CT #21. Of course Thaksin’s financial sponsorship of their education was pure rumour and speculation and, if true, he would have had to be very discrete to avoid annoying their father. Nevertheless they seem to have had some one with extremely deep pockets financing their educations. The motive is clear and he has the financial wherewithall, so he must remain on the list of possibles, unless other evidence surfaces.
BP, I think we will soon see how PPP projects are going to work in Thailand and whether foreigners can be attracted into them, as PPP is the only way that the Thai government will be able to get most of the promised projects done without coming up against Thailand’s govt debt ceiling or crowding out its own tiny debt market which would raise domestic interest rates. Without credible foreign investors I think it would be hard to make the concept work. The foreign involvement will bring in foreign equity and debt capital and credible foreign anchor investors will reduce the funding cost to Thai private investors and government. Major Thai infrastructure players tend to have a lot on their plate already, e.g. Ital Thai that has to come up with massive funding for Burma port project. Personally I wouldn’t touch a foreign company involved in Thai infrastructure with a barge pole.
You said “Remember the place of rumor and suspicion in Thai politics – rumor and hearsay played a very key part back in 1976 and is still one of the largest mobilizing forces in the country (see also, “black shirts,” “third hand,” “dark influence,” ad nauseum). ”
That’s precisely why I am contending that the attempt to attach some significance to an anonymous, emailed letter, without confirming it’s authenticity is remarkable for a website linked to an academic institution.
If this letter was placed by New Mandala in the context of a wider discussion about gossip and its role within Thai politics/culture, then that would be of interest.
But it hasn’t been.
To be honest (and I know I am going firmly against the grain by stating this), I also found the entire debate and furore about the 737 in Germany completely tiresome. We learnt nothing new from this. Anyone who is attempting a more thorough analysis of the shape of Thai politics discovered little new about either the CP, the Thai royals or the Thai state from the entire debacle.
Yes, it was of passing interest and newsworthy but why wasn’t the fact that US Marines were training Thai military snipers only one year after the deaths of dozens of Thai civilians at the hands of the same Thai Army snipers poured over in the same way?
In comparison the CP’s plane is a sideshow.
The Thai Army haven’t been able to conduct their coups, massacres and corruption in a bubble devoid of context. They’ve been continually supported by the most powerful military force in history – the USA.
JohnW #4. If you are referring to the Civil & Commercial Code I think it is indeed impossible under Thai law to cut one’s children out of a will. The CCC is borrowed from French law which mandates minimum shares that have to go children and surviving spouse. I can’t say if there is anything in the Palace Succession Law on inheritance of assets, as I have never seen it.
Nganadeeleg #22 In a proper constitutional monarchy one or both parties involved would stand up and deny or confirm it’s authenticity. It’s not only culturally and historically important, this Thai “system” now makes it politically pertinent also and should therefore be discussed. In the Thai “system” this kind of communication is a primary method of discourse. So Andrew Johnson’s comment, #17 is valid except that the examples he offers were all innuendo pushed by the status quo who controlled the media. How does one get a topic on the agenda if all open discussion is banned in the conventional media? Openly calling the king a derelict grandfather on twitter or facebook just leads to a flood of threats and abuse. Humor and rumor are subversive. However, unlike Andrew Johnson, I am a big believer in conspiracy, The Thailand I know couldn’t exist without it.
Instead of being ‘culturally significant’ (as it obviously is in the context of the Thai ‘system’), in a proper constitutional monarchy system this stuff would be merely consigned to the tabloid press & gossip mags.
And … similarly, guess who’s the new finance minister. Its Thirachai Puvanart-naranuban.
Well, it seems more rewards for loyalty.
Aug 2011: Thirachai Puvanart-naranuban, outgoing secretary-general of the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), is likely the new finance minister (BP).
June 2011: The SEC said Yingluck had not breached the financial market laws with her involvement in a legal case against her brother (AFP).
Feb 23, 2006: Thailand’s SEC investigated the Shin_Temasek transaction. “The investigation concluded that Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his daughter Pinthongta are clear from all wrongdoing,” said SEC secretary-general Thirachai Phuvanatnaranubala (Wiki).
It looks more likely Kittirat will take the Commerce portfolio (Nation, Aug 6/11). Thus …. is loyalty rewarded? Check out what in 2006, Kittirat said of the Shin Corp-Temasek sale:
(http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=254902020031)
SET finds nothing wrong in the sale of Shin Corp’s shares
The Stock Exchange of Thailand (SET)’s President Kittirat Na Ranong (р╕Бр╕┤р╕Хр╕Хр╕┤р╕гр╕▒р╕Хр╕Щр╣М р╕У р╕гр╕░р╕Щр╕нр╕З) has revealed the result of the recent probe that SET had found no guilt in the trading of Shin Corporation Public Company Limited’s shares to Temasek Holdings Co of Singapore as a big lot with the amount of 73 billion baht.
