My argument stands and my story . . . including Les Abbey’s (#95) “suspicion that in the Thaksin PR machine it was decided that 2010, unlike 2009, needed real bodies” is credible, considering that particular utube clip when the Red Shirts would even go to the extent of fabricating ‘fake dead bodies’ to raise the body count! “
Would “that particular utube clip when the Red Shirts would even go to the extent of fabricating ‘fake dead bodies’” be the one so beloved of StanG at one time – then proved to be surviving (probably uninjured) civilians crawling away from the other bleeding civilians (probably already dead) when the shooting finally subsided enough for them to risk moving? Even the indefatigable StanG eventually stopped making that “fake bodies” claim – but it still seems to be a firm favourite with Vichai_N.
“The Thaksin/Gen. Khattiya plan for the ‘urban civil war’ required lots of dead Red Shirts…..”. The problem with labeling something a “plan” rather than a “suspicion” is that it’s then incumbent on the label-applier to demonstrate that it was a plan – which Vichai_N (despite numerous opportunities to try) never does. I suggest he takes pause to learn from a Master; LesAbbey is smart enough to claim very little and uses oblique questions, hints and innuendo to plant suggestions. OTOH, Vichai_N seems to be perpetually stuck back in the rote repetition routines of Message-selling 101.
Hay.
Maybe Gen. Khattiya was a double agent pretending to be on the Red Shirt side but secretly working for the army. the Red Shirts realized what was going on and had him bumped off.
As Ralph Kramden points out @97 the MiB were either very bad shots or they were not aiming at the military at all. Very few on the military side were Killed.
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
What we need, and what the government does not need is a proper independent inquiry.
Ha Ha Martino… I hope you are not serious… re-colonise Malaysia?
What about the 20% growth in GDP? Please …. I believe most NM readers are more intelligent and realistic than you want to insinuate!
I think racism in Malaysia has peaked beyond pointof no return. The best thing that the Malaysian indians can do is migratae to some other country and start a new life. The Malay regime is aiming to be the next Afghanistan and Pakistan. Please leave malaysia before its too late.
Here are some more pictures of posters I took yesterday in Ubon and Sisaket. Democrats have put up probably twice as many campaign posters as PT between Ubon and Khu Khan but most have been destroyed.
Yes, Thaksin is clearly the most important person in Puea Thai, but this posting overstates, I think, the ultimate importance of others within the Party and more broadly within the Red Shirt movement.
A proper education. Good. Hopefully you’ll have the English back in your institutions soon too. If so, GDP growth p.a would hit 20 percent easily. Plus, the corruption and racial tension/squabbling would fade off as you’d all have a common enemy. Bite the bullet like Sierra Leone sooner than later and it won’t sting so badly.
It is more than 50 years since the British left Sierra Leone and the country embraced independence, while the whole of the continent of Africa freed itself from the shackles of colonial domination. But now Sierra Leone wants its former colonisers to return with more help.
“They are our colonial masters. We are almost infused into each other now. It’s a family tie,” Suleiman told me.
It is both surprising and counter-intuitive to hear this enthusiasm for foreign interference. Valnora Jones says that to some extent the British already run the country. But British political influence in Sierra Leone is far greater now than it has been since the end of the Empire.
Seriously, that is just “real estate” play… nothing to do with brain drain / reversal or any variation of that.
With the Govt supporting blatantly racial papers like “Utusan Melayu” the brain drain phenomena is hardly going to slow down. The political and racial discrimination landscape is becoming more and more untenable day by day.
One of the objectives for the conference is to share our thought and listen to other people’s voice. Khun Tarrin, you may experience some Thais who say “Farang don’t understand this and that because you are Farang.” I agree I have seen some Thais behave that way in my life.
I, however, have seen a lot of Thais who love to listen and respect other people. In fact, I’ve seen the latter much more than the former and I believe that the conference will be a place for people who believe in the power of knowledge sharing and dissemination of empirical evidences and facts, not emotional and prejudices.
There are quite a number of anthropologists at Thammasat University who studied sub-culture in different parts of Thailand. I am sure a number of them have been conducting ethnography study to investigate social, political and even economic and linguistic sides of sex workers, motor-cycle taxi, cleaners, tuk-tuk drivers etc.
At the previous Thai studies conference in 2007 at Thammasat, there were some studies focusing on pop-culture and the gender, Thai in mainstream pop-culture, Thai school and education leadership and SMEs from the North. Personally, I found various angles of Thai studies from Thai and no-Thai academics are fascinating and can be thought-provoking.
Here is what you exactly wrote Spooner (#96, 4th and 5th paragraphs):
“In my view HRW, and Brad Adams in particular, clearly hate Thaksin. Which is fine but makes them far far less than neutral.
