[Ajarn Somsak has been trying to post the following comment for some time (to follow on from his comment #23). But it has disappeared into the New Mandala ether. So I am posting it here.]
Further to my argument that “Red” as a historically specific movement (i.e., not just the appearance of color; Taylor’s description about the red color above misses the point entirely), did not emerge until late 2008, i.e. after the explicit intervention by the monarchy, see this article (in Thai) written by a PAD sympathizer, and published on 13 October 2008 (the day of the funeral). It “compares” the PAD and the UDD. Notice that not only the author of the article himself, but the 37 comments, all by PAD sympathizers, there was no mention at all of “Red”, simply because it’s not perceived as a distinctive mark of the UDD as yet, as it would soon be. http://www.oknation.net/blog/kangpungpla/2008/10/13/entry-1
While notionally loyal to deposed former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra…
Nich I think you are falling into a trap by trying discount the position of Thaksin in the red-shirt movement. I suspect those outside of, let’s call it Thaksin’s sphere of influence, are a very small minority.
After that bloodshed, the proverbial ‘gloves came off’ in an increasingly no holds-barred showdown.
In fact I think many were surprised by the lack of response by Anupong between the events in April, where the more militant second generation UDD leadership created a bloodbath ending with ‘out of control’ soldiers reacting to the loss of their command structure by shooting protesters, and the assassination of Seh Daeng in May. History may explain what was going on in this period of a few weeks.
I guess one of the interesting outcomes was that, like the PAD before them, the UDD was unable to turn their extra-parliamentary support into parliamentary success in the latest series of by-elections.
As The Economist’s Banyan column put it, a city “whose eerily empty streets and subterranean parliament suggest a Pyongyang without the dystopia”. Oh, wait. They were talking about Canberra.
Funny, you have just confirmed statement, intentionally or not. A huge part of the red is Thaksin fan, I agree. However, that doesn’t mean that Thaksin have to influence to dictate the direction the red. Sombat posted a message of his facebook that said ” Victory of Democracy is victory for Thaksin, but Thakin’s victory is not victory for Democracy”, people generally agree with him, that’s said a lot about how people think of Thaksin.
Yes indeed Les. People who get rich in rural areas have a lot of explaining to do! How dare they!
Ho-ho Andrew – I have a sneaking suspicion it won’t be a rich kulak that opens the door, more likely a foreigner or his wife. I think you will find many owe more to the Thailand’s entertainment industry than increased agricultural output.
@ Dave Abbott, @ MalcLeigh – I have heard this numerous times, even from people within the system. Is there any documented evidence that is not a third party statement? Appreciate if you could point me to it.
@ Nasi Lemak – I have seen this via email but unable to locate the source within WikiLeaks. Appreciate if you could provide link.
“I have been fascinated on my drives through the northeast of large concrete villas built in the middle of rural villages. I’ve often been tempted to stop off and say “Who are you and how did you get to build this mansion here?”
Yes indeed Les. People who get rich in rural areas have a lot of explaining to do! How dare they!
We will need to define a failed state to discuss this topic further I believe.
Let’s use Chomsky. Noam Chomsky is arguably a leftist.
He has a book called “Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy (American Empire Project)” in which he argues that the US the the world’s biggest failed state.
So, the label of failed states being a neo-con tool maybe out of place.
The central criteria Chomsky uses to identify a failed state is what he calls a “democratic deficit”
“..In the respects that one mentioned, and also, another critical respect, namely the–what is sometimes called a democratic deficit, that is, a substantial gap between public policy and public opinion…” (Read here)
This is clearly the case in Malaysia where public policy is formulated, as a priority, to entrench the ruling elite rather than serve the public, whose interest are a secondary consideration.
The statistics that we are seeing (brain drain, outflow of funds, loss in investor confidence, etc) demonstrates that key stakeholders are opting out of Malaysia.
Malaysia’s middle class votes with their feet (and money). Unlike, the Red Shirts, they prefer this option, rather than fight the regime.
Also view this short documentary to understand why it is likely that Malaysia will fail.
The Democrats, acting as compradores for global capital, are chasing the least profit for the smallest number.
“It’s easy to think of Thailand and countries like it as producing GDP [gross domestic product] from the factories which line the highways as you enter Bangkok,” says Townsend, referring to firms like Ford and Nike with large operations in the area.
But multinationals and incorporated businesses only account for 20 percent of Thailand’s national income. “We already know that households as firms are a big building block of the national economy,” he adds.
The greatest profit for the largest number lies outside of Bangkok and its new, grillion-baht-subway, air-conditioned nightmare.
