CT – How can you prove that they are not sincere about that they said ? Or you actually believe that anyone who hear someone said bad things about the K will inform the police ???
You also assume that I do not know what others point out about the rough successions in the past just because I did not mention them here. Perhaps they belong in the “less smooth” part of what I said ??
This “debate” is getting boring. For one, I am happy to take Seh Fah’s comments about Australian embassy representations as one element in what is a very complex mix. At the time of Harry’s arrest and trial I was an outspoken critic of the Australian government’s low-key approach to the issue. Naturally, I had some doubts about the position I was taking (though I stand by it and would do it again), worrying about possible adverse impacts on Harry’s position. I was open to the possibility that behind the scenes action was underway and I hoped that it may have some positive effect. Seh Fah’s comments indicate that such action was taken and that it may have helped secure Harry’s earlier release. Of course we cannot put too much confidence in anonymous comments, but as I note above, I am happy to treat it as another piece in a very complicated jigsaw puzzle. Seh Fah’s comments are also consistent with what a trusted member of the Australian government told me. I don’t think comparisons with other cases are particularly useful (this is not some sort of controlled experiment). I imagine that each case is surrounded by all sorts of complex and specific micro-politics and negotiations. Seh Fah has provided some hints about some of the dealings behind Harry’s case. I welcome that. It is no confirmation that one approach to lese majeste charges is better than another, but it is exactly the sort of “local knowledge” that we are happy to host on New Mandala.
Sorry but your “evidence” just doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
Suwicha Thakor admitted his guilt, begged for forgiveness etc and was released.
He is a Thai national.
Nothing to do with Australia. At all.
I am sure some people at the Australian Embassy are horrified by LM laws and Thailand’s cyclical use of massacre and coup – but quite clearly “quiet effective diplomacy” has proven useless in the face of all this.
Western diplomats haven’t been so supine in the face of Burmese repression why should they be so insipid in the face of similar circumstances in Thailand?
Ernst Fraenkel’s “Doppelstaat” was an analysis of Germany’s Nazi regime. Since the Nazi’s had abolished the rule of law, they needed some normative structures (den “Normenstaat”) that would enable the capitalist economy to function. The “Massnahmenstaat” (prerogative state of illegality and injustice) on the other hand, was directed at the enemies of the Nazi regime.
Hard to imagine how Fraenkel could be used for an analysis of the Thai hybrid political system…
I’ve always thought of politics as the process of deciding who makes the decisions, and democracy as perhaps the best means of adding a little decorum to the process.
The first Thai (sorry, Siamese) coup d’etat, back in 1932, was probably a good thing because at least it initiated the transition from absolute monarchy to democracy under a constitutional monarch. A bit more difficult to say anything particularly positive about any of those that followed.
#14 Do we seriously believe that it is only the RTA that ‘takes’ here? It strikes me we have some posters here whose ability to address the entire issue is hamstrung by their team allegiances to other successionist contenders. Surely, Ai Lerm’s whole purpose in this government is to cut his fellow corrupt cops a piece of the exchequer action, use cop casinos as his excuse to put a Damaphong in charge of the RTP and put a Chaiyasit-friendly man in charge of the RTA. As a paid contractor, Amsterdam has no interest in these issues. When Robert drops his connection to the desperado, he might then be worth heeding.
To be qualified to check government in a democracy an opposition must show support for democracy first and foremost. The Dems by making mealy mouthed comments rather than unconditionally opposing the coup and then doing the deal to put the coalition together rather than demanding an election abbrogated their right to be in a position to check anything. It is going to take ages for them to right this wrong. If you want to be a viable party in a democracy you have to first and foremost believe in democracy and trust its institutions
In the meantime, short of the PTP and reds splitting, Thailand will see a continued period of Thaksin party government whatever name the party has unless of course a coup comes along, but there really isnt any support for that except in the very small percentage of true anti-Thaksinistas and it would result in utter chaos.
