“Professor Tom Plate, Loyola Marymount University’s Distinguished Scholar of Asian and Pacific Studies, is a veteran American journalist and long-time columnist. His recent books on Lee Kuan Yew and Mahathir Mohamad (Conversations with …) have been bestsellers. Book three in the Giants of Asia series is on Thaksin Shinawatra, the former Prime Minister of Thailand, and is due out in September from Marshall Cavendish Publishers.”
That September book sort of looks interesting. However, your quote tends to indicate that Plate is rather of the intellectual fawning kind – who usually take the view that we need to cut certain regions a piece of slack because of their traumatised post-colonial pasts. Hence all the Asian Century and Giants of Asia type of hype. I fail to see why anyone would want to call the book’s subject a giant. Indeed, if such an obviously antisocial person were to ever move next door, I might be tempted to move away from the ogre.
I have given up believing in genius. Especially in Mohathir’s case. Call them genius for too long, and they get to believe it. At which point they become arrogant blowhard monomaniacs
I don’t know if it’s just me, but the critical problem I encountered was less to do with the spaces between words, and more to do with the absence of anything worth reading in Thai.
As you start to master French (or Russian, or Bengali, or Japanese, I’d imagine), a limitless new world opens up to you: literature, poetry, drama, films, philosophy, opera, political theory, semiotics. After learning Thai for about four / five years, I realised one day that all the books I was actually reading were from Western literature, translated (often poorly) into Thai. There were no films I particularly wanted to understand, and no theatre at all. The newspapers are vacuous; the ‘academic’ literature …
My enthusiasm sagged, and now I rarely read Thai, but I hate giving up on any project, so I’d genuinely like to know: what do you other non-native-speakers actually use your Thai reading skills FOR?
Dr Mahathir Mohammad has made Malaysia to be modern and well off with vast opportunities for the indigenous Malays who can now enjoy a higher standard of living thanks to their “Bumiputra Policy”. The Chinese and Indians are also enjoying the fruit of development albeit with some squeaking. The genius of Mahathir lay in holding the three major tribes together while supervising the country’s progress. He pulled the country out of economic recession in the late 1990s and built the infra-structures necessary for economic growth. Malaysia is now a model for Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam more than Singapore. I would give three cheers to Dr Mahathir!
I am a Camodian Student at Pannasastra University of Cambodia (PUC). This program is very interesting to me because this program will provide a big opportunity to the top students in the world willing to cooperate to each other concretely. More over all those student can share and learn the new things especialy to know the vital key factors transforming the economic and political power in Asia Pacific.
I hope to have a chance to join such important event.
Yes, that’s my point. Written Thai hasn’t changed much, possibly because many of the conservative institutions you mention have had control over it. Written Thai is still mostly used by a small class of elites. Outside of the ruling class, written Thai has been used to communicate only in the very basic terms necessary to support a largely rural agrarian lifestyle. That, of course, is changing quickly as Thailand’s society transforms into an enterprise economy. That process has only been taking place in earnest the past two or three generations, which is not a long time in terms of language development (In English we’ve been debating the Oxford comma and the split infinitive since the early 18th century!)
What I’m saying is that, right now, the structure of written Thai is not sufficient to support the higher level of discourse necessary for this transformation to continue to occur. Like the tectonic plates, somebody somewhere is going to have to give ground. Even the perfidious French have given up their fifty-year fight against ‘le weekend’!
As for the educated elites, have you ever tried discussing the structure of written Thai with a PhD student? I have. I host at least six of them at my home every Christmas on an exchange program. Almost every one of them (42 so far) is as frustrated by their written language’s inability to cope with complex discourse as I am with learning it!
Malaysia multicultural ha ha more like monocultural, monofaith: you cannot be a Malay if you are not Muslim-son of the soil, more like sons and daughters of ethno-religious absolutism
stuart # 23 Yes, languages develop all on their own. However, written scripts are much more conservative. They remain largely under the control of conservative factions in society. These groups unconsciously (most of the time) reinforce each other whether they be political, social, religious or academic. Yes, academic, just try handing in a PhD written in twitter English to test the flexibility of our great institutions. Written scripts are not free to meander like the spoken language.
