been ranked as the most liveable Asian city – albeit for expats. This is also a country with high Gini coefficient that has increased steadily over the last decade. […]
Maybe Thaksin has a Napoleon complex but there is a difference. Napoleon gained power through the coup of 18 Brumaire which was justified because of the inefficiencies and corruption of the politicians. Sound familiar? Thaksin on the other hand lost power through a coup. Like the generals of September 19 2006, Napoleon abrogated the constitution as well.
#Ralph 14. “He displays a sense of humor in these matters. ”
A bit like Bernard Manning? . …. Ralph, I had no idea that you were using New Mandala as a platform for the exhibition of your rapier wit and all round comedic talent….. Do carry on….
“Look at the French Revolution… It didn’t turn up liberty, it turned up a brand new despot named Napoleon Bonaparte and it took 15 years and untold misery before he was finally winkled out (for the second time) by Wellington and Blucher at the Battle of Waterloo (or Mon Saint Jean to the French) in 1815 and exiled to St Helena which was a lot further away than Elba…. ”
This is one rather linear way of thinking. The French revolution was a historical process that happened because it had to happen. Attaching labels such as ‘good’ and ‘bad’ just doesn’t do justice to complex historical processes.
Yes, Napoleon may have been a despot. But only through Napoleon the tiny German princely states turned into larger entities out of which Germany as a Nation developed.
Without the French revolution and Napolean, many countries in Europe may have taken much longer to shake off the shackles of Feudalism.
Thaksin appeared, because the time was right for someone like Thaksin to appear. The past 6 years of sociopolitical conflict in Thailand took place because Thailand’s development led to it. Like it or not – this is just the way how history works. And what implications for the future this will have – we will see.
One thing though is that people that have achieved historical greatness – and Thaksin for Thai history definitely can be described as such – are rarely people that can be easily described with simple terms such as ‘despot’, ‘criminal’, etc.
Comparing the adulation of Thaksin to the King is false. The King has almost the entire state apparatus, including one of the most brutal censorship laws on earth, supporting an unquestioning propaganda campaign for him. This campaign is enforced by regular threats from the military who also routinely invoke the King’s name to carry out coups and massacres. Any criticism of the King can lead to a long prison sentence or stalking and hate campaigns by rightwing hate mobs. On this forum we can freely discuss/analyse Thaksin without too much fear of being imprisoned, arrested or targetted. The reverse is true if you question the Thai monarchy. Strangely, given that context, the King has been seen by some as a symbol of democracy while Thaksin is seen as the opposite.
Secondly, this kind of rockstar treatment for a popular politician is hardly new or something particular to Thaksin. Countless numbers of leaders – from Mandela to Peron – have all received such adulation.
The question of “true democracy” coming to Thailand is complex. Democracy is an ideal and a concept that is struggled over culturally, politically and socially throughout the world. It means something different to Indians and something different to Greeks. At the moment many of Thailand’s most important institutions – courts, bureaucracy, military, religious, monarchy, civil bodies – are politicised towards a form of royalist Thai phalangism and unaccountable to democratic norms. The only democratic norm that has been put in place – and the struggle to secure that has been long and bloody and is still continuing – is the right for the population to elect a government. My view is that securing that, however distasteful Thaksin may or may not be to Western liberal thinking (and let’s face it we are not Thais and don’t have to face, completely, what that means. Thais have democratically elected a PT govt so we need to respect that vote), will bring long-term and meaningful change to Thailand. I just hope a proper democratic opposition to Thaksin emerges soon. The Democrat Party are not “democrats” but part of the Thai phalangist project – that is the root of their continued failure. They don’t have to rely on the vote to secure power so when worry about it? It’s deep in the Dems’ mindset.
Thirdly – why is Dan (aka Dan White) always so personal and abusive when he makes any comment? It’s getting very tiresome. Please contribute, rather than subtract, Dan.
