Maybe it is because of Sansakrit which is the origin of each word.,
Example Kaseamsanta is from santa which mean happy buy we not speak ta out. Moreover with this spelling we might know how to write it in THai more precise.
It looks to me that certain “deals” are done between the “dual state” parties and that is what I believe happened with the WOD-Tak Bai-ect.It’s getting more and more obvious now how royal meddling is interfering with goverment. And as Abhisit and Thaksin have both found to their own detriment,it is only they who are named and blamed by human rights groups.We learn through wikileaks and political whispers (eg Shawn Crispin) that the Queen sees herself as the protector of Thailand and it’s territory.And the weak king hides behind hospital walls but signs and backs coupmakers and extra judicial policies.I would imagine the queen wants the Yingluck goverment to continue with her policies of brute force and un-accountability,especially in the South.How long before a human rights group dares to ask the role of the monarchy in past state crimes……It’s all so ridiculous really. Everyone says they love the monarchy,…then we hear from cables this: “Thaksin told him he knew the king hated him”
Wow this thread got off topic really quick. Personally I have long believed in Seh Fah’s ““baffle the farang” plot” concerning romanisation. Only Thais should understand Thai.
But back to the topic at hand, thanks to Ralph#1 for the PPT link leading to some great potential headlines ;
“I think my husband [King Bhumipol] may be a Mormon”
“I [Princess Chulabhorn ] feel half Israeli”
And “HRH Princess Chulabhorn gives Donny Osmond some dancing lessons”
Its a shame really that Thailand lacks a press free enough to milk these gems in the way the ex-News of the World would have done.
but that is the point exactly – this is an infantile land, and the most senior of people are also the most childish. There is no ‘acceptance of criticism’ in Thailand – it is a land with an almost all-pervasive inability for self-reflection let alone self-criticism. Its all about face and the maintenance thereof.
Does anyone really think that should 112 be removed that the ‘royalists’ wouldn’t continue to supress, but using even more underhanded, unaccountable, thuggish means? The problem is not 112 but the culture that undergirds it – and that is not about to change any time soo. In fact, I would argue that it is intensifying with ever greater flows of money circulating and people desperate to get their hands upon it…
You’re quite right, of course. As much as I like the consistency of the GST, I have to admit that there is really no alternative to going along with their preferred IST spelling. They’re their names, after all, and we have to respect their choice. The problem, when working from Thai language material, is finding out just how everyone chooses to spell his own name. Unfortunately, the IST is not only idiosyncratic, but often inconsistent as well. I have business cards, received in person from a former Thai supreme commander, one with his name spelt as Sunthorn Khongsomphong and the other as Soondhara Kongsompong. I suspect that reflects two different underlings being ordered to have new cards printed for him, with the romnanisation left to the whim of the printer. Or maybe part of a sinister “baffle the farang” plot.
Nice explanation. The reason I brought it up is because it makes a difference when searching on Google. While Kasemsan return almost nothing significant, his “official” spelling returns a lot of information. So I think it makes sense to use Kashemsant.
Regarding criminal defamation please look at the latest post about Robert Amsterdam: http://www.newmandala.org/2011/08/29/amsterdam-on-thailands-dual-state/#comments
Where SJ says “he published a detailed piece about the crushing of the opposition and civil liberties by the Singapore government”. A key weapon in the crushing was the defamation cases brought by Lee Kwan Yew to bankrupt the opposition.
I doubt Yingluck or Thaksin would be happy to have Mr Amsterdam put them in the same class as the little dictator of Singapore and might be amenable to coming out as defenders of free speech. So let us openly ask them to take on this new role. Let’s face it nothing that could be said about Peur Thai and co. would be more obnoxious than the daily rubbish in the Bangkok Post.
I prefer the GST. Friday is Wan Suk (Jing-jing loey!) And Andrew Bigg’s should call his column Sanuk, not Sanook.
Suriyon Raiwa #6
I believe the PST is basically the system developed by King Rama VI and used by the old so-called elite who liked to have their offspring educated in Europe, whereas the GST was developed to reflect the more phonetic simplified spelling instituted by (for a while at least) Field Marshal Phibun Songkhram, and is preferred by those of more revolutionary inclination.
