“……if some of these comments are made in front of my face?…I probably muay thia elbow you in the face….just for fun…….and no I wasn’t forced or tricked into loving the king”
It is so ironic that you claim you were not forced to love the King, yet you said that if someone makes a comment that they do not love the King, you will “muay thai” them in the face. How contradictory and sad this is. This just proves your assertion completely wrong that Thais are not “FORCED” to love the King.
And you don’t have to thank me for correcting your misspelling of “Muay Thai”. It is my pleasure.
And how can you be sure that you have not been tricked into loving this King? Why there is a law forbidding anyone to say something which is not fawning about him? Why there is a law to imprison people who speak negatively of him? How do you ever know that every good thing you hear about him is true, when there is a law to forbid and jail you when you speak otherwise (not to mention that the King himself is the one who signs and gives assent to this law having effect)?
“……most thais never have nor never will fully trust the civilian government.”
Really? Can you prove this? Can you read people’s minds? Have you conducted a poll, asking all Thais whether they trust a democratically elected government or they don’t?
Do not make any assertion if you cannot prove them, or if you have never made an attempt to prove it.
It is very humorous when someone like “siam i am” comes along with a spleen in need of venting but can’t come up with one item of real criticism and then speaks for most Thais while being nasty and uncivil. Siam you ain’t.
Dear Mr. Anderson: Your last point is well taken. But is it really “people waking up” or “people staying in a trance”?
Let me reiterate. I am merely trying to put something to right. No condescension was intended, absolutely. I know full well that condescension is costly for us Thais, and that only a farang can afford it. Should anyone read condescension into my statement, that could be double condescension. Farewell, Mr. Anderson, you will hear no more from me. No more things picayunish or pedantic.
“As I understand, in Aung San’s time there were some discussions to rename the country Myanmar, but the idea was dropped for this very reason.”
Should DASSK get credit for all “UNITY” issues even when it does not exist?
With very lowest bar 2┬║ to being the west ‘poster person’ while the opposite is true for the one she has had defied.
Despite that, the only difference from the point of view of the citizenry is she talk about Democracy more yet all the same empty.
Neither sides create a milieu conducive with citizenry well being, within respective capability.
“And if names are really so important, why didn’t Burma change the names of its states to reflect what the minorities in those states call themselves? Why isn’t Shan State now Tai Yai State? Shouldn’t Kachin State be Jingpaw State? Yakhine or Rakhine?”
This proof clearly show that you put the burden of naming Myanmar “Myanmar” on the shoulder of this present government.
The new names adopted often lacked serious linguistic credibility, and some appear questionable (the final “r” at the end of the name Myanmar makes sense only for a speaker of a non-rhotic dialect of English).
-ma vs -mar.
Unlike English language most SE Asian language that originated from Chinese or Khmer have FOUR intonations. In Vietnamese 6! Those who know some french will immediately recognize the accents, one higher,lower and in between intonation.
Bama Sagah (Burmese language) most commonly assume the middle tone that “R” best convey. “H” the higher tone as above ‘sagaH’or saga.
Therefore -maR is better than -ma. Since ma can be pronounce maH. Making Myanma /MYANMAH. Absolutely unacceptable pronunciation.
Wonderful Roger but I suspect you are being a little ethnocentric comparing the defence forces of two countries that are not alike in many ways. Only partially entering the debate here rightly or wrongly the Thai military has played a greater role in shaping Thai society than the Australian military has played in shaping Australian society.
Correct me if I am wrong but the Digger Tradtion and the ANZAC spirit are not grounded in professionalism but forms of voluntarism (certainly misplaced in WWI but not so in WWII) and conscription (highly misplaced during the Vietnam War: at least for those Australians opposed to the war in Vietnam) and some aspects of professionalism (perhaps misadventure in Iraq and Afghanistan but more useful in peacekeeping roles) and of highly dubious value domestically (Howard intervention to save Aboriginal communities from themselves).
@ Shane Tarr,
If you don’t wish to enter the debate, why do it? The fact that it has nothing to do with Thai armed forces professionalism just detracts from the debate.
The armed forces of a country are there to protect the citizens, all the citizens no matter who they voted for, of the country not only in war, but peace as well and the Thai armed forces just don’t do that. A prime example was the floods just a couple of months ago in which I was in the middle of.
The fact that the army commander openly pledges his allegiance to the monarchy and not the country…and elected government…is indicative of fiefdoms of bygone eras.
My perspective is purely based on my time in the Australian armed forces and what we would have been expected to do during a time of crisis, peace and war, and the Thai armed forces do none of it.