Everyone outside Bangkok knows that. Most inside know it as well… they all just fancy themselves as being among the smallest number who split the least profit.
“Malaysia a failed state” is quite preposterous by any objective measure.
Given the way the term is so heavily geopoliticaly loaded by the war on terror, to claim a Muslim country is or will be a failed state raises the question of whether the author is just naive or islamophobic.
The whole idea that a nation must become 1st world or inevitably be relegated to basket-case status isn’t born out by history and also smacks of neocon thinking.
81 percent of that wealth accumulation was due to savings of income, as opposed to gifts or remittances
It would be very interesting to know the breakdown of the remaining 19%. I have been fascinated on my drives through the northeast of large concrete villas built in the middle of rural villages. I’ve often been tempted to stop off and say “Who are you and how did you get to build this mansion here?”
Leah – Is that just a “popular misconception”, or is it state propaganda?
Or even, just possibly, in some cases, true?
Now let’s see – oh yes.
Who gets to pick the Phue Thai leader again?
Who was it we called to decide whether to call off the 2010 protest?
Of course the anti-Thaksin red-shirt leaders could always call a rally where Thaksin supporters weren’t welcome, couldn’t they? Or they could stand up on the stage at a UDD rally and criticize Thaksin couldn’t they?
I wonder why this doesn’t happen or is it happening and nobody is reporting it?
and very interesting
“gains in wealth correlate specifically to the highest level of education obtained by a family member, and not the family’s median educational level.”
Popular misconception is to reduce the Red Shirts simply to the point of Thaksin as the big leader, and the leaders and the protesters as simply bought off by Thaksin.
Is that just a “popular misconception”, or is it state propaganda?
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Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
[Ajarn Somsak has been trying to post the following comment for some time (to follow on from his comment #23). But it has disappeared into the New Mandala ether. So I am posting it here.]
Further to my argument that “Red” as a historically specific movement (i.e., not just the appearance of color; Taylor’s description about the red color above misses the point entirely), did not emerge until late 2008, i.e. after the explicit intervention by the monarchy, see this article (in Thai) written by a PAD sympathizer, and published on 13 October 2008 (the day of the funeral). It “compares” the PAD and the UDD. Notice that not only the author of the article himself, but the 37 comments, all by PAD sympathizers, there was no mention at all of “Red”, simply because it’s not perceived as a distinctive mark of the UDD as yet, as it would soon be.
http://www.oknation.net/blog/kangpungpla/2008/10/13/entry-1
Somsak Jeamteerasakul
Seeing like a state
…just needs the early morning cyclists
Thailand in 2010
While notionally loyal to deposed former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra…
Nich I think you are falling into a trap by trying discount the position of Thaksin in the red-shirt movement. I suspect those outside of, let’s call it Thaksin’s sphere of influence, are a very small minority.
After that bloodshed, the proverbial ‘gloves came off’ in an increasingly no holds-barred showdown.
In fact I think many were surprised by the lack of response by Anupong between the events in April, where the more militant second generation UDD leadership created a bloodbath ending with ‘out of control’ soldiers reacting to the loss of their command structure by shooting protesters, and the assassination of Seh Daeng in May. History may explain what was going on in this period of a few weeks.
I guess one of the interesting outcomes was that, like the PAD before them, the UDD was unable to turn their extra-parliamentary support into parliamentary success in the latest series of by-elections.
Seeing like a state
As The Economist’s Banyan column put it, a city “whose eerily empty streets and subterranean parliament suggest a Pyongyang without the dystopia”. Oh, wait. They were talking about Canberra.
Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
LesAbbey – 35
Funny, you have just confirmed statement, intentionally or not. A huge part of the red is Thaksin fan, I agree. However, that doesn’t mean that Thaksin have to influence to dictate the direction the red. Sombat posted a message of his facebook that said ” Victory of Democracy is victory for Thaksin, but Thakin’s victory is not victory for Democracy”, people generally agree with him, that’s said a lot about how people think of Thaksin.
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
That link takes me to a German-only 99 page version without further links.
Any idea how to find the English?
Thanks.
Seeing like a state
Same impression I had…
Moving out of poverty
Andrew – 4
Yes indeed Les. People who get rich in rural areas have a lot of explaining to do! How dare they!
Ho-ho Andrew – I have a sneaking suspicion it won’t be a rich kulak that opens the door, more likely a foreigner or his wife. I think you will find many owe more to the Thailand’s entertainment industry than increased agricultural output.
Malaysia a failed state – The writings are on the wall?