Dan D # 25 You are right. That was a fabulous train wreak, I referred to it in
# 10 of this thread.
@laoguy, as a matter of fact, there was an official reform of the Thai language following the 1932 revolution. The redundancy and multiplicity of the words for the first, second and third person (I, you, he/she) was to be simplified and the use of royal dialects (raja sap) eliminated. Unfortunately, these changes failed to take hold. The ‘Thai way’ prevailed, so here we are.
“…BERSIH 2.0 is appalled that Prime Minister Najib Razak has cancelled this week’s Wednesday cabinet meeting to campaign in Sarawak. As the leader of the national government and Barisan Nasional (BN), Najib has set a bad example of blurring the lines between the federal government on the one hand and party politics on the other…”
Dan D #22. Actually, I really don’t mind the Thai script at all. I am a conservative in this regard as I really appreciate the thought put into the system by the original grammarians. To me, it only needs a little housekeeping to simplify. However, these small changes would see the foaming right wing emerge from their burrows. It happens everywhere, it’s why nothing has happened in English, it’s just not worth the political pain. I am not holding my breath on this one.
I’ve re-read the comments here and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Thai should undergo some kind of formal revision.
Languages are best left to evolve at their own pace without a central authority dictating those changes. French, for example, is famously controlled by a central government authority – to its detriment, I believe. English has no such cental authority – and as a result is immeasurably more adaptable and flexible. Indeed, this flexibility and ‘democratic’ structure is at the heart of its power as a global lingua franca.
I have a post-graduate degree in English grammar (very boring, I know) and I’ve spent most of my career as a newspaper editor (a bit more exciting), and I still spend hours debating with other well-qualified editors the use of a simple comma. There are no set rules, and there is no central authority dictating it use. This is not a weakness of English; in fact, it is its strength.
Thai will evolve too. Without punctuation, there is simply no way that modern Thai can accommodate the agility of a fast-evolving society. I believe it will naturally select, over time, a set of punctuation and other hallmarks of an advanced modern language. If it doesn’t adopt punctuation – or is forced not to – then it will lose its ability to reflect and progress the increasingly compex discourse of Thai speakers as they transform from a rural agrarian society into a much more literate enterprise economy.
Thai’s stolid written structure may well suit the ruling elite in so far as it keeps the dumbed-down “Phrai” in their place. This is exactly why it’s better not to have a formal review of the language by a central government authority (God forbid). It’s better that the language evolves at its own pace as the society transforms.
Incidentally, Mao Tse Tung famously dictated monumental changes to written Chinese as part of his “Great Leap Forward”. I’m no student of Chinese, but I understand the attempt has robbed the language of a great deal of its richness and flexibility (Perhaps someone here can talk more about this?). My guess is this process will reverse as China continues along its path of modernisation and individuals seize more control over their language.
You can’t stop progress. And language is a reflection of that.
Here’s hoping the Princess makes a quick recovery so she can move beyond Woody Talk and undertake a world tour.
People of all nationalities should get to know of the Thai monarchy’s works, efforts and greatness.
These unfortunate people are the Palestinians of SE Asia with a major ethnic element. They do hope to be repatriated ASAP provided their land is free and fair with a secure future to look forward to.
How many UN resolutions have been ignored by the powerful in the Middle East, and others actively and keenly sought, then liberally interpreted and enthusiastically implemented by the same states even today?
The UNHCR will certainly have a say in this. But we must not forget that Thailand if not by choice still accepted these refugees, and whether this was done with resentment or ill grace I for one am grateful to our neighbour. On top of this there are economic migrants that Thailand has also accommodated even if they are regarded as second class citizens, exploited and also persecuted by some locals.
Northern Thailand has already been historically influenced by Burma, and despite the undeniable success of the Burmese military regime as the purveyor of hell on earth to its own people in fulfilling the old Thai curse of vengeance for Burmese invasions and atrocities of the distant past, these migrants and refugees are ironically beginning to seem like a cultural invasion of sorts.
Hopefully our countries will not only be able to mend our fences but become firm friends in the end once politically progressive and enlightened groups come to power in both. It won’t be a moment too soon.
I still think Thaksin is using his younger sister as a decoy target for ammat to attack. It is also a test whether ammat would accept a person to be the country’s leader through election. Thaksin wants to see whether ammat would use illegal means, including coup, to dethrone Yingluck later.
