Is the book sold in Thailand?
Now that we have preliminary reports and other ‘leaks’ surfacing about the DSI ‘investigation’ on last April events, I still have the same question than some months ago to Nick: have you finally been interviewed by the DSI about what you haw witnessed?
A history of Thailand
By Christopher John Baker, Pasuk Phongpaichit
Reference to a Hmong rebellion in 1967-1968 (Baker, 175) actually is a reference to a movement in Pitsanulok, Luy, Petchabun and Phrae where a group was based in Phu Hin Rong Klao.
The elder of a church who was part of that rebellion including the defence of Kao Ko (р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Др╣Йр╕н) took me around these locations. The leader at Phu Hin Rong Klao was actually communist leader from the South. The Thai government troops lost in most battles and skirmishes, but used Chinese mercenaries effectively and eventually squeezed the rebels economically into submission. The Hmong who surrendered were “reeducated.” After returning to their villages, they found that their people had become Christians. The church elder I talked to said in so many words: I was surprised and asked “What is a Christian?” They told me they teach us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Oh? That’s what the communists said, but the only difference is that Christians don’t get killed. So I became a Christian too.”
In the missionary records located at the Payap University archives, I found information about a rebellion in Northern Thailand in 1902. The church’s “neutral” stance actually sided with Siam. I looked it up and found this reference:
“Phraya Chaiyabun Monument This monument is located 4 kms. from Phrae Market, being constructed as a memorial to Phraya Chaiyabun who was the governor of Muang Phrae, during the reign of King Rama V, and was killed by the Ngiew tribal people because he did not agree to set his hand in a document giving out Muang Phrae to the Ngiew during the Ngiew rebellion in the year 1902 A.D.”
1. The CPB ‘belongs’ to the country.
2. The King has absolute control over the CPB.
The problem herein is: Why does the King, extraneous to democratic institutions, having no accountability to the people, have control over the money that is not his own?
We’re talking about 30 billion USD here, not even a superficial sum by any means.
good, anything that attempts objectively to unravel these poignant events is good… But thus said, it seems to me there are more questions raised in the presentation than actually answered (or maybe the answers are in the book?): in fact we may never know some of minutiae, and speculation can be dangerous. Thus, in my view we need to be cautious about statements such as “violence of militants” (realistically who has access to M79s?) and “it is no wonder that some parts of the Red Shirts decided to take matters into their own hands” (to do what?) These are of course assumptions needing substantiation. Just as the myth of the burning of Central World has now been exposed. A small point: (if this is the event that Nick refers to in “April” ’09) participants who I interviewed who were at Pattaya 10-11 April 2009 demo said that it was not a case of their leaders “loosing control” (op cit) over the masses, but they were all pushed back into the conference hotel by Newin’s Blue Shirt thugs[-for-hire]; the protestors were in effect cornered and had no where else to go to avoid direct confrontation…
Reading the 1936 Act is all well and good, but insufficient. One needs to consider the article by Thai academic Porphant Ouyyanont. He cites legal cases and something he says is the Crown Property Act of 1948.
Tossaporn: I have been reading your pleadings for belief in beliefs. I have always thought that a student is one who critically assesses positions and ideas and seeks evidence to support or reject these. If you only want beliefs, you are in the realm of superstition.
Well, I don’t believe that (it’s my right to believe) and I don’t want to argue with you guys. Because most of you here are anti-Monarchy anyway. After all, I’m Thai.
I think sinister is not even an argument here, you miss the point. The point of the discussion, which you indirectly start with your first comment, is whether the 30 billion asset really belong the the king. And from the Crown Property Act it seems to indicated that the king actually own the asset. Unless of cause you have any other source you like to share.
Furthermore, being Thai doesn’t mean that you have to automatically pro-monarch, that’s not very democratic isnt it?
I’ve read both the original Thai and its English translation. And I still think most “regulars” on New Mandala and its administrators are trying to paint the picture that the King is corrupt or gained his wealth through sinister means.
