The so-called third force is a sham. Than Shwe did not and will not give any space for political manoeuver besides his own.Either you are with him or against him at present in Burma. We will never achieve democracy with him in Burma.
I found Zarni plausible. If one looks at Thailand, where so many “democracy activists” jumped on board with the military and palace, the slippery slope ends in capitulation of too much, including the very definition of representation and democracy.
To Albert Park:
‘Burma expert’ has really become a cuss word and is provocative, isn’t it?
Related to your question. Only history knows where a slippery slope ends (and of course those outside, sitting on high moral ground).
The regime tries to co-opt any group, politician, and NGO. An openly confrontational line ends up in jail. Incarceration is morally laudable but does not help anybody.
There are many groups and individuals inside Burma who are walking a very thin line. They have zero political space but they have to stay afloat and stand their ground. These people and groups have to be supported with an approach that is both, flexible and sophisticated. You decide, if this is capitulation.
Besides, I even think that Zarni’s is correct in his rant against those who applaud the steps taken by the regime (elections, roadmap) as something positive. But he greatly simplifies and motley mixes different entities (Burma experts, Burmese elite, NGOs, etc.). The underlying, anti-Westerner smack [as staunch fan of Said, he has a kind of Reverse-Orientalism = Occidentalism:) ] in many of his writings, caters to lower instincts and undermines his argumentation.
Another one of those ‘experts’ wanting flexibility to the point of snapping, the favourite P word bandied about like an old rag that has seen much better days. Pragmatic enough to paralyse any kind of opposition? Prudent to the extent of full collaboration? Thanks, but no thanks.
ASSK has tried to engage the regime from day one but to no avail. All they want is capitulation all round both inside and outside the country. As far as they are concerned there never was any alternative, and they must still have it their way no matter what. The entire Burmese nation and the international community can go hang.
We shall soon see what ASSK is made of after a steep learning curve. They will fall like a house of cards the moment you’ve got the force (the Tatmadaw rank and file) with you, Daw Suu. Reclaim the army for your people. Go girl, go.
Suzie Wong #2 :
re. “the Thai military said that it’s alright to discuss about the Thai monarchy issue from an intellectual perspective.”
How do they define “intellectual” ?
Where / what are the boundaries ? Ji Ungkaporn could surely be classed as an “intellectual” – however much one may disagree with him – but nonetheless felt he had to flee the country.
[…] two foreign journalists killed during the anti-government protests earlier this year. The Italian was gunned down during the military crackdown on the protest site on May 19. The circumstances of his deaths are officially still unknown yet and […]
No idea really self-proclaimed Burma expert, but based on your first sentence, does it involve capitulating to a corrupt military regime? Where’s that slippery slope end?
So much for the third force, at least for now. The results must have been a big disappointment for Aung Si’s parents. My commiserations although I can’t say it was a surprise. Their success would have been. All they managed was to play the walk on parts under the skilful direction of the maestro Than Shwe in a major pet production.
Dynastic political aspirations aside, we are none the wiser about what Aung Si’s parents and their party really had to offer except take on the mantle of democracy like everyone else, including the USDP sans the term democracy in its name. Besides U Nu’s track record is rather tainted by having presided over the slippery slope to military dictatorship and by his failed attempts at returning to power. Also for the time being politics as a career ambition is a lost cause for both those who are past their sell by dates and the younger generation unless they see a promising future with the regime party as in the days of BSPP one party rule under Ne Win.
A stark indication that real democratic space continues to evade us in Burma but hardly a rude awakening. Better luck next time provided it’s not déj├а vu.
Benjamin Zawacki drives the message home, with a realistic appraisal based on facts on the ground plus the regime’s inimitable track record, about false dawns and the need for continued vigilance. Excellent.
Zarni should not attack those who try to support and find pragmatic ways to get something done and moving in Burma.
After 22 years of direct military rule, the regime is in a VERY stable position. Why?
1) ‘Min’ Than Shwe could consolidate his absolute power position politically and economically (the next top military guy will do the same)
2) Western sanctions were conducive to this stabilization; China, natural resources, and geopolitics contributed their part
3) The opposition is paralyzed (whole generations of opposition leaders are in jail; the outside opposition has an incredibly clueless, UNDEMOCRATIC NCGUB-‘leadership’ that kept other opposition groups and their best brains at bay and watched jealously over donor money).
4) Aung San Suu Kyi is a Gandhian, the moral backbone of the opposition; she is NOT a politician who tries to outsmart the unsophisticated but vicious military (Why the hell the talk about ‘Panglong 2’ now?)
So, what to do? Revolution, militant resistance? Without the consent of pacifistic Aung San Suu Kyi? A radical stance and “my blood is red” cries are very popular among OUTSIDE opