“The Chinese element, so evident in this year’s gaudy New Year, seems part and parcel of the drum beat of alleged worship while ripping off the treasury.”
Believe what you will, but my little prying open the racial tolerance experiment didn’t go well. It took this long for someone to say something and yet my post was up there for four or five days.
The other aspect of the Chinese reference, perhaps missed or not clearly stated by me, was mainland Chinese connections, not racial connections per se, although it is difficult to avoid that aspect. As you know, China has a several corruption problem, unlike, of course (said in satire) the US.
CT (22). I wasn’t thinking so much about movies or beauty queens, as the Thai royal family’s punitive reaction to Ubolratana’s marriage for love, and the conflict between romantic and dynastic marriage that has repeatedly afflicted that family over more than half a century. Romantic love has its own political ramifications. Its dual r├┤le of selling movies and undermining dynasties makes it highly suited to the commercial and republican ethos of the United States.
#13: Frank, taking a racist swipe at the “Chinese element” is simply disgusting. But perhaps it serves a purpose, reminding us how difficult freedom-of-expression issues are, even as we discuss the angry verbal backlash to Nitirat. Would New Mandala be wrong to remove such a comment, or negligent in tolerating it?
LM may be too hot a political and social issue for today’s politicians to address. But they could prove their commitment to the principles of freedom of thought and expression by dismantling Thailand’s other criminal defamation laws. Doing so would make them more credible.
To elaborate on the comment from Trut, and the progression of what would happen to the Lao community and also earlier comments (Author Andrew Walker in Women, Space, and History: Long- Distance trading in Northwestern Laos) here is an interesting account of the current proliferation of regionalistic progression from an abstract entitled EXPANDING REGIONALISM IN THE GREATER MEKONG SUBREGION: CHALLENGES AND CONCERNS FOR THE LAO PDR
By Kearrin Sims, University of Western Sydney, Australia http://www.icird.org/files/Papers/ICIRD2011_Kearrin%20Sims.pdf
Would marginalizing the Lao people be in it it’s own best interest certainly the Lao PRD agree… ‘As has been shown in this paper, Chinese investments in northern Laos do represent, at one extreme, examples of extraterritoriality (in the case of Boten’s casino complex), while at the same time there are other instances where Chinese private investments are being used by the Lao state to legitimize and empower their own socio-cultural and political objectives.’ Sims, K (p. 18).
Whatever machoism that takes place in Laos between governments ( Lao or Chinese) would be important and prudent to understand what the people want and if that is to be help the Lao people attain dhana or ‘the moveables, the money, the property, the capital, the fortune, the treasure, the gift, the stake, the earnings’ from Grant Evans (1999) Laos Culture and Society citing Reinhorn, Mark (1970) Dictionaire Laotian-Francais then who can argue this?
Then is the progression considered material, diplomatic, or simply economic in nature? New Lao has much to offer but whether this is effectively done is yet to be seen, just as it suddenly appears on the international scene.
Rick,
I read your book. I liked it; I like it more after Craig’s thoughtful review; he shows me virtues that I had overlooked. I liked your emphasis on the internal political meanings of the Thai participation in Vietnam, and I think you made that case well. I also liked hearing Thai soldiers speak for themselves about their motivations and recollections. I liked it, but I was mostly unconvinced. For them I wanted a third party point of view — data on engagements, reports from Vietnamese and American colleagues, people and sources with some claim to empiricism or objectivity. It is reasonable that a study of that sort would be beyond your scope, but I think it’s a necessary next step before we can concluded that what the soldiers say about themselves is an adequate basis for judging them.
With respect to Craig’s suggestions about broadening academic study of the Thai military, what about soldier memoirs? Panlop Pantumetha published a fairly revealing book, it seemed to me, a couple of years ago after the Khrue-Se incident in 2004(?). Are there more like that?
The article sounds more like a sorry excuse for Mahathir than an intellectual discourse. Please do not forget that Mahathir is the patron of Perkasa, an out and out “racist and pseudo islamist” NGO.
