The Lowy Institute – boy that sounds official. However, when you look into them, they are big-business multi-national front that simply spews propaganda and self-serving policy and use their unwarranted influence to push it through into politics and public opinion.
So while Walker will try to impress you by lending legitimacy to this big-business, fake organization, I’m here to tell you to please do yourself a favor and pull back the curtain and see who these people really are. You might also be interested to know they tapped Mr. Andrew Walker for at least one of their research papers and they have a multitude of prominent ANU officials within their ranks.
PS. Andrew Marhsall himself claims that the 3,000 cables he’s using for his hacky “Thai Story,” is only “believed to have been downloaded by US soldier Bradley Manning in Iraq.” So a source you only believe to know where it came from, with unverified hearsay, constitutes a story so big it gets covered for weeks? Consider the “sources” that are crowing over his tenuous proposition and ask yourself what’s in it for them.
Most certainly Walker’s work represents not his own academic, objective studies but an attempt to take big-business agendas and put a liberal, progressive spin on it to fool well intentioned people. Same thing is going on in America over at Harvard’s Belfer Center which claims to be working against “climate change” even though it is named after a crooked oil tycoon and lined with big-oil special interests.
Najib administration and the police however is not taking it in good faith – Police continues to arrest opposition party members, including state politicians and councillors.
All of Kajang’s councillors wearing yellow shirts were arrested this morning at the council’s meeting!
Marshal’s editing and context are good, but the real stars are the cables themselves.
I daresay that cables like 05BANGKOK 7197 “The King and Him; The Opposition Plays Their King Against the Prime Minister” or 09BANGKOK2967 “Thailand: Circles of Influence Inside the Institution of the Monarchy in King Bhumibol’s Twilight” display some of the most astute and deeply insightful analysis on Thailand to be found anywhere. Period.
It’s a combination of having a tremendous amount of intelligence data, a masterful understanding of the political game, and having absolutely no fear of taboo or lese majeste.
Eric John, Susan Sutton, Skip Boyce, we hardly knew ye!
I suspect your reminisces of the period when Phalang Dharma was so popular in Bangkok are correct and that it was based on the feeling of the incorruptibility of Chamlong.
Of course that brings into focus Thaksin’s own rise in esteem from Bangkok’s citizens. Thaksin was of course bought into politics by Chamlong at that time with the plaudits that he was too rich to be corrupt and that he had no need to steal like the other politicians. This probably helped the later TRT victories in Bangkok.
Strange that we now see Chuwit coming through with a similar corruption fighting platform. Is Chuwit a future Thai prime minister?
Can I just add my five cents in about Palang Dharma Party Fever in late 1980s to early 1990s and the Democracy Protest in 1992?
In my opinion, those events do not mean that Bangkokians in general believe in democracy. Palang Dharma Party used the media to get the popularity they used to get from Bangkokians. Chamlong Srimuang took great pains to create an image of a righteous, un-greedy, moralistic man-an image which Bangkokians were not familiar with when it comes to politics. He wears a mo-hom shirt (a shirt which farmers in rural areas wear), he eats vegetarian food. He behaves as if he is a hermit, and that was why his image was seen as someone who is not corrupted, who comes into politics to really do good for the country. But it was the image of Chamlong which Bangkokians see in the media, which made him popular.
Moreover, Thai people were not really serious about the military dictatorship of General Suchinda in the beginning. For some time, there was some dissaticfaction, but the protest had never been anything serious. It was only after Chamlong joined the show which people were influenced to join in the protest against the military dictatorship. And it was because Chamlong had a large influence at that time with the Bangkokians. But the media played a large part in presenting Chamlong’s hermit-like image to make Bangkokians think he is not corrupted.
My point, thus, is that education may not be the sole factor as to why some Thai people’s rationale can be so odd. The media also has a big influence. I used the example of Palang Dharma Party to make an argument as to how one party could be so popular by the image people see its leaders from the media.
