[…] unrest. The violence on April 10 did not end the red shirt campaign – the protesters abandoned the battle-scarred Rachadamnoen area but consolidated their hold on the Ratchaprasong intersection, an area of five star hotels and […]
Ralph, fortunately Andrew Spooner did jump in to reinforce the point I was making.
Andrew Spooner – 73
First let’s get rid of the straw man. I never got the feeling from the HRW report that it suggested there could be any justification for shooting unarmed civilians. It very much points the finger at the army on both April 10th. and May 19th. for either having bad orders from the government, or out of control or poorly trained soldiers.
So after saying there was plenty to like in the report you attack HRW as below.
…but the situation requires proper evidence from a body like HRW, not flimsy theories dressed up as substantive statements.
Feigning balance just to play to the crowd doesn’t bring anyone closer to the “truth”.
So can we take it that you think HRW is making things up, i.e. telling lies, and doing this so it can play to what you call the crowd? Who is this crowd? Doesn’t look like it includes the Thai government by Ralph’s report of Suthep’s reaction.
I guess if we kept, “Plenty to like in the HRW report – and plenty which is actually in full agreement with Amsterdam’s claims” and threw away the rest you would like it a little better. Funny thing is Suthep is probably saying something very similar except he would keep the parts you throw away and throw away the parts you keep;-)
(andrewspooner#73) While you raise some worthwhile questions about the Men in Black, you also offer up some very disingenuous comments.
I cannot say off the top of my head whether the Army arrested some alleged MiB, but DSI/police certainly did, afterwards, and in several cases made quite a display of it. Anyone who follows Thai news is aware of this. And the Red Shirts leaders were always rather evasive about their relationship with the MiB, but certainly did not disavow them, or, to the best of my recollection, their actions.
So who do you think was firing those M-79s – including at civilian targets on Silom Road – and why didn’t the Red Shirt leaders distance themselves more from the shooters at the time? Why, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, do you think it is not a duck?
In Brad Adams brief comments here below on “crackdown”at the House of Lords,Adams says “the military backed by the Palace has acted with inpunity over many decades” So I wonder why if this is the case why Amnesy’s Benjamin Zawacki still praises of the King in his reports and still allows them to be shown on AI websites.Also interesting is why Brad Adams hasn’t reflected this comment in official HRW statements.Could not Amnesty and HRW,at least communicate with each other and sing from the same hymn sheet,and have the honesty to retract statements that are either unknowlingly false or that might have been given in good faith,but later found to be untrue(i.e.Redshirts burned Central World,but NEW evidence suggests otherwise)On record claims that the King backed the “war on drugs”,and comments like “the idea came from this man” make it essential that the public and worldwide goverments be told the truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMZT4oxwy7U&feature=player_embedded#at=2797
“The Court therefore felt bound to pronounce in favour of the frontier indicated on the Annex I map in the disputed area….”
That part has always puzzled me in terms of the judgement and what followed. Aren’t they explicitly recognising the frontier as indicated on the map – i.e. all of that frontier on that map and not just the bit which is a stone’s throw from the temple?
Still, I acknowledge that the law moves in mysterious ways its blunders to perform…..
“…..one wonders whether judges better versed in geography would have pronounced in favour of anything indicated on it.”
Even if each of the judges was a geography dunce, there was certainly no shortage of cartographic, surveying and all manner of other expert testimony provided to educate them.
Of course I did Ralph and so far I suspect their silence proves what an embarrassment the HRW report is to them. It’s not a million miles away from Andrew Marshall’s reporting, but the divergence from Robert Amsterdam’s report shows the difference between independent and paid for.
Prior to the report’s release both Andrew Spooner and Martino were querying HRW’s approach to the LM laws, which of course is what they dislike about AI. It will be interesting to see their reaction to the report.
For myself I’m quite pleased as I didn’t know the report was coming and thought it would be a long time before we had anything like an independent history of last year’s troubles, although I am still looking forward to Nick’s volume 3.
