“A rather balanced, (yes I know that’s a bad word to some), article…”
It’s a “bad word” to whom, exactly? Just how many more straw men have you got ready to parade? You throw out these generalised snide remarks in post after post…. and you still wonder why you get so many red thumbs?
Nick….. correct about the “straw man” part – it has become an all-too-familiar gambit (along with all the innuendo and disingenuous/loaded questions) from some here.
Just one observation (seeing as PC is in the air): I think “queer” isn’t really considered acceptable except when used by someone who is openly gay – and usually in gay company. Rather like it being OK for blacks to say “nigger” in black company.
That quibble aside, it’s good to have your informed input on this – even though it won’t stop some from creatively using whatever stick they can find to poke into what they so plainly want to attack.
“He is also a ‘dial a quote’ person for some sections of the foreign press who have not lived through the worst of a Thaksin government.”
A bit of a cryptic sentence. What does that mean, please?
This member of the foreign press here has lived through the worst of many successive governments here, but what “the worst” is for some, does not mean the same for others.
For many long time journos who have found their own little arrangements with the system Chuan was “the best”, status quo was nice, easy dinners with the elites, don’t rock the boat and have a ball. What a lifestyle.
For many Thai villagers and lower class urbanites it was “the worst” – great speeches at Bangkok’s microphones, yet no budgets trickled through to village level. Chuan 2 allowed drug economy to take over the communities, families destroyed, etc.
It is all a question of perspective, and in some ways the most irrelevant perspectives are sprouted in posh sub-urban elite Mu-Bans or Sukhumvit’s penthouses – lots of “full education” to be found there, and almost complete lack of common sense.
“And yet James Alex where were these gay red shirts when the homophobic attacks outside Prem’s house were going on a couple of years back? Were they still in the closet?”
That is all a bit of a strawman being built up here – CM51 protested against the gay march, therefore the Red Shirts must be a bigoted intolerant movement.
Sorry, but no.
I got many images of Katoey Red Shirts, some of them very active, others who join in on occasions. Also one of the most radical speakers on Daeng Siam stages (formerly part of the Saturday Group, and at Sanam Luang stages) is quite openly queer, and has since years excelled in insulting Prem along the gender lines, in most outrageous ways.
“Yellow-shirt core member Chamlong Srimuang was unable to vote in today’s general election as his name remained on the voting list in Kanchanaburi province, where he voted last time.
Maj Gen Chamlong went to a polling station in Bangkok’s Dusit district this morning but his name was not on the current voter list.”
Ironic, karma – or what? More seriously, a few more high-profile screw-ups like this may induce the observers to be somewhat less glib with their compliments on how wonderfully the EC has [cough] “managed” the election. A reported 500,000 (about 20%) of registered advance voters being turned away last Sunday strikes me as falling rather short of “international standards”…..
The Malaysian press or Mainstream Media (MSM) have all condemned the Bersih march, toeing the ruling party’s line likening it as a threat to national security. Some web forums/blogs/news sites who received financial assistance from the government do the same in a surreptitious manner whilst maintaining an “independent” stance. One particular news portal, Malaysian Insider, even blocks any adverse comments on the Government, the PM and Dr Mahathir, the ex-PM in an attempt to practise self-censorship so as not to run foul of the ruling party.
How wearing a yellow shirt in a peaceful demonstation in a democratic country can be construed as disloyalty and treason against the King is really beyond the comprehension of any reasonable person. I suppose this only happens in Malaysia where those in power are paranoid as Assad’s government in Syria. What a group of jackasses and laughing storks.
Angelo Michel….. Simply too many errors of fact in your posts to deal with them all.
But to tackle just a few of the most obvious;
The Franco-Siamese commission maps were and are still in “the Thai government libraries”. More than that, Thai authorities also published their own maps accurately reproducing the border as depicted on those earlier maps.
