So any reason why we having one now when there is a good chance that Phue Thai will win?
========
There is one thing one must know about the Thais – especially the good old elites Bangkokians, and that is they love face. In that way, they are very chinese – that’s right, most of them (us) that’s not amongst the Thai version of aristocrats are actually of chinese blood!
Face is so important to us. And you must understand, for the last few decades, we ARE the BIGGEST DEMOCRACY is southeast asia. We ARE the US’s greatest allies in the region. We are LEGIT. That is so very important. We must have an election so that the world can see we ARE legit, and we ARE still the biggest democracy in SEA.
How could we not win? The Democrat Party running for election in a Democratic country – the biggest in SEA. We are smart, educated, classy, loyal to the King, patriotic to the country. Of course we must hold elections, not to prove ourselves, you know. We hold elections because democracies hold elections (whatever that mean) and of course the democrat party will win in any democratic election. What other party can uphold democratic values as well as democrat party?
(The above paragraph is not mine but a paraphrase of a friend, Masters graduate Cambridge, hardcore democrat voter.)
I think the issue of animal vs human rights in this context is a bit of a non sequitur. It doesn’t follow from simultaneously supporting a ban of live cattle trade *and* the rejection of refugees that you prioritise animal over human rights. Similarly, it doesn’t follow from prioritising human over animal rights that you can’t be outraged at the treatment of animals and yet support (lets call it) the Howard doctrine on refugees.
You asked through email,
“What I really want to know is why the government is holding on to the Malaysia solution in the face of intense opposition (from ALP, Greens, A.I., U.N special rapportuer, etc) but caved in so easily to the demands from animal rights supporters.”
This is really a matter of politics. It was easy to put in place an instant ban on the live animal trade and then find a more nuanced response later because there’s no real electoral pressure against doing that. I don’t think it was a matter of caving to pressure, there was never any hold out against a ban that was eventually beaten down, it was a matter of being appalled at a revelation (to them at least, no revelation to me) and reacting to it.
As for the deal with Malaysia, Labor is essentially clumsy at politics. The Labor apparatchiks and all their focus groups tell its leaders that implementing humane refugee policies is bad politics. The reason its perceived as bad politics is basically because the Liberals have managed to frame it as tough vs weak responses to ‘que jumpers’ and ‘illegal immigrants’, and effective vs ineffective at ‘stopping the boats’. Labor has positioned itself politically against the Howard doctrine, but hasn’t managed to come up with an effective method of disarming the political alarmism over ‘boat-people arrivals’. They announced a deal with Malaysia because they felt pressure to announce *something* that wasn’t Nauru when Tony Abbot started hyperventilating over the number of new arrivals. But if UNHCR don’t support it, it wont get through parliament since half the Labor party (Gillard’s faction) declared they wont support it otherwise. So I think they will drop the Malaysian deal in the end, but they need a replacement policy before they do that so they don’t look like a government without a policy at all.
The problem is they don’t have too many options for ‘outsourcing’ the solution. 142 countries out of 192 countries worldwide have ratified both the 1951 Convention, and the 1967 Protocol relating to refugees, but amongst ASEAN countries, only Cambodia and the Philippines have.
[http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b73b0d63.pdf]
So of the 50 countries that haven’t ratified both, 8 are ASEAN countries. Eventually, I think they are going to have to make this a matter for some intense regional diplomacy. In the meantime, they will have to either come up with a solution that doesn’t rely on sending unauthorised arrivals to a third country, or suffer some serious political defeats at the next election. Sadly, my money is on the latter.
I don’t have much hope for the current Liberal Party, but if Labor decided to follow conviction instead of focus groups, I’d be much less depressed about the state of this country (and they’d probably turn around their pathetic poll numbers). They could start by rejecting, loudly and often, the notion that Australia faces an existential threat from refugees arriving by boat. They could follow up by getting things done instead of vacillating over climate change.
My response to anything Democrat Party said about any other party is:
“Oh you poor thing. Its always someone else problems, eh? And you’re always somehow dragged into it – since 1932, huh?