Mr. Kittirat said that the Stock Exchange of Thailand did not receive any information on such deals from the company since there is no need for the company to inform the detail to the Stock Exchange as the trading was done on a big-lot system.
As for the news which spreaded before the trading took place, Mr. Kittirat commented that the SET had previously contacted the company 5 times but the company did not respond, however he said that the SET does not have the responsibility to make direct contact with the share holders.
Mr. Kittirat said that SET will work with Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to do further investigation on the matter.
Personally I had never even heard about this family or circumstances surrounding it, so whether the letter true or not, I am at least a little the wiser. In fact both “combatants” have widened my awareness for which I am grateful, I have never managed to attain a state of bliss through by ignorance, though I daresay some do indeed reach that nirvana.
No, not exactly. You have been altering words and meanings of my posts. You even disregard the question mark of my post 38 and assume the meaning of your own !
“Imagine if your ex-husband (who has not yet publicly divorced you, but has begun living with another woman) showed up once in 10 years, accompanied by the woman who replaced you (also bear in mind the class differences between the two women)!”
Exactly what happened in late 70’s. To Thais, it is called bad karma ! The former was even more hurtful due to the fact that she was of royal blood and still is. Ms. Benz is very smart and as a mother, she would want the best for her children.
“Now imagine that he left, and 8 years have gone by without a word”
Did you news of the world them and hack their phones ?
I read the letter and until it is verified will simply file it under “other unverified gossip about Thai royalty”.
My own view is that this kind of unsubstantiated material actually detracts from a more concrete analysis and reduces the debate back to one about arbitary cultural significance rather than unpacking the power relations that create the hegemonic conditions necessary for the Thai “elite” to maintain its power.
What I’ve actually been far more interested in recently, and Political Prisoners Thailand posted an excellent article looking at a wikileaks cable pertaining to this, is the USA’s enduring support for the Thai military.
And while I am fully aware of the cultural parameters of power and their need to be investigated, the concrete lived reality of how this power is manifested empirically via a series of actions eg coups and massacres, is of primacy.
I say this respectfully but crowd-sourcing the “authenticity” of a letter of dubious origin – even if the esteemed likes of yourself and Andrew Walker overlay this letter with the signifier of credibility – doesn’t mean those who consider it “insignificant” should be shut out of the discussion.
Wasn’t the intention of Andrew Walker when he posted this to debate the letter?
Surely he can’t complain too much when that actually takes place?
It was enlightening to read the article you have written. This topic certainly does interests me and I have been reading alot on this through the books on the Fajar Generation and also literature on Chin Peng. I have been looking at material on this era in Singapore. I would like to get in touch with you. Kindly do drop me an email and I will be looking forward to hearing from you
Yep comments are closed on my blog as they are for Bangkok Pundit. Given what happened to Jiew I am sure you’d understand why. I also now have a FB page where people are free to leave any comment under my moderation. I have invited people to email comments and even went so far to ask those with opposing voices to mine to contribute a blog posting. All I usually receive are an unending stream of threatening, abusive hate speech directed at both me and my family.
New Mandala also moderates its comments so the idea you are completely open is spurious.
However I support your right to moderate but suggest you might stick to the “empirical veracity” of both my personal comments policy and your “moderation” in this instance.
I am also very aware of your campaigning on LM and am supportive of that. Your retort on this shows that you might be a bit thin-skinned if somebody criticises you.
And nope, have never suggested that “social, political and cultural processes are driven only by facts or on claims/perceptions that are factual.”
You put that suggestion into my mouth by asking that question.
I just spat it back out. Nothing to do with me.
But documents with a claim of “very significant”, and the resulting attachment of “authenticity” that comes from a noted, credible academic making such a claim (even as you, in the same breath, attempt sophistry by then denying the validity of “empiricism”), has to be flagged up. You can’t have it both ways.
And, let’s be clear.
I’ve not once suggested that this letter is inauthentic. Just that proper research needs to be done first before such documents are published in this manner. I for one am completely bored of the gossip-based conspiracy theory type nonsense that surrounds discussion about the Thai royal family.
One final point – have you never heard the story of the Hitler Diaries?
I think the fact that the CP was in Florida in 2003 doesn’t challenge the argument that the letter is valid.