But Thai education certainly has a role. It is true that education is not the sole factor, the media aso plays a big part in distorting Thai people’s rationale. However, the education plays a considerable part. What is taught in Thai history classes at school should be revised. Many parts of history have been omitted and distorted. In fact, someone should realy do a research on the current distortion and omission of Thai history in the school curriculum, and the effect they have on the modern Thai society 😉
@John in BKK,
I also hope the yellow/PAD will not have their rationale that way forever. Some of their assertions/beliefs/the way they deny the blatant truth are just so ridiculous I could not believe that some of those people are actually engineers, doctors, dentists etc.
Neptunian.
This is 2011 and still Thailand’s Sino Thai elites use the idea of ‘western imperialism’ as an effective propaganda tool so as they can continue their monopolies.
Yes all Thais are ‘nationals’ but they are far from equal. If they were there wouldn’t be such disparity in the kingdom.
It may be a ‘bitter pill’ to take but the reality is that Thailand as well as many other south east Asian nations proclaim to be democracies but are just the opposite. Thai elites and their cronies have no legitimate right to control the country as the country is supposed to be a democracy. That its not doesn’t taste good at all.!!!!!
Les (#50), you give a good rational rebuttal to Robin’s post #47, but alas, such arguments are lost a cause. I have always thought a well researched study of why a certain class of expats residing in Thailand holds such hatred of the Thai class of Chinese decent would be an interesting read.
For now, though such posts, even which coached in such intellectual terms as Robin attempted, as opposed to the insult and hate filled ones you see on other forums, only say much more about the poster and his issues then the Thai middle class.
Some more thoughts on the cables. I just dipped my toe into Andrew Marshall’s archive and I fear my work will suffer as there are some real gems. It’s not just information we never knew from behind the diplomatic curtain, it’s information we should know but barely remember. (Maybe younger brains don’t forget quite as much as mine.)
It’s like having a ‘best of’ music album, except in this case it’s the best of the news archives. Let’s take one little example from 2005 that’s close to the top and I just opened.
In the last day or so there has been a discussion on the new PT goverment’s attitude to the lese majestie law. In the cable linked below we see what their attitude was just after they had won a previous election.
PS: I would dispute the statement that Thais believe “there won’t be any electoral violations”. That’s just absolute crap. Even Yingluck publicly raised concerns about the integrity of box handling and storage.
Do you mean that the only “good” land owners are “WASP” (white anglo-saxon protestant)?
Whether thaksin and other srae of “chinese” origin or not is quite irrelavant here. They are all Thais nationals. Colluding with the “natives” to buy land and control the economy is a lot better than – killing off or enslaving the natives – in the name of the queen!
If my recollection of history serves me right, that is what the “west” did all over the world. So if you will please excuse me, do not go in that direction with your arguements. It just does not taste good!
It will take about 10 days to have everything online, but by the end of today day there should be an almost full set of 2004, 2005 and 2006 cables. The exception is cables on the South: they need special care to redact and I will do the ‘political’ cables first. But everything will be online by late next week.
I probably should wait for the entire essay, but the quote really has me wondering who exactly thinks that one woman’s struggle will bring freedom to all?
It appears that for Western observers their perspective is idealistically skewed viewing the ‘Red vs. Yellow’ debate as liberal democratic forces versus outmoded monarchy/military power, which is rather oversimplifying things. Although the 2006 coup was highly controversial, lets not forget the powder keg the Thai Rak Thai party under Thaksin ignited in the Deep South of Thailand, destroying the past decade of restorative peace initiatives between Buddhist and Muslim Thai relations. Furthermore, in 2006, then Foreign Minister (of Australia) Alexander Downer condemned the Thai military for ousting an allegedly corrupt, but democratically elected government. Which was rather ironic since it was apparently fine for Coalition (foreign) forces to oust the leader of Iraq (a sovereign state).
Additionally I don’t think it is unreasonable for people to be bringing up the past political instability/crimes/mass murders that occurred under Thaksin’s time as head of the Thai state. The issue is not whether or not people acknowledge this before speaking, it’s rather people seem to be highly biased against the Democrat party and are painting them as incompetent trigger happy thugs, while at the same time illustrating Thaksin as the future of a unified and democratic Thailand.