I really feel sorry for you. I mean, only recently, your leader moan and groan about how you were forced to join with two corrupted parties just to keep Thaksin at bay. Its a wonder you did not starve watching those two greedy blocs took all the bribes that could have been yours, huh? I know, I know, that’s why poor poor Abhisit’s so skinny. It must be so hard not to be tempted, all those monies, and all these shootings, must really have a negative impact on one’s appetite. And of course, after getting heroic and going around ‘whistle-blowing’ on all your former allies about corruption, as well as dealing with the ‘violent red shirts’ throwing eggs – oh you poor thing! And now with election coming up, one can’t just go back into hiding, huh? But hey, its been 80 years – perhaps its time for you to retire? No point working for a country that clearly can’t appreciate your higher academic qualifications, class, and always complaining about your lack of a ‘common touch’, eh?”
(Disclosure: Have always advocated voting for any other party except Democrat Party in every single election that I have voted in. I have always maintained that the Democrat Party made the best working opposition [esp before they got distracted by Thaksin] because they knew all the dirty tricks where to dig out corruption and thus best serve Thailand by being the opposition and keeping the government as clean as can be under tough circumstances.)
More power to King Chulalongkorn. No wonder his reign is treasured forever by Thais. Thailand needs more kings like him, especially at this juncture of history.
The change in the vote counting procedure, which will now take place at individual voting units, also causes some worry among the police that the lives of hua khanaen will be at greater risks.
What is the rationale behind this change? Is one police officer at a voting unit sufficient to ensure transparency? What of the concerns about Bhum Jai Thai bosses at the Ministry of the Interior rushing through the selection of district chiefs?
As to the comments by Ralph Kramden (#2) about Suthep, “By their words shall ye know them.” Those who jump to conclusions in interpreting events sometimes base their comments on experience of what they themselves have thought of doing or have already done.
Do you have specific information about attacks on PT supporter/canvassers/candidates?
So far, I was aware of 3: one in Samut Prakan last month, one in Chiang Rai on 2nd June, one in Chiang Mai on 13 June
If you know of additional incidents, please email me (report[at]thaielectionwatch.net) or submit a report at http://www.thaielectionwatch.net
Suthep even claimed that the first attack – on a Puea Thai candidate – was the work of the candidate’s own side.
Ralph if you are referring to the Samut Prakarn shooting then it’s probably not a good example to use against Suthep, although own side can have many meanings in Thai politics.
When PT MP (current candidate) got shot trough his back, the dem said he stage his own stunt to gain vote, but when the same happened to them and the alliance, its politic. No wonder people despite this political party.
I have a paper copy of the breakdown of all electoral districts for this election that I obtained from the ECT. If anyone is in need of specific information, please email me individually at thaiaim (at) gmail.com
In fact, the Lopburi hua kanaen’s murder has been made into a Democrat Party campaign issue. Suthep has blamed Puea Thai outright and says this is evidence of how violent the red shirts/Phue Thai are. It is interesting that the murder and attempted murder of Phue Thai canvassers are fobbed off as “not political” or the work of disgruntled business competitors or mia noi. The bias is remarkable.
Suthep even claimed that the first attack – on a Puea Thai candidate – was the work of the candidate’s own side. I wonder if Suthep is prepared to accept a similar claim on Lopburi? Doubt it.
From his own secure position on the side of the big battallions, LesAbbey has started to accuse people who disagree with him of cowardice.
I just look at the list of those killed last year and wonder why its make up is as it is. Maybe you can explain the actions of the UDD leadership on the last day and explain them without being an apologist.
Plan B, I hate to burst your bubble, but there has been plenty of foreign intervention in Burma. But contrary to your claims, it has all been in support of Than Shwe. You think all that Chinese money, Singaporean money, Indian money, Thai money, Western resource extraction companies money, etc is going to the KIO? It is precisely the looting of the Kachin State by the regime and their foreign supporters that is provoking the renewal of fighting, along with the continued failure of the regime to consider any negotiations with the opposition, ethnic or otherwise.