Even hating Thaksin and the Red Shirts is ok with me – just don’t then tell me that this makes someone “neutral” when it is quite clearly a partisan position to take.”
Now what am to make of Spooner’s HRW ‘hating Thaksin and the Red Shirts’ but take his word for it.
My argument stands and my story . . . including Les Abbey’s (#95) “suspicion that in the Thaksin PR machine it was decided that 2010, unlike 2009, needed real bodies” is credible, considering that particular utube clip when the Red Shirts would even go to the extent of fabricating ‘fake dead bodies’ to raise the body count! The Thaksin/Gen. Khattiya plan for the ‘urban civil war’ required lots of dead Red Shirts Messrs. Spooner and SteveCM!
But I agree with Spooner that “the army sniper killings of the nurse and other unarmed protesters at the temple” particularly deserve independent scrutiny to find out who gave the orders and who carried out the senseless killings.
Well Nick, you sound extremely observant and astute to me. And lest it need saying, don’t fall into the trap of thinking that worthwhile comment necessarily rests with academics! I find your reflections and comments to be very interesting, and if you were to present at a conference it is your nuanced and experienced take on the conflict that I would be interested in hearing rather than some of the arrogant and one sided pomposity I do often hear from academics who are overly confident in their status as ‘experts’.
I expect that the convenor didn’t really mean that the entire Thai political situation was ‘a yawner’, just the grandstanding?
#1 and #2 , if there weren’t any events involving the reds, you’d think they’re gone. With all the media avoiding them, and the rules in place against them. One have to take what one can get.
This one might have been Boonanong’s brainchild. He suggested it on twitter, and always looking for creative ways of displaying ‘non-violence’ gatherings for the reds.
LesAbbey #95, you said that Thaksin PR machine needed real bodies. 1992, there were real bodies. Wait, we didn’t have any. And most of the families had to contend with a body-less grave. The point is Thai military always has a nasty habit of destroying/disposing bodies. One might suspect to further your career, you might have to practice doing so. Gen.Surayuth, a privy council member & former PM, had such a history. Gen.Chamlong of the PAD’s hands were very much bloodied.
To say that there were no bodies, when military grade weapons are used on crowd, makes you look like you haven’t done your history homework on Thailand.
Fact is, If guns and the army is involved. THERE WILL BE BODIES. Others are just wishful thinking.
Thai Rak Thai would have done what you wished for, but it was disbanded before it had made the step towards that. Right now, it’s going back to its roots. Thaksin, after all is the man behind that success. It is no difference than Apple begging Jobs to come back. And look what a success it had been. You just can’t argue with the results. Apple won’t be in such a strong position these days without their man.
And if Puea Thai can bring Thaksin back? Who am I to say that it won’t be another stunning success? There’ll be obstacles, opponents to his new reign. But to say that it won’t be a step forward to what we have right now is just your bias talking. Since the coup, everything were sliding back toward Military rule/Absolute monarchy. It’s not ideal, but until we can stop trying to find virtuous men to play politics. Solidifying the system, and getting the public’s faith in it back should be the no.1 priority.
I can live with Thaksin, as long as results are made, and justice is injected back into the country. Hoping for more right now is counting eggs before you even brought the hen.
How come you never seem able to actually read anything properly?
I “specifically” said “Brad Adams hates Thaksin.” You may notice there is a full-stop after the word “Thaksin” – there is no “and the Red Shirts.” You added “and the Red Shirts” yourself.
You also then imply that I say that the entire HRW organisation “hate Thaksin.” Why do you see the need to just make stuff up? There is nothing I say that comes remotely close to that.
Dude, you can’t even sustain a cogent argument over two blog comments based on the words published right in front of your eyes.
As for the incompetence argument – obscene rubbish. How many mistakes does the Thai Army get to make? 1973, 1976, 1992, 2004, 2010? Can repeated massacres always be put down to incompetence?
Furthermore, the use of army snipers categorically undoes the “incompetence” argument.
Calculated and murderous would be two better descriptions.
“The problem I have is my suspicion that in the Thaksin PR machine it was decided that 2010, unlike 2009, needed real bodies. Once you begin to run with that suspicion an awful lot of what happened afterwards begins to make sense.”
And, man oh man, how you run with it….. so fast and so hard that you leave all other possibilities and unanswered questions way back in the distance – pretty much out of (your) sight.
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Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
c103
My argument stands and my story . . . including Les Abbey’s (#95) “suspicion that in the Thaksin PR machine it was decided that 2010, unlike 2009, needed real bodies” is credible, considering that particular utube clip when the Red Shirts would even go to the extent of fabricating ‘fake dead bodies’ to raise the body count! “
Would “that particular utube clip when the Red Shirts would even go to the extent of fabricating ‘fake dead bodies’” be the one so beloved of StanG at one time – then proved to be surviving (probably uninjured) civilians crawling away from the other bleeding civilians (probably already dead) when the shooting finally subsided enough for them to risk moving? Even the indefatigable StanG eventually stopped making that “fake bodies” claim – but it still seems to be a firm favourite with Vichai_N.