Comments such as, ‘The election results demonstrate how Aphisit’s crackdown on Red protesters in 2010 was excessive, shameful, and a complete strategic failure. All the Dems had to do is establish a reasonable time for new elections to end the protests.’ illustrates this point well. At the time the Aphisit government had arranged reasonable election time lines, however opposition then made more (unreasonable) demands which contributed to the break down of negotiations and led to the riots. Plus Bangkok was hardly the image of stability before those riots owing to Red shirt protestors burning down significant buildings in the CBD of Bangkok and significantly damaging the economy by halting business in those sectors. The problem was both sides had a lot of unaddressed grievances that kept escalating. So no one side is to blame, both sides played a part.
Overall lets have some balance here. Don’t paint Thaksin as a heroic man of the people, because that is an idealistic delusion, and lets give some credit to the Aphisit government. They were in a bad situation trying to do the best they could. This post probably sounds very bias, but I’m simply trying to balance out the idealistic bias already posted.
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More on Marshall’s Thai Story
The Lowy Institute – boy that sounds official. However, when you look into them, they are big-business multi-national front that simply spews propaganda and self-serving policy and use their unwarranted influence to push it through into politics and public opinion.
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/07/globalists-australian-nexus.html
http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Board.asp
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/05/which-path-to-persia-redux.html
So while Walker will try to impress you by lending legitimacy to this big-business, fake organization, I’m here to tell you to please do yourself a favor and pull back the curtain and see who these people really are. You might also be interested to know they tapped Mr. Andrew Walker for at least one of their research papers and they have a multitude of prominent ANU officials within their ranks.
PS. Andrew Marhsall himself claims that the 3,000 cables he’s using for his hacky “Thai Story,” is only “believed to have been downloaded by US soldier Bradley Manning in Iraq.” So a source you only believe to know where it came from, with unverified hearsay, constitutes a story so big it gets covered for weeks? Consider the “sources” that are crowing over his tenuous proposition and ask yourself what’s in it for them.
Most certainly Walker’s work represents not his own academic, objective studies but an attempt to take big-business agendas and put a liberal, progressive spin on it to fool well intentioned people. Same thing is going on in America over at Harvard’s Belfer Center which claims to be working against “climate change” even though it is named after a crooked oil tycoon and lined with big-oil special interests.
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/02/big-oils-tree-huggers.html
UMNO – Malaysia’s scourge
Hai # 1,
Najib administration and the police however is not taking it in good faith – Police continues to arrest opposition party members, including state politicians and councillors.
All of Kajang’s councillors wearing yellow shirts were arrested this morning at the council’s meeting!
More on Marshall’s Thai Story
Marshal’s editing and context are good, but the real stars are the cables themselves.
I daresay that cables like 05BANGKOK 7197 “The King and Him; The Opposition Plays Their King Against the Prime Minister” or 09BANGKOK2967 “Thailand: Circles of Influence Inside the Institution of the Monarchy in King Bhumibol’s Twilight” display some of the most astute and deeply insightful analysis on Thailand to be found anywhere. Period.
It’s a combination of having a tremendous amount of intelligence data, a masterful understanding of the political game, and having absolutely no fear of taboo or lese majeste.
Eric John, Susan Sutton, Skip Boyce, we hardly knew ye!
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
CT – 52
I suspect your reminisces of the period when Phalang Dharma was so popular in Bangkok are correct and that it was based on the feeling of the incorruptibility of Chamlong.
Of course that brings into focus Thaksin’s own rise in esteem from Bangkok’s citizens. Thaksin was of course bought into politics by Chamlong at that time with the plaudits that he was too rich to be corrupt and that he had no need to steal like the other politicians. This probably helped the later TRT victories in Bangkok.
Strange that we now see Chuwit coming through with a similar corruption fighting platform. Is Chuwit a future Thai prime minister?