What pleases me most of all is I don’t think I have written anything over the last year that diverges that much from what’s in the report, or anything that’s particularly out of sync with the Appendix : Timeline of Thai Political History through the Election of Thaksin Shinawatra. Although I didn’t really know when talking about the Class Five generals that The junta controls of the Defense Ministry and resumes its scandalous arms procurement, which Chatichai had suspended. They also begin to venture into Thailand’s booming satellite and telecommunication sector, awarding large-scale contracts to business allies, including Thaksin Shinawatra.
If the Men in Black were the justification for the Thai government to use force why did the Thai Army end up shooting nurses, kids and random people carrying flags?
Why didn’t the Thai Army kill, capture or otherwise arrest one single “MiB”?
And if the connections between the MiB and the Red Shirts were so concrete why has no substantive evidence ever been produced? Why would the Thai government hold that back?
Plenty to like in the HRW report – and plenty which is actually in full agreement with Amsterdam’s claims – but the situation requires proper evidence from a body like HRW, not flimsy theories dressed up as substantive statements.
Feigning balance just to play to the crowd doesn’t bring anyone closer to the “truth”.
Bkk Lawyer (3), your assertion that “the court expressly declined to reach a decision on the location of the border”
is not consistent with the following part of the Judgement’s summary:
“The Court therefore felt bound to pronounce in favour of the frontier indicated on the Annex I map in the disputed area and it became unnecessary to consider whether the line as mapped did in fact correspond to the true watershed line.”
The map is indeed highly inaccurate, and one wonders whether judges better versed in geography would have pronounced in favour of anything indicated on it. What the Court could now do by way of explanation of the meaning and scope of its judgement, is decide which of the marks on the map correspond to different parts of the temple, and where on the ground, relative to one of those parts of the temple, the indicated border lies (in the disputed area).
I don’t understand what is to be gained from not attending the Melbourne conference. Surely it would be better for you to attend and deliver a paper on all the threads that you’ve been posting here and on Prachatai over past year or so. Don’t assume that all (or many) in the audience will be overly familiar with the details of recent Thai history or wont be influenced by quality dissenting voices – your research could be enlightening for a whole range of attendees. And if it is an attempt by Thai powers to whitewash recent events, then even more important to have critical, credible alternatives presenting…
Oh yes Abhisit’s government and the military were condemned by HRW:
”In plain view government forces shot protesters and armed militants shot soldiers, but no one has been held responsible,” said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch.
But anyone reading HRW report carefully and with an open mind would conclude that the Red Shirts leaders, along with their very violent Black Shirts and General Khattiya led Red guards, were deliberately baiting and provoking the Abhisit government/military (through their assault rifles, M79 grenade launchers vicious everywhich way attacks and fiery/inflammatory rhetorics) expecting a bloody carnage of their own Red followers from a military crackdown.
Because HRW had accurately painted the ugliness of the Red Shirts movement and its leaders in their May 3, 2011 report, that report had not been getting the ‘publicity’, as Les noted, at NM or AsianCorrespondent or Prachatai or any of the Red Shirts sympathetic blogsites.
p/s: I’d be very interested to know what the Australian, Scottish and British Andrews think about the recent HRW report.
Observer 6
Not to go too far off topic but the US was always quite happy with it’s forces smiting the heathen as long as it didn’t enter their living room over dinner.
The atrocities witnessed at My Lai and subsequent TV journalism changed that and the military learnt it’s lessons and put themin place.
The post 9/11 “War on Terror” bought terror to Iraq and Afghanistan but the depth of misery has been neutered and controlled. Atrocities are only trickling out of the militaries hermetically sealed body bag when some brave soul defies the system. We are then assured these ar e isolated events, though “precision bombing” and damage to civil infrastructure caused thousands of “collateral casualties” No body- filled ditches or screaming napalmed kids have been allowed this time.
Conversely thai media and society seem to crave these trophies, be it Songkran road kill, a jealous mans victim a “suspected” drug dealer or a movie actor in a hotel closet. But hey, each to his own. Thais appear to be more comfortable with the indignity of death, the great social leveller.
A body sprawled in a street indicates that persons lack of status or karmic fate. The good often do die young in Thailand and evil tends to accrue social status, respect, barami and inviolability.
This is the system.
If you work outside it, chances are you’ll wind up on the pavement. If you accept and follow you will prosper. What would you choose?
