The Chinese Thai have for the most part done very well in Thailand. They now run many of the large businesses, occupy government, bureaucracy, police, army etc. Many still speak Chinese, go to Chinese temples, follow Chinese rituals and feel superior to “lazy” dark skinned Thais. They prefer to do business with other Chinese and seem to have avoided problems as with other ASEAN countries. Having had a Thai Chinese wife for 10 years these were my observations. Not to confuse that I ever had issues with them as I don’t, they always treated me well.
Businesses aside how many half western Thais has anyone seen in similar positions?
“What I actually wrote down was that members of the royal family can not sue anyone for saying bad things or spreading malicious rumors about them, that’s why there is Lese Majeste law in the first place.”
-Saying bad things which is not true? That was what you were saying? Well, we have the English word for that. It is ‘defamation’. So yes, you did mean to say defamation even though you did not know the right term to use. Hence there is no reason why the Royals cannot sue anyone who says untrue things about them. Or if you insist that they cannot, please cite a provision in Thai law which forbids the Royals to sue others for defamation to support your assertion, although I am sure there isn’t any.
As a result, lese majeste is not necessary. Moreover, lese majeste also covers situations where people speak things which are true, but not positive about the Monarchy. I have asked you in my previous post how can jailing people for fifteen years when they said the truth can be justified, and you have not yet done it.
You said:
“And please don’t accuse me of ranting. I’m entitled to my own opinions too, academically style or not.”
-Yes you are entitled to your own opinion, as long as you got your facts right. Your previous post clearly shows you got the facts clearly wrong that defamation does not exist in Thailand. This is what I don’t want to see.
You said:
“I have to ask you back whether you actually know what this “student” , as you put it did ? First of all, he is not a student. He was a student ! An accounting major who, for years, had been spending time on different anti royal family web boards as “Royal Chair”. He copied insulting articles and pasted them onto FB and other websites, saved it to his hard drive etc. He was warned by university principles, as well as his university mates but that didn’t help. The authority was kind and ignore him a few times, until they took action this past weekend !”
-And does that justify lengthy jail terms? Answer me on this. Do you think what he did is deserving of lengthy time in jail? If yes, please give your reasons. I ask you for the second time already.
What right does his peers or his teacher have to force him to change his political opinion? Political opinion is something which is ought to be respected. You cannot force others to change their political opinion. Nor can you jail people because of it.
Finally, I must make comment about your remarks that those articles are ‘insulting’ to the Monarchy. When you use this kind of word, at least tell us what those articles are about and explain (ie give reasons) why you think they are insulting. I have read a lot of negative articles about the Thai Monarchy myself, and most of the foreign publications (Sydney Morning Herald, ABC TV, Forbes, Toronto Star, Yale University Press, and lately Wikileaks) did not report something which is not true. As negative as they are, they are the truth. If you think that it’s insulting for one to report the truth, then it is too bad for you. But in the western world, the truth will be the complete defence to any defamation cases, and every citizen has a right to political preference.
Therefore, this boy will never be deemed criminally guilty in any western courts for expressing his political opinion, and saying the negative truths about the Monarchy. So why Thailand jailed him? Give me some good reasons, would you?
You said:
“Don’t skim read the news and put down other’s opinions !”
The article says that “Chiang” helped pioneer the silk industry, which is where the original Shinawatra $$$ came from. I note that in Sarassawadee Ongsakul’s “History of Lanna”, “Chiang” acquired his wealth in a short time as a tax collector and then moved into moneylending. Sarassawadee notes that the role of tax collector at this time was a bought position (ie. you bribed to get it) with the expectation of a large return.
At what point did “Chiang” move from tax collecting and moneylending into the silk trade and did he ever completely give up the former?
Not to be overly pessimistic, but if Ajaan Andrew or Ajaan Nich can vouch for authenticity of Khun Richar Lloyd Perry, this would put this issue to rest, completely…
That’s my main point, i doubt she has been the sole person responsible for all expenses of herself and her sons. I doubt it is Taksin. He was a nobody when they left to USA.
Stephen,
Sorry for the late reply. The Sakyadhita conference was active in discussing and promoting the topic of ordination of women within Buddhism. This is a pan-Buddhist organization, not only Theravada, so the Thai forest sangha controversy was not discussed in detail here. As far as I know there still exists a separate vision of the future of female ordination for the forest sangha in Thailand.
