Now you listen to me Feh Sah. This time I’ve really got you.
On the one hand you say that you have red hair. On the other hand you say that people call you blue.
Now let’s get one thing absolutely 100% straight. Red is not, never has been, and never will be blue. There is not one skerrick of evidence to the contrary. Hah! Got you!
Just who do you think you are promoting undemocratic and immoral falsehoods. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I completely agree with the tenor of your argument. Just a couple of small points, though:
First, the Shinawatras were successful at wooing voters some years before the birth of the red shirt movement. So you could say the red shirt movement was fuelled by the Shinawatras’ success; rather than the other way around. The better argument, though, is that they’ve probably used each other – with Thaksin funding the red shirt movement to secure a wedge in parliament (for his own ends); and the red shirts making hay for as long as big daddy is prepared to pay.
Second, I agree the red shirt movement will be watching Yingluk closely. But isn’t this evidence of my original point? The Shinawatras and the red shirts make very uncomfortable bedfellows indeed. They barely trust each other. It’s a marriage of convenience. The mistrust will only deepen as the red shirt movement grows stronger and is more able to mobilise and organise independently. Eventually, the red shirts will be strong enough to choose leaders from among their own ranks. The real Mandelas, Bikos and Guevaras may be growing among them even now. In the meantime, the crown sits uncomfortably on the Shinawatras’ heads.
Having woken up the peasants for his own ends, Thaksin will find it much harder to put them to bed again. I’m not sure the red shirts are organised enough to do it for themselves just yet; but they’re getting there quickly. For now, the best that can be said of them is that they have sparked an awareness among the poor of their plight – a critical nexus along the path towards a genuine popular uprising. Until then, the Shinawatras are the more powerful of the bedfellows.
And that’s why I believe Yingluk will keep 112 in place; or at least something very like it.
“…Corruption is a fact of life rather than a way of life. Put differently, corruption exists in Singapore but Singapore is not a corrupt society.”
Do you agree with the above statement?
The same cannot be said of Malaysia. Corruption is a way of life. Most Malaysians have participated in corruption (from bribing a cop not to give a ticket for illegal parking or speeding, to paying bribes to get projects, etc). Do you agree with this assessment?
Would you have any suggestion on how Malaysia can reduce corruption within the constraints you have suggested.
With a case in Ayuthaya, which raised a nick name to Yuth TooYen (frige)!. In an early morning polices surrounded a house in Ayuthya to crack down a drug dealer, bullets teared all the house down just to find out that the house belonged to a poor couple. The old lung (uncle) had to covered himself up in a refigerater to got survive from the shootings. This case was leaded by one of TRT leading member. After the dust settled down, there were hundred of bullets on the frige shell, poor uncle.
No one has made anything of the significance of The Magic Castle yet?
Making things disappear? Sleight of Hand? or just plain old misdirection? All used to good political effect in the Land of Smiles on a daily basis. I suspect an ISOC training centre in the basement. I think we should be told…
For many in the Phue Thai party, it is no doubt “business as usual” but they did come to power on the back of a populist movement – without the red shirts they would not have won the election.
However, the red shirts are not Yingluck’s to do with as she pleases. Nor are they simply Thaksin’s lackeys. Their leadership have made it very clear that they will be monitoring the government’s actions, and will without doubt cause problems for Yingluck if she seems to be short changing them. They are well organised, well supported, (not just in Isaan) and committed to achieving their goals. Watch this space, as they say!
R. N. England 60
“the institution of monarchy predates the evolution of human beings” Ouch!!
I say R.N. that’s a bit previous isn’t it? More Richard Dawkins or Charles Darwin than Sir James Fraser?
Could we settle for “predates the Age of Enlightenment” or I’d say The Great War was when the penny finally dropped for the western hemisphere. Asia’s a little trickier I agree.
Be careful with the sweeping statements or you’ll be eating out at Tony Carlucci’s (I hear the spaghetti sauce is excellent….)
I don’t think there’s the slightest chance of Article 112 being repealed. Phuea Thai seems to be trying to out-do the Democrats in their professed devotion to the monarchy and commitment to protecting the Institution as the cornerstone of national security.
Thank you, Andrew, for your carefully nuanced listing of all my short-comings: my failure to understand evidence or democracy, my tendency to immoral argument, and my lauding the Royal Thai Army as a force for democracy. It’s made my day.