#45 Ralph… “How silly and how lacking in humo(u)r”
Maybe you could run the joke by me again…. Or, in fact, do your own version of ‘Let it Be’, put it on youtube, and I will see if I can rustle up a rictus, Peua, Thai phony and paid for grin and a fawning Nattawat guffaw….. Just like the Thonglor Phrai rustles up for the boss……
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When Thaksin comes home
this thread i s more fun than the Sunday Comics, Go get em Nick, those of us who have been reading your articles for the last few years know the truth. Sic Em.
Seriously, all of these unnecessary personal attacks and criticisms totally remind me of statements constantly in the news and in Parliament by Democrat Party members. Nuff said
It’s just my opinion, but I am always right!
When Thaksin comes home
“Dan”:
Again – labeling complex historical processes primarily with simplistic and moralistic terms of “good” and “bad” will not lead to either an intelligent nor a satisfying discussion.
As to what Germany became – what do you mean with that? Do i detect a slight longing for days of the empire on which the sun never sets? 😉
I personally am quite glad that i was born in modern Germany in which i will not need to go to war with another princely German state a few kilometers away. So yes, i am reasonably satisfied with what Germany became, in the end.
Good, you circumvented the “Hitler” knock out… barely. But of course, you had to introduce “Stalin” and even “Vlad the impaler” 😉
Is Thaksin that “bad”? Thaksin the impaler?
Why not Genghis Khan? Nero? Caligula?
What about Charlemagne? He is seen as a unifying force in Europe that pushed Europe from the dark ages after the fall of the Roman Empire on its way to recuperation – yet his wars in Saxony, marked by scorched earth and forced conversions or extermination of entire peoples show a different picture as well. Was he “good”, was he “bad”?
And back to the Thaksin issue – what is your alternative? That people just stop campaigning, and put their trust into the same old system that they were so disappointed in that they voted for Thaksin in the first place, warts and all? Or to get entirely rid of Democracy, as some extremists demand?
Or blindly support the Democrat party because Abhisit is Oxford educated, regardless the fact that this derelict party’s line of opposition is primarily defined by its nemesis Thaksin?
Shall Thais just follow the elder statesman such as Prem whose view seems to be to just trust Phra Siam Thevathirat? Or continue to listen to the serms of Bowornsak on good governance?
Why not let Thais decide over their own future, make their own mistakes, and this way develop themselves? Is Thaksin a danger to world peace so that the rest of the world feels a need to step in? Hardly.
Thaksin is just part of Thailand’s process of development – no more, no less. Again, as you are so unhappy about, and vehemently against this Red/Yellow conflict – what is your alternative? What shall Thais do?
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
# 16 John Smith….”Thais have democratically elected a PT govt so we need to respect that vote), will bring long-term and meaningful change to Thailand.”
Elections throughout history have often thrown up terrible and brutal leaders….. Benito Mussolini, George W Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Adolf Hitler…… So yes the results of these elections should be respected in the same way as the US elections in 2000 were respected… But that doesn’t mean one is forced to say either Chalerm Yubamrung or Dick Cheney are anything other than damaging to the nations they have ruled or do rule.
Secondly…. Why on earth, after all this time, do you think these tired old mafia faces (or their little sisters) are going to bring ‘long term and meaningful change’? They are going to do exactly what they did in the past and exactly the same as most Thai politicians always do…. They will exploit their positions for business and financial advantage.
“:Thirdly – why is Dan (aka Dan White) always so personal and abusive when he makes any comment?”
Says the sock puppet…….
#19 Ralph”Dan: I understand that you are very angry about something”…..
Your ‘understanding’ clearly contains some fairly serious flaws.
Why Singapore government become like that?
Member of Parliament “Sing Harn Tong” apologies for racists remarks regarding SMRT breakdown. HERE is the news report and the video HERE.
When Thaksin comes home
Hi Nick
Seeing virtue in Napoleon Bonaparte and the Napoleonic wars is in of the oddest things I ever heard for quite some time. … And given what the existence of the amalgamated German states became I hardly think one can see its birth as being a positive legacy of Napoleon’s rule….