While the letter-writer doesn’t mention the CP’s visit, remember that the visit would have been (according to the CP’s website) in 2003, and the CP would have been accompanied by his new wife. This is probably hardly a comfortable visit, and even if they were to meet as a family, it’s rather likely that there were bad feelings between everyone present. Imagine if your ex-husband (who has not yet publicly divorced you, but has begun living with another woman) showed up once in 10 years, accompanied by the woman who replaced you (also bear in mind the class differences between the two women)! Now imagine that he left, and 8 years have gone by without a word – only a notification that you are no longer allowed to use your last name!
I think that, even with a visit in 2003, the feelings of abandonment expressed in the letter make perfect sense.
@Andrew Spooner
Too many Andrews on this thread! Walker, Spooner, me… Remember the place of rumor and suspicion in Thai politics – rumor and hearsay played a very key part back in 1976 and is still one of the largest mobilizing forces in the country (see also, “black shirts,” “third hand,” “dark influence,” ad nauseum). Thais living in Thailand (at least those who I daily talk with) are aware that they don’t hear the complete truth, and have to rely upon rumor to get information – especially concerning the CP. We’ve had a host of rumors about him in recent years, if this letter is not real, it adds to the chipping away at his “baaramii.”
I’m not a big believer in conspiracies, even in Thai politics, so I don’t particularly think that this is an example of forces “from abroad” or a “division within the family” trying to discredit the CP. Why wouldn’t it be legit?
@Andrew Walker –
How is this thing being distributed? Email forward? How far back can we trace it?
It is interesting if this letter is authentic and it is appeared in the public in the right time.
I wonder what if these four boys want to share their part and become an opponent………wait and see what Thai citizens will want and think after this current group.
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Crown Prince’s family update?
CT #21. Of course Thaksin’s financial sponsorship of their education was pure rumour and speculation and, if true, he would have had to be very discrete to avoid annoying their father. Nevertheless they seem to have had some one with extremely deep pockets financing their educations. The motive is clear and he has the financial wherewithall, so he must remain on the list of possibles, unless other evidence surfaces.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
BP, I think we will soon see how PPP projects are going to work in Thailand and whether foreigners can be attracted into them, as PPP is the only way that the Thai government will be able to get most of the promised projects done without coming up against Thailand’s govt debt ceiling or crowding out its own tiny debt market which would raise domestic interest rates. Without credible foreign investors I think it would be hard to make the concept work. The foreign involvement will bring in foreign equity and debt capital and credible foreign anchor investors will reduce the funding cost to Thai private investors and government. Major Thai infrastructure players tend to have a lot on their plate already, e.g. Ital Thai that has to come up with massive funding for Burma port project. Personally I wouldn’t touch a foreign company involved in Thai infrastructure with a barge pole.
Letter to Thailand
Andrew Johnson
You said “Remember the place of rumor and suspicion in Thai politics – rumor and hearsay played a very key part back in 1976 and is still one of the largest mobilizing forces in the country (see also, “black shirts,” “third hand,” “dark influence,” ad nauseum). ”
That’s precisely why I am contending that the attempt to attach some significance to an anonymous, emailed letter, without confirming it’s authenticity is remarkable for a website linked to an academic institution.
If this letter was placed by New Mandala in the context of a wider discussion about gossip and its role within Thai politics/culture, then that would be of interest.
But it hasn’t been.
To be honest (and I know I am going firmly against the grain by stating this), I also found the entire debate and furore about the 737 in Germany completely tiresome. We learnt nothing new from this. Anyone who is attempting a more thorough analysis of the shape of Thai politics discovered little new about either the CP, the Thai royals or the Thai state from the entire debacle.
Yes, it was of passing interest and newsworthy but why wasn’t the fact that US Marines were training Thai military snipers only one year after the deaths of dozens of Thai civilians at the hands of the same Thai Army snipers poured over in the same way?
In comparison the CP’s plane is a sideshow.
The Thai Army haven’t been able to conduct their coups, massacres and corruption in a bubble devoid of context. They’ve been continually supported by the most powerful military force in history – the USA.
Letter to Thailand
JohnW #4. If you are referring to the Civil & Commercial Code I think it is indeed impossible under Thai law to cut one’s children out of a will. The CCC is borrowed from French law which mandates minimum shares that have to go children and surviving spouse. I can’t say if there is anything in the Palace Succession Law on inheritance of assets, as I have never seen it.
Crown Prince’s family update?
Jesse (46)
I didn’t just disregard your question mark, but the whole of your unconvincing argument.