And you deduced all of this from my belief that restrained responses by Swiss and Australian diplomats, in spite of public demands for strong action, led (sorry, let’s make that “contributed in some infinitely small way”) to the early release of Oliver Jufer and Harry Nicolaides (and yes, it may have included pointing out that a public confession and expression of contribution was a pre-requiesite for a royal pardon); my assessment that of all the coups d’etat in Thai modern history, only the first made any contribution to Thai democracy; my description of the Royal Thai Army as a last, unbalanced check in the Thai system of checks and balances (check the dictionary definition of the word “unbalanced”); and perhaps from my explanation of my Thai nickname. (Sorry, that was a response to a query from Ralph Kramden. My apologies. I should have ignored him. But it does make me instantly recognizable to my former staff college classmates.)
I would correct one small point. I think the current diplomatic concern about Phuket is about life-threatening physical asaults on tourists rather than extortion. But if I’m wrong, I’m sure you’ll let me known in your usual nuanced manner.
And so I conclude yet another amazingly thin, evidenceless and immoral comment.
Yours anonymously,
Seh Fah (or Bluey the Staff Officer, for those of you who don’t speak Thai).
Let us allow that Jim Taylor is correct and that ‘witchhunts’ will intesify in coming months. My own pessimistic prediction is that these would be much more violent in the absence of 112. Imagine for example the scenario in which rabid royalists sing anthem in theatre only for a few conscientious objectors to refuse to stand and join in. What is their fate under 112 and what might be their fate without it? Okay, we cannot be sure, but I have little doubt ‘popular justice’ – lynchings and the like – would be a very likely outcome.
Apart from the devolution to ‘popular justice’, and its inevitable acts of revenge, I just think the timing of this campaign is ill-thought and dangerous. For PT to get rid of 112 would be to sign their death-warrant. Arguably to do so would play directly into the royalists’ hands – providing them with perfect justification to return to power by whaterver means is necessary. It would bring them undone – for whatever the anti-112 sentiment is in the land, it still remains a minority view. The royalists would no-doubt rally the majority of the nation to their side and to oust PT. So the campaign is asking for PT to act suicidally.
Further, there is simply no logical reason for PT to get rid of 112. Once the succession to CP occurs, 112 will be used by PT just as its now being used by the ‘royalists’. This is the way the game works – the Reds are not yet a sufficiently weighty charachter to influence its outcome in comparison to the other key figures – military, Privy Council etc etc…
I don’t think that we should make a comparison between Malaysia and Singapore so quickly. For all the reasons why Malaysia should consult Singapore, there are reasons why it shouldn’t, reasons why it won’t, and reasons why there isn’t a point. Singapore is an island city state with a separate ethn0-nationalist project controlled by a single-party government may be sufficiently different for Malaysia which is a federation of geographically diverse negeri’s with exploitable natural resources (both a blessing and a curse), and ruled by a compromise between a coalition of partners parties. This is also an extremely optimistic view of Singapore: there are problems here in Singapore as well, and does not take into account the steps taken by Singapore and whether or not they would work in Malaysia.
it is heart warming to see some of my fellow academics starting to come on board after five years in a new proactive manner. They will not doubt have lots to say at the coming ISEAS Singapore conference. Many of these criticised me for being “biased” (against what?) , and that as anthropologist I should be errr…be objective. In a context of oppression and lack of middleground any pretense to scientific objectivity is repugnant when people’s lives are at stake.
“Those who have the good fortune to be able to devote their lives to the study of the social world cannot stand aside, neutral and indifferent, from the struggles in which the future of that world is at stake” (Pierre Bourdieu 2003 pp 11-12).
There are a number of issues which readers should be aware:
1. LM/112 (which red shirt activists have been fighting against for four years) has nothing to do with Yingluck’s government. The pressure on her is purposeful and part of a bigger plot by the regime to fail government (we give it six months maximum), and to increase pressure through the tyranny of 112/LM. It is not, as I said all along, a new government which can change the underlying problem in the current reign. 2. witchhunts will intensify over the next few months led by a group called “Love Father Practical Action”. These are mostly younger generation falangists who will come out to monitor facebooks (make charges using 112) clean grafiti on walls, take to the streets, sing king’s song in theatres and observe, aside from wjo does not stand up, who does not sing along, etc…Be aware: They are everywhere and have the support of the emplaced amaat at the judiciary and lackies in DSI. The military of course now do not have to do anything now. The judiciary will take it from here.
The reason why the King and all his toadies hate Thaksin, the key to Thailand’s troubles? Thaksin has eclipsed the King in popularity. Such is the state of Thailand’s political development: more like a squabbling troop of monkeys or a wolf-pack than a nation state. Thailand is a reminder that the institution of monarchy predates the evolution of human beings, and is no longer fit for them.
You previously stated – “Thaksin had systematically undermined virtually all of the checks and balances of a democratic system, leaving the army as the last unbalanced check.”