Traffic in Bangkok improved, huge infrastructure projects were approved and built including the BTS, The Ring Roads, a new Airport, a Metro.
Hate to quibble, but not entirely true. The BTS was already opened before Thaksin was elected. Many road improvements in the city were the initiatives of governors Bhichai and Samak. The Metro was also the initiative of an earlier government, and was already nearly complete when Thaksin was first elected.
The airport was also started before Thaksin, but he did play a role in speeding it up. For better or for worse.
And most importantly he was able to bring health care to the masses especially the rural inhabitants of farming communities.
I won’t quibble with this. Thaksin was more effective in efforts targeting the needs of the rural majority than he was in addressing urban issues. Had he tackled problems like urban crime and traffic, his once-broad support among urban voters might not have dissipated so quickly after the Shin sale. IIRC, TRT alienated many of their urban voters after they appeared to flip-flop on their 2005 campaign promise to extend mass transit to outlying areas of Bangkok just a few months after that election.
Then please pray tell what is written in the requirements that you object to. Please enlighten all the readers here what you think is so wrong. Maybe we can discuss the facts first. Examine the evidence and then make a conclusion base on the facts presented.
Lets assume that we don’t know what you’re talking about because so far you have not presented any facts. You’re just making assumption base on what you perceive everyone knows. Please enlighten this subject matter further by presenting data, or any sort of link that all the readers may know what you are referring to.
Another evidence of “The Ambulance Chasers Anonymous” of the western democracies trying hard to expand their turf aka profitability.
Snell & Wilmer is no plaintiffs firm, or bunch of ambulance chasers. They are a well-respected business law firm in the western US. Like other large corporate law firms, they do plaintiffs work on the side pro bono (that is, for free) for causes that the attorneys believe in. This is one of those instances. I happen to think that Snell has taken on a good cause. You may think that their misrepresentation is misguided, but I don’t think you have any grounds for questioning the sincerity of their motives. They’re certainly not doing this for the money.
So what were the comments that attracted the attention of the Thai authorities?
Even in the complaint they never state what was said. I think that is an important part of the case, but as usual in these anti-LM articles, they never say what was actually written.
Just go to the link above, and indeed there are intelligent rational discussions of expressing concern about issues in Thailand. These are mixed in with childish, outrageously insulting comments and images. It is very likely that similar postings got Mr Chai into trouble, not the comments expressing “ concern with Thailand’s lese majesté laws”.
I do think the LM laws in Thailand need a serious review, but let’s be sure people understand what comments are being prosecuted and when a case is being made for freedom of expression of political views, people understand exactly what kind of comments they are defending.
When an Australian citizen is arrested in Thailand it is the responsibility of the embassy’s consular section to try to ensure that they are treated fairly according to Thai law.
In Harry’s case, the embassy lobbied successfully for a royal pardon. As I said before (#56), a pre-condition for the granting of a pardon is that the miscreant/victim (delete the description you disagree with) publicly expresses contrition, apologises, begs forgiveness, promises never to do it again, and expresses gratitude for the king’s benevolence. This was made perfectly clear to Harry by his Thai lawyer, who was retained with embassy assistance.
I was not a member of the consulate staff and so I was not directly involved, but I did discuss the case with those who were and I know the effort that went into getting Harry pardoned. To say that he was released for no other reason than “the simple fact he admitted his guilt and begged for forgiveness” and that “it wasn’t back room negotiations that freed him” is incorrect. Without embassy involvement, he would in all likelihood still be in gaol.
Joe, Somyot, Da Torpedo and others are Thai citizens and the Australian embassy’s consular staff cannot become involved. They were charged under a Thai law which neither the previous Democrat Government nor the current Phuea Thai Government have any intention of amending. I doubt very much that simply admitting their guilt and begging for forgiveness would free any of them.
Finally, please remember that I was talking about freeing one Australian citizen on lese majeste charges, not about trying to reform a draconian human rights abusing regime with polite requests.
If you would like to take the discussion a little further, please let me know of your next trip to Bangkok and we can do so over a beer at the FCCT.