An endless accusations of opposition party members as agents for the church and “CIA” etc etc is not the behaviour of somone interested in dialogue. As the commentator above said “monologue” not dialogue.
I am amused that Tarrin (#28) is suddenly sickened by Chalerm’s rants (LM threats). But just maybe Crusader Chalerm is just all bark but no bite.
At one time, I think during the Y2007 campaigning with the late Samak S., Chalerm Yubamrung publicly vowed to “execute” Thaksin’s foes. Now Chalerm Y. is Deputy PM, has he executed any Thaksin “foes” yet?
Bow wow wow.
And the late Samak S., an ultra-lese-majeste-swinging-rightist-royalist actually headed (at Thaksin’s behest) Thaksin’s PPP party. So what’s all these bemoaning that Yingluck-Chalerm-PT Party has backslided and betrayed the ’cause’?
The PT party has no cause other than the Thaksin cause. Right Tarrin?
Tarrin –
Very happy to see your optimism that a new liberal political party might emerge soon. If so what might the first item on its policy platform be?
I suggest a Bill of Rights – Right to free speech, trial by jury etc.
On just how un-free we are in Thailand, I have been trying to find out what the “royal institution” means. Google tells me about the eminent and ancient scientific research body the British Royal Institution which is usually referred to as the Royal Institution as well as various Royal Institutions for specific areas of study.
If I searched for “Royal Institution” Thailand, a few entries appeared including a Wiki entry about Bhumipol where the term “royal institution” appears but is not defined.
Here is the extract from Wiki:
“Although Bhumibol is held in great respect by many Thais, he is also protected by lèse majesté laws which allow critics to be jailed for three to fifteen years.[138] The laws were toughened during the dictatorship of royalist Premier Tanin Kraivixien, such that criticism of any member of the royal family, the royal development projects, the royal institution, the Chakri Dynasty, or any previous Thai King was also banned.[139] Jail terms for Thai citizens committing lèse majesté are usually harsher than for foreigners.”
Footnote 139:
The original penalty was a maximum of 7 years imprisonment, but was toughened to a minimum of 3 years and a maximum of 15 years. This harsher sentence has been retained to the current day, see Colum Murphy (September 2006). “A Tug of War for Thailand’s Soul”. Far Eastern Economic Review. As stipulated under the Constitution, lèse majesté only applied to criticism of the King, Queen, Crown Prince, and Regent. Tanin, a former Supreme Court justice, reinterpreted this as a blanket ban against criticism of royal development projects, the royal institution, the Chakri Dynasty, or any Thai King. See David Streckfuss. “Kings in the Age of Nations: The Paradox of Lèse-Majesté as Political Crime in Thailand”. Comparative Studies in Society and History 33 (3): 445–475. The reinterpretation has stood to the present day.
I still do not know the meaning of royal institution in the Thai context but have a better understanding of the system of fear ruling over the country.
Returning to my earlier suggestion for a Bill of Rights. Were this to be adopted the law of libel would vanish and with it these attempts to quash free speech which politicians so frequently resort to (e.g. the latest: Noppadon suing the Democrats on behalf of Thaksin over something allegedly said but not apparently printed in a book of interviews)
My view is that it is better to focus on free speech, which of course includes the right of reply than Article 112 which has a more limited scope.
Gross National Happiness is like caviar – everybody says it’s a delicious delicacy, but nobody eats it regularly because it’s too expensive. While I’d love to see countries take environmental and social issues into account when managing growth, we currently don’t have good incentive structures to give leaders and citizens reason to adhere to a GHP economy.
@Khun Tarrin asks: “Talk about her previous film, “the bodyguard” has anyone got any idea how much did the film make?”
I am not sure as well but many Reds said the money was a financial failure, as Ubolrat is not ‘young’ as people are not really interested in seeing the movie which the leading actress almost 60. However until I really know how much they made from the movie I cannot really confirm whether this is true or not.