“The Thaksin/Gen. Khattiya plan for the ‘urban civil war’ required lots of dead Red Shirts…..”. The problem with labeling something a “plan” rather than a “suspicion” is that it’s then incumbent on the label-applier to demonstrate that it was a plan – which Vichai_N (despite numerous opportunities to try) never does. I suggest he takes pause to learn from a Master; LesAbbey is smart enough to claim very little and uses oblique questions, hints and innuendo to plant suggestions. OTOH, Vichai_N seems to be perpetually stuck back in the rote repetition routines of Message-selling 101.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Hay.
Maybe Gen. Khattiya was a double agent pretending to be on the Red Shirt side but secretly working for the army. the Red Shirts realized what was going on and had him bumped off.
As Ralph Kramden points out @97 the MiB were either very bad shots or they were not aiming at the military at all. Very few on the military side were Killed.
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
What we need, and what the government does not need is a proper independent inquiry.
Reversing brain drain
Ha Ha Martino… I hope you are not serious… re-colonise Malaysia?
What about the 20% growth in GDP? Please …. I believe most NM readers are more intelligent and realistic than you want to insinuate!
Malaysian Indians: A sad story
I think racism in Malaysia has peaked beyond pointof no return. The best thing that the Malaysian indians can do is migratae to some other country and start a new life. The Malay regime is aiming to be the next Afghanistan and Pakistan. Please leave malaysia before its too late.
Thaksin is back!
Here are some more pictures of posters I took yesterday in Ubon and Sisaket. Democrats have put up probably twice as many campaign posters as PT between Ubon and Khu Khan but most have been destroyed.
http://www.thethaireport.com/thethaireport/Campaign_Posters.html
2 per cent don’t love monarchy
suggest the question really is:
who exploits “love of the King” to keep their wealth and power (maintain their class privileges)?
Thaksin is back!
Yes, Thaksin is clearly the most important person in Puea Thai, but this posting overstates, I think, the ultimate importance of others within the Party and more broadly within the Red Shirt movement.
Reversing brain drain
A proper education. Good. Hopefully you’ll have the English back in your institutions soon too. If so, GDP growth p.a would hit 20 percent easily. Plus, the corruption and racial tension/squabbling would fade off as you’d all have a common enemy. Bite the bullet like Sierra Leone sooner than later and it won’t sting so badly.
It is more than 50 years since the British left Sierra Leone and the country embraced independence, while the whole of the continent of Africa freed itself from the shackles of colonial domination. But now Sierra Leone wants its former colonisers to return with more help.
“They are our colonial masters. We are almost infused into each other now. It’s a family tie,” Suleiman told me.
It is both surprising and counter-intuitive to hear this enthusiasm for foreign interference. Valnora Jones says that to some extent the British already run the country. But British political influence in Sierra Leone is far greater now than it has been since the end of the Empire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8754659.stm
Jolly good!
Reversing brain drain
Seriously, that is just “real estate” play… nothing to do with brain drain / reversal or any variation of that.
With the Govt supporting blatantly racial papers like “Utusan Melayu” the brain drain phenomena is hardly going to slow down. The political and racial discrimination landscape is becoming more and more untenable day by day.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Tarrin,
One of the objectives for the conference is to share our thought and listen to other people’s voice. Khun Tarrin, you may experience some Thais who say “Farang don’t understand this and that because you are Farang.” I agree I have seen some Thais behave that way in my life.
I, however, have seen a lot of Thais who love to listen and respect other people. In fact, I’ve seen the latter much more than the former and I believe that the conference will be a place for people who believe in the power of knowledge sharing and dissemination of empirical evidences and facts, not emotional and prejudices.
See you at the conference krub.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
There are quite a number of anthropologists at Thammasat University who studied sub-culture in different parts of Thailand. I am sure a number of them have been conducting ethnography study to investigate social, political and even economic and linguistic sides of sex workers, motor-cycle taxi, cleaners, tuk-tuk drivers etc.
At the previous Thai studies conference in 2007 at Thammasat, there were some studies focusing on pop-culture and the gender, Thai in mainstream pop-culture, Thai school and education leadership and SMEs from the North. Personally, I found various angles of Thai studies from Thai and no-Thai academics are fascinating and can be thought-provoking.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Here is what you exactly wrote Spooner (#96, 4th and 5th paragraphs):
“In my view HRW, and Brad Adams in particular, clearly hate Thaksin. Which is fine but makes them far far less than neutral.