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
Can I just add my five cents in about Palang Dharma Party Fever in late 1980s to early 1990s and the Democracy Protest in 1992?
In my opinion, those events do not mean that Bangkokians in general believe in democracy. Palang Dharma Party used the media to get the popularity they used to get from Bangkokians. Chamlong Srimuang took great pains to create an image of a righteous, un-greedy, moralistic man-an image which Bangkokians were not familiar with when it comes to politics. He wears a mo-hom shirt (a shirt which farmers in rural areas wear), he eats vegetarian food. He behaves as if he is a hermit, and that was why his image was seen as someone who is not corrupted, who comes into politics to really do good for the country. But it was the image of Chamlong which Bangkokians see in the media, which made him popular.
Moreover, Thai people were not really serious about the military dictatorship of General Suchinda in the beginning. For some time, there was some dissaticfaction, but the protest had never been anything serious. It was only after Chamlong joined the show which people were influenced to join in the protest against the military dictatorship. And it was because Chamlong had a large influence at that time with the Bangkokians. But the media played a large part in presenting Chamlong’s hermit-like image to make Bangkokians think he is not corrupted.
My point, thus, is that education may not be the sole factor as to why some Thai people’s rationale can be so odd. The media also has a big influence. I used the example of Palang Dharma Party to make an argument as to how one party could be so popular by the image people see its leaders from the media.
But Thai education certainly has a role. It is true that education is not the sole factor, the media aso plays a big part in distorting Thai people’s rationale. However, the education plays a considerable part. What is taught in Thai history classes at school should be revised. Many parts of history have been omitted and distorted. In fact, someone should realy do a research on the current distortion and omission of Thai history in the school curriculum, and the effect they have on the modern Thai society 😉
@John in BKK,
I also hope the yellow/PAD will not have their rationale that way forever. Some of their assertions/beliefs/the way they deny the blatant truth are just so ridiculous I could not believe that some of those people are actually engineers, doctors, dentists etc.
Kevin Rudd and Aung San Suu Kyi
Aiontay: Only most of the Western mainstream media.
Thailand’s precarious politics
Neptunian.
This is 2011 and still Thailand’s Sino Thai elites use the idea of ‘western imperialism’ as an effective propaganda tool so as they can continue their monopolies.
Yes all Thais are ‘nationals’ but they are far from equal. If they were there wouldn’t be such disparity in the kingdom.
It may be a ‘bitter pill’ to take but the reality is that Thailand as well as many other south east Asian nations proclaim to be democracies but are just the opposite. Thai elites and their cronies have no legitimate right to control the country as the country is supposed to be a democracy. That its not doesn’t taste good at all.!!!!!
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
Les (#50), you give a good rational rebuttal to Robin’s post #47, but alas, such arguments are lost a cause. I have always thought a well researched study of why a certain class of expats residing in Thailand holds such hatred of the Thai class of Chinese decent would be an interesting read.
For now, though such posts, even which coached in such intellectual terms as Robin attempted, as opposed to the insult and hate filled ones you see on other forums, only say much more about the poster and his issues then the Thai middle class.
Thailand’s precarious politics
Hmmm, Some long discussions here.
Notthe Nations latest has summed the issue up brilliantly IMO:
http://notthenation.com/2011/07/army-thaksin-pleased-with-successful-illusion-of-difference/
I think it deserves a link on your site and some in depth analysis!
plus ca change….
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Some more thoughts on the cables. I just dipped my toe into Andrew Marshall’s archive and I fear my work will suffer as there are some real gems. It’s not just information we never knew from behind the diplomatic curtain, it’s information we should know but barely remember. (Maybe younger brains don’t forget quite as much as mine.)
It’s like having a ‘best of’ music album, except in this case it’s the best of the news archives. Let’s take one little example from 2005 that’s close to the top and I just opened.
In the last day or so there has been a discussion on the new PT goverment’s attitude to the lese majestie law. In the cable linked below we see what their attitude was just after they had won a previous election.
http://www.zenjournalist.com/2011/06/05bangkok1774/
UMNO – Malaysia’s scourge
Hey, Mr de Cruz.