Obviously you fail to understand the concept of “evidence” adequately.
That failure is matched only by your inability to understand democracy.
Let’s get one thing absolutely straight – there is no evidence whatsoever that the Thai Army is any part of any kind of democratic system nor that it ever has been. Because they give you, as you described above, a cute nickname is entirely irrelevant.
You’re also engaging in sophistry – your point is that the Australian Embassy shouldn’t engage/or are unable to engage in anything other than quiet effective diplomacy when it considers the application of the Thai justice system, of which the police are a part, on Australian citizens. Yet, here they are creating a stink about extortion of tourists!
Why not with Joe, Harry etc? Why not make the same noises they do with ASSK? I mean she is not even Australian or American. Your entire argument is so thin, so evidenceless and so immoral it’s amazing you’d even find the nerve to make it in a public forum. But, there again, you are anonymous.
Yes, back to topic. This statement deserves attention: “The first possibility is that, as Anthony Chai’s legal complaint alleges, M. L. Anuporn Kasemsan did in fact meet with him as a representative of the palace. If this is true, then the oft-repeated claim that the Thai monarchy does not and indeed cannot participate in efforts to prosecute people for lèse majesté is now exposed as utter nonsense.” I’m not convinced this is the first evidence of this.
Does anyone really think that should 112 be removed that the ‘royalists’ wouldn’t continue to supress, but using even more underhanded, unaccountable, thuggish means?
That’s a reverse logic there, 112 is a “tool” of supression and not the other way around. If Japand and UK didnt go medival from not having 112, then so Thailand too can be the same.
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FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Feh Sah:
Now you listen to me Feh Sah. This time I’ve really got you.
On the one hand you say that you have red hair. On the other hand you say that people call you blue.
Now let’s get one thing absolutely 100% straight. Red is not, never has been, and never will be blue. There is not one skerrick of evidence to the contrary. Hah! Got you!
Just who do you think you are promoting undemocratic and immoral falsehoods. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Rood giddance!
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Robin
I completely agree with the tenor of your argument. Just a couple of small points, though:
First, the Shinawatras were successful at wooing voters some years before the birth of the red shirt movement. So you could say the red shirt movement was fuelled by the Shinawatras’ success; rather than the other way around. The better argument, though, is that they’ve probably used each other – with Thaksin funding the red shirt movement to secure a wedge in parliament (for his own ends); and the red shirts making hay for as long as big daddy is prepared to pay.
Second, I agree the red shirt movement will be watching Yingluk closely. But isn’t this evidence of my original point? The Shinawatras and the red shirts make very uncomfortable bedfellows indeed. They barely trust each other. It’s a marriage of convenience. The mistrust will only deepen as the red shirt movement grows stronger and is more able to mobilise and organise independently. Eventually, the red shirts will be strong enough to choose leaders from among their own ranks. The real Mandelas, Bikos and Guevaras may be growing among them even now. In the meantime, the crown sits uncomfortably on the Shinawatras’ heads.
Having woken up the peasants for his own ends, Thaksin will find it much harder to put them to bed again. I’m not sure the red shirts are organised enough to do it for themselves just yet; but they’re getting there quickly. For now, the best that can be said of them is that they have sparked an awareness among the poor of their plight – a critical nexus along the path towards a genuine popular uprising. Until then, the Shinawatras are the more powerful of the bedfellows.
And that’s why I believe Yingluk will keep 112 in place; or at least something very like it.
Corruption in Malaysia and Singapore
Thanks for sharing your view rockjianrock.
If I understand you correctly, your suggesting that:
(1) Malaysia should not & cannot follow Singapore (for several reasons you stated)
(2) Singapore itself has lots of corruption (but is hidden).
Jon S.T. Quah writes that:
Do you agree with the above statement?
The same cannot be said of Malaysia. Corruption is a way of life. Most Malaysians have participated in corruption (from bribing a cop not to give a ticket for illegal parking or speeding, to paying bribes to get projects, etc). Do you agree with this assessment?
Would you have any suggestion on how Malaysia can reduce corruption within the constraints you have suggested.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
I’m sure R.N. England will enjoy this: http://www.zenjournalist.com/2011/09/wanted-for-crimes-against-thailands-revered-monarchy/
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
Steve CM#51
With a case in Ayuthaya, which raised a nick name to Yuth TooYen (frige)!. In an early morning polices surrounded a house in Ayuthya to crack down a drug dealer, bullets teared all the house down just to find out that the house belonged to a poor couple. The old lung (uncle) had to covered himself up in a refigerater to got survive from the shootings. This case was leaded by one of TRT leading member. After the dust settled down, there were hundred of bullets on the frige shell, poor uncle.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
Billy Budd #61
I think R.N. England may have had “king of the beasts” in mind.