But Les, you said “I guess Human Rights Watch will join the ‘enemies list’ along with AI and The Nation…”. You clearly meant someone other than Suthep.
Here is a comment from an annonymous leading thai democracy activist for academics here to contemplate: QUOTE “…I truly believe that the embassy there is trying to justify the last year’s brutal killings – with the hope that it can convince a large number of academics there.
In addition to the reds, there must be a huge number of academics (in Australia) who are outspoken and interested in Thai politic. I hope those academics and other attendants will use their professional judgment freely.” ENDQUOTE
the value judgements for not attending the International Thai Studies Conf in Thailand (for thopse whop made that decision) should hold for the same thing here in Oz.
I`ve noticed that the military in the USA is also treated with much more respect than was apparently the case just a few decades ago. I guess that this sort of `pro-military culture` is certainly linked to a country`s ability to go to war, organize coups, etc.
Anyone here @ New Mandala ever raise this question.
Is Myanmar citizenry plight equal to the sum of West or whatever west is represented vs the government of Myanmar?
Let see:
1) When was Myanmar government ever “NUDGED”?
From one extreme of Laissez Fair to the other extreme R2P and anything in between with the like of AI,UN, ERI etc.
2) Ever a moment of useless careless vilification from day 1?
Goons, Uneducated, Tail wagging dog lucky Myanmar does not have lese majesté.
I am quite sure that should negate your west’s attempt at “ENGAGMENT” a fraud as well.
The west repeated denigrate this present atrocious government absolutely without regards for the citizenry plight degrade their overall will to success further.
This must be the ISSUE if one is to succeed in changing the present quagmire.
In doing ceaselessly unacceptably trivialized the plight of the citizenry,especially the most vulnerable ones.
Anyone here @ New Mandala ever raise this question.
Is Myanmar citizenry plight equal to the sum of West or whatever west is represent vs the government of Myanmar?
Suthep scorns Human Rights Watch, slams “Thai soldiers killed red shirts”, tells to take care of America first
Ralph, that’s the great thing about an independent report, everyone will hate it. It has nothing good to say about the Thai army for example and the Abhisit government is attacked for, amongst other things, its post May 2010 censorship and treatment of detainees. It doesn’t pull any punches on subjects like the temple killings.
But then comes the problem for some. Do we say ‘yes they’re right on that’, but then complain they got it wrong on armed elements linked to the protesters, shooting soldiers on April 10th., or the blame being laid at the UDD’s door for the Central World fire. If there are no complaints then where does leave Jataporn and his CW story, or Robert Amsterdam and his report. Do we call them liars?
Then of course HRW have given us a lovely potted history of recent times in Thailand, including the war on drugs and the insurgency in the south. The great man doesn’t come out of too well. Is he really worth all this loss of life?
It will be interesting to see if the HRW report gets anywhere near the publicity given to the Amsterdam one, even here on NM. At the moment for such an important historical record it’s getting very little.
Les, how about this as a first response, seen at Siam Voices:
Suthep scorns Human Rights Watch, slams “Thai soldiers killed red shirts”, tells to take care of America first
In an interview at Government House, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaungsuban has voiced disappointment after the international human rights organizations Human Rights Watch has reported that Thai soldiers have caused the death of civilians during the red shirt protests, where 91 people have died. He said that after he saw the news he felt sad because he thinks such an organization should be neutral and not be inclined to take sides […] before they say anything and damage the public image of Thailand, [thus they] should have checked their facts properly first. [Suthep laments] where that organization was during the government of Thaksin Shinawatra, when they killed 3,000 people [“War on Drugs”] but hasn’t heard a thing from them.