Well, I don’t believe that (it’s my right to believe) and I don’t want to argue with you guys. Because most of you here are anti-Monarchy anyway. After all, I’m Thai.
And like Stuart@25 said about this website:
“the views of Thais are usually condemned as ill-informed, uneducated and brainwashed”, which I tend to agree.
Rather than encourage yet more “must be” speculation, I’m happy to clarify. My observation about “making extravagant statements with zero back-up” doesn’t refer to any one of those specific examples – because (forgive the cliche) there are simply so many as to be too numerous to mention.
Still, at least my observation has provided another opportunity to recite a few of them – and, once again, with zero back-up.
c36
A slight correction. As emerged when I finally tracked down* the source of this particular Vichai N claim, it wasn’t even direct to Bangkok Dan from “a teacher who used to teach Nattawut” but from a friend of Bangkok Dan’s who knew a teacher who taught Nattawut…..
Funny how just last year many on NM were doubting an election would happen this year. A quick reminder if I’m not being too rude;-)
Nich 21-Sep-2010 – For that reason I think we are unlikely to see a 2011 poll and even 2012 starts to appear unduly busy…
John Francis Lee 21-Seep-2010 – There will never be another election if its up to the so-called Democrat Party.
Nganadeeleg 21-Sep-2010 – So the consensus seems to be that the Democrat’s and/or its backers should be (0r are) rooting for someone’s mortality (as opposed to immortality) to expire in late 2011?
Even stranger to see a story in today’s Bangkok Post saying that the Puea Thai would prefer not to have an election right now.
Still better news inside the article for the Puea Thai.
He (a highly placed source inside the party) said the party now has more “ammunition”, or election funds of five billion baht, at its disposal compared to four billion in the previous election and with the money it would win the election “hands down”.
I quoted rather extravagantly at Baht 100 million, but which SteveCM later corrected to the more modest Baht 10 million.
Actually the point is not that you misquote BangkokDan Vichai, our complain is that you even dare to quote BangkokDan at all. Where did he get this info from?? a teacher who used to teach Nattawut when he was a child or something, does that even sound credible to you????
I don’t know if its that the Democrats have blown their wad and feel its now or never, or if they’re afraid the military will get cold feet and disallow any election. This morning’s Vejjajiva Post says
Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva… will move ahead with a plan to call an early House dissolution, a highly-placed source with the Democrat Party says… the source said the prime minister would stick to the plan to dissolve the House of Representatives within the next four weeks.
I fully expect a free and fair Thai election of 2011 to surprise the Thai junta as much as the Burmese election 0f 1990 surprised the junta in Burma.
The requirement outside of Thailand ought to be clear, in retrospect : do not allow the junta to nullify the election as was done in Burma. Stick with recognition of the elected government.
The EC also has the authority to cancel the election in constituencies where violence breaks out, she said. In the past, the EC had cancelled polling in some flooded constituencies but, so far, had never cancelled an election because of political disputes.
If political violence occurrs in any constituency, the EC may ask the government to invoke the Internal Security Act to ensure peace and order in those constituencies, Mrs Sodsri said.
to maker me think that between them the junta and the EC have some very foul plans indeed in store for an election.
Yesterday the Democrat Party reportedly raised Baht 750 million in contributions from a fund-raising party; that must mean Yes an election will be soon.
But if the election will be based on the issue of the handling and quelling of the violent BlackMay 2010 Red Shirts rampage, I believe the Democrat Party would win handily . . . and not because the Thai electorate is gullible as Nganadeeleg now claims.
But the next Thai election will be decided on the rice-and-fish-on-the-table issue and on that score, because of raging inflation that stings and hurt the ordinary Thai citizen, the Democrat Party could lose big.
For the 90 or so deaths during BlackMay2010, I still hold the Red Shirts leadership primarily responsible. But that is my opinion.