Also saying one cannot label any historical or political figure as bad is just ludicrous….. I am going to run this by you….. Stalin was ‘bad’ and so was Vlad the Impaler….. Now you really wouldn’t take issue with that would you?……
Why Singapore government become like that?
The government is reaping what it sowed with massive immigration , and
too many foreign workers.
The government keeps the hype up about Singapore being an example to follow and being a green clean place to live . People should have a look at other countries who have had massive immigration and repressive governments , it has been shown not to work and have problems .
When Thaksin comes home
“Vichai N”:
With your first premise you already built a strawman as i am not “embedded” in the Red Shirts, but go to all sides. On Saturday, for example, i went to the protests of the “Group Demanding Return of Power from Politicians Ungrateful to the Land”, a new name for some activists under Siam Samakkhi, whose members were formerly PAD supporters.
To answer your three leading questions:
a) Are you so sure already that Thaksin will return soon? Don’t you think that before asking this question you should wait for more developments to take place?
b) Radical in which way? In the European context most of what may be called here “radical” is in Europe still within the mainstream. In the Thai context they may be seen as “radical”. And yes, these thoughts and ideologies are still around everywhere, increasingly so. Go to any village, any Red Shirt neighborhood, and you will encounter these thoughts. How should i profile a cross section of Thai society? Impossible.
c) Karaoke terrible. But that hasn’t yet stopped anyone, which you can see and hear in any karaoke lounge all across Asia. People enjoyed it, he obviously enjoyed himself, so what’s the harm?
When Thaksin comes home
Nostitz, more than any other foreign journalists, succeeded to get himself imbedded among the Red Shirts. I am therefore interested to learn Nostitz’ personal take on many Red matters, but these first three will do.
a) Will Thaksin’s return unify the Red Shirt movement more, or, trigger a breaking apart of its many factions? (I am indirectly suggesting that ‘Thaksin staying away’ could actually be the glue that keeps those Esan shirts Red.)
b) Whatever happened to the more extremists/radical faction of the Red Shirts movement? And just who are these people (Nostitz’s opinion as to their profile)
c) Could Thaksin really competently sing ‘My Way’ or was he karaoke-terrible?
Vajiralongkorn: Possessor of the thunderbolt
Luecha Na Malai is right. The basic meaning of “vajira” is “jewel”, not “thunderbolt”.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
@Vichai
Um, I think you are exaggerating that Thaksin is a real hreat to Thailand. If you don’t want Thaksin, all you need to do is do not vote for him. He cannot force you to vote for you. He cannot force you to love him. He cannot jail you if you criticise him. And if he loses the election he cannot use unconstitutional methods to get into power (at least not now, anyway).
I believe the real threat to Thailand should be someone who forces people to love him, jails people who criticise him, and can approve, support, or acquiesce to any unconstitutional methods to get anyone he wants into power. Do you know who that person is?
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Looks like Thaksin & Kevin Rudd have something else in common.
Both were deposed by a coup, both were (in part) to blame for their own downfalls, and both get mobbed by their supporters 🙂
Will both fade away, or will they hang around like a bad smell? (a la General Prem)
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan: I understand that you are very angry about something, but not sure what that is. That anger deflects you from the point of the earlier quip: Unlike you, Vichai grasped the basic point suggesting a considerable intelligence and self awareness. Do try to calm down.
Singapore’s inequality battle
[…] This is a city that has been ranked as the most liveable Asian city – albeit for expats. This is also a country with high Gini coefficient that has increased steadily over the last decade. […]
When Thaksin comes home
Dan
Maybe Thaksin has a Napoleon complex but there is a difference. Napoleon gained power through the coup of 18 Brumaire which was justified because of the inefficiencies and corruption of the politicians. Sound familiar? Thaksin on the other hand lost power through a coup. Like the generals of September 19 2006, Napoleon abrogated the constitution as well.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Awesome post, Nick. The questions you asked TS were very well chosen and very informative.
Royal pardon for Thaksin? Or coup for the king?
@CT
“Is there any provision in Thai law which made it illegal for one to Сbring his own sisterТ to win the election?”