As for Khun Pavin’s opinion that Ubolrat’s acting is ‘wooden’, I beg to differ. I think her acting is generally quite good for Thai entertainment industry standard. My biggest problem about her is that I don’t like to see her speaks. It looks very unnatural, as if she cannot open her mouth comfortably. Seems like there are a lot of restrictions that she can only open her mouth to a certain degree of wideness. Is this the result of excessive facelifts she had?
With the amendment of article 121 (1A) of our Federal Constitution in 1988 when most of the opposition were out of the way under operation lalang, the Judiciary’s jurisdiction over Islamic matters was handed over to the Syaria courts. Since that controversial amendment, the inter-religious relations among the various religions have taken a slide with Islam always having the upper hand.
“More importantly, the decisions – the politics – must be owned and driven by Burmese themselves; rule by external experts runs the risk of short-circuiting the necessary internal conversations Burmese need to have, abdicating the politics of ‘development’ to the technocrats.”
The problems to this utopia created by the west and the successive military government of Ne Win and now SPDC, are virtually insurmountable.
Problems that need to be address in Myanmar 101:
1) Education
At least during Ne Win time besides BSPP push for 100% literacy there were always availability of the West effort to upgrade all aspect through fellowship, scholarship and outright grants that allowed the brightest ones in every fields to learn the necessary advances and thoughts to be brought back to Myanmar.
During almost 3 decades of SPDC/West useless careless era, not only the government is out right against education, has also help by the west sanction that has presently degraded at least 2 generation of future leaders to concepts/teachings only from Military Institutions at Pyin U Lwin, in Russian, China and N Korea, if not for the exception of Singapore.
2) Heath Care
Besides the oft mention 20% childhood mortality, the scourge of common diseases such as cerebral Malaria and constant malnutrition that deprive the survival to a limited capability in every respects.
3) Economic Potential
The most essential part for “hope for the future”, thoroughly destroyed by induced poverty, especially combined with #1 and #2. Making, destructive addictions/escapism of every kind seem reasonable and good.
Not until these 3 fundamentals are addressed soon and effectively the future of Myanmar and the debates here at New Mandala is nothing more than meaningless words like Neolibralism.
While much of Myanmar’s present challenges stem in large part from the centralised, authoritarianism of the so-called socialist era, it is nonetheless missleading to suggest that a neoliberal order presents the only viable route for the country to address its present challanges. It is also relevant to point out that Myanmar began economic liberalisation over 20 years ago at the end of the 1980s, and the effects of this have included a significant increase in income inequlity (as to be expected) but also a signifcant increase in absolute poverty for property-less labourers (See Fujita et al’s The Economic Transition in Myanmar After 1988). Older Myanmar workers I’ve talked with have said that at least during the socialist era they could feed their families, despite being cash poor. Whereas now it’s difficult to do even that.
I hope to see our Myanmar colleagues rescue the more libertarian socialist voices from their country’s rich socialist history, as these might positively inform contemporary discussions of viable and humane alternatives to a radical neoliberal order.
Recent Yingluck’s speech and Chalerm’s rant really sicken me. (Btw VichaiN I didn’t vote for PT, I voted for the New Aspiration in case you bought your “reality bites” thinggy)
Anyhow, PT has overestimated their own popularity and underestimate the significant of the liberal element within the red. I felt like a new political party might emerge soon.
@RN England said:
“Given the army’s ambivalent attitude to the Chakris in 1945, the Swiss girl that King Ananda loved would have been regarded as a poor choice compared with a nice Thai girl from a powerful army family.”
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Burma and the debates to come
There is little doubt that the president said a lot without any track record at all.
I would suggest that the eager take up Ms Su Kyi humble suggestion to first amend the constitution.
Then the situation will indeed become clearer.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
“The Chinese element, so evident in this year’s gaudy New Year, seems part and parcel of the drum beat of alleged worship while ripping off the treasury.”
Believe what you will, but my little prying open the racial tolerance experiment didn’t go well. It took this long for someone to say something and yet my post was up there for four or five days.