” . . . that the large volume of ” thumbs down” reaction you get has rather more to do with your habit of making extravagant statements ” (SteveCM #32)
SteveCM must be referring to my comment pertaining to the Thaksin-paid-for salary of one Red Shirt leader Nattawut which I quoted rather extravagantly at Baht 100 million, but which SteveCM later corrected to the more modest Baht 10 million. Or to my claim that perhaps every Red Shirt leader, a-la Nattawut and General Kattiya, did/do too draw Thaksin salaries during the Red’s violent protests. Or those nearly every day M79 grenade launcher attacks before and during the Red shirts violent protests were deliberately malicious with terror-intended? Or that the opposition Pheau Thai Party (carried over from outlawed Thai Rak Thai Party) is not a political party for the Thai people, but a party to serve Thaksin and only Thaksin?
U Nu was an outstanding student leader, amicable AFPFL president and able and honest politician who was the first premier of the independent Burma despite the distractions by his opponent. He saved the country when it was beset with the insurgents in the post-independence period and he never flinched from democracy even under detention by General Ne Win. He was a devout Buddhist, of course that opponents tried to vilify him for making Buddhism the state religion in 1960. Thailand makes it a state religion and many Muslim countries declare Islam their state religion like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc. We Burmese look upon U Nu as a benevolent, honest and patriotic Prime Minister that none of his successors can emulate or compare!
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Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
thank you Nick
one of the heroes capturing facts and feelings
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
Is the book sold in Thailand?
Now that we have preliminary reports and other ‘leaks’ surfacing about the DSI ‘investigation’ on last April events, I still have the same question than some months ago to Nick: have you finally been interviewed by the DSI about what you haw witnessed?
Counting Thailand’s coups
A history of Thailand
By Christopher John Baker, Pasuk Phongpaichit
Reference to a Hmong rebellion in 1967-1968 (Baker, 175) actually is a reference to a movement in Pitsanulok, Luy, Petchabun and Phrae where a group was based in Phu Hin Rong Klao.
The elder of a church who was part of that rebellion including the defence of Kao Ko (р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Др╣Йр╕н) took me around these locations. The leader at Phu Hin Rong Klao was actually communist leader from the South. The Thai government troops lost in most battles and skirmishes, but used Chinese mercenaries effectively and eventually squeezed the rebels economically into submission. The Hmong who surrendered were “reeducated.” After returning to their villages, they found that their people had become Christians. The church elder I talked to said in so many words: I was surprised and asked “What is a Christian?” They told me they teach us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Oh? That’s what the communists said, but the only difference is that Christians don’t get killed. So I became a Christian too.”
Counting Thailand’s coups
In the missionary records located at the Payap University archives, I found information about a rebellion in Northern Thailand in 1902. The church’s “neutral” stance actually sided with Siam. I looked it up and found this reference:
“Phraya Chaiyabun Monument This monument is located 4 kms. from Phrae Market, being constructed as a memorial to Phraya Chaiyabun who was the governor of Muang Phrae, during the reign of King Rama V, and was killed by the Ngiew tribal people because he did not agree to set his hand in a document giving out Muang Phrae to the Ngiew during the Ngiew rebellion in the year 1902 A.D.”
http://www.hotelthailand.com/travelinfo/north/phrae.html
Thailand’s royal billions
Sigh… This is getting repetitive.
The facts are
1. The CPB ‘belongs’ to the country.
2. The King has absolute control over the CPB.
The problem herein is: Why does the King, extraneous to democratic institutions, having no accountability to the people, have control over the money that is not his own?