@ Dave Abbott, @ MalcLeigh – I have heard this numerous times, even from people within the system. Is there any documented evidence that is not a third party statement? Appreciate if you could point me to it.
@ Nasi Lemak – I have seen this via email but unable to locate the source within WikiLeaks. Appreciate if you could provide link.
Thanks.
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
There is an e-book available with German-English-Thai Versions (total 1273 pages), and additional information:
The net income (price = about 75 Baht less internet service) will be donated to help less known political prisoners.
http://www.xinxii.com/der-tod-des-knigs-von-siam-p-323703.html?language=en¤cy=USD
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
Is anyone working on retyping the book into Word format? This kind of work is a bit slow for non-natives…
Moving out of poverty
“I have been fascinated on my drives through the northeast of large concrete villas built in the middle of rural villages. I’ve often been tempted to stop off and say “Who are you and how did you get to build this mansion here?”
Yes indeed Les. People who get rich in rural areas have a lot of explaining to do! How dare they!
Malaysia a failed state – The writings are on the wall?
We will need to define a failed state to discuss this topic further I believe.
Let’s use Chomsky. Noam Chomsky is arguably a leftist.
He has a book called “Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy (American Empire Project)” in which he argues that the US the the world’s biggest failed state.
So, the label of failed states being a neo-con tool maybe out of place.
The central criteria Chomsky uses to identify a failed state is what he calls a “democratic deficit”
“..In the respects that one mentioned, and also, another critical respect, namely the–what is sometimes called a democratic deficit, that is, a substantial gap between public policy and public opinion…” (Read here)
This is clearly the case in Malaysia where public policy is formulated, as a priority, to entrench the ruling elite rather than serve the public, whose interest are a secondary consideration.
The statistics that we are seeing (brain drain, outflow of funds, loss in investor confidence, etc) demonstrates that key stakeholders are opting out of Malaysia.
Malaysia’s middle class votes with their feet (and money). Unlike, the Red Shirts, they prefer this option, rather than fight the regime.
Also view this short documentary to understand why it is likely that Malaysia will fail.
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
I have just noticed that three scans of р╕Бр╕Зр╕Ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕Ыр╕╡р╕ир╕▓р╕И are available on Scribd for reading or download:
http://www.scribd.com/collections/2496420/The-Devil-s-Discus, http://www.scribd.com/collections/2801432/р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╕лр╕▓р╕вр╕▓р╕Б, and http://www.scribd.com/collections/2690652/р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╕лр╕▓р╕вр╕▓р╕Б.
Thank you to mysterious uploaders!
Moving out of poverty
The Democrats, acting as compradores for global capital, are chasing the least profit for the smallest number.
The greatest profit for the largest number lies outside of Bangkok and its new, grillion-baht-subway, air-conditioned nightmare.
Everyone outside Bangkok knows that. Most inside know it as well… they all just fancy themselves as being among the smallest number who split the least profit.
Malaysia a failed state – The writings are on the wall?
“Malaysia a failed state” is quite preposterous by any objective measure.
Given the way the term is so heavily geopoliticaly loaded by the war on terror, to claim a Muslim country is or will be a failed state raises the question of whether the author is just naive or islamophobic.
The whole idea that a nation must become 1st world or inevitably be relegated to basket-case status isn’t born out by history and also smacks of neocon thinking.
Moving out of poverty
81 percent of that wealth accumulation was due to savings of income, as opposed to gifts or remittances
It would be very interesting to know the breakdown of the remaining 19%. I have been fascinated on my drives through the northeast of large concrete villas built in the middle of rural villages. I’ve often been tempted to stop off and say “Who are you and how did you get to build this mansion here?”
Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
Leah – Is that just a “popular misconception”, or is it state propaganda?
Or even, just possibly, in some cases, true?
Now let’s see – oh yes.
Who gets to pick the Phue Thai leader again?
Who was it we called to decide whether to call off the 2010 protest?
Of course the anti-Thaksin red-shirt leaders could always call a rally where Thaksin supporters weren’t welcome, couldn’t they? Or they could stand up on the stage at a UDD rally and criticize Thaksin couldn’t they?
I wonder why this doesn’t happen or is it happening and nobody is reporting it?
Moving out of poverty
good news
and very interesting
“gains in wealth correlate specifically to the highest level of education obtained by a family member, and not the family’s median educational level.”
thanks for this succinct report
Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
Popular misconception is to reduce the Red Shirts simply to the point of Thaksin as the big leader, and the leaders and the protesters as simply bought off by Thaksin.
Is that just a “popular misconception”, or is it state propaganda?
Very useful for the elite in any case.