The other aspect of the Chinese reference, perhaps missed or not clearly stated by me, was mainland Chinese connections, not racial connections per se, although it is difficult to avoid that aspect. As you know, China has a several corruption problem, unlike, of course (said in satire) the US.
Princess Ubolratana in Queen Jamadevi
CT (22). I wasn’t thinking so much about movies or beauty queens, as the Thai royal family’s punitive reaction to Ubolratana’s marriage for love, and the conflict between romantic and dynastic marriage that has repeatedly afflicted that family over more than half a century. Romantic love has its own political ramifications. Its dual r├┤le of selling movies and undermining dynasties makes it highly suited to the commercial and republican ethos of the United States.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
#13: Frank, taking a racist swipe at the “Chinese element” is simply disgusting. But perhaps it serves a purpose, reminding us how difficult freedom-of-expression issues are, even as we discuss the angry verbal backlash to Nitirat. Would New Mandala be wrong to remove such a comment, or negligent in tolerating it?
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
LM may be too hot a political and social issue for today’s politicians to address. But they could prove their commitment to the principles of freedom of thought and expression by dismantling Thailand’s other criminal defamation laws. Doing so would make them more credible.
The Western aid sector in Laos – days numbered?
To elaborate on the comment from Trut, and the progression of what would happen to the Lao community and also earlier comments (Author Andrew Walker in Women, Space, and History: Long- Distance trading in Northwestern Laos) here is an interesting account of the current proliferation of regionalistic progression from an abstract entitled EXPANDING REGIONALISM IN THE GREATER MEKONG SUBREGION: CHALLENGES AND CONCERNS FOR THE LAO PDR
By Kearrin Sims, University of Western Sydney, Australia
http://www.icird.org/files/Papers/ICIRD2011_Kearrin%20Sims.pdf
Would marginalizing the Lao people be in it it’s own best interest certainly the Lao PRD agree… ‘As has been shown in this paper, Chinese investments in northern Laos do represent, at one extreme, examples of extraterritoriality (in the case of Boten’s casino complex), while at the same time there are other instances where Chinese private investments are being used by the Lao state to legitimize and empower their own socio-cultural and political objectives.’ Sims, K (p. 18).
Whatever machoism that takes place in Laos between governments ( Lao or Chinese) would be important and prudent to understand what the people want and if that is to be help the Lao people attain dhana or ‘the moveables, the money, the property, the capital, the fortune, the treasure, the gift, the stake, the earnings’ from Grant Evans (1999) Laos Culture and Society citing Reinhorn, Mark (1970) Dictionaire Laotian-Francais then who can argue this?
Then is the progression considered material, diplomatic, or simply economic in nature? New Lao has much to offer but whether this is effectively done is yet to be seen, just as it suddenly appears on the international scene.
Review of Ruth
Rick,
I read your book. I liked it; I like it more after Craig’s thoughtful review; he shows me virtues that I had overlooked. I liked your emphasis on the internal political meanings of the Thai participation in Vietnam, and I think you made that case well. I also liked hearing Thai soldiers speak for themselves about their motivations and recollections. I liked it, but I was mostly unconvinced. For them I wanted a third party point of view — data on engagements, reports from Vietnamese and American colleagues, people and sources with some claim to empiricism or objectivity. It is reasonable that a study of that sort would be beyond your scope, but I think it’s a necessary next step before we can concluded that what the soldiers say about themselves is an adequate basis for judging them.
With respect to Craig’s suggestions about broadening academic study of the Thai military, what about soldier memoirs? Panlop Pantumetha published a fairly revealing book, it seemed to me, a couple of years ago after the Khrue-Se incident in 2004(?). Are there more like that?
Thanks for the book and the research.
Christian-Muslim dialogue and Mahathir
The article sounds more like a sorry excuse for Mahathir than an intellectual discourse. Please do not forget that Mahathir is the patron of Perkasa, an out and out “racist and pseudo islamist” NGO.