We’re talking about 30 billion USD here, not even a superficial sum by any means.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
good, anything that attempts objectively to unravel these poignant events is good… But thus said, it seems to me there are more questions raised in the presentation than actually answered (or maybe the answers are in the book?): in fact we may never know some of minutiae, and speculation can be dangerous. Thus, in my view we need to be cautious about statements such as “violence of militants” (realistically who has access to M79s?) and “it is no wonder that some parts of the Red Shirts decided to take matters into their own hands” (to do what?) These are of course assumptions needing substantiation. Just as the myth of the burning of Central World has now been exposed. A small point: (if this is the event that Nick refers to in “April” ’09) participants who I interviewed who were at Pattaya 10-11 April 2009 demo said that it was not a case of their leaders “loosing control” (op cit) over the masses, but they were all pushed back into the conference hotel by Newin’s Blue Shirt thugs[-for-hire]; the protestors were in effect cornered and had no where else to go to avoid direct confrontation…
Thailand’s royal billions
Reading the 1936 Act is all well and good, but insufficient. One needs to consider the article by Thai academic Porphant Ouyyanont. He cites legal cases and something he says is the Crown Property Act of 1948.
Tossaporn: I have been reading your pleadings for belief in beliefs. I have always thought that a student is one who critically assesses positions and ideas and seeks evidence to support or reject these. If you only want beliefs, you are in the realm of superstition.
Thailand’s royal billions
Tossaporn Sirak – 37
Well, I don’t believe that (it’s my right to believe) and I don’t want to argue with you guys. Because most of you here are anti-Monarchy anyway. After all, I’m Thai.
I think sinister is not even an argument here, you miss the point. The point of the discussion, which you indirectly start with your first comment, is whether the 30 billion asset really belong the the king. And from the Crown Property Act it seems to indicated that the king actually own the asset. Unless of cause you have any other source you like to share.
Furthermore, being Thai doesn’t mean that you have to automatically pro-monarch, that’s not very democratic isnt it?
Thailand’s royal billions
Paul@33
Here is the official English translation of the Act.
http://www.lawreform.go.th/lawreform/images/th/content/en/482/c482_2.pdf
I’ve read both the original Thai and its English translation. And I still think most “regulars” on New Mandala and its administrators are trying to paint the picture that the King is corrupt or gained his wealth through sinister means.
Well, I don’t believe that (it’s my right to believe) and I don’t want to argue with you guys. Because most of you here are anti-Monarchy anyway. After all, I’m Thai.
And like Stuart@25 said about this website:
“the views of Thais are usually condemned as ill-informed, uneducated and brainwashed”, which I tend to agree.
Where to now for the UDD?
Some information to add to your discussion on this subject. (No comment from me. I’m afraid of all of you. So I just shut up)
Look at this ABC’s Zoe Daniel exclusive interview with Dr. Weng two days ago.
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/connectasia/stories/201103/s3156971.htm
The headlines read: “Thai red-shirt leader vows to respect polls”
Thailand’s royal billions
c35
Rather than encourage yet more “must be” speculation, I’m happy to clarify. My observation about “making extravagant statements with zero back-up” doesn’t refer to any one of those specific examples – because (forgive the cliche) there are simply so many as to be too numerous to mention.
Still, at least my observation has provided another opportunity to recite a few of them – and, once again, with zero back-up.
c36
A slight correction. As emerged when I finally tracked down* the source of this particular Vichai N claim, it wasn’t even direct to Bangkok Dan from “a teacher who used to teach Nattawut” but from a friend of Bangkok Dan’s who knew a teacher who taught Nattawut…..
* http://www.newmandala.org/2010/10/27/review-of-nattawut-saikua-biography/#comment-722258 (and more after that).
Abhisit readying for the people’s judgement?
Funny how just last year many on NM were doubting an election would happen this year. A quick reminder if I’m not being too rude;-)
Nich 21-Sep-2010 – For that reason I think we are unlikely to see a 2011 poll and even 2012 starts to appear unduly busy…
John Francis Lee 21-Seep-2010 – There will never be another election if its up to the so-called Democrat Party.
Nganadeeleg 21-Sep-2010 – So the consensus seems to be that the Democrat’s and/or its backers should be (0r are) rooting for someone’s mortality (as opposed to immortality) to expire in late 2011?
Even stranger to see a story in today’s Bangkok Post saying that the Puea Thai would prefer not to have an election right now.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/225614/dissolution-will-go-ahead
Still better news inside the article for the Puea Thai.