“That organization should better look into their own country first before, […] [like] John F. Kennedy’s assassination, nothing is still clear about that. Thus all sides are still working and searching for facts, such as the independent [Truth and Reconciliation] Commission of Mr. Kanit na Nakorn […] we should listen more to them rather than some foreigners. The commission, that the government has set up, has just worked for 10 months and continues to do so […]”
““р╕кр╕╕р╣Ар╕Чр╕Ю” р╕Йр╕╕р╕Щр╕ор╕┤р╕зр╣Бр╕бр╕Щр╣Др╕гр╕Чр╣М р╕зр╕нр╕Чр╕Кр╣М р╕Лр╕▒р╕Ф “р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Др╕Чр╕в” р╕Жр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕З р╕вр╣Йр╕нр╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╣Др╕Ыр╕Фр╕╣р╣Бр╕ер╕нр╣Ар╕бр╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Фр╕╡р╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щ“, Matichon, May 4, 2011 (translation and emphasis by me [Siam Voices])
RK: Suthep gets several facts wrong here, but let’s ignore that and his continuation of the anti-foreign discourse and just look at his continuing denial that ANY deaths were caused by the army. Doesn’t that just sound like a demented rant?
Old stooge? Speak for yourself, mate. Trouble with you is you can’t think out of the box, and you blame the West’s useless careless policy for the stalemate whereas you are more than happy to let the military regime get off scot free with just the SOS label. To me both violent and non-violent options are legitimate and must be considered.
Bear in mind the policy of ‘nudge’ is fashionable not just with Obama, David Cameron believes in it too especially with their Middle East buddies, and not just Israel, but they take exception to those who openly defy them.
The US administration, particularly the business lobby’s politicians, are bending over backwards to resume ties with Burma. The regime on its part as far as business is concerned will just bend over period. They never liked the Chinese anyway.
If only the regime gives an inch politically, say the amnesty will include political prisoners (of course they don’t exist, do they?). Can you imagine the American voters cheering on as their leaders just bend over?
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Mourning and defiance
[…] unrest. The violence on April 10 did not end the red shirt campaign – the protesters abandoned the battle-scarred Rachadamnoen area but consolidated their hold on the Ratchaprasong intersection, an area of five star hotels and […]
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Ralph Kramden
Ralph, fortunately Andrew Spooner did jump in to reinforce the point I was making.
Andrew Spooner – 73
First let’s get rid of the straw man. I never got the feeling from the HRW report that it suggested there could be any justification for shooting unarmed civilians. It very much points the finger at the army on both April 10th. and May 19th. for either having bad orders from the government, or out of control or poorly trained soldiers.
So after saying there was plenty to like in the report you attack HRW as below.
…but the situation requires proper evidence from a body like HRW, not flimsy theories dressed up as substantive statements.
Feigning balance just to play to the crowd doesn’t bring anyone closer to the “truth”.
So can we take it that you think HRW is making things up, i.e. telling lies, and doing this so it can play to what you call the crowd? Who is this crowd? Doesn’t look like it includes the Thai government by Ralph’s report of Suthep’s reaction.
I guess if we kept, “Plenty to like in the HRW report – and plenty which is actually in full agreement with Amsterdam’s claims” and threw away the rest you would like it a little better. Funny thing is Suthep is probably saying something very similar except he would keep the parts you throw away and throw away the parts you keep;-)
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
(andrewspooner#73) While you raise some worthwhile questions about the Men in Black, you also offer up some very disingenuous comments.
I cannot say off the top of my head whether the Army arrested some alleged MiB, but DSI/police certainly did, afterwards, and in several cases made quite a display of it. Anyone who follows Thai news is aware of this. And the Red Shirts leaders were always rather evasive about their relationship with the MiB, but certainly did not disavow them, or, to the best of my recollection, their actions.
So who do you think was firing those M-79s – including at civilian targets on Silom Road – and why didn’t the Red Shirt leaders distance themselves more from the shooters at the time? Why, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, do you think it is not a duck?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
In Brad Adams brief comments here below on “crackdown”at the House of Lords,Adams says “the military backed by the Palace has acted with inpunity over many decades” So I wonder why if this is the case why Amnesy’s Benjamin Zawacki still praises of the King in his reports and still allows them to be shown on AI websites.Also interesting is why Brad Adams hasn’t reflected this comment in official HRW statements.Could not Amnesty and HRW,at least communicate with each other and sing from the same hymn sheet,and have the honesty to retract statements that are either unknowlingly false or that might have been given in good faith,but later found to be untrue(i.e.Redshirts burned Central World,but NEW evidence suggests otherwise)On record claims that the King backed the “war on drugs”,and comments like “the idea came from this man” make it essential that the public and worldwide goverments be told the truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMZT4oxwy7U&feature=player_embedded#at=2797
ICJ press release on Cambodia
c4
“The Court therefore felt bound to pronounce in favour of the frontier indicated on the Annex I map in the disputed area….”