May be what I wrote this morning wasn’t clear but I doubt I wrote Law of defamation does not exist in Thailand. What I actually wrote down was that members of the royal family can not sue anyone for saying bad things or spreading malicious rumors about them, that’s why there is Lese Majeste law in the first place. And please don’t accuse me of ranting. I’m entitled to my own opinions too, academically style or not.
I have to ask you back whether you actually know what this “student” , as you put it did ? First of all, he is not a student. He was a student ! An accounting major who, for years, had been spending time on different anti royal family web boards as “Royal Chair”. He copied insulting articles and pasted them onto FB and other websites, saved it to his hard drive etc. He was warned by university principles, as well as his university mates but that didn’t help. The authority was kind and ignore him a few times, until they took action this past weekend !
Don’t skim read the news and put down other’s opinions !
CT, do we know for sure that the student merely said he disliked the K? Have any more details emerged of the exact nature of his “crime”?
Re defamation. Of course any one in Thailand can either sue in the civil court for defamation or file a charge with the police for criminal defamation, if they will accept it. Thailand is already backward in retaining and continuing to use criminal defamation laws actively and with enthusiasm. Virtually all developed nations have either repealed criminal defamation laws on or it has become known that courts will throw out cases, so prosecutors don’t bother any more. That is as it should be globally, i.e. defamation being a civil matter that is punishable by an award for damages and not an imprisonable offence. Thailand’s criminal defamation laws effectively constitute a gag on the media on virtually all matters involving influential people of noble birth or otherwise and they need to be thrown out for the country to reduce corrupt and develop in a way that benefits the majority.
Britain’s royal family may not be a paragon of virtue in all respects but their current attitude to defamation evolved nearly a century ago and is still appropriate for the modern constitutional monarchy. Lese majeste laws have not been used for over a century and Edward VII, who as crown prince was hounded by the press over his various mistresses, famously said, “Publish and be damned”. Ever since then the British royal family has never attempted to take legal action against the media. Today the monarchy is no doubt much stronger as a result. Every foible of theirs is reported in the media which gives them a good chance to guage the public’s feelings about them and correct any excesses before they lead to a potentially terminal loss of popularity, as in the fuss over Princess Di’s death. As HMK, himself, said, it is important for royals to be criticised, since otherwise how will they know, if they have made mistakes.
I was living in Bangkok in 1993 and I distinctly remember Yuwathida/Sujarini/Mrs. CP receiving a PhD in Education from Prasan Mit Teachers’ College, at about the same time she was commissioned major in the Royal Thai Army Intelligence Corps. With two rows of ribbons on her white uniform, and all. I have no doubt that a lady of her education, intelligence, skills and experience would have had little difficulty making a comfortable living in the USA.
1) My point is that she does not have education that would qualify her to apply for a job in US.
2) As we know, Thaksin is supporting the CP. He would not do anything to annoy the CP.
3) Based on her background, the only way she may make a living in US is probably running a Thai restaurant. I never heard anyone make a claim.
4) These lead me to believe that the boys get support from their father. I can’t imagine Yuwasthida somehow could makr a living in US, own a decent house, get her kids to private school and colleges.
No way she could do this all by herself. I think most likely her ex has to pay for her and their children living in US.
The Shinawatra clan has a distant connection with Australia. In 1961 Thaksin’s cousin Surajit graduated from the Australian Army Officer Cadet School (OCS) Portsea. In due course he became a helicopter pilot, and was shot down and killed in operations against c0mmunist insurgents in Phrae Province in 1973.
When OCS closed down, its roll of honour was relocated to the Royal Military College (RMC) Duntroon in Canberra. Surajit is listed as Captain S. Chinvat. This is not the correct transliteration of р╕Кр╕┤р╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕г, but then neither is Shinawatra. According to the official Thai government system, it should be Chinawat.
It shows what he posted on his facebook account (he used a different name on his FB account). Admittedly, something he posted was quite offensive. But that does not justify jailing him for lengthy terms.
People being ignorant and malicious is bad enough: when they choose to be so intentionally and write it off as Thainess, they need not wonder why people feel they are insulting the country’s image and reputation. Common sense has not had a welcome mat in Thailand for generations. The country calls itself Buddhist, but does not practice Buddhism. Its people claim the right of suing others for criminal defamation but don’t mind insulting others in the name of the monarchy. It reminds me of those old Robin Hood movies where the real robbers stopped people beside the road and said, “In the name of the king…”
Royalist gatekeepers are perpetuating inhumane practices and calling it Thainess.
Way to go!
I am not saying that being on the top 20 list of the world’s best universities give you a monopoly on being ‘right’ but just want you to give some due credit to ANU.