….. plus a long lecture on the evils of voting for candidate no. 1 (and what happens if she wins and her brother returns home and buys the entire block of Rajprasong)
I believe Rajprasong vendors (including one guy named Srivikorn) will be happy to welcome the Democrats to rally in the area EVERY DAY because they are the same ammat group anyway. Under such circumstances, any visitor (both Thai and foreign) will be offered welcome drinks and certainly party brochure to vote for no. 10
Dear Gen Sondhi is now confused about politics just as he was confused about his military role a few years ago. Those who are clamoring about bringing Thaksin to justice should bring Sondhi to account, for his crime is far more serious. Whoever casts a vote for Sondhi should have his/her head examined.
Thailand needs reminding that Rachaprasong district was recently devastated by Red Shirts violence and arson inspired by phone-ins from Dubai from a spiteful fugitive Thaksin.
Either that or they need to be reminded that almost a hundred life (or more) have been kill in cold blood in the middle of city of angel. What do you mean by “Thailand” anyway, do you think by doing that somehow people that already hate the Dem and the establishment will somehow switch? come on, its not that easy right?
Certainly someone who got shot right in their own room will not conclude that the Red is the one who do all the bad deed .
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Thailand’s invisible hand
Next interesting article by Khun Pravit touching on a “Hot Issue”:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/06/19/national/Lese-majeste-law-in-eye-of-storm-30158164.html
Thailand’s invisible hand
So any reason why we having one now when there is a good chance that Phue Thai will win?
========
There is one thing one must know about the Thais – especially the good old elites Bangkokians, and that is they love face. In that way, they are very chinese – that’s right, most of them (us) that’s not amongst the Thai version of aristocrats are actually of chinese blood!
Face is so important to us. And you must understand, for the last few decades, we ARE the BIGGEST DEMOCRACY is southeast asia. We ARE the US’s greatest allies in the region. We are LEGIT. That is so very important. We must have an election so that the world can see we ARE legit, and we ARE still the biggest democracy in SEA.
How could we not win? The Democrat Party running for election in a Democratic country – the biggest in SEA. We are smart, educated, classy, loyal to the King, patriotic to the country. Of course we must hold elections, not to prove ourselves, you know. We hold elections because democracies hold elections (whatever that mean) and of course the democrat party will win in any democratic election. What other party can uphold democratic values as well as democrat party?
(The above paragraph is not mine but a paraphrase of a friend, Masters graduate Cambridge, hardcore democrat voter.)
Australians, cattles, refugees and Four Corners
Greg,
I think the issue of animal vs human rights in this context is a bit of a non sequitur. It doesn’t follow from simultaneously supporting a ban of live cattle trade *and* the rejection of refugees that you prioritise animal over human rights. Similarly, it doesn’t follow from prioritising human over animal rights that you can’t be outraged at the treatment of animals and yet support (lets call it) the Howard doctrine on refugees.
You asked through email,
“What I really want to know is why the government is holding on to the Malaysia solution in the face of intense opposition (from ALP, Greens, A.I., U.N special rapportuer, etc) but caved in so easily to the demands from animal rights supporters.”
This is really a matter of politics. It was easy to put in place an instant ban on the live animal trade and then find a more nuanced response later because there’s no real electoral pressure against doing that. I don’t think it was a matter of caving to pressure, there was never any hold out against a ban that was eventually beaten down, it was a matter of being appalled at a revelation (to them at least, no revelation to me) and reacting to it.