Thailand moved into (“re-occupied” if you like) swathes of previously French-controlled Khmer territory (and not in 1940, BTW) at the invitation and behest of the Japanese – who were very keen to draw Thailand into their orbit as a strategic partner. Note however that many in the Thai government were opposed to doing this – just as they were opposed to anything that would be viewed by the Allies as active collaboration with Japan. It was then-PM Field Marshal Phibun who sidestepped all opposition and followed a clearly pro-Japanese and short-term self-serving expansionist policy – likewise gaining transfer of the northern Malay states in 1943.
Fair to say, the earlier French colonial approach had been to eat into Thai territory (particularly on the east bank of the Mekong) and Thailand had been too weak to block all the encroachment – but that doesn’t apply to Preah Vihear. As CT suggests, you really do need to read at least the summary of the ICJ judgment before writing here. I’d also suggest that you look at Direk Jayanama’s excellent insider’s account “Thailand & World War II”.
James Alex is right. Ji Ungkaporn is irrelevant. He is a lecturer with very strong socialist views (not necessarily anything wrong with that) who has hitched his wagon to the red-shirts. He will unhitch at a later date.
He is also a ‘dial a quote’ person for some sections of the foreign press who have not lived through the worst of a Thaksin government.
Of course there are red-shirts who do not support Thaksin, but the point is they are SILENT.
Similarly while the gay protests are a little irrelevant they are a reminder that the red shirts in the main do not have any political maturity, because the majority of their voters have not gone through a full education.
This is something foreigners in Thailand may learn to their cost. But its not about us.
Although the government has no control over world commodity price but that is not an excuse for the total collaps of palm oil supply. Never in Thailand history that people have to line up for cooking oil, specially for the agriculture like Thailand. If you did some research, while we were buying the cooking oil at 47 baht a bottle, the farmer was selling palm seed at 2 baht a kilo, way below world market around $300-400/tonne then (have to check on this one but it should be around there). Furthermore, its not about price rise but but how they let the price incrase. The cooking oil price jump from 23 baht to 47 baht over night, that’s certainly not healthy for economy. They need to let the price increase gradually not a sudden jump like what Abhisit did. Lastly, they can always import extra palm oil to compensate for the shortage since the palm oil price from Malaysia and Indonesia are much lower than in Thailand anyway, but guess who is the head of palm oil board??
For the far south, one of the biggest myths is that the Malay Muslim population is anti-Thaksin. Attitudes toward Thaksin and Puea Thai are far more nuanced than most reports recognize, which just goes to show how much researchers and journalists rely on preconceived assumptions about Malay Muslims rather than actually spending time talking with them.
One seemingly widespread view among Malay Muslims is that Thaksin is liked for his populist-like policies, but not for his “strong-fisted” approach (which he has recently admitted was a mistake). Many people feel that their economic situation was better under Thaksin, and for that reason they would like to see Peua Thai win this election. I have also met many people who praised Thaksin for his crack-down on drugs in the region; others have praised him without ever mentioning his strong-fisted approach.
I also have learned that there is a large section of people, especially among the intellectual classes, who respect Thaksin for rocking the foundations of “network monarchy.” Now, many Malay Muslims who have strong nationalist sentiments see a Peua Thai government as the only hope for pushing for political reforms. These folks look at the Democrat Party and see that it is not willing to offer anything in terms of political restructuring. The Dems just seem to want to improve the use of an archaic form of governance, the SBPAC.
I’m open to correction on this, but I doubt that Ji was in full unfettered anti-monarchy republican flow (as seen from him since) when on a “red stage addressing thousands of reds” in early 2009. It’s difficult to imagine expression of those views not triggering strong reactions from many quarters.
I certainly wish that the overall red leadership had come out unequivocally to at least distance themselves from and better actually condemn CM51’s bizarre “it’s not Lanna” anti-gay actions (actually it was mainly anti a march to promote HIV awareness that included a high proportion of gays). That said, I don’t find the lack of full-on condemnation all that surprising for such a diverse and still maturing movement that has so many leaders/co-leaders and is still struggling to achieve/maintain cohesion. I think it also fits in with a general Thai tendency to want to overlook many inconvenient realities.