An endless accusations of opposition party members as agents for the church and “CIA” etc etc is not the behaviour of somone interested in dialogue. As the commentator above said “monologue” not dialogue.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
Comment #1 will make it very hard for whoever lives in Thailand to share this article on Facebook or Twitter.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
I am amused that Tarrin (#28) is suddenly sickened by Chalerm’s rants (LM threats). But just maybe Crusader Chalerm is just all bark but no bite.
At one time, I think during the Y2007 campaigning with the late Samak S., Chalerm Yubamrung publicly vowed to “execute” Thaksin’s foes. Now Chalerm Y. is Deputy PM, has he executed any Thaksin “foes” yet?
Bow wow wow.
And the late Samak S., an ultra-lese-majeste-swinging-rightist-royalist actually headed (at Thaksin’s behest) Thaksin’s PPP party. So what’s all these bemoaning that Yingluck-Chalerm-PT Party has backslided and betrayed the ’cause’?
The PT party has no cause other than the Thaksin cause. Right Tarrin?
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
Tarrin –
Very happy to see your optimism that a new liberal political party might emerge soon. If so what might the first item on its policy platform be?
I suggest a Bill of Rights – Right to free speech, trial by jury etc.
On just how un-free we are in Thailand, I have been trying to find out what the “royal institution” means. Google tells me about the eminent and ancient scientific research body the British Royal Institution which is usually referred to as the Royal Institution as well as various Royal Institutions for specific areas of study.
If I searched for “Royal Institution” Thailand, a few entries appeared including a Wiki entry about Bhumipol where the term “royal institution” appears but is not defined.
Here is the extract from Wiki:
“Although Bhumibol is held in great respect by many Thais, he is also protected by lèse majesté laws which allow critics to be jailed for three to fifteen years.[138] The laws were toughened during the dictatorship of royalist Premier Tanin Kraivixien, such that criticism of any member of the royal family, the royal development projects, the royal institution, the Chakri Dynasty, or any previous Thai King was also banned.[139] Jail terms for Thai citizens committing lèse majesté are usually harsher than for foreigners.”
Footnote 139:
The original penalty was a maximum of 7 years imprisonment, but was toughened to a minimum of 3 years and a maximum of 15 years. This harsher sentence has been retained to the current day, see Colum Murphy (September 2006). “A Tug of War for Thailand’s Soul”. Far Eastern Economic Review. As stipulated under the Constitution, lèse majesté only applied to criticism of the King, Queen, Crown Prince, and Regent. Tanin, a former Supreme Court justice, reinterpreted this as a blanket ban against criticism of royal development projects, the royal institution, the Chakri Dynasty, or any Thai King. See David Streckfuss. “Kings in the Age of Nations: The Paradox of Lèse-Majesté as Political Crime in Thailand”. Comparative Studies in Society and History 33 (3): 445–475. The reinterpretation has stood to the present day.
I still do not know the meaning of royal institution in the Thai context but have a better understanding of the system of fear ruling over the country.
Returning to my earlier suggestion for a Bill of Rights. Were this to be adopted the law of libel would vanish and with it these attempts to quash free speech which politicians so frequently resort to (e.g. the latest: Noppadon suing the Democrats on behalf of Thaksin over something allegedly said but not apparently printed in a book of interviews)
My view is that it is better to focus on free speech, which of course includes the right of reply than Article 112 which has a more limited scope.
Burma and the debates to come
Gross National Happiness is like caviar – everybody says it’s a delicious delicacy, but nobody eats it regularly because it’s too expensive. While I’d love to see countries take environmental and social issues into account when managing growth, we currently don’t have good incentive structures to give leaders and citizens reason to adhere to a GHP economy.
Princess Ubolratana in Queen Jamadevi
@Khun Tarrin asks: “Talk about her previous film, “the bodyguard” has anyone got any idea how much did the film make?”
I am not sure as well but many Reds said the money was a financial failure, as Ubolrat is not ‘young’ as people are not really interested in seeing the movie which the leading actress almost 60. However until I really know how much they made from the movie I cannot really confirm whether this is true or not.