He (a highly placed source inside the party) said the party now has more “ammunition”, or election funds of five billion baht, at its disposal compared to four billion in the previous election and with the money it would win the election “hands down”.
So all is not lost I guess.
Milestone for New Mandala comments on mainland Southeast Asia
Is that 30,000 ‘published’ comments 😉
Thailand’s royal billions
Vichai N – 35
I quoted rather extravagantly at Baht 100 million, but which SteveCM later corrected to the more modest Baht 10 million.
Actually the point is not that you misquote BangkokDan Vichai, our complain is that you even dare to quote BangkokDan at all. Where did he get this info from?? a teacher who used to teach Nattawut when he was a child or something, does that even sound credible to you????
btw, what do you think about р╕Юр╕гр╕Ъ ??
Abhisit readying for the people’s judgement?
I don’t know if its that the Democrats have blown their wad and feel its now or never, or if they’re afraid the military will get cold feet and disallow any election. This morning’s Vejjajiva Post says
Dissolution ‘will go ahead’
I fully expect a free and fair Thai election of 2011 to surprise the Thai junta as much as the Burmese election 0f 1990 surprised the junta in Burma.
The requirement outside of Thailand ought to be clear, in retrospect : do not allow the junta to nullify the election as was done in Burma. Stick with recognition of the elected government.
The news of weapons disappearing from Thai military store couples with EC might ask for use of ISA…
to maker me think that between them the junta and the EC have some very foul plans indeed in store for an election.
Abhisit readying for the people’s judgement?
Yesterday the Democrat Party reportedly raised Baht 750 million in contributions from a fund-raising party; that must mean Yes an election will be soon.
But if the election will be based on the issue of the handling and quelling of the violent BlackMay 2010 Red Shirts rampage, I believe the Democrat Party would win handily . . . and not because the Thai electorate is gullible as Nganadeeleg now claims.
But the next Thai election will be decided on the rice-and-fish-on-the-table issue and on that score, because of raging inflation that stings and hurt the ordinary Thai citizen, the Democrat Party could lose big.
For the 90 or so deaths during BlackMay2010, I still hold the Red Shirts leadership primarily responsible. But that is my opinion.
Counting Thailand’s coups
Surely listing all the governments of the 20th century and then labeling the provenance of each would get them all?
The unelected governments – including the hyphenated self- silent- and so on coups – could then be classified according to preference.
Milestone for New Mandala comments on mainland Southeast Asia
You have a google ranking of 6. The Nation has 7 and the Bangkok Post has 8.
So you are catching up.
Thailand’s royal billions
” . . . that the large volume of ” thumbs down” reaction you get has rather more to do with your habit of making extravagant statements ” (SteveCM #32)
SteveCM must be referring to my comment pertaining to the Thaksin-paid-for salary of one Red Shirt leader Nattawut which I quoted rather extravagantly at Baht 100 million, but which SteveCM later corrected to the more modest Baht 10 million. Or to my claim that perhaps every Red Shirt leader, a-la Nattawut and General Kattiya, did/do too draw Thaksin salaries during the Red’s violent protests. Or those nearly every day M79 grenade launcher attacks before and during the Red shirts violent protests were deliberately malicious with terror-intended? Or that the opposition Pheau Thai Party (carried over from outlawed Thai Rak Thai Party) is not a political party for the Thai people, but a party to serve Thaksin and only Thaksin?
The rehabilitation of U Nu?
U Nu was an outstanding student leader, amicable AFPFL president and able and honest politician who was the first premier of the independent Burma despite the distractions by his opponent. He saved the country when it was beset with the insurgents in the post-independence period and he never flinched from democracy even under detention by General Ne Win. He was a devout Buddhist, of course that opponents tried to vilify him for making Buddhism the state religion in 1960. Thailand makes it a state religion and many Muslim countries declare Islam their state religion like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc. We Burmese look upon U Nu as a benevolent, honest and patriotic Prime Minister that none of his successors can emulate or compare!