Thaksin’s next plan is to wait for his eventual release from political ban on 30 May 2012 where he can play politics directly again.
It’s certainly a welcome news as Isan has 19 provinces and 130 House parliamentary seats (the biggest among other regions in Thailand, please correct me with these figures). It is also well known that Newin Chitchob has strong influence in Buriram province and many want to know what he plans to do in the next election.
It is also good news that Ajarn Sulak has won the Niwano prize, however he must also clarify his position in the current situation because he once appeared in the PAD stage and said incorrect things about Thaksin, accusing Thaksin of fathering a child who looks like him. This kind of thing should certainly be clarified.
To say that a degree from Chulalongkorn is worthless and unrecognized by other countries is an absurd exaggeration.
I personally know many graduates from Chulalongkorn who have later furthered their study at Harvard, Stanford, MIT and many other “world-class” universities. Would these universities accept them if degrees from Chulalongkorn are so lacking?
Several professors at Chulalongkorn’s Medical School, for instance, received their training from Massachusetts General Hospital (teaching hospital of Harvard and arguably the best teaching hospital in the US) and Mayo Clinic. As a matter of fact, most of the faculty at Chulalongkorn’s Medical School received their post-doctoral training abroad. Google can enlighten you a lot on this.
There’s room for improvement for Chulalongkorn, definitely. It’s a great university that can be even greater, in my opinion. But I have a hard time seeing it as a mediocre institution by any means.
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Seditious tales in Thailand
try search for the Hi S tales there are plenty of alternate sites
http://bangkokusa.com/
on your right hand you’ll find it.
Popular responses to Princess Chulabhorn’s interview
Nganadeeleg – 8
I think she’s in China now
Doctor in the House – a review by Tom Plate
“Professor Tom Plate, Loyola Marymount University’s Distinguished Scholar of Asian and Pacific Studies, is a veteran American journalist and long-time columnist. His recent books on Lee Kuan Yew and Mahathir Mohamad (Conversations with …) have been bestsellers. Book three in the Giants of Asia series is on Thaksin Shinawatra, the former Prime Minister of Thailand, and is due out in September from Marshall Cavendish Publishers.”
That September book sort of looks interesting. However, your quote tends to indicate that Plate is rather of the intellectual fawning kind – who usually take the view that we need to cut certain regions a piece of slack because of their traumatised post-colonial pasts. Hence all the Asian Century and Giants of Asia type of hype. I fail to see why anyone would want to call the book’s subject a giant. Indeed, if such an obviously antisocial person were to ever move next door, I might be tempted to move away from the ogre.
Doctor in the House – a review by Tom Plate
I have given up believing in genius. Especially in Mohathir’s case. Call them genius for too long, and they get to believe it. At which point they become arrogant blowhard monomaniacs
Reforming Thai language structure
I don’t know if it’s just me, but the critical problem I encountered was less to do with the spaces between words, and more to do with the absence of anything worth reading in Thai.
As you start to master French (or Russian, or Bengali, or Japanese, I’d imagine), a limitless new world opens up to you: literature, poetry, drama, films, philosophy, opera, political theory, semiotics. After learning Thai for about four / five years, I realised one day that all the books I was actually reading were from Western literature, translated (often poorly) into Thai. There were no films I particularly wanted to understand, and no theatre at all. The newspapers are vacuous; the ‘academic’ literature …
My enthusiasm sagged, and now I rarely read Thai, but I hate giving up on any project, so I’d genuinely like to know: what do you other non-native-speakers actually use your Thai reading skills FOR?
Doctor in the House – a review by Tom Plate
Dr Mahathir Mohammad has made Malaysia to be modern and well off with vast opportunities for the indigenous Malays who can now enjoy a higher standard of living thanks to their “Bumiputra Policy”. The Chinese and Indians are also enjoying the fruit of development albeit with some squeaking. The genius of Mahathir lay in holding the three major tribes together while supervising the country’s progress. He pulled the country out of economic recession in the late 1990s and built the infra-structures necessary for economic growth. Malaysia is now a model for Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam more than Singapore. I would give three cheers to Dr Mahathir!