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
No one has made anything of the significance of The Magic Castle yet?
Making things disappear? Sleight of Hand? or just plain old misdirection? All used to good political effect in the Land of Smiles on a daily basis. I suspect an ISOC training centre in the basement. I think we should be told…
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Stuart – 3,
For many in the Phue Thai party, it is no doubt “business as usual” but they did come to power on the back of a populist movement – without the red shirts they would not have won the election.
However, the red shirts are not Yingluck’s to do with as she pleases. Nor are they simply Thaksin’s lackeys. Their leadership have made it very clear that they will be monitoring the government’s actions, and will without doubt cause problems for Yingluck if she seems to be short changing them. They are well organised, well supported, (not just in Isaan) and committed to achieving their goals. Watch this space, as they say!
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
R. N. England 60
“the institution of monarchy predates the evolution of human beings” Ouch!!
I say R.N. that’s a bit previous isn’t it? More Richard Dawkins or Charles Darwin than Sir James Fraser?
Could we settle for “predates the Age of Enlightenment” or I’d say The Great War was when the penny finally dropped for the western hemisphere. Asia’s a little trickier I agree.
Be careful with the sweeping statements or you’ll be eating out at Tony Carlucci’s (I hear the spaghetti sauce is excellent….)
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
billyd #20
I don’t think there’s the slightest chance of Article 112 being repealed. Phuea Thai seems to be trying to out-do the Democrats in their professed devotion to the monarchy and commitment to protecting the Institution as the cornerstone of national security.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Andrew Spooner #116
Thank you, Andrew, for your carefully nuanced listing of all my short-comings: my failure to understand evidence or democracy, my tendency to immoral argument, and my lauding the Royal Thai Army as a force for democracy. It’s made my day.
And you deduced all of this from my belief that restrained responses by Swiss and Australian diplomats, in spite of public demands for strong action, led (sorry, let’s make that “contributed in some infinitely small way”) to the early release of Oliver Jufer and Harry Nicolaides (and yes, it may have included pointing out that a public confession and expression of contribution was a pre-requiesite for a royal pardon); my assessment that of all the coups d’etat in Thai modern history, only the first made any contribution to Thai democracy; my description of the Royal Thai Army as a last, unbalanced check in the Thai system of checks and balances (check the dictionary definition of the word “unbalanced”); and perhaps from my explanation of my Thai nickname. (Sorry, that was a response to a query from Ralph Kramden. My apologies. I should have ignored him. But it does make me instantly recognizable to my former staff college classmates.)
I would correct one small point. I think the current diplomatic concern about Phuket is about life-threatening physical asaults on tourists rather than extortion. But if I’m wrong, I’m sure you’ll let me known in your usual nuanced manner.
And so I conclude yet another amazingly thin, evidenceless and immoral comment.
Yours anonymously,
Seh Fah (or Bluey the Staff Officer, for those of you who don’t speak Thai).
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Let us allow that Jim Taylor is correct and that ‘witchhunts’ will intesify in coming months. My own pessimistic prediction is that these would be much more violent in the absence of 112. Imagine for example the scenario in which rabid royalists sing anthem in theatre only for a few conscientious objectors to refuse to stand and join in. What is their fate under 112 and what might be their fate without it? Okay, we cannot be sure, but I have little doubt ‘popular justice’ – lynchings and the like – would be a very likely outcome.
Apart from the devolution to ‘popular justice’, and its inevitable acts of revenge, I just think the timing of this campaign is ill-thought and dangerous. For PT to get rid of 112 would be to sign their death-warrant. Arguably to do so would play directly into the royalists’ hands – providing them with perfect justification to return to power by whaterver means is necessary. It would bring them undone – for whatever the anti-112 sentiment is in the land, it still remains a minority view. The royalists would no-doubt rally the majority of the nation to their side and to oust PT. So the campaign is asking for PT to act suicidally.
Further, there is simply no logical reason for PT to get rid of 112. Once the succession to CP occurs, 112 will be used by PT just as its now being used by the ‘royalists’. This is the way the game works – the Reds are not yet a sufficiently weighty charachter to influence its outcome in comparison to the other key figures – military, Privy Council etc etc…
Corruption in Malaysia and Singapore
I don’t think that we should make a comparison between Malaysia and Singapore so quickly. For all the reasons why Malaysia should consult Singapore, there are reasons why it shouldn’t, reasons why it won’t, and reasons why there isn’t a point. Singapore is an island city state with a separate ethn0-nationalist project controlled by a single-party government may be sufficiently different for Malaysia which is a federation of geographically diverse negeri’s with exploitable natural resources (both a blessing and a curse), and ruled by a compromise between a coalition of partners parties. This is also an extremely optimistic view of Singapore: there are problems here in Singapore as well, and does not take into account the steps taken by Singapore and whether or not they would work in Malaysia.