Hence you have Abhisit Vejjajiva (PST), but not Aphisit Wetchachiwa (GST); and Yingluck Shinawatra (IST), but not Yinglak Chinawat (GST). And Kasemsan is pure GST.
Of course, the GST does not indicate length of vowel or tone (neither does the PST or IST), so the system is not much good as an alternative to Thai script. For example, chang could mean weigh or elephant; klai could mean near or far. It’s very good as a consistent means of transcribing Thai names into English, but there’s no realistic hope of it every replacing the IST. Na sia day.
Many thanks to “Seh Fah” for his very instructive comment. It clears up a few things about which I had long wondered.
One further question for him or her: any idea why it is that the PST seems to be favored by Thailand’s self-styled elites (and by those with elite pretensions)?
And a further comment: in fact, when on 16 April 2458 King Wachirawut/Vajiravudh bestowed this surname on one of Mr Anuphon/Anuporn’s ancestors, the king specified that its transliteration was to be “Kashemsanta.” Over time, the family would seem to have decided to modify this PST transliteration by dropping the final “a”. This stands in contrast to most makers of maps and street signs, who use “Kasemsan” for the names of the sois of that name opposite the National Stadium in Pathumwan. (Unclear how much of the land there might still belong to the Kasemsan/Kashemsant/Kashemsanta family.)
Yes, there is a reason behind the “misspelling” of Anuphorn’s last name: the three different systems for transcribing Thai into English, as follows:
1. The Precise System of Transcription (PST), a literal system of one English letter for each Thai letter, which gives us spellings such as Singha beer or Suvarnabhumi Airport.
2. The General System of Transcription (GST), a phonetic system of one English letter for each Thai sound, which would give us a spelling such as Sing beer or Suwanaphum Airport.
3. The Idiosyncratic System of Transcription (IST), whereby the individual is free to randomly select elements of the PST and/or the GST, add a little of his own personal preference, and then vary it at will. As in the different spellings of Soi Phiphat/Pipat/Phiphath that one encounters on the street signs while strolling down the soi.
I’m curious to know how the learned signatories envisage a post-112 world to look and funtion? Beyond the utopian fantasies of democracy and free speech (this being Thailand after all) is it not possible, if not likely, that the removal of 112 would simply lead to extra-legal suppression of supposed offences, in turn generating greater hostility from those affected? It may be that 112 – as odious as it is – is one of the necessary planks needed at this fractious moment to mitigate all out war between the various parties involved (I’m honestly not even sure how to categorise ‘sides’ at the present time…).
I just think that it is too easy to sign these letters without giving serious consideration to the possible outcomes – the road to hell being paved with good intentions and all that…
I hope you’re not suggesting that British, Australian, Austrian, German, Dutch and Swedish diplomats should ignore extortion and attacks on tourists, and concentrate all of their efforts on LM cases. On the other hand, if their efforts are going to be totally ineffective anyway, it doesn’t really matter what they do, does it?
Although I agree that the US government should be working harder to bring Joe Gordon back home, I think you overestimate the power/competency of US diplomacy. It did take over 2 and 1/2 years to get Bout out of Thailand and to the US.
It is one thing to dispute Amsterdam’s analysis of the situation in Thailand but quite another to describe him as a big-bucks PR man. He’s done much to help the cause (often on a pro-bono basis) in many jurisdictions where anti-democratic practices remain entrenched.
For example he published a detailed piece about the crushing of the opposition and civil liberties by the Singapore government, and helped give a much needed airing on the political situation in the city-state. No big-bucks involved. Indeed, no bucks involved.