One is talking sense if he admires the beauty of the language of Khun Chaang Khun Phaen. Thai verse is among the world’s best, I am sure, but a lot of it must be lost in translation, no matter how ingenious a translator is.
Seh Fah: Damn, I wish I hadn’t included that last sentence: Tell us more…? It distracted you from the questions. I thought you’d know, because you said: “I was employed at the embassy throughout the Nocolaides saga. I know from personal observation the effort that was put into securing Harry’s early (make that very early – a six-year sentence was reduced to six months) release…”. You see, I thought you were speaking from personal involvement. But now you say, “I understand the embassy concentrated on…”. So I was mistaken and you are not a first-hand participant. Sorry.
This is intriguing. If anyone has further details on these handsets then I’m sure the New Mandala readers following this issue will be excited to learn more. That somebody has decided to start seriously leap-frogging the available technology, by looking to mobile Internet telephony, is not so surprising. But that it is happening in 2011, when so much else is still up for grabs, is interesting indeed.
Now they have in Yangon Chinese handsets with Skype and web access but no camera, very good audio I gather. Can the authorities readily acquire the technology to monitor and police or disable Skype effectively ? They were trying to ban it in cyber cafes only recently as an unwelcome competition to their very expensive international calls. Interesting development.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Thailand’s succession planning
CT – How can you prove that they are not sincere about that they said ? Or you actually believe that anyone who hear someone said bad things about the K will inform the police ???
You also assume that I do not know what others point out about the rough successions in the past just because I did not mention them here. Perhaps they belong in the “less smooth” part of what I said ??
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
This “debate” is getting boring. For one, I am happy to take Seh Fah’s comments about Australian embassy representations as one element in what is a very complex mix. At the time of Harry’s arrest and trial I was an outspoken critic of the Australian government’s low-key approach to the issue. Naturally, I had some doubts about the position I was taking (though I stand by it and would do it again), worrying about possible adverse impacts on Harry’s position. I was open to the possibility that behind the scenes action was underway and I hoped that it may have some positive effect. Seh Fah’s comments indicate that such action was taken and that it may have helped secure Harry’s earlier release. Of course we cannot put too much confidence in anonymous comments, but as I note above, I am happy to treat it as another piece in a very complicated jigsaw puzzle. Seh Fah’s comments are also consistent with what a trusted member of the Australian government told me. I don’t think comparisons with other cases are particularly useful (this is not some sort of controlled experiment). I imagine that each case is surrounded by all sorts of complex and specific micro-politics and negotiations. Seh Fah has provided some hints about some of the dealings behind Harry’s case. I welcome that. It is no confirmation that one approach to lese majeste charges is better than another, but it is exactly the sort of “local knowledge” that we are happy to host on New Mandala.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah
Sorry but your “evidence” just doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
Suwicha Thakor admitted his guilt, begged for forgiveness etc and was released.
He is a Thai national.
Nothing to do with Australia. At all.
I am sure some people at the Australian Embassy are horrified by LM laws and Thailand’s cyclical use of massacre and coup – but quite clearly “quiet effective diplomacy” has proven useless in the face of all this.
Western diplomats haven’t been so supine in the face of Burmese repression why should they be so insipid in the face of similar circumstances in Thailand?
Jakrapob on the state within the state
[…] р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕ар╕Ю р╣Ар╕Юр╣Зр╕Нр╣Бр╕В р╣Ар╕гр╕╡р╕вр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Лр╣Йр╕нр╕Щ”) […]
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
Offshore Oilfield #20
I disgree with the “whole purpose” assessment. Surely advancing the careers of Luk Ai Lerm are also among his priorities, not just hs fellow cops.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
Ernst Fraenkel’s “Doppelstaat” was an analysis of Germany’s Nazi regime. Since the Nazi’s had abolished the rule of law, they needed some normative structures (den “Normenstaat”) that would enable the capitalist economy to function. The “Massnahmenstaat” (prerogative state of illegality and injustice) on the other hand, was directed at the enemies of the Nazi regime.