Letter to Thailand
Nganadeeleg #22 In a proper constitutional monarchy one or both parties involved would stand up and deny or confirm it’s authenticity. It’s not only culturally and historically important, this Thai “system” now makes it politically pertinent also and should therefore be discussed. In the Thai “system” this kind of communication is a primary method of discourse. So Andrew Johnson’s comment, #17 is valid except that the examples he offers were all innuendo pushed by the status quo who controlled the media. How does one get a topic on the agenda if all open discussion is banned in the conventional media? Openly calling the king a derelict grandfather on twitter or facebook just leads to a flood of threats and abuse. Humor and rumor are subversive. However, unlike Andrew Johnson, I am a big believer in conspiracy, The Thailand I know couldn’t exist without it.
Yingluck’s Foreign Minister
N Amraapali: You might be making a little too much of the SEC clearance of the Temasek-Shin Corp deal – remember how the deal was put together and the various other players involved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_Shin_Corporation_to_Temasek_Holdings#Use_of_nominees
Letter to Thailand
Instead of being ‘culturally significant’ (as it obviously is in the context of the Thai ‘system’), in a proper constitutional monarchy system this stuff would be merely consigned to the tabloid press & gossip mags.
Yingluck’s Foreign Minister
And … similarly, guess who’s the new finance minister. Its Thirachai Puvanart-naranuban.
Well, it seems more rewards for loyalty.
Aug 2011: Thirachai Puvanart-naranuban, outgoing secretary-general of the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), is likely the new finance minister (BP).
June 2011: The SEC said Yingluck had not breached the financial market laws with her involvement in a legal case against her brother (AFP).
Feb 23, 2006: Thailand’s SEC investigated the Shin_Temasek transaction. “The investigation concluded that Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his daughter Pinthongta are clear from all wrongdoing,” said SEC secretary-general Thirachai Phuvanatnaranubala (Wiki).
Yingluck’s Foreign Minister
It looks more likely Kittirat will take the Commerce portfolio (Nation, Aug 6/11). Thus …. is loyalty rewarded? Check out what in 2006, Kittirat said of the Shin Corp-Temasek sale:
(http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=254902020031)
SET finds nothing wrong in the sale of Shin Corp’s shares
The Stock Exchange of Thailand (SET)’s President Kittirat Na Ranong (р╕Бр╕┤р╕Хр╕Хр╕┤р╕гр╕▒р╕Хр╕Щр╣М р╕У р╕гр╕░р╕Щр╕нр╕З) has revealed the result of the recent probe that SET had found no guilt in the trading of Shin Corporation Public Company Limited’s shares to Temasek Holdings Co of Singapore as a big lot with the amount of 73 billion baht.
Mr. Kittirat said that the Stock Exchange of Thailand did not receive any information on such deals from the company since there is no need for the company to inform the detail to the Stock Exchange as the trading was done on a big-lot system.
As for the news which spreaded before the trading took place, Mr. Kittirat commented that the SET had previously contacted the company 5 times but the company did not respond, however he said that the SET does not have the responsibility to make direct contact with the share holders.
Mr. Kittirat said that SET will work with Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to do further investigation on the matter.
Letter to Thailand
Personally I had never even heard about this family or circumstances surrounding it, so whether the letter true or not, I am at least a little the wiser. In fact both “combatants” have widened my awareness for which I am grateful, I have never managed to attain a state of bliss through by ignorance, though I daresay some do indeed reach that nirvana.
Crown Prince’s family update?
Mooyong (44)
No, not exactly. You have been altering words and meanings of my posts. You even disregard the question mark of my post 38 and assume the meaning of your own !
Letter to Thailand
Andrew Johnson
“Imagine if your ex-husband (who has not yet publicly divorced you, but has begun living with another woman) showed up once in 10 years, accompanied by the woman who replaced you (also bear in mind the class differences between the two women)!”
Exactly what happened in late 70’s. To Thais, it is called bad karma ! The former was even more hurtful due to the fact that she was of royal blood and still is. Ms. Benz is very smart and as a mother, she would want the best for her children.
“Now imagine that he left, and 8 years have gone by without a word”
Did you news of the world them and hack their phones ?
Letter to Thailand
Somsak
I read the letter and until it is verified will simply file it under “other unverified gossip about Thai royalty”.
My own view is that this kind of unsubstantiated material actually detracts from a more concrete analysis and reduces the debate back to one about arbitary cultural significance rather than unpacking the power relations that create the hegemonic conditions necessary for the Thai “elite” to maintain its power.
What I’ve actually been far more interested in recently, and Political Prisoners Thailand posted an excellent article looking at a wikileaks cable pertaining to this, is the USA’s enduring support for the Thai military.