Likewise, it just strikes me as patently absurd to expect that disparate gay red-shirts would somehow instantly coalesce in a concerted move to block homophobic references to Prem. The stark political reality is that there was/is such a scale of heartfelt resentment of Prem and all his works that it would take a brave (and perfect) soul to try and say “Oh, but we shouldn’t mention that this great upstanding medal-bedecked authority figure is actually an old queen”. Difficult to imagine that this element of opposing Prem would happen now in a politically more mature situation (e.g. in the west – at least the non-Catholic west), but not surprising here. It ain’t pretty and I dislike it – but it is reality.
That still-developing movements in such a fraught situation are not perfectly PC is hardly breaking news is it?
And the fact that some prices went up, the thai government cannot control prices of anything that is speculated on The Chicago Mercantile Exchange, it can barely control the parity of its currency, all rethoric on that kind of subject is pure retribution !
For your memory, there was a time -and not in the distant past, when there were “stocks” of rice to control the price …
Till one day they found the rice was coming in, and going out some hours after, there was nothing in the “strategic stock” !
What is lacking in this country, is not demagogues billionaires that are “for the poor” but honest people that do not think of their interest first (or their family 555), but, following a great example, people who think of the common interest …
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July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
c12
“A rather balanced, (yes I know that’s a bad word to some), article…”
It’s a “bad word” to whom, exactly? Just how many more straw men have you got ready to parade? You throw out these generalised snide remarks in post after post…. and you still wonder why you get so many red thumbs?
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Jakrapop and Mingkwan has also been subject ridicule based their perceived sexual orientation. One side is not different than the other.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
c159
Nick….. correct about the “straw man” part – it has become an all-too-familiar gambit (along with all the innuendo and disingenuous/loaded questions) from some here.
Just one observation (seeing as PC is in the air): I think “queer” isn’t really considered acceptable except when used by someone who is openly gay – and usually in gay company. Rather like it being OK for blacks to say “nigger” in black company.
That quibble aside, it’s good to have your informed input on this – even though it won’t stop some from creatively using whatever stick they can find to poke into what they so plainly want to attack.
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
A rather balanced, (yes I know that’s a bad word to some), article in the UK’s Guardian newspaper about today’s election.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/03/thaksin-shinawatra-thailand
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Nick Nostitz – 159
Nick I’m not quite sure what your defense of the homophobic attacks on Prem is. Is it if you are gay you are then allowed to make them?
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
“Andrew D”:
“He is also a ‘dial a quote’ person for some sections of the foreign press who have not lived through the worst of a Thaksin government.”
A bit of a cryptic sentence. What does that mean, please?
This member of the foreign press here has lived through the worst of many successive governments here, but what “the worst” is for some, does not mean the same for others.
For many long time journos who have found their own little arrangements with the system Chuan was “the best”, status quo was nice, easy dinners with the elites, don’t rock the boat and have a ball. What a lifestyle.
For many Thai villagers and lower class urbanites it was “the worst” – great speeches at Bangkok’s microphones, yet no budgets trickled through to village level. Chuan 2 allowed drug economy to take over the communities, families destroyed, etc.
It is all a question of perspective, and in some ways the most irrelevant perspectives are sprouted in posh sub-urban elite Mu-Bans or Sukhumvit’s penthouses – lots of “full education” to be found there, and almost complete lack of common sense.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
“LesAbbey”:
“And yet James Alex where were these gay red shirts when the homophobic attacks outside Prem’s house were going on a couple of years back? Were they still in the closet?”
That is all a bit of a strawman being built up here – CM51 protested against the gay march, therefore the Red Shirts must be a bigoted intolerant movement.
Sorry, but no.
I got many images of Katoey Red Shirts, some of them very active, others who join in on occasions. Also one of the most radical speakers on Daeng Siam stages (formerly part of the Saturday Group, and at Sanam Luang stages) is quite openly queer, and has since years excelled in insulting Prem along the gender lines, in most outrageous ways.