As for the deal with Malaysia, Labor is essentially clumsy at politics. The Labor apparatchiks and all their focus groups tell its leaders that implementing humane refugee policies is bad politics. The reason its perceived as bad politics is basically because the Liberals have managed to frame it as tough vs weak responses to ‘que jumpers’ and ‘illegal immigrants’, and effective vs ineffective at ‘stopping the boats’. Labor has positioned itself politically against the Howard doctrine, but hasn’t managed to come up with an effective method of disarming the political alarmism over ‘boat-people arrivals’. They announced a deal with Malaysia because they felt pressure to announce *something* that wasn’t Nauru when Tony Abbot started hyperventilating over the number of new arrivals. But if UNHCR don’t support it, it wont get through parliament since half the Labor party (Gillard’s faction) declared they wont support it otherwise. So I think they will drop the Malaysian deal in the end, but they need a replacement policy before they do that so they don’t look like a government without a policy at all.
The problem is they don’t have too many options for ‘outsourcing’ the solution. 142 countries out of 192 countries worldwide have ratified both the 1951 Convention, and the 1967 Protocol relating to refugees, but amongst ASEAN countries, only Cambodia and the Philippines have.
[http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b73b0d63.pdf]
So of the 50 countries that haven’t ratified both, 8 are ASEAN countries. Eventually, I think they are going to have to make this a matter for some intense regional diplomacy. In the meantime, they will have to either come up with a solution that doesn’t rely on sending unauthorised arrivals to a third country, or suffer some serious political defeats at the next election. Sadly, my money is on the latter.
I don’t have much hope for the current Liberal Party, but if Labor decided to follow conviction instead of focus groups, I’d be much less depressed about the state of this country (and they’d probably turn around their pathetic poll numbers). They could start by rejecting, loudly and often, the notion that Australia faces an existential threat from refugees arriving by boat. They could follow up by getting things done instead of vacillating over climate change.
Thailand’s ballots and bullets
My response to anything Democrat Party said about any other party is:
“Oh you poor thing. Its always someone else problems, eh? And you’re always somehow dragged into it – since 1932, huh?
I really feel sorry for you. I mean, only recently, your leader moan and groan about how you were forced to join with two corrupted parties just to keep Thaksin at bay. Its a wonder you did not starve watching those two greedy blocs took all the bribes that could have been yours, huh? I know, I know, that’s why poor poor Abhisit’s so skinny. It must be so hard not to be tempted, all those monies, and all these shootings, must really have a negative impact on one’s appetite. And of course, after getting heroic and going around ‘whistle-blowing’ on all your former allies about corruption, as well as dealing with the ‘violent red shirts’ throwing eggs – oh you poor thing! And now with election coming up, one can’t just go back into hiding, huh? But hey, its been 80 years – perhaps its time for you to retire? No point working for a country that clearly can’t appreciate your higher academic qualifications, class, and always complaining about your lack of a ‘common touch’, eh?”
(Disclosure: Have always advocated voting for any other party except Democrat Party in every single election that I have voted in. I have always maintained that the Democrat Party made the best working opposition [esp before they got distracted by Thaksin] because they knew all the dirty tricks where to dig out corruption and thus best serve Thailand by being the opposition and keeping the government as clean as can be under tough circumstances.)
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
More power to King Chulalongkorn. No wonder his reign is treasured forever by Thais. Thailand needs more kings like him, especially at this juncture of history.
Thailand’s ballots and bullets
http://www.zenjournalist.com/bio/
I didn’t know where else to post this. These are the wikileaks reports about Thailand that Andrew Marshall resigned from Reuters to publish.
Thailand’s ballots and bullets
The change in the vote counting procedure, which will now take place at individual voting units, also causes some worry among the police that the lives of hua khanaen will be at greater risks.
What is the rationale behind this change? Is one police officer at a voting unit sufficient to ensure transparency? What of the concerns about Bhum Jai Thai bosses at the Ministry of the Interior rushing through the selection of district chiefs?
As to the comments by Ralph Kramden (#2) about Suthep, “By their words shall ye know them.” Those who jump to conclusions in interpreting events sometimes base their comments on experience of what they themselves have thought of doing or have already done.
Thailand’s ballots and bullets
@Ralph Kramden #2
Do you have specific information about attacks on PT supporter/canvassers/candidates?