Even hating Thaksin and the Red Shirts is ok with me – just don’t then tell me that this makes someone “neutral” when it is quite clearly a partisan position to take.”
Now what am to make of Spooner’s HRW ‘hating Thaksin and the Red Shirts’ but take his word for it.
My argument stands and my story . . . including Les Abbey’s (#95) “suspicion that in the Thaksin PR machine it was decided that 2010, unlike 2009, needed real bodies” is credible, considering that particular utube clip when the Red Shirts would even go to the extent of fabricating ‘fake dead bodies’ to raise the body count! The Thaksin/Gen. Khattiya plan for the ‘urban civil war’ required lots of dead Red Shirts Messrs. Spooner and SteveCM!
But I agree with Spooner that “the army sniper killings of the nurse and other unarmed protesters at the temple” particularly deserve independent scrutiny to find out who gave the orders and who carried out the senseless killings.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Well Nick, you sound extremely observant and astute to me. And lest it need saying, don’t fall into the trap of thinking that worthwhile comment necessarily rests with academics! I find your reflections and comments to be very interesting, and if you were to present at a conference it is your nuanced and experienced take on the conflict that I would be interested in hearing rather than some of the arrogant and one sided pomposity I do often hear from academics who are overly confident in their status as ‘experts’.
I expect that the convenor didn’t really mean that the entire Thai political situation was ‘a yawner’, just the grandstanding?
Anti-lese majeste flash mob
In practical terms, it is also much easier for a crowd to rapidly spell “No 112” rather than “р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕нр╕▓ р╣Ср╣Ср╣Т” with their bodies.
Anti-lese majeste flash mob
#1 and #2 , if there weren’t any events involving the reds, you’d think they’re gone. With all the media avoiding them, and the rules in place against them. One have to take what one can get.
This one might have been Boonanong’s brainchild. He suggested it on twitter, and always looking for creative ways of displaying ‘non-violence’ gatherings for the reds.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
LesAbbey #95, you said that Thaksin PR machine needed real bodies. 1992, there were real bodies. Wait, we didn’t have any. And most of the families had to contend with a body-less grave. The point is Thai military always has a nasty habit of destroying/disposing bodies. One might suspect to further your career, you might have to practice doing so. Gen.Surayuth, a privy council member & former PM, had such a history. Gen.Chamlong of the PAD’s hands were very much bloodied.
To say that there were no bodies, when military grade weapons are used on crowd, makes you look like you haven’t done your history homework on Thailand.
Fact is, If guns and the army is involved. THERE WILL BE BODIES. Others are just wishful thinking.
Thaksin is back!
Thai Rak Thai would have done what you wished for, but it was disbanded before it had made the step towards that. Right now, it’s going back to its roots. Thaksin, after all is the man behind that success. It is no difference than Apple begging Jobs to come back. And look what a success it had been. You just can’t argue with the results. Apple won’t be in such a strong position these days without their man.
And if Puea Thai can bring Thaksin back? Who am I to say that it won’t be another stunning success? There’ll be obstacles, opponents to his new reign. But to say that it won’t be a step forward to what we have right now is just your bias talking. Since the coup, everything were sliding back toward Military rule/Absolute monarchy. It’s not ideal, but until we can stop trying to find virtuous men to play politics. Solidifying the system, and getting the public’s faith in it back should be the no.1 priority.
I can live with Thaksin, as long as results are made, and justice is injected back into the country. Hoping for more right now is counting eggs before you even brought the hen.
Speculation on Thai election outcomes
Thai election is scheduled to take place on July 3, 2011.
Abhisit will have an official announcement tonight
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Vichai N.
How come you never seem able to actually read anything properly?
I “specifically” said “Brad Adams hates Thaksin.” You may notice there is a full-stop after the word “Thaksin” – there is no “and the Red Shirts.” You added “and the Red Shirts” yourself.
You also then imply that I say that the entire HRW organisation “hate Thaksin.” Why do you see the need to just make stuff up? There is nothing I say that comes remotely close to that.
Dude, you can’t even sustain a cogent argument over two blog comments based on the words published right in front of your eyes.
As for the incompetence argument – obscene rubbish. How many mistakes does the Thai Army get to make? 1973, 1976, 1992, 2004, 2010? Can repeated massacres always be put down to incompetence?
Furthermore, the use of army snipers categorically undoes the “incompetence” argument.
Calculated and murderous would be two better descriptions.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
c95
“The problem I have is my suspicion that in the Thaksin PR machine it was decided that 2010, unlike 2009, needed real bodies. Once you begin to run with that suspicion an awful lot of what happened afterwards begins to make sense.”
And, man oh man, how you run with it….. so fast and so hard that you leave all other possibilities and unanswered questions way back in the distance – pretty much out of (your) sight.