Student scholarships for ANU Asia Pacific Week
I am a Camodian Student at Pannasastra University of Cambodia (PUC). This program is very interesting to me because this program will provide a big opportunity to the top students in the world willing to cooperate to each other concretely. More over all those student can share and learn the new things especialy to know the vital key factors transforming the economic and political power in Asia Pacific.
I hope to have a chance to join such important event.
Reforming Thai language structure
laoguy (26)
Yes, that’s my point. Written Thai hasn’t changed much, possibly because many of the conservative institutions you mention have had control over it. Written Thai is still mostly used by a small class of elites. Outside of the ruling class, written Thai has been used to communicate only in the very basic terms necessary to support a largely rural agrarian lifestyle. That, of course, is changing quickly as Thailand’s society transforms into an enterprise economy. That process has only been taking place in earnest the past two or three generations, which is not a long time in terms of language development (In English we’ve been debating the Oxford comma and the split infinitive since the early 18th century!)
What I’m saying is that, right now, the structure of written Thai is not sufficient to support the higher level of discourse necessary for this transformation to continue to occur. Like the tectonic plates, somebody somewhere is going to have to give ground. Even the perfidious French have given up their fifty-year fight against ‘le weekend’!
As for the educated elites, have you ever tried discussing the structure of written Thai with a PhD student? I have. I host at least six of them at my home every Christmas on an exchange program. Almost every one of them (42 so far) is as frustrated by their written language’s inability to cope with complex discourse as I am with learning it!
Doctor in the House – a review by Tom Plate
Malaysia multicultural ha ha more like monocultural, monofaith: you cannot be a Malay if you are not Muslim-son of the soil, more like sons and daughters of ethno-religious absolutism
Reforming Thai language structure
stuart # 23 Yes, languages develop all on their own. However, written scripts are much more conservative. They remain largely under the control of conservative factions in society. These groups unconsciously (most of the time) reinforce each other whether they be political, social, religious or academic. Yes, academic, just try handing in a PhD written in twitter English to test the flexibility of our great institutions. Written scripts are not free to meander like the spoken language.
Dan D # 25 You are right. That was a fabulous train wreak, I referred to it in
# 10 of this thread.
Reforming Thai language structure
@laoguy, as a matter of fact, there was an official reform of the Thai language following the 1932 revolution. The redundancy and multiplicity of the words for the first, second and third person (I, you, he/she) was to be simplified and the use of royal dialects (raja sap) eliminated. Unfortunately, these changes failed to take hold. The ‘Thai way’ prevailed, so here we are.
Electoral fraud in Malaysia – BERSIH calls for reforms
“…BERSIH 2.0 is appalled that Prime Minister Najib Razak has cancelled this week’s Wednesday cabinet meeting to campaign in Sarawak. As the leader of the national government and Barisan Nasional (BN), Najib has set a bad example of blurring the lines between the federal government on the one hand and party politics on the other…”
– Extracted from BERSIH 2.0 press statement, “Free and fair elections jeopardised in Sarawak“, BERSIH 2.0, 13 APril 2011.
Reforming Thai language structure
Dan D #22. Actually, I really don’t mind the Thai script at all. I am a conservative in this regard as I really appreciate the thought put into the system by the original grammarians. To me, it only needs a little housekeeping to simplify. However, these small changes would see the foaming right wing emerge from their burrows. It happens everywhere, it’s why nothing has happened in English, it’s just not worth the political pain. I am not holding my breath on this one.
Reforming Thai language structure
laoguy (21)
I’ve re-read the comments here and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Thai should undergo some kind of formal revision.
Languages are best left to evolve at their own pace without a central authority dictating those changes. French, for example, is famously controlled by a central government authority – to its detriment, I believe. English has no such cental authority – and as a result is immeasurably more adaptable and flexible. Indeed, this flexibility and ‘democratic’ structure is at the heart of its power as a global lingua franca.
I have a post-graduate degree in English grammar (very boring, I know) and I’ve spent most of my career as a newspaper editor (a bit more exciting), and I still spend hours debating with other well-qualified editors the use of a simple comma. There are no set rules, and there is no central authority dictating it use. This is not a weakness of English; in fact, it is its strength.