Thanks for your detailed views but I think you have wrongly assumed attack on Islam/Muslims.
You give the example of China and England of moral decay and note that no one blames the religion of these countries.
There is very good reason for this.
Neither in China nor England is any religion promoted as superior. Furthermore, in both these countries religion is not a key factor in deciding public policy. There is a clear separation of religion and state.
This is not the case in Malaysia where Islam is promoted as “the national religion” and influences public policy although Malaysia is a Constitutional democracy in the Westminster tradition.
Islam’s influence pervades all aspects of Malaysian life through the public sector, through state support for Islam and Malay culture. This is not the case in China or England.
And this is the context that I asked if Islam has been a force for good or bad in Malaysia.
More specific questions:
(1) Would Malaysia (and its Muslim citizens) be a better country simply by following the rule of law instead of relying on Islamic norms?
(2) Would Malaysia (and Muslim citizens) be better of if the best Malaysians were chosen to lead or employed in the GLCs, public sector, politics rather than only Muslims?
Overall, I have to confess that the more I think about the 2005 speech, the less I understand it. Extracts of it taken out of context certainly seem to support the argument that King Bhumibol is opposed strict enforcement of the lese majeste laws, but when you look at the whole speech, other comments seem to suggest precisely the opposite. And some of it just seems utterly baffling.
Perhaps, as Thanong Khanthong often tells me, I am just not enlightened enough to fathom such lofty matters.
Hello–
I personally have tried to refer to the country as Myanmar ever since the name was recognized by the United Nations. I think that in terms of the appropriate name for a country in an international context, the United Nations is the most appropritate arbitrator. It is certainly not the ‘perfect’ setting, (one has but to think of the continued reference to ‘Democratic Kampuchea’ at the UN for over a decade following the ’79 ousting of the Khmer Rouge for a chilling example), but I think it by and large ‘the least bad’ way of coming to terms with a country’s name for international circulation.
Thanks for sharing this. As a ‘farang’ studying SE Asia affairs, I go through bouts of self-relfection along lines such as the above–interesting to hear a different perspective!
I don’t wish to enter the debate as to whether the Thai military is more professional or less professional but soldiers who are paid to kill or be killed are professional in much the same ways that teachers who are paid to teach, no matter how well or how poorly, are paid to teach. I also suspect that when professional soldiers go to war they hope to win wars or at least win battles they participate in which reminds me of a well-educated US marine who had his balls blown off during the war in Vietnam saying well we won the battle I was in but now I have no balls!
@Jack Gibson- in response to your question about the flag the three colours represent ‘nation, religion,king’- a sacred trinity, if you like that That Thai people hold dear to them.
As to the subject of the king and in particular to this book i believe Handley makes relevant points in his criticism of the ‘democratic’ voice of Thailand. One man’s opinion should not obviously be taken as fact but the historical documentation is well researched none the less. What i find interesting (coming from an art history background) is the propaganda through art, film and various other mediums in Thailand are incredibly similar to those of totalitarian states of past and present. Look at how HM Bhumibol is represented and compare that to Mao, Lenin…even Kim Jong Il and there are incredible similarities.
These images i believe are not so much pro royalty, but perhaps more inclined to instill an absolute feudal submission to the royal family. Is this democratic……not in the least. Perhaps cementing a position as being a key political figure is more accurate.
[…] in late 2011 shocked Thais and made global headlines. On November 23, 61-year-old grandfather Ampon Tangnoppakul was sentenced to 20 years in prison for allegedly sending four SMS messages critical of Queen […]
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Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
“……if some of these comments are made in front of my face?…I probably muay thia elbow you in the face….just for fun…….and no I wasn’t forced or tricked into loving the king”
It is so ironic that you claim you were not forced to love the King, yet you said that if someone makes a comment that they do not love the King, you will “muay thai” them in the face. How contradictory and sad this is. This just proves your assertion completely wrong that Thais are not “FORCED” to love the King.
And you don’t have to thank me for correcting your misspelling of “Muay Thai”. It is my pleasure.
And how can you be sure that you have not been tricked into loving this King? Why there is a law forbidding anyone to say something which is not fawning about him? Why there is a law to imprison people who speak negatively of him? How do you ever know that every good thing you hear about him is true, when there is a law to forbid and jail you when you speak otherwise (not to mention that the King himself is the one who signs and gives assent to this law having effect)?
“……most thais never have nor never will fully trust the civilian government.”
Really? Can you prove this? Can you read people’s minds? Have you conducted a poll, asking all Thais whether they trust a democratically elected government or they don’t?
Do not make any assertion if you cannot prove them, or if you have never made an attempt to prove it.