Hard to imagine how Fraenkel could be used for an analysis of the Thai hybrid political system…
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
Nobody #19
I’ve always thought of politics as the process of deciding who makes the decisions, and democracy as perhaps the best means of adding a little decorum to the process.
The first Thai (sorry, Siamese) coup d’etat, back in 1932, was probably a good thing because at least it initiated the transition from absolute monarchy to democracy under a constitutional monarch. A bit more difficult to say anything particularly positive about any of those that followed.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
#14 Do we seriously believe that it is only the RTA that ‘takes’ here? It strikes me we have some posters here whose ability to address the entire issue is hamstrung by their team allegiances to other successionist contenders. Surely, Ai Lerm’s whole purpose in this government is to cut his fellow corrupt cops a piece of the exchequer action, use cop casinos as his excuse to put a Damaphong in charge of the RTP and put a Chaiyasit-friendly man in charge of the RTA. As a paid contractor, Amsterdam has no interest in these issues. When Robert drops his connection to the desperado, he might then be worth heeding.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
C6 Seh Fah
To be qualified to check government in a democracy an opposition must show support for democracy first and foremost. The Dems by making mealy mouthed comments rather than unconditionally opposing the coup and then doing the deal to put the coalition together rather than demanding an election abbrogated their right to be in a position to check anything. It is going to take ages for them to right this wrong. If you want to be a viable party in a democracy you have to first and foremost believe in democracy and trust its institutions
In the meantime, short of the PTP and reds splitting, Thailand will see a continued period of Thaksin party government whatever name the party has unless of course a coup comes along, but there really isnt any support for that except in the very small percentage of true anti-Thaksinistas and it would result in utter chaos.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
@D.N.
Traffic in Bangkok improved, huge infrastructure projects were approved and built including the BTS, The Ring Roads, a new Airport, a Metro.
Hate to quibble, but not entirely true. The BTS was already opened before Thaksin was elected. Many road improvements in the city were the initiatives of governors Bhichai and Samak. The Metro was also the initiative of an earlier government, and was already nearly complete when Thaksin was first elected.
The airport was also started before Thaksin, but he did play a role in speeding it up. For better or for worse.
And most importantly he was able to bring health care to the masses especially the rural inhabitants of farming communities.
I won’t quibble with this. Thaksin was more effective in efforts targeting the needs of the rural majority than he was in addressing urban issues. Had he tackled problems like urban crime and traffic, his once-broad support among urban voters might not have dissipated so quickly after the Shin sale. IIRC, TRT alienated many of their urban voters after they appeared to flip-flop on their 2005 campaign promise to extend mass transit to outlying areas of Bangkok just a few months after that election.
Malaysia – a simple institutional analysis
Dear neptunian,
Then please pray tell what is written in the requirements that you object to. Please enlighten all the readers here what you think is so wrong. Maybe we can discuss the facts first. Examine the evidence and then make a conclusion base on the facts presented.
Lets assume that we don’t know what you’re talking about because so far you have not presented any facts. You’re just making assumption base on what you perceive everyone knows. Please enlighten this subject matter further by presenting data, or any sort of link that all the readers may know what you are referring to.
Salam Hari Raya Aidilfitri.
US legal action on lese majeste
@planB
Another evidence of “The Ambulance Chasers Anonymous” of the western democracies trying hard to expand their turf aka profitability.
Snell & Wilmer is no plaintiffs firm, or bunch of ambulance chasers. They are a well-respected business law firm in the western US. Like other large corporate law firms, they do plaintiffs work on the side pro bono (that is, for free) for causes that the attorneys believe in. This is one of those instances. I happen to think that Snell has taken on a good cause. You may think that their misrepresentation is misguided, but I don’t think you have any grounds for questioning the sincerity of their motives. They’re certainly not doing this for the money.
US legal action on lese majeste
So what were the comments that attracted the attention of the Thai authorities?