By the way, do you by any chance the same Tony as Tony Cartalucci @landdestroyer?
The letter is authentic. A ‘Times’ reporter confirmed this in an email exchange with the second son, Vacharaesorn, who works for a big law firm in New York State. An article on the subject can be read here:
In correspondence, I understand, the authors of the letter were unwilling to add anything substantive to the content of their publically circulated letter.
(In anticipation of complaint, yes, ‘The Times’ website is behind a paywall. But it costs one pound for which you get the whole site for a whole month. If anyone thinks this is too much, I’ll pay them back myself next time they are in Tokyo…)
In most countries with laws against defamation, it is only the people who are defamed who can bring charges. Further, the accuser has to prove that damage was done. This is true in academic circles as much as in the society at large.
The Deputy Rector brought charges. He was not insulted or even mentioned. Why is it his right to throw a student in prison when he has no legal standing regarding defamation?
If the comments are true, why is that illegal? If someone accurately reports the news about the (mis)behavior of a member of the Royal Family, the accuracy and truthfulness does not protect the reporter in Thailand, and may in fact make that person even more vulnerable. Can you defend this?
Jesse #7 Why not? they have their own representative, no? They can sue anyone to their heart’s content. How can you fit 15yrs for criticizing into a democratic system? Can I land you in jail for that long if you verbally trashed my life & my life’s work? Can I send a lynch mob to your home, if you look at me wrong?
Surely, you must agree that all of the above is seriously wrong. And those who cater to it is WRONG in the HEAD. Just because it’s a law, doesn’t make it any less stupid. People thought that it was ok to have slaves years ago(sadly, we still do), did it make it right?
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The Shinawatra family tree
The Chinese Thai have for the most part done very well in Thailand. They now run many of the large businesses, occupy government, bureaucracy, police, army etc. Many still speak Chinese, go to Chinese temples, follow Chinese rituals and feel superior to “lazy” dark skinned Thais. They prefer to do business with other Chinese and seem to have avoided problems as with other ASEAN countries. Having had a Thai Chinese wife for 10 years these were my observations. Not to confuse that I ever had issues with them as I don’t, they always treated me well.
Businesses aside how many half western Thais has anyone seen in similar positions?
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
@Jesse, I will just quote your post and respond:
“What I actually wrote down was that members of the royal family can not sue anyone for saying bad things or spreading malicious rumors about them, that’s why there is Lese Majeste law in the first place.”
-Saying bad things which is not true? That was what you were saying? Well, we have the English word for that. It is ‘defamation’. So yes, you did mean to say defamation even though you did not know the right term to use. Hence there is no reason why the Royals cannot sue anyone who says untrue things about them. Or if you insist that they cannot, please cite a provision in Thai law which forbids the Royals to sue others for defamation to support your assertion, although I am sure there isn’t any.
As a result, lese majeste is not necessary. Moreover, lese majeste also covers situations where people speak things which are true, but not positive about the Monarchy. I have asked you in my previous post how can jailing people for fifteen years when they said the truth can be justified, and you have not yet done it.
You said:
“And please don’t accuse me of ranting. I’m entitled to my own opinions too, academically style or not.”
-Yes you are entitled to your own opinion, as long as you got your facts right. Your previous post clearly shows you got the facts clearly wrong that defamation does not exist in Thailand. This is what I don’t want to see.
You said:
“I have to ask you back whether you actually know what this “student” , as you put it did ? First of all, he is not a student. He was a student ! An accounting major who, for years, had been spending time on different anti royal family web boards as “Royal Chair”. He copied insulting articles and pasted them onto FB and other websites, saved it to his hard drive etc. He was warned by university principles, as well as his university mates but that didn’t help. The authority was kind and ignore him a few times, until they took action this past weekend !”
-And does that justify lengthy jail terms? Answer me on this. Do you think what he did is deserving of lengthy time in jail? If yes, please give your reasons. I ask you for the second time already.
What right does his peers or his teacher have to force him to change his political opinion? Political opinion is something which is ought to be respected. You cannot force others to change their political opinion. Nor can you jail people because of it.
Finally, I must make comment about your remarks that those articles are ‘insulting’ to the Monarchy. When you use this kind of word, at least tell us what those articles are about and explain (ie give reasons) why you think they are insulting. I have read a lot of negative articles about the Thai Monarchy myself, and most of the foreign publications (Sydney Morning Herald, ABC TV, Forbes, Toronto Star, Yale University Press, and lately Wikileaks) did not report something which is not true. As negative as they are, they are the truth. If you think that it’s insulting for one to report the truth, then it is too bad for you. But in the western world, the truth will be the complete defence to any defamation cases, and every citizen has a right to political preference.