That part has always puzzled me in terms of the judgement and what followed. Aren’t they explicitly recognising the frontier as indicated on the map – i.e. all of that frontier on that map and not just the bit which is a stone’s throw from the temple?
Still, I acknowledge that the law moves in mysterious ways its blunders to perform…..
“…..one wonders whether judges better versed in geography would have pronounced in favour of anything indicated on it.”
Even if each of the judges was a geography dunce, there was certainly no shortage of cartographic, surveying and all manner of other expert testimony provided to educate them.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Ralph Kramden – 71
You clearly meant someone other than Suthep.
Of course I did Ralph and so far I suspect their silence proves what an embarrassment the HRW report is to them. It’s not a million miles away from Andrew Marshall’s reporting, but the divergence from Robert Amsterdam’s report shows the difference between independent and paid for.
Prior to the report’s release both Andrew Spooner and Martino were querying HRW’s approach to the LM laws, which of course is what they dislike about AI. It will be interesting to see their reaction to the report.
For myself I’m quite pleased as I didn’t know the report was coming and thought it would be a long time before we had anything like an independent history of last year’s troubles, although I am still looking forward to Nick’s volume 3.
What pleases me most of all is I don’t think I have written anything over the last year that diverges that much from what’s in the report, or anything that’s particularly out of sync with the Appendix : Timeline of Thai Political History through the Election of Thaksin Shinawatra. Although I didn’t really know when talking about the Class Five generals that The junta controls of the Defense Ministry and resumes its scandalous arms procurement, which Chatichai had suspended. They also begin to venture into Thailand’s booming satellite and telecommunication sector, awarding large-scale contracts to business allies, including Thaksin Shinawatra.
Thailand before the poll
As of today was a
New Senate speaker appointed by royal command
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/New-Senate-speaker-appointed-by-royal-command-30154666.html
that means it can be handled in the same way for a House Dissolution
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
If the Men in Black were the justification for the Thai government to use force why did the Thai Army end up shooting nurses, kids and random people carrying flags?
Why didn’t the Thai Army kill, capture or otherwise arrest one single “MiB”?
And if the connections between the MiB and the Red Shirts were so concrete why has no substantive evidence ever been produced? Why would the Thai government hold that back?
Plenty to like in the HRW report – and plenty which is actually in full agreement with Amsterdam’s claims – but the situation requires proper evidence from a body like HRW, not flimsy theories dressed up as substantive statements.
Feigning balance just to play to the crowd doesn’t bring anyone closer to the “truth”.
ICJ press release on Cambodia
Bkk Lawyer (3), your assertion that “the court expressly declined to reach a decision on the location of the border”
is not consistent with the following part of the Judgement’s summary:
“The Court therefore felt bound to pronounce in favour of the frontier indicated on the Annex I map in the disputed area and it became unnecessary to consider whether the line as mapped did in fact correspond to the true watershed line.”
The map is indeed highly inaccurate, and one wonders whether judges better versed in geography would have pronounced in favour of anything indicated on it. What the Court could now do by way of explanation of the meaning and scope of its judgement, is decide which of the marks on the map correspond to different parts of the temple, and where on the ground, relative to one of those parts of the temple, the indicated border lies (in the disputed area).
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Jim,
I don’t understand what is to be gained from not attending the Melbourne conference. Surely it would be better for you to attend and deliver a paper on all the threads that you’ve been posting here and on Prachatai over past year or so. Don’t assume that all (or many) in the audience will be overly familiar with the details of recent Thai history or wont be influenced by quality dissenting voices – your research could be enlightening for a whole range of attendees. And if it is an attempt by Thai powers to whitewash recent events, then even more important to have critical, credible alternatives presenting…
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
“It will be interesting to see if the HRW report gets anywhere near the publicity given to the Amsterdam one, even here on NM.” (Les #70)
For the regular readers/commentators who had been avoiding HRW May 3, 2011 report ‘Descent into Chaos’, see below:
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2011/05/03/descent-chaos
Oh yes Abhisit’s government and the military were condemned by HRW:
”In plain view government forces shot protesters and armed militants shot soldiers, but no one has been held responsible,” said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch.