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
Abhisit voting: http://yfrog.com/h4b2rojej
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
c3
Seeing as you harp on about it, just who are all those people who wrote what you describe so colourfully?
Do you just bunch together anyone who has questioned when elections would be held and just how “free and fair” they would be?
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
c4
Try “…applying the law selectively to parties…”
There is a key difference from what you wrote – and no inconsistency between the above and “legal manipulation”.
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
From Bangkok Post*:
“Yellow-shirt core member Chamlong Srimuang was unable to vote in today’s general election as his name remained on the voting list in Kanchanaburi province, where he voted last time.
Maj Gen Chamlong went to a polling station in Bangkok’s Dusit district this morning but his name was not on the current voter list.”
Ironic, karma – or what? More seriously, a few more high-profile screw-ups like this may induce the observers to be somewhat less glib with their compliments on how wonderfully the EC has [cough] “managed” the election. A reported 500,000 (about 20%) of registered advance voters being turned away last Sunday strikes me as falling rather short of “international standards”…..
http://tinyurl.com/3gqvaed
Malaysia: Yellow is the new Black
The Malaysian press or Mainstream Media (MSM) have all condemned the Bersih march, toeing the ruling party’s line likening it as a threat to national security. Some web forums/blogs/news sites who received financial assistance from the government do the same in a surreptitious manner whilst maintaining an “independent” stance. One particular news portal, Malaysian Insider, even blocks any adverse comments on the Government, the PM and Dr Mahathir, the ex-PM in an attempt to practise self-censorship so as not to run foul of the ruling party.
How wearing a yellow shirt in a peaceful demonstation in a democratic country can be construed as disloyalty and treason against the King is really beyond the comprehension of any reasonable person. I suppose this only happens in Malaysia where those in power are paranoid as Assad’s government in Syria. What a group of jackasses and laughing storks.
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
Angelo Michel….. Simply too many errors of fact in your posts to deal with them all.
But to tackle just a few of the most obvious;
The Franco-Siamese commission maps were and are still in “the Thai government libraries”. More than that, Thai authorities also published their own maps accurately reproducing the border as depicted on those earlier maps.
Thailand moved into (“re-occupied” if you like) swathes of previously French-controlled Khmer territory (and not in 1940, BTW) at the invitation and behest of the Japanese – who were very keen to draw Thailand into their orbit as a strategic partner. Note however that many in the Thai government were opposed to doing this – just as they were opposed to anything that would be viewed by the Allies as active collaboration with Japan. It was then-PM Field Marshal Phibun who sidestepped all opposition and followed a clearly pro-Japanese and short-term self-serving expansionist policy – likewise gaining transfer of the northern Malay states in 1943.
Fair to say, the earlier French colonial approach had been to eat into Thai territory (particularly on the east bank of the Mekong) and Thailand had been too weak to block all the encroachment – but that doesn’t apply to Preah Vihear. As CT suggests, you really do need to read at least the summary of the ICJ judgment before writing here. I’d also suggest that you look at Direk Jayanama’s excellent insider’s account “Thailand & World War II”.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
James Alex is right. Ji Ungkaporn is irrelevant. He is a lecturer with very strong socialist views (not necessarily anything wrong with that) who has hitched his wagon to the red-shirts. He will unhitch at a later date.
He is also a ‘dial a quote’ person for some sections of the foreign press who have not lived through the worst of a Thaksin government.
Of course there are red-shirts who do not support Thaksin, but the point is they are SILENT.
Similarly while the gay protests are a little irrelevant they are a reminder that the red shirts in the main do not have any political maturity, because the majority of their voters have not gone through a full education.
This is something foreigners in Thailand may learn to their cost. But its not about us.
Could end up a little bit Orwellian.