Therefore, this boy will never be deemed criminally guilty in any western courts for expressing his political opinion, and saying the negative truths about the Monarchy. So why Thailand jailed him? Give me some good reasons, would you?
You said:
“Don’t skim read the news and put down other’s opinions !”
I didn’t, and I hope you won’t too.
The Shinawatra family tree
The article says that “Chiang” helped pioneer the silk industry, which is where the original Shinawatra $$$ came from. I note that in Sarassawadee Ongsakul’s “History of Lanna”, “Chiang” acquired his wealth in a short time as a tax collector and then moved into moneylending. Sarassawadee notes that the role of tax collector at this time was a bought position (ie. you bribed to get it) with the expectation of a large return.
At what point did “Chiang” move from tax collecting and moneylending into the silk trade and did he ever completely give up the former?
Crown Prince’s family update?
Not to be overly pessimistic, but if Ajaan Andrew or Ajaan Nich can vouch for authenticity of Khun Richar Lloyd Perry, this would put this issue to rest, completely…
Letter to Thailand
And like I mentioned even with no help from CP’s side (which I doubt), Ms. Benz has her own family as well.
Letter to Thailand
toni (33)
That’s my main point, i doubt she has been the sole person responsible for all expenses of herself and her sons. I doubt it is Taksin. He was a nobody when they left to USA.
12th Sakyadhita International Conference in Bangkok
Stephen,
Sorry for the late reply. The Sakyadhita conference was active in discussing and promoting the topic of ordination of women within Buddhism. This is a pan-Buddhist organization, not only Theravada, so the Thai forest sangha controversy was not discussed in detail here. As far as I know there still exists a separate vision of the future of female ordination for the forest sangha in Thailand.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
CT (8)
May be what I wrote this morning wasn’t clear but I doubt I wrote Law of defamation does not exist in Thailand. What I actually wrote down was that members of the royal family can not sue anyone for saying bad things or spreading malicious rumors about them, that’s why there is Lese Majeste law in the first place. And please don’t accuse me of ranting. I’m entitled to my own opinions too, academically style or not.
I have to ask you back whether you actually know what this “student” , as you put it did ? First of all, he is not a student. He was a student ! An accounting major who, for years, had been spending time on different anti royal family web boards as “Royal Chair”. He copied insulting articles and pasted them onto FB and other websites, saved it to his hard drive etc. He was warned by university principles, as well as his university mates but that didn’t help. The authority was kind and ignore him a few times, until they took action this past weekend !
Don’t skim read the news and put down other’s opinions !
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
CT, do we know for sure that the student merely said he disliked the K? Have any more details emerged of the exact nature of his “crime”?
Re defamation. Of course any one in Thailand can either sue in the civil court for defamation or file a charge with the police for criminal defamation, if they will accept it. Thailand is already backward in retaining and continuing to use criminal defamation laws actively and with enthusiasm. Virtually all developed nations have either repealed criminal defamation laws on or it has become known that courts will throw out cases, so prosecutors don’t bother any more. That is as it should be globally, i.e. defamation being a civil matter that is punishable by an award for damages and not an imprisonable offence. Thailand’s criminal defamation laws effectively constitute a gag on the media on virtually all matters involving influential people of noble birth or otherwise and they need to be thrown out for the country to reduce corrupt and develop in a way that benefits the majority.
Britain’s royal family may not be a paragon of virtue in all respects but their current attitude to defamation evolved nearly a century ago and is still appropriate for the modern constitutional monarchy. Lese majeste laws have not been used for over a century and Edward VII, who as crown prince was hounded by the press over his various mistresses, famously said, “Publish and be damned”. Ever since then the British royal family has never attempted to take legal action against the media. Today the monarchy is no doubt much stronger as a result. Every foible of theirs is reported in the media which gives them a good chance to guage the public’s feelings about them and correct any excesses before they lead to a potentially terminal loss of popularity, as in the fuss over Princess Di’s death. As HMK, himself, said, it is important for royals to be criticised, since otherwise how will they know, if they have made mistakes.