Thai will evolve too. Without punctuation, there is simply no way that modern Thai can accommodate the agility of a fast-evolving society. I believe it will naturally select, over time, a set of punctuation and other hallmarks of an advanced modern language. If it doesn’t adopt punctuation – or is forced not to – then it will lose its ability to reflect and progress the increasingly compex discourse of Thai speakers as they transform from a rural agrarian society into a much more literate enterprise economy.
Thai’s stolid written structure may well suit the ruling elite in so far as it keeps the dumbed-down “Phrai” in their place. This is exactly why it’s better not to have a formal review of the language by a central government authority (God forbid). It’s better that the language evolves at its own pace as the society transforms.
Incidentally, Mao Tse Tung famously dictated monumental changes to written Chinese as part of his “Great Leap Forward”. I’m no student of Chinese, but I understand the attempt has robbed the language of a great deal of its richness and flexibility (Perhaps someone here can talk more about this?). My guess is this process will reverse as China continues along its path of modernisation and individuals seize more control over their language.
You can’t stop progress. And language is a reflection of that.
Popular responses to Princess Chulabhorn’s interview
Here’s hoping the Princess makes a quick recovery so she can move beyond Woody Talk and undertake a world tour.
People of all nationalities should get to know of the Thai monarchy’s works, efforts and greatness.
Thailand intends to close refugee camps
These unfortunate people are the Palestinians of SE Asia with a major ethnic element. They do hope to be repatriated ASAP provided their land is free and fair with a secure future to look forward to.
How many UN resolutions have been ignored by the powerful in the Middle East, and others actively and keenly sought, then liberally interpreted and enthusiastically implemented by the same states even today?
The UNHCR will certainly have a say in this. But we must not forget that Thailand if not by choice still accepted these refugees, and whether this was done with resentment or ill grace I for one am grateful to our neighbour. On top of this there are economic migrants that Thailand has also accommodated even if they are regarded as second class citizens, exploited and also persecuted by some locals.
Northern Thailand has already been historically influenced by Burma, and despite the undeniable success of the Burmese military regime as the purveyor of hell on earth to its own people in fulfilling the old Thai curse of vengeance for Burmese invasions and atrocities of the distant past, these migrants and refugees are ironically beginning to seem like a cultural invasion of sorts.
Hopefully our countries will not only be able to mend our fences but become firm friends in the end once politically progressive and enlightened groups come to power in both. It won’t be a moment too soon.
An outdated way of choosing a leader!!
I still think Thaksin is using his younger sister as a decoy target for ammat to attack. It is also a test whether ammat would accept a person to be the country’s leader through election. Thaksin wants to see whether ammat would use illegal means, including coup, to dethrone Yingluck later.
Thaksin’s next plan is to wait for his eventual release from political ban on 30 May 2012 where he can play politics directly again.
A new voice from Isaan
It’s certainly a welcome news as Isan has 19 provinces and 130 House parliamentary seats (the biggest among other regions in Thailand, please correct me with these figures). It is also well known that Newin Chitchob has strong influence in Buriram province and many want to know what he plans to do in the next election.
It is also good news that Ajarn Sulak has won the Niwano prize, however he must also clarify his position in the current situation because he once appeared in the PAD stage and said incorrect things about Thaksin, accusing Thaksin of fathering a child who looks like him. This kind of thing should certainly be clarified.
A new voice from Isaan
Stay tuned– the Thai language version is forthcoming.
University rankings from Chula’s perspective
To say that a degree from Chulalongkorn is worthless and unrecognized by other countries is an absurd exaggeration.
I personally know many graduates from Chulalongkorn who have later furthered their study at Harvard, Stanford, MIT and many other “world-class” universities. Would these universities accept them if degrees from Chulalongkorn are so lacking?
Several professors at Chulalongkorn’s Medical School, for instance, received their training from Massachusetts General Hospital (teaching hospital of Harvard and arguably the best teaching hospital in the US) and Mayo Clinic. As a matter of fact, most of the faculty at Chulalongkorn’s Medical School received their post-doctoral training abroad. Google can enlighten you a lot on this.
There’s room for improvement for Chulalongkorn, definitely. It’s a great university that can be even greater, in my opinion. But I have a hard time seeing it as a mediocre institution by any means.
Know thy story before bashing, people.