As for Khun Pavin’s opinion that Ubolrat’s acting is ‘wooden’, I beg to differ. I think her acting is generally quite good for Thai entertainment industry standard. My biggest problem about her is that I don’t like to see her speaks. It looks very unnatural, as if she cannot open her mouth comfortably. Seems like there are a lot of restrictions that she can only open her mouth to a certain degree of wideness. Is this the result of excessive facelifts she had?
Princess Ubolratana in Queen Jamadevi
actress or not, Ubolrat is still a babe.
Christian-Muslim dialogue and Mahathir
With the amendment of article 121 (1A) of our Federal Constitution in 1988 when most of the opposition were out of the way under operation lalang, the Judiciary’s jurisdiction over Islamic matters was handed over to the Syaria courts. Since that controversial amendment, the inter-religious relations among the various religions have taken a slide with Islam always having the upper hand.
Dialogue, did you say? It is more of a monologue.
Burma and the debates to come
Well said, still the cart moving the horse.
“More importantly, the decisions – the politics – must be owned and driven by Burmese themselves; rule by external experts runs the risk of short-circuiting the necessary internal conversations Burmese need to have, abdicating the politics of ‘development’ to the technocrats.”
The problems to this utopia created by the west and the successive military government of Ne Win and now SPDC, are virtually insurmountable.
Problems that need to be address in Myanmar 101:
1) Education
At least during Ne Win time besides BSPP push for 100% literacy there were always availability of the West effort to upgrade all aspect through fellowship, scholarship and outright grants that allowed the brightest ones in every fields to learn the necessary advances and thoughts to be brought back to Myanmar.
During almost 3 decades of SPDC/West useless careless era, not only the government is out right against education, has also help by the west sanction that has presently degraded at least 2 generation of future leaders to concepts/teachings only from Military Institutions at Pyin U Lwin, in Russian, China and N Korea, if not for the exception of Singapore.
2) Heath Care
Besides the oft mention 20% childhood mortality, the scourge of common diseases such as cerebral Malaria and constant malnutrition that deprive the survival to a limited capability in every respects.
3) Economic Potential
The most essential part for “hope for the future”, thoroughly destroyed by induced poverty, especially combined with #1 and #2. Making, destructive addictions/escapism of every kind seem reasonable and good.
Not until these 3 fundamentals are addressed soon and effectively the future of Myanmar and the debates here at New Mandala is nothing more than meaningless words like Neolibralism.
Burma and the debates to come
While much of Myanmar’s present challenges stem in large part from the centralised, authoritarianism of the so-called socialist era, it is nonetheless missleading to suggest that a neoliberal order presents the only viable route for the country to address its present challanges. It is also relevant to point out that Myanmar began economic liberalisation over 20 years ago at the end of the 1980s, and the effects of this have included a significant increase in income inequlity (as to be expected) but also a signifcant increase in absolute poverty for property-less labourers (See Fujita et al’s The Economic Transition in Myanmar After 1988). Older Myanmar workers I’ve talked with have said that at least during the socialist era they could feed their families, despite being cash poor. Whereas now it’s difficult to do even that.
I hope to see our Myanmar colleagues rescue the more libertarian socialist voices from their country’s rich socialist history, as these might positively inform contemporary discussions of viable and humane alternatives to a radical neoliberal order.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
Recent Yingluck’s speech and Chalerm’s rant really sicken me. (Btw VichaiN I didn’t vote for PT, I voted for the New Aspiration in case you bought your “reality bites” thinggy)
Anyhow, PT has overestimated their own popularity and underestimate the significant of the liberal element within the red. I felt like a new political party might emerge soon.
Princess Ubolratana in Queen Jamadevi
Talk about her previous film, “the bodyguard” has anyone got any idea how much did the film make?
Princess Ubolratana in Queen Jamadevi
@RN England said:
“Given the army’s ambivalent attitude to the Chakris in 1945, the Swiss girl that King Ananda loved would have been regarded as a poor choice compared with a nice Thai girl from a powerful army family.”
Such as Apasra Hongsakula, Miss Universe 1965?