Ms Ambiga and gang have agreed to the Agung’s request that the rally be held at a stadium, this Saturday. Cheers.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Andrew Marshall – 172
Many thanks Andrew.
Thailand better than Malaysia
PS: I would dispute the statement that Thais believe “there won’t be any electoral violations”. That’s just absolute crap. Even Yingluck publicly raised concerns about the integrity of box handling and storage.
Thailand better than Malaysia
Can you think of an ABAC poll that wasn’t poorly conducted? They aren’t known for the quality of their ‘random’ sampling.
Thailand’s precarious politics
Hai John #31,
Do you mean that the only “good” land owners are “WASP” (white anglo-saxon protestant)?
Whether thaksin and other srae of “chinese” origin or not is quite irrelavant here. They are all Thais nationals. Colluding with the “natives” to buy land and control the economy is a lot better than – killing off or enslaving the natives – in the name of the queen!
If my recollection of history serves me right, that is what the “west” did all over the world. So if you will please excuse me, do not go in that direction with your arguements. It just does not taste good!
Yingluck and Thailand’s women
Good discussion by Tania Branigan in the Guardian.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
For all those who want to view the raw cables, I am building a full archive here: http://www.zenjournalist.com/2011/07/index-of-leaked-u-s-cables-on-thailand/
It will take about 10 days to have everything online, but by the end of today day there should be an almost full set of 2004, 2005 and 2006 cables. The exception is cables on the South: they need special care to redact and I will do the ‘political’ cables first. But everything will be online by late next week.
Best regards.
Kevin Rudd and Aung San Suu Kyi
I probably should wait for the entire essay, but the quote really has me wondering who exactly thinks that one woman’s struggle will bring freedom to all?
Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra
It appears that for Western observers their perspective is idealistically skewed viewing the ‘Red vs. Yellow’ debate as liberal democratic forces versus outmoded monarchy/military power, which is rather oversimplifying things. Although the 2006 coup was highly controversial, lets not forget the powder keg the Thai Rak Thai party under Thaksin ignited in the Deep South of Thailand, destroying the past decade of restorative peace initiatives between Buddhist and Muslim Thai relations. Furthermore, in 2006, then Foreign Minister (of Australia) Alexander Downer condemned the Thai military for ousting an allegedly corrupt, but democratically elected government. Which was rather ironic since it was apparently fine for Coalition (foreign) forces to oust the leader of Iraq (a sovereign state).
Additionally I don’t think it is unreasonable for people to be bringing up the past political instability/crimes/mass murders that occurred under Thaksin’s time as head of the Thai state. The issue is not whether or not people acknowledge this before speaking, it’s rather people seem to be highly biased against the Democrat party and are painting them as incompetent trigger happy thugs, while at the same time illustrating Thaksin as the future of a unified and democratic Thailand.
Comments such as, ‘The election results demonstrate how Aphisit’s crackdown on Red protesters in 2010 was excessive, shameful, and a complete strategic failure. All the Dems had to do is establish a reasonable time for new elections to end the protests.’ illustrates this point well. At the time the Aphisit government had arranged reasonable election time lines, however opposition then made more (unreasonable) demands which contributed to the break down of negotiations and led to the riots. Plus Bangkok was hardly the image of stability before those riots owing to Red shirt protestors burning down significant buildings in the CBD of Bangkok and significantly damaging the economy by halting business in those sectors. The problem was both sides had a lot of unaddressed grievances that kept escalating. So no one side is to blame, both sides played a part.
Overall lets have some balance here. Don’t paint Thaksin as a heroic man of the people, because that is an idealistic delusion, and lets give some credit to the Aphisit government. They were in a bad situation trying to do the best they could. This post probably sounds very bias, but I’m simply trying to balance out the idealistic bias already posted.
Regional voting
Thanks Brent. It does make more sense than the conspiracy theories.