And while I am fully aware of the cultural parameters of power and their need to be investigated, the concrete lived reality of how this power is manifested empirically via a series of actions eg coups and massacres, is of primacy.
I say this respectfully but crowd-sourcing the “authenticity” of a letter of dubious origin – even if the esteemed likes of yourself and Andrew Walker overlay this letter with the signifier of credibility – doesn’t mean those who consider it “insignificant” should be shut out of the discussion.
Wasn’t the intention of Andrew Walker when he posted this to debate the letter?
Surely he can’t complain too much when that actually takes place?
Eu Chooi Yip: Singapore’s unknown communist leader
Hi Christine
It was enlightening to read the article you have written. This topic certainly does interests me and I have been reading alot on this through the books on the Fajar Generation and also literature on Chin Peng. I have been looking at material on this era in Singapore. I would like to get in touch with you. Kindly do drop me an email and I will be looking forward to hearing from you
Jaz Singh
Letter to Thailand
Andrew Walker
Yep comments are closed on my blog as they are for Bangkok Pundit. Given what happened to Jiew I am sure you’d understand why. I also now have a FB page where people are free to leave any comment under my moderation. I have invited people to email comments and even went so far to ask those with opposing voices to mine to contribute a blog posting. All I usually receive are an unending stream of threatening, abusive hate speech directed at both me and my family.
New Mandala also moderates its comments so the idea you are completely open is spurious.
However I support your right to moderate but suggest you might stick to the “empirical veracity” of both my personal comments policy and your “moderation” in this instance.
I am also very aware of your campaigning on LM and am supportive of that. Your retort on this shows that you might be a bit thin-skinned if somebody criticises you.
And nope, have never suggested that “social, political and cultural processes are driven only by facts or on claims/perceptions that are factual.”
You put that suggestion into my mouth by asking that question.
I just spat it back out. Nothing to do with me.
But documents with a claim of “very significant”, and the resulting attachment of “authenticity” that comes from a noted, credible academic making such a claim (even as you, in the same breath, attempt sophistry by then denying the validity of “empiricism”), has to be flagged up. You can’t have it both ways.
And, let’s be clear.
I’ve not once suggested that this letter is inauthentic. Just that proper research needs to be done first before such documents are published in this manner. I for one am completely bored of the gossip-based conspiracy theory type nonsense that surrounds discussion about the Thai royal family.
One final point – have you never heard the story of the Hitler Diaries?
Letter to Thailand
@Jesse #11
I think the fact that the CP was in Florida in 2003 doesn’t challenge the argument that the letter is valid.
While the letter-writer doesn’t mention the CP’s visit, remember that the visit would have been (according to the CP’s website) in 2003, and the CP would have been accompanied by his new wife. This is probably hardly a comfortable visit, and even if they were to meet as a family, it’s rather likely that there were bad feelings between everyone present. Imagine if your ex-husband (who has not yet publicly divorced you, but has begun living with another woman) showed up once in 10 years, accompanied by the woman who replaced you (also bear in mind the class differences between the two women)! Now imagine that he left, and 8 years have gone by without a word – only a notification that you are no longer allowed to use your last name!
I think that, even with a visit in 2003, the feelings of abandonment expressed in the letter make perfect sense.
@Andrew Spooner
Too many Andrews on this thread! Walker, Spooner, me… Remember the place of rumor and suspicion in Thai politics – rumor and hearsay played a very key part back in 1976 and is still one of the largest mobilizing forces in the country (see also, “black shirts,” “third hand,” “dark influence,” ad nauseum). Thais living in Thailand (at least those who I daily talk with) are aware that they don’t hear the complete truth, and have to rely upon rumor to get information – especially concerning the CP. We’ve had a host of rumors about him in recent years, if this letter is not real, it adds to the chipping away at his “baaramii.”
I’m not a big believer in conspiracies, even in Thai politics, so I don’t particularly think that this is an example of forces “from abroad” or a “division within the family” trying to discredit the CP. Why wouldn’t it be legit?
@Andrew Walker –
How is this thing being distributed? Email forward? How far back can we trace it?
Crown Prince’s family update?
Just to clarify on the question about neurofibromatosis.
It is not uncommon for neurofibromatosis to result from spontaneus genetic mutation. It is not unexpected.
Radiation is a treatment modality along with surgery for symptomatic neurofibroma esp acoustic neuroma as mentioned in the letter.
Crown Prince’s family update?
Jesse (38)
Yes exactly, excuse me!
Letter to Thailand
It is interesting if this letter is authentic and it is appeared in the public in the right time.
I wonder what if these four boys want to share their part and become an opponent………wait and see what Thai citizens will want and think after this current group.