So far, I was aware of 3: one in Samut Prakan last month, one in Chiang Rai on 2nd June, one in Chiang Mai on 13 June
If you know of additional incidents, please email me (report[at]thaielectionwatch.net) or submit a report at http://www.thaielectionwatch.net
Thanks
Thailand’s ballots and bullets
Ralph Kramden – 2
Suthep even claimed that the first attack – on a Puea Thai candidate – was the work of the candidate’s own side.
Ralph if you are referring to the Samut Prakarn shooting then it’s probably not a good example to use against Suthep, although own side can have many meanings in Thai politics.
Thailand’s ballots and bullets
When PT MP (current candidate) got shot trough his back, the dem said he stage his own stunt to gain vote, but when the same happened to them and the alliance, its politic. No wonder people despite this political party.
Thailand’s ballots and bullets
I have a paper copy of the breakdown of all electoral districts for this election that I obtained from the ECT. If anyone is in need of specific information, please email me individually at thaiaim (at) gmail.com
Thailand’s ballots and bullets
In fact, the Lopburi hua kanaen’s murder has been made into a Democrat Party campaign issue. Suthep has blamed Puea Thai outright and says this is evidence of how violent the red shirts/Phue Thai are. It is interesting that the murder and attempted murder of Phue Thai canvassers are fobbed off as “not political” or the work of disgruntled business competitors or mia noi. The bias is remarkable.
Suthep even claimed that the first attack – on a Puea Thai candidate – was the work of the candidate’s own side. I wonder if Suthep is prepared to accept a similar claim on Lopburi? Doubt it.
Thailand’s invisible hand
R. N. England – 32
From his own secure position on the side of the big battallions, LesAbbey has started to accuse people who disagree with him of cowardice.
I just look at the list of those killed last year and wonder why its make up is as it is. Maybe you can explain the actions of the UDD leadership on the last day and explain them without being an apologist.
War in Kachin State
Plan B, I hate to burst your bubble, but there has been plenty of foreign intervention in Burma. But contrary to your claims, it has all been in support of Than Shwe. You think all that Chinese money, Singaporean money, Indian money, Thai money, Western resource extraction companies money, etc is going to the KIO? It is precisely the looting of the Kachin State by the regime and their foreign supporters that is provoking the renewal of fighting, along with the continued failure of the regime to consider any negotiations with the opposition, ethnic or otherwise.
Thailand’s invisible hand
….. plus a long lecture on the evils of voting for candidate no. 1 (and what happens if she wins and her brother returns home and buys the entire block of Rajprasong)
Thailand’s invisible hand
I believe Rajprasong vendors (including one guy named Srivikorn) will be happy to welcome the Democrats to rally in the area EVERY DAY because they are the same ammat group anyway. Under such circumstances, any visitor (both Thai and foreign) will be offered welcome drinks and certainly party brochure to vote for no. 10
Thailand’s invisible hand
From his own secure position on the side of the big battallions, LesAbbey has started to accuse people who disagree with him of cowardice.
Small is beautiful?
Dear Gen Sondhi is now confused about politics just as he was confused about his military role a few years ago. Those who are clamoring about bringing Thaksin to justice should bring Sondhi to account, for his crime is far more serious. Whoever casts a vote for Sondhi should have his/her head examined.
Thailand’s invisible hand
Vichai N – 25
Thailand needs reminding that Rachaprasong district was recently devastated by Red Shirts violence and arson inspired by phone-ins from Dubai from a spiteful fugitive Thaksin.
Either that or they need to be reminded that almost a hundred life (or more) have been kill in cold blood in the middle of city of angel. What do you mean by “Thailand” anyway, do you think by doing that somehow people that already hate the Dem and the establishment will somehow switch? come on, its not that easy right?
Certainly someone who got shot right in their own room will not conclude that the Red is the one who do all the bad deed .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRi19_IYYE0&feature=player_embedded
Prayuth’s threat
Gen Prayuth seems to mean well. He should go one step further to help the Democrats set up a government in one of the miltary barracks.