Even in the complaint they never state what was said. I think that is an important part of the case, but as usual in these anti-LM articles, they never say what was actually written.
Just go to the link above, and indeed there are intelligent rational discussions of expressing concern about issues in Thailand. These are mixed in with childish, outrageously insulting comments and images. It is very likely that similar postings got Mr Chai into trouble, not the comments expressing “ concern with Thailand’s lese majesté laws”.
I do think the LM laws in Thailand need a serious review, but let’s be sure people understand what comments are being prosecuted and when a case is being made for freedom of expression of political views, people understand exactly what kind of comments they are defending.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
Leeyiankun #15
I believe I said “unbalanced check”, not “blank check”. According to my Macquarie dictionary, “unbalanced” means:
1. not balanced, or not properly balanced.
2. lacking steadiness or soundness of judgement.
3. mentally disordered or deranged.
Definitions 2 and 3 could perhaps apply to several participants on both sides.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Andrew Spooner #93; Ralph Kramden #79
When an Australian citizen is arrested in Thailand it is the responsibility of the embassy’s consular section to try to ensure that they are treated fairly according to Thai law.
In Harry’s case, the embassy lobbied successfully for a royal pardon. As I said before (#56), a pre-condition for the granting of a pardon is that the miscreant/victim (delete the description you disagree with) publicly expresses contrition, apologises, begs forgiveness, promises never to do it again, and expresses gratitude for the king’s benevolence. This was made perfectly clear to Harry by his Thai lawyer, who was retained with embassy assistance.
I was not a member of the consulate staff and so I was not directly involved, but I did discuss the case with those who were and I know the effort that went into getting Harry pardoned. To say that he was released for no other reason than “the simple fact he admitted his guilt and begged for forgiveness” and that “it wasn’t back room negotiations that freed him” is incorrect. Without embassy involvement, he would in all likelihood still be in gaol.
Joe, Somyot, Da Torpedo and others are Thai citizens and the Australian embassy’s consular staff cannot become involved. They were charged under a Thai law which neither the previous Democrat Government nor the current Phuea Thai Government have any intention of amending. I doubt very much that simply admitting their guilt and begging for forgiveness would free any of them.
Finally, please remember that I was talking about freeing one Australian citizen on lese majeste charges, not about trying to reform a draconian human rights abusing regime with polite requests.
If you would like to take the discussion a little further, please let me know of your next trip to Bangkok and we can do so over a beer at the FCCT.
Amsterdam on Thailand’s dual state
Aren’t all Amsterdams Thai articles ghost written by Gi Ungpakorn?
Siamese love, sex and war in Canberra
One is talking sense if he admires the beauty of the language of Khun Chaang Khun Phaen. Thai verse is among the world’s best, I am sure, but a lot of it must be lost in translation, no matter how ingenious a translator is.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah: Damn, I wish I hadn’t included that last sentence: Tell us more…? It distracted you from the questions. I thought you’d know, because you said: “I was employed at the embassy throughout the Nocolaides saga. I know from personal observation the effort that was put into securing Harry’s early (make that very early – a six-year sentence was reduced to six months) release…”. You see, I thought you were speaking from personal involvement. But now you say, “I understand the embassy concentrated on…”. So I was mistaken and you are not a first-hand participant. Sorry.
Mobile telephony in Burma
Thanks Moe Aung,
This is intriguing. If anyone has further details on these handsets then I’m sure the New Mandala readers following this issue will be excited to learn more. That somebody has decided to start seriously leap-frogging the available technology, by looking to mobile Internet telephony, is not so surprising. But that it is happening in 2011, when so much else is still up for grabs, is interesting indeed.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Mobile telephony in Burma
Now they have in Yangon Chinese handsets with Skype and web access but no camera, very good audio I gather. Can the authorities readily acquire the technology to monitor and police or disable Skype effectively ? They were trying to ban it in cyber cafes only recently as an unwelcome competition to their very expensive international calls. Interesting development.