But anyone reading HRW report carefully and with an open mind would conclude that the Red Shirts leaders, along with their very violent Black Shirts and General Khattiya led Red guards, were deliberately baiting and provoking the Abhisit government/military (through their assault rifles, M79 grenade launchers vicious everywhich way attacks and fiery/inflammatory rhetorics) expecting a bloody carnage of their own Red followers from a military crackdown.
Because HRW had accurately painted the ugliness of the Red Shirts movement and its leaders in their May 3, 2011 report, that report had not been getting the ‘publicity’, as Les noted, at NM or AsianCorrespondent or Prachatai or any of the Red Shirts sympathetic blogsites.
p/s: I’d be very interested to know what the Australian, Scottish and British Andrews think about the recent HRW report.
Thailand’s benevolent army
Observer 6
Not to go too far off topic but the US was always quite happy with it’s forces smiting the heathen as long as it didn’t enter their living room over dinner.
The atrocities witnessed at My Lai and subsequent TV journalism changed that and the military learnt it’s lessons and put themin place.
The post 9/11 “War on Terror” bought terror to Iraq and Afghanistan but the depth of misery has been neutered and controlled. Atrocities are only trickling out of the militaries hermetically sealed body bag when some brave soul defies the system. We are then assured these ar e isolated events, though “precision bombing” and damage to civil infrastructure caused thousands of “collateral casualties” No body- filled ditches or screaming napalmed kids have been allowed this time.
Conversely thai media and society seem to crave these trophies, be it Songkran road kill, a jealous mans victim a “suspected” drug dealer or a movie actor in a hotel closet. But hey, each to his own. Thais appear to be more comfortable with the indignity of death, the great social leveller.
A body sprawled in a street indicates that persons lack of status or karmic fate. The good often do die young in Thailand and evil tends to accrue social status, respect, barami and inviolability.
This is the system.
If you work outside it, chances are you’ll wind up on the pavement. If you accept and follow you will prosper. What would you choose?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
But Les, you said “I guess Human Rights Watch will join the ‘enemies list’ along with AI and The Nation…”. You clearly meant someone other than Suthep.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Here is a comment from an annonymous leading thai democracy activist for academics here to contemplate: QUOTE “…I truly believe that the embassy there is trying to justify the last year’s brutal killings – with the hope that it can convince a large number of academics there.
In addition to the reds, there must be a huge number of academics (in Australia) who are outspoken and interested in Thai politic. I hope those academics and other attendants will use their professional judgment freely.” ENDQUOTE
the value judgements for not attending the International Thai Studies Conf in Thailand (for thopse whop made that decision) should hold for the same thing here in Oz.
Thailand’s benevolent army
I`ve noticed that the military in the USA is also treated with much more respect than was apparently the case just a few decades ago. I guess that this sort of `pro-military culture` is certainly linked to a country`s ability to go to war, organize coups, etc.
New war in Kachin State?
Ko Moe Aung
Anyone here @ New Mandala ever raise this question.
Is Myanmar citizenry plight equal to the sum of West or whatever west is represented vs the government of Myanmar?
Let see:
1) When was Myanmar government ever “NUDGED”?
From one extreme of Laissez Fair to the other extreme R2P and anything in between with the like of AI,UN, ERI etc.
2) Ever a moment of useless careless vilification from day 1?
Goons, Uneducated, Tail wagging dog lucky Myanmar does not have lese majesté.
I am quite sure that should negate your west’s attempt at “ENGAGMENT” a fraud as well.
The west repeated denigrate this present atrocious government absolutely without regards for the citizenry plight degrade their overall will to success further.
This must be the ISSUE if one is to succeed in changing the present quagmire.
In doing ceaselessly unacceptably trivialized the plight of the citizenry,especially the most vulnerable ones.