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Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Maybe it is because of Sansakrit which is the origin of each word.,
Example Kaseamsanta is from santa which mean happy buy we not speak ta out. Moreover with this spelling we might know how to write it in THai more precise.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
It looks to me that certain “deals” are done between the “dual state” parties and that is what I believe happened with the WOD-Tak Bai-ect.It’s getting more and more obvious now how royal meddling is interfering with goverment. And as Abhisit and Thaksin have both found to their own detriment,it is only they who are named and blamed by human rights groups.We learn through wikileaks and political whispers (eg Shawn Crispin) that the Queen sees herself as the protector of Thailand and it’s territory.And the weak king hides behind hospital walls but signs and backs coupmakers and extra judicial policies.I would imagine the queen wants the Yingluck goverment to continue with her policies of brute force and un-accountability,especially in the South.How long before a human rights group dares to ask the role of the monarchy in past state crimes……It’s all so ridiculous really. Everyone says they love the monarchy,…then we hear from cables this: “Thaksin told him he knew the king hated him”
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Wow this thread got off topic really quick. Personally I have long believed in Seh Fah’s ““baffle the farang” plot” concerning romanisation. Only Thais should understand Thai.
But back to the topic at hand, thanks to Ralph#1 for the PPT link leading to some great potential headlines ;
“I think my husband [King Bhumipol] may be a Mormon”
“I [Princess Chulabhorn ] feel half Israeli”
And “HRH Princess Chulabhorn gives Donny Osmond some dancing lessons”
Its a shame really that Thailand lacks a press free enough to milk these gems in the way the ex-News of the World would have done.
More fruit cake anyone?
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
I note the first reports of a new LM arrest, the first we know of under the new government:
http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/2749
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/first-known-lese-majeste-arrest-under-yingluck-government/
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Nganadeeleg,
but that is the point exactly – this is an infantile land, and the most senior of people are also the most childish. There is no ‘acceptance of criticism’ in Thailand – it is a land with an almost all-pervasive inability for self-reflection let alone self-criticism. Its all about face and the maintenance thereof.
Does anyone really think that should 112 be removed that the ‘royalists’ wouldn’t continue to supress, but using even more underhanded, unaccountable, thuggish means? The problem is not 112 but the culture that undergirds it – and that is not about to change any time soo. In fact, I would argue that it is intensifying with ever greater flows of money circulating and people desperate to get their hands upon it…
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Thanks, Seh Fah. Eager to hear more from you on topics like this, though do note that GST would be “Chinnawat” and “Suwannaphum.”
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Chris L #9
You’re quite right, of course. As much as I like the consistency of the GST, I have to admit that there is really no alternative to going along with their preferred IST spelling. They’re their names, after all, and we have to respect their choice. The problem, when working from Thai language material, is finding out just how everyone chooses to spell his own name. Unfortunately, the IST is not only idiosyncratic, but often inconsistent as well. I have business cards, received in person from a former Thai supreme commander, one with his name spelt as Sunthorn Khongsomphong and the other as Soondhara Kongsompong. I suspect that reflects two different underlings being ordered to have new cards printed for him, with the romnanisation left to the whim of the printer. Or maybe part of a sinister “baffle the farang” plot.
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Billyd: How about the royalists just grow up?
ie. Accept criticism, and overlook (or laugh at) childish mockery.
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Seh Fah #4
Nice explanation. The reason I brought it up is because it makes a difference when searching on Google. While Kasemsan return almost nothing significant, his “official” spelling returns a lot of information. So I think it makes sense to use Kashemsant.
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Regarding criminal defamation please look at the latest post about Robert Amsterdam:
http://www.newmandala.org/2011/08/29/amsterdam-on-thailands-dual-state/#comments
Where SJ says “he published a detailed piece about the crushing of the opposition and civil liberties by the Singapore government”. A key weapon in the crushing was the defamation cases brought by Lee Kwan Yew to bankrupt the opposition.
I doubt Yingluck or Thaksin would be happy to have Mr Amsterdam put them in the same class as the little dictator of Singapore and might be amenable to coming out as defenders of free speech. So let us openly ask them to take on this new role. Let’s face it nothing that could be said about Peur Thai and co. would be more obnoxious than the daily rubbish in the Bangkok Post.
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Cliff Sloane #5.
I prefer the GST. Friday is Wan Suk (Jing-jing loey!) And Andrew Bigg’s should call his column Sanuk, not Sanook.
Suriyon Raiwa #6
I believe the PST is basically the system developed by King Rama VI and used by the old so-called elite who liked to have their offspring educated in Europe, whereas the GST was developed to reflect the more phonetic simplified spelling instituted by (for a while at least) Field Marshal Phibun Songkhram, and is preferred by those of more revolutionary inclination.