Reviewing King Bhumibol’s life
I hope you are not criticising the Harry Potter oeuvre. That is even more controversial and incendiary than criticising the Thai monarchy.
Reviewing King Bhumibol’s life
Marshall, quoting JK Rowling, come on, I was enjoying feeling serious about this!
Reviewing King Bhumibol’s life
Bear with me on this one folks. It is either going to be the best and most important thing I ever wrote, or a vast and flabby load of dross.
Let’s hope for all our sakes it is the former.
Like all good tragedies, it has five acts. The first and some of the second are online already, and more is being added in real time. Best wishes.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
It is very humorous when someone like “siam i am” comes along with a spleen in need of venting but can’t come up with one item of real criticism and then speaks for most Thais while being nasty and uncivil. Siam you ain’t.
New Mandala: cowardly, stupid and lacking in wisdom
Dear Mr. Anderson: Your last point is well taken. But is it really “people waking up” or “people staying in a trance”?
Let me reiterate. I am merely trying to put something to right. No condescension was intended, absolutely. I know full well that condescension is costly for us Thais, and that only a farang can afford it. Should anyone read condescension into my statement, that could be double condescension. Farewell, Mr. Anderson, you will hear no more from me. No more things picayunish or pedantic.
Name games and Myanmar
Addendum
Bamar Sagah is closer to Paleet (Pali) language.
Nevertheless the intonations characteristics still stand.
Name games and Myanmar
Scott #9
Unity issue! I think not.
“As I understand, in Aung San’s time there were some discussions to rename the country Myanmar, but the idea was dropped for this very reason.”
Should DASSK get credit for all “UNITY” issues even when it does not exist?
With very lowest bar 2┬║ to being the west ‘poster person’ while the opposite is true for the one she has had defied.
Despite that, the only difference from the point of view of the citizenry is she talk about Democracy more yet all the same empty.
Neither sides create a milieu conducive with citizenry well being, within respective capability.
“And if names are really so important, why didn’t Burma change the names of its states to reflect what the minorities in those states call themselves? Why isn’t Shan State now Tai Yai State? Shouldn’t Kachin State be Jingpaw State? Yakhine or Rakhine?”
This proof clearly show that you put the burden of naming Myanmar “Myanmar” on the shoulder of this present government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Burma
The new names adopted often lacked serious linguistic credibility, and some appear questionable (the final “r” at the end of the name Myanmar makes sense only for a speaker of a non-rhotic dialect of English).
-ma vs -mar.
Unlike English language most SE Asian language that originated from Chinese or Khmer have FOUR intonations. In Vietnamese 6! Those who know some french will immediately recognize the accents, one higher,lower and in between intonation.
Bama Sagah (Burmese language) most commonly assume the middle tone that “R” best convey. “H” the higher tone as above ‘sagaH’or saga.
Therefore -maR is better than -ma. Since ma can be pronounce maH. Making Myanma /MYANMAH. Absolutely unacceptable pronunciation.
Thailand’s political soldiers
Wonderful Roger but I suspect you are being a little ethnocentric comparing the defence forces of two countries that are not alike in many ways. Only partially entering the debate here rightly or wrongly the Thai military has played a greater role in shaping Thai society than the Australian military has played in shaping Australian society.
Correct me if I am wrong but the Digger Tradtion and the ANZAC spirit are not grounded in professionalism but forms of voluntarism (certainly misplaced in WWI but not so in WWII) and conscription (highly misplaced during the Vietnam War: at least for those Australians opposed to the war in Vietnam) and some aspects of professionalism (perhaps misadventure in Iraq and Afghanistan but more useful in peacekeeping roles) and of highly dubious value domestically (Howard intervention to save Aboriginal communities from themselves).
Land and conflict in Cambodia
Thanks for these perspectives Tim, very interesting.
Thailand’s political soldiers
@ Shane Tarr,
If you don’t wish to enter the debate, why do it? The fact that it has nothing to do with Thai armed forces professionalism just detracts from the debate.
The armed forces of a country are there to protect the citizens, all the citizens no matter who they voted for, of the country not only in war, but peace as well and the Thai armed forces just don’t do that. A prime example was the floods just a couple of months ago in which I was in the middle of.
The fact that the army commander openly pledges his allegiance to the monarchy and not the country…and elected government…is indicative of fiefdoms of bygone eras.
My perspective is purely based on my time in the Australian armed forces and what we would have been expected to do during a time of crisis, peace and war, and the Thai armed forces do none of it.
Thailand’s political soldiers
Yes Shane shooting children in the head on the street and teaching them arithmetic are directly comparable.