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
Angelo Michel – 29
Although the government has no control over world commodity price but that is not an excuse for the total collaps of palm oil supply. Never in Thailand history that people have to line up for cooking oil, specially for the agriculture like Thailand. If you did some research, while we were buying the cooking oil at 47 baht a bottle, the farmer was selling palm seed at 2 baht a kilo, way below world market around $300-400/tonne then (have to check on this one but it should be around there). Furthermore, its not about price rise but but how they let the price incrase. The cooking oil price jump from 23 baht to 47 baht over night, that’s certainly not healthy for economy. They need to let the price increase gradually not a sudden jump like what Abhisit did. Lastly, they can always import extra palm oil to compensate for the shortage since the palm oil price from Malaysia and Indonesia are much lower than in Thailand anyway, but guess who is the head of palm oil board??
Debunking Democrat dominance in the South
Simon,
For the far south, one of the biggest myths is that the Malay Muslim population is anti-Thaksin. Attitudes toward Thaksin and Puea Thai are far more nuanced than most reports recognize, which just goes to show how much researchers and journalists rely on preconceived assumptions about Malay Muslims rather than actually spending time talking with them.
One seemingly widespread view among Malay Muslims is that Thaksin is liked for his populist-like policies, but not for his “strong-fisted” approach (which he has recently admitted was a mistake). Many people feel that their economic situation was better under Thaksin, and for that reason they would like to see Peua Thai win this election. I have also met many people who praised Thaksin for his crack-down on drugs in the region; others have praised him without ever mentioning his strong-fisted approach.
I also have learned that there is a large section of people, especially among the intellectual classes, who respect Thaksin for rocking the foundations of “network monarchy.” Now, many Malay Muslims who have strong nationalist sentiments see a Peua Thai government as the only hope for pushing for political reforms. These folks look at the Democrat Party and see that it is not willing to offer anything in terms of political restructuring. The Dems just seem to want to improve the use of an archaic form of governance, the SBPAC.
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
The above Photos concluded the whole story . Good jobs Andrew Walker Thumb up.
July 3: Thailand’s crucial test
Voting in Chiang Rai: http://yfrog.com/h0umjboj
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
James Alex – c154
I’m open to correction on this, but I doubt that Ji was in full unfettered anti-monarchy republican flow (as seen from him since) when on a “red stage addressing thousands of reds” in early 2009. It’s difficult to imagine expression of those views not triggering strong reactions from many quarters.
I certainly wish that the overall red leadership had come out unequivocally to at least distance themselves from and better actually condemn CM51’s bizarre “it’s not Lanna” anti-gay actions (actually it was mainly anti a march to promote HIV awareness that included a high proportion of gays). That said, I don’t find the lack of full-on condemnation all that surprising for such a diverse and still maturing movement that has so many leaders/co-leaders and is still struggling to achieve/maintain cohesion. I think it also fits in with a general Thai tendency to want to overlook many inconvenient realities.
Likewise, it just strikes me as patently absurd to expect that disparate gay red-shirts would somehow instantly coalesce in a concerted move to block homophobic references to Prem. The stark political reality is that there was/is such a scale of heartfelt resentment of Prem and all his works that it would take a brave (and perfect) soul to try and say “Oh, but we shouldn’t mention that this great upstanding medal-bedecked authority figure is actually an old queen”. Difficult to imagine that this element of opposing Prem would happen now in a politically more mature situation (e.g. in the west – at least the non-Catholic west), but not surprising here. It ain’t pretty and I dislike it – but it is reality.
That still-developing movements in such a fraught situation are not perfectly PC is hardly breaking news is it?
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
@Arthurson
About the policies, it seems they do NOT matter at all, and there are polls that show this : http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2011/06/20/opinion/Blind-loyalty-not-policies-seem-to-matter-for-some-30158200.html
And the fact that some prices went up, the thai government cannot control prices of anything that is speculated on The Chicago Mercantile Exchange, it can barely control the parity of its currency, all rethoric on that kind of subject is pure retribution !
For your memory, there was a time -and not in the distant past, when there were “stocks” of rice to control the price …
Till one day they found the rice was coming in, and going out some hours after, there was nothing in the “strategic stock” !
What is lacking in this country, is not demagogues billionaires that are “for the poor” but honest people that do not think of their interest first (or their family 555), but, following a great example, people who think of the common interest …