Letter to Thailand
Jesse #28 and Tony #27 and #30
I was living in Bangkok in 1993 and I distinctly remember Yuwathida/Sujarini/Mrs. CP receiving a PhD in Education from Prasan Mit Teachers’ College, at about the same time she was commissioned major in the Royal Thai Army Intelligence Corps. With two rows of ribbons on her white uniform, and all. I have no doubt that a lady of her education, intelligence, skills and experience would have had little difficulty making a comfortable living in the USA.
Letter to Thailand
Jesse,
1) My point is that she does not have education that would qualify her to apply for a job in US.
2) As we know, Thaksin is supporting the CP. He would not do anything to annoy the CP.
3) Based on her background, the only way she may make a living in US is probably running a Thai restaurant. I never heard anyone make a claim.
4) These lead me to believe that the boys get support from their father. I can’t imagine Yuwasthida somehow could makr a living in US, own a decent house, get her kids to private school and colleges.
No way she could do this all by herself. I think most likely her ex has to pay for her and their children living in US.
The Shinawatra family tree
The Shinawatra clan has a distant connection with Australia. In 1961 Thaksin’s cousin Surajit graduated from the Australian Army Officer Cadet School (OCS) Portsea. In due course he became a helicopter pilot, and was shot down and killed in operations against c0mmunist insurgents in Phrae Province in 1973.
When OCS closed down, its roll of honour was relocated to the Royal Military College (RMC) Duntroon in Canberra. Surajit is listed as Captain S. Chinvat. This is not the correct transliteration of р╕Кр╕┤р╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕г, but then neither is Shinawatra. According to the official Thai government system, it should be Chinawat.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
@John Francis Lee asked: ‘what did the student write on the internet?’
This is what happened (picture inside the thread):
http://www.unigang.com/Topic/4766
It shows what he posted on his facebook account (he used a different name on his FB account). Admittedly, something he posted was quite offensive. But that does not justify jailing him for lengthy terms.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
People being ignorant and malicious is bad enough: when they choose to be so intentionally and write it off as Thainess, they need not wonder why people feel they are insulting the country’s image and reputation. Common sense has not had a welcome mat in Thailand for generations. The country calls itself Buddhist, but does not practice Buddhism. Its people claim the right of suing others for criminal defamation but don’t mind insulting others in the name of the monarchy. It reminds me of those old Robin Hood movies where the real robbers stopped people beside the road and said, “In the name of the king…”
Royalist gatekeepers are perpetuating inhumane practices and calling it Thainess.
Way to go!
Letter to Thailand
Tony # 30 – Check this out:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/worlds-top-100-universities-2010
I am not saying that being on the top 20 list of the world’s best universities give you a monopoly on being ‘right’ but just want you to give some due credit to ANU.
By the way, do you by any chance the same Tony as Tony Cartalucci @landdestroyer?
Crown Prince’s family update?
The letter is authentic. A ‘Times’ reporter confirmed this in an email exchange with the second son, Vacharaesorn, who works for a big law firm in New York State. An article on the subject can be read here:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/asia/article3115503.ece
In correspondence, I understand, the authors of the letter were unwilling to add anything substantive to the content of their publically circulated letter.
(In anticipation of complaint, yes, ‘The Times’ website is behind a paywall. But it costs one pound for which you get the whole site for a whole month. If anyone thinks this is too much, I’ll pay them back myself next time they are in Tokyo…)
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
@Jesse #7
In most countries with laws against defamation, it is only the people who are defamed who can bring charges. Further, the accuser has to prove that damage was done. This is true in academic circles as much as in the society at large.
The Deputy Rector brought charges. He was not insulted or even mentioned. Why is it his right to throw a student in prison when he has no legal standing regarding defamation?
If the comments are true, why is that illegal? If someone accurately reports the news about the (mis)behavior of a member of the Royal Family, the accuracy and truthfulness does not protect the reporter in Thailand, and may in fact make that person even more vulnerable. Can you defend this?
Royal motherhood statement
We all need to fly Etihad(Unity) then. 😀
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Jesse #7 Why not? they have their own representative, no? They can sue anyone to their heart’s content. How can you fit 15yrs for criticizing into a democratic system? Can I land you in jail for that long if you verbally trashed my life & my life’s work? Can I send a lynch mob to your home, if you look at me wrong?
Surely, you must agree that all of the above is seriously wrong. And those who cater to it is WRONG in the HEAD. Just because it’s a law, doesn’t make it any less stupid. People thought that it was ok to have slaves years ago(sadly, we still do), did it make it right?
The Shinawatra family tree
Nice article…..Gives a good idea to all those on how to get rich. That is, it just does not come all of a sadden.