Apostasy in Malaysia: The hidden view
@ Namaku Muhammad #34
Thanks for your detailed views but I think you have wrongly assumed attack on Islam/Muslims.
You give the example of China and England of moral decay and note that no one blames the religion of these countries.
There is very good reason for this.
Neither in China nor England is any religion promoted as superior. Furthermore, in both these countries religion is not a key factor in deciding public policy. There is a clear separation of religion and state.
This is not the case in Malaysia where Islam is promoted as “the national religion” and influences public policy although Malaysia is a Constitutional democracy in the Westminster tradition.
Islam’s influence pervades all aspects of Malaysian life through the public sector, through state support for Islam and Malay culture. This is not the case in China or England.
And this is the context that I asked if Islam has been a force for good or bad in Malaysia.
More specific questions:
(1) Would Malaysia (and its Muslim citizens) be a better country simply by following the rule of law instead of relying on Islamic norms?
(2) Would Malaysia (and Muslim citizens) be better of if the best Malaysians were chosen to lead or employed in the GLCs, public sector, politics rather than only Muslims?
(3) Has Islam made Muslims in Malaysia weak?
Lese majeste: Royal perspectives
Ralph Kramden #1
Coincidentally, I asked the same question yesterday on Facebook, and got some useful replies. That thread is here: http://www.facebook.com/djinn.nine/posts/10150584183241154?cmntid=10150584237161154
In particular, for those whose Thai is as poor as mine, this link is interesting and useful: http://sanpaworn.vissaventure.com/?id=243
Overall, I have to confess that the more I think about the 2005 speech, the less I understand it. Extracts of it taken out of context certainly seem to support the argument that King Bhumibol is opposed strict enforcement of the lese majeste laws, but when you look at the whole speech, other comments seem to suggest precisely the opposite. And some of it just seems utterly baffling.
Perhaps, as Thanong Khanthong often tells me, I am just not enlightened enough to fathom such lofty matters.
Name games and Myanmar
Hello–
I personally have tried to refer to the country as Myanmar ever since the name was recognized by the United Nations. I think that in terms of the appropriate name for a country in an international context, the United Nations is the most appropritate arbitrator. It is certainly not the ‘perfect’ setting, (one has but to think of the continued reference to ‘Democratic Kampuchea’ at the UN for over a decade following the ’79 ousting of the Khmer Rouge for a chilling example), but I think it by and large ‘the least bad’ way of coming to terms with a country’s name for international circulation.
R.
Dear Phayao, Thailand; Postcard from Singapore
Thanks for sharing this. As a ‘farang’ studying SE Asia affairs, I go through bouts of self-relfection along lines such as the above–interesting to hear a different perspective!
R.
Thailand’s political soldiers
I don’t wish to enter the debate as to whether the Thai military is more professional or less professional but soldiers who are paid to kill or be killed are professional in much the same ways that teachers who are paid to teach, no matter how well or how poorly, are paid to teach. I also suspect that when professional soldiers go to war they hope to win wars or at least win battles they participate in which reminds me of a well-educated US marine who had his balls blown off during the war in Vietnam saying well we won the battle I was in but now I have no balls!
The King Never Smiles?
@Jack Gibson- in response to your question about the flag the three colours represent ‘nation, religion,king’- a sacred trinity, if you like that That Thai people hold dear to them.
As to the subject of the king and in particular to this book i believe Handley makes relevant points in his criticism of the ‘democratic’ voice of Thailand. One man’s opinion should not obviously be taken as fact but the historical documentation is well researched none the less. What i find interesting (coming from an art history background) is the propaganda through art, film and various other mediums in Thailand are incredibly similar to those of totalitarian states of past and present. Look at how HM Bhumibol is represented and compare that to Mao, Lenin…even Kim Jong Il and there are incredible similarities.
These images i believe are not so much pro royalty, but perhaps more inclined to instill an absolute feudal submission to the royal family. Is this democratic……not in the least. Perhaps cementing a position as being a key political figure is more accurate.
Ah Kong and his family
[…] in late 2011 shocked Thais and made global headlines. On November 23, 61-year-old grandfather Ampon Tangnoppakul was sentenced to 20 years in prison for allegedly sending four SMS messages critical of Queen […]
Lese majeste: Royal perspectives
That’s about as good as it gets…
http://robinlea.com/pub/20051205-HMkingBhumipolsBirthdaySpeech.html
http://robinlea.com/pub/20051205-HMkingBhumipolsBirthdaySpeech-shorter.html
PPT said they’re looking for a (the?) Thai version.