The answer is no. But I wrote
“manipulating the system and indirectly bribing his and his sisterТs way to the power. ”
I don’t even need academic research to see that !!!! Sometimes when people study too hard, they become delusional !
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#Ralph 14. “He displays a sense of humor in these matters. ”
A bit like Bernard Manning? . …. Ralph, I had no idea that you were using New Mandala as a platform for the exhibition of your rapier wit and all round comedic talent….. Do carry on….
When Thaksin comes home
“Dan”:
“Look at the French Revolution… It didn’t turn up liberty, it turned up a brand new despot named Napoleon Bonaparte and it took 15 years and untold misery before he was finally winkled out (for the second time) by Wellington and Blucher at the Battle of Waterloo (or Mon Saint Jean to the French) in 1815 and exiled to St Helena which was a lot further away than Elba…. ”
This is one rather linear way of thinking. The French revolution was a historical process that happened because it had to happen. Attaching labels such as ‘good’ and ‘bad’ just doesn’t do justice to complex historical processes.
Yes, Napoleon may have been a despot. But only through Napoleon the tiny German princely states turned into larger entities out of which Germany as a Nation developed.
Without the French revolution and Napolean, many countries in Europe may have taken much longer to shake off the shackles of Feudalism.
Thaksin appeared, because the time was right for someone like Thaksin to appear. The past 6 years of sociopolitical conflict in Thailand took place because Thailand’s development led to it. Like it or not – this is just the way how history works. And what implications for the future this will have – we will see.
One thing though is that people that have achieved historical greatness – and Thaksin for Thai history definitely can be described as such – are rarely people that can be easily described with simple terms such as ‘despot’, ‘criminal’, etc.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Comparing the adulation of Thaksin to the King is false. The King has almost the entire state apparatus, including one of the most brutal censorship laws on earth, supporting an unquestioning propaganda campaign for him. This campaign is enforced by regular threats from the military who also routinely invoke the King’s name to carry out coups and massacres. Any criticism of the King can lead to a long prison sentence or stalking and hate campaigns by rightwing hate mobs. On this forum we can freely discuss/analyse Thaksin without too much fear of being imprisoned, arrested or targetted. The reverse is true if you question the Thai monarchy. Strangely, given that context, the King has been seen by some as a symbol of democracy while Thaksin is seen as the opposite.
Secondly, this kind of rockstar treatment for a popular politician is hardly new or something particular to Thaksin. Countless numbers of leaders – from Mandela to Peron – have all received such adulation.
The question of “true democracy” coming to Thailand is complex. Democracy is an ideal and a concept that is struggled over culturally, politically and socially throughout the world. It means something different to Indians and something different to Greeks. At the moment many of Thailand’s most important institutions – courts, bureaucracy, military, religious, monarchy, civil bodies – are politicised towards a form of royalist Thai phalangism and unaccountable to democratic norms. The only democratic norm that has been put in place – and the struggle to secure that has been long and bloody and is still continuing – is the right for the population to elect a government. My view is that securing that, however distasteful Thaksin may or may not be to Western liberal thinking (and let’s face it we are not Thais and don’t have to face, completely, what that means. Thais have democratically elected a PT govt so we need to respect that vote), will bring long-term and meaningful change to Thailand. I just hope a proper democratic opposition to Thaksin emerges soon. The Democrat Party are not “democrats” but part of the Thai phalangist project – that is the root of their continued failure. They don’t have to rely on the vote to secure power so when worry about it? It’s deep in the Dems’ mindset.
Thirdly – why is Dan (aka Dan White) always so personal and abusive when he makes any comment? It’s getting very tiresome. Please contribute, rather than subtract, Dan.
When Thaksin comes home
#45 Ralph… “How silly and how lacking in humo(u)r”
Maybe you could run the joke by me again…. Or, in fact, do your own version of ‘Let it Be’, put it on youtube, and I will see if I can rustle up a rictus, Peua, Thai phony and paid for grin and a fawning Nattawat guffaw….. Just like the Thonglor Phrai rustles up for the boss……