Anyone here @ New Mandala ever raise this question.
Is Myanmar citizenry plight equal to the sum of West or whatever west is represent vs the government of Myanmar?
Thailand before the poll
The Speaker of the House said the decree had been submitted. The PM denied it and said “the speaker was confused”.
How they can screw THAT up, I cannot imagine.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Ralph Kramden – 69
Suthep scorns Human Rights Watch, slams “Thai soldiers killed red shirts”, tells to take care of America first
Ralph, that’s the great thing about an independent report, everyone will hate it. It has nothing good to say about the Thai army for example and the Abhisit government is attacked for, amongst other things, its post May 2010 censorship and treatment of detainees. It doesn’t pull any punches on subjects like the temple killings.
But then comes the problem for some. Do we say ‘yes they’re right on that’, but then complain they got it wrong on armed elements linked to the protesters, shooting soldiers on April 10th., or the blame being laid at the UDD’s door for the Central World fire. If there are no complaints then where does leave Jataporn and his CW story, or Robert Amsterdam and his report. Do we call them liars?
Then of course HRW have given us a lovely potted history of recent times in Thailand, including the war on drugs and the insurgency in the south. The great man doesn’t come out of too well. Is he really worth all this loss of life?
It will be interesting to see if the HRW report gets anywhere near the publicity given to the Amsterdam one, even here on NM. At the moment for such an important historical record it’s getting very little.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Les, how about this as a first response, seen at Siam Voices:
Suthep scorns Human Rights Watch, slams “Thai soldiers killed red shirts”, tells to take care of America first
In an interview at Government House, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaungsuban has voiced disappointment after the international human rights organizations Human Rights Watch has reported that Thai soldiers have caused the death of civilians during the red shirt protests, where 91 people have died. He said that after he saw the news he felt sad because he thinks such an organization should be neutral and not be inclined to take sides […] before they say anything and damage the public image of Thailand, [thus they] should have checked their facts properly first. [Suthep laments] where that organization was during the government of Thaksin Shinawatra, when they killed 3,000 people [“War on Drugs”] but hasn’t heard a thing from them.
“That organization should better look into their own country first before, […] [like] John F. Kennedy’s assassination, nothing is still clear about that. Thus all sides are still working and searching for facts, such as the independent [Truth and Reconciliation] Commission of Mr. Kanit na Nakorn […] we should listen more to them rather than some foreigners. The commission, that the government has set up, has just worked for 10 months and continues to do so […]”
““р╕кр╕╕р╣Ар╕Чр╕Ю” р╕Йр╕╕р╕Щр╕ор╕┤р╕зр╣Бр╕бр╕Щр╣Др╕гр╕Чр╣М р╕зр╕нр╕Чр╕Кр╣М р╕Лр╕▒р╕Ф “р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Др╕Чр╕в” р╕Жр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕З р╕вр╣Йр╕нр╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╣Др╕Ыр╕Фр╕╣р╣Бр╕ер╕нр╣Ар╕бр╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Фр╕╡р╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щ“, Matichon, May 4, 2011 (translation and emphasis by me [Siam Voices])
RK: Suthep gets several facts wrong here, but let’s ignore that and his continuation of the anti-foreign discourse and just look at his continuing denial that ANY deaths were caused by the army. Doesn’t that just sound like a demented rant?
New war in Kachin State?
plan B,
Old stooge? Speak for yourself, mate. Trouble with you is you can’t think out of the box, and you blame the West’s useless careless policy for the stalemate whereas you are more than happy to let the military regime get off scot free with just the SOS label. To me both violent and non-violent options are legitimate and must be considered.
Bear in mind the policy of ‘nudge’ is fashionable not just with Obama, David Cameron believes in it too especially with their Middle East buddies, and not just Israel, but they take exception to those who openly defy them.
The US administration, particularly the business lobby’s politicians, are bending over backwards to resume ties with Burma. The regime on its part as far as business is concerned will just bend over period. They never liked the Chinese anyway.
If only the regime gives an inch politically, say the amnesty will include political prisoners (of course they don’t exist, do they?). Can you imagine the American voters cheering on as their leaders just bend over?
A reality check is not just for the others, mate.