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
it is heart warming to see some of my fellow academics starting to come on board after five years in a new proactive manner. They will not doubt have lots to say at the coming ISEAS Singapore conference. Many of these criticised me for being “biased” (against what?) , and that as anthropologist I should be errr…be objective. In a context of oppression and lack of middleground any pretense to scientific objectivity is repugnant when people’s lives are at stake.
“Those who have the good fortune to be able to devote their lives to the study of the social world cannot stand aside, neutral and indifferent, from the struggles in which the future of that world is at stake” (Pierre Bourdieu 2003 pp 11-12).
There are a number of issues which readers should be aware:
1. LM/112 (which red shirt activists have been fighting against for four years) has nothing to do with Yingluck’s government. The pressure on her is purposeful and part of a bigger plot by the regime to fail government (we give it six months maximum), and to increase pressure through the tyranny of 112/LM. It is not, as I said all along, a new government which can change the underlying problem in the current reign. 2. witchhunts will intensify over the next few months led by a group called “Love Father Practical Action”. These are mostly younger generation falangists who will come out to monitor facebooks (make charges using 112) clean grafiti on walls, take to the streets, sing king’s song in theatres and observe, aside from wjo does not stand up, who does not sing along, etc…Be aware: They are everywhere and have the support of the emplaced amaat at the judiciary and lackies in DSI. The military of course now do not have to do anything now. The judiciary will take it from here.
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Link to Zenjournalist’s just-released piece on Thailand and Lese Majeste:
http://www.zenjournalist.com/2011/09/wanted-for-crimes-against-thailands-revered-monarchy/
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
The reason why the King and all his toadies hate Thaksin, the key to Thailand’s troubles? Thaksin has eclipsed the King in popularity. Such is the state of Thailand’s political development: more like a squabbling troop of monkeys or a wolf-pack than a nation state. Thailand is a reminder that the institution of monarchy predates the evolution of human beings, and is no longer fit for them.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah
You previously stated – “Thaksin had systematically undermined virtually all of the checks and balances of a democratic system, leaving the army as the last unbalanced check.”
Obviously you fail to understand the concept of “evidence” adequately.
That failure is matched only by your inability to understand democracy.
Let’s get one thing absolutely straight – there is no evidence whatsoever that the Thai Army is any part of any kind of democratic system nor that it ever has been. Because they give you, as you described above, a cute nickname is entirely irrelevant.
You’re also engaging in sophistry – your point is that the Australian Embassy shouldn’t engage/or are unable to engage in anything other than quiet effective diplomacy when it considers the application of the Thai justice system, of which the police are a part, on Australian citizens. Yet, here they are creating a stink about extortion of tourists!
Why not with Joe, Harry etc? Why not make the same noises they do with ASSK? I mean she is not even Australian or American. Your entire argument is so thin, so evidenceless and so immoral it’s amazing you’d even find the nerve to make it in a public forum. But, there again, you are anonymous.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
Darren Nelson #58
>>then we hear from cables this: “Thaksin told him he knew the king hated him”
Ah, but in a legit democracy system, should that matter? Since he know that the people love him. Food for thought.
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Yes, back to topic. This statement deserves attention: “The first possibility is that, as Anthony Chai’s legal complaint alleges, M. L. Anuporn Kasemsan did in fact meet with him as a representative of the palace. If this is true, then the oft-repeated claim that the Thai monarchy does not and indeed cannot participate in efforts to prosecute people for lèse majesté is now exposed as utter nonsense.” I’m not convinced this is the first evidence of this.
One I quickly found was the case of Bundith Arniya, listed at LM Watch (in Thai) and PPT:
http://lmwatch.blogspot.com/2009/05/50-17-2550-24-2549-lm-watch-22-2546.html
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/pendingcases/bundith-arniya/
I would like to hear from others on the intervention of the household.
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
billyd – 15
Does anyone really think that should 112 be removed that the ‘royalists’ wouldn’t continue to supress, but using even more underhanded, unaccountable, thuggish means?
That’s a reverse logic there, 112 is a “tool” of supression and not the other way around. If Japand and UK didnt go medival from not having 112, then so Thailand too can be the same.