Hence you have Abhisit Vejjajiva (PST), but not Aphisit Wetchachiwa (GST); and Yingluck Shinawatra (IST), but not Yinglak Chinawat (GST). And Kasemsan is pure GST.
Of course, the GST does not indicate length of vowel or tone (neither does the PST or IST), so the system is not much good as an alternative to Thai script. For example, chang could mean weigh or elephant; klai could mean near or far. It’s very good as a consistent means of transcribing Thai names into English, but there’s no realistic hope of it every replacing the IST. Na sia day.
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
I notice his Facebook interests include the Vote No group.
I’m sure he’s supporting PAD in a purely private capacity…
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Many thanks to “Seh Fah” for his very instructive comment. It clears up a few things about which I had long wondered.
One further question for him or her: any idea why it is that the PST seems to be favored by Thailand’s self-styled elites (and by those with elite pretensions)?
And a further comment: in fact, when on 16 April 2458 King Wachirawut/Vajiravudh bestowed this surname on one of Mr Anuphon/Anuporn’s ancestors, the king specified that its transliteration was to be “Kashemsanta.” Over time, the family would seem to have decided to modify this PST transliteration by dropping the final “a”. This stands in contrast to most makers of maps and street signs, who use “Kasemsan” for the names of the sois of that name opposite the National Stadium in Pathumwan. (Unclear how much of the land there might still belong to the Kasemsan/Kashemsant/Kashemsanta family.)
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
eh fah,
Very amusing explanation. How, then, would you spell the thai word for Friday? Would it be Shukra? Sukra? Sukr? Sook?
All those darn karans! Give me headache jjing jing loei!
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Chris L #3
Yes, there is a reason behind the “misspelling” of Anuphorn’s last name: the three different systems for transcribing Thai into English, as follows:
1. The Precise System of Transcription (PST), a literal system of one English letter for each Thai letter, which gives us spellings such as Singha beer or Suvarnabhumi Airport.
2. The General System of Transcription (GST), a phonetic system of one English letter for each Thai sound, which would give us a spelling such as Sing beer or Suwanaphum Airport.
3. The Idiosyncratic System of Transcription (IST), whereby the individual is free to randomly select elements of the PST and/or the GST, add a little of his own personal preference, and then vary it at will. As in the different spellings of Soi Phiphat/Pipat/Phiphath that one encounters on the street signs while strolling down the soi.
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
I’m curious to know how the learned signatories envisage a post-112 world to look and funtion? Beyond the utopian fantasies of democracy and free speech (this being Thailand after all) is it not possible, if not likely, that the removal of 112 would simply lead to extra-legal suppression of supposed offences, in turn generating greater hostility from those affected? It may be that 112 – as odious as it is – is one of the necessary planks needed at this fractious moment to mitigate all out war between the various parties involved (I’m honestly not even sure how to categorise ‘sides’ at the present time…).
I just think that it is too easy to sign these letters without giving serious consideration to the possible outcomes – the road to hell being paved with good intentions and all that…
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Andrew Spooner #110
I hope you’re not suggesting that British, Australian, Austrian, German, Dutch and Swedish diplomats should ignore extortion and attacks on tourists, and concentrate all of their efforts on LM cases. On the other hand, if their efforts are going to be totally ineffective anyway, it doesn’t really matter what they do, does it?
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Any particular reason behind the misspelling of Anuporn’s last name?
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Andrew #111
Although I agree that the US government should be working harder to bring Joe Gordon back home, I think you overestimate the power/competency of US diplomacy. It did take over 2 and 1/2 years to get Bout out of Thailand and to the US.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
It is one thing to dispute Amsterdam’s analysis of the situation in Thailand but quite another to describe him as a big-bucks PR man. He’s done much to help the cause (often on a pro-bono basis) in many jurisdictions where anti-democratic practices remain entrenched.
For example he published a detailed piece about the crushing of the opposition and civil liberties by the Singapore government, and helped give a much needed airing on the political situation in the city-state. No big-bucks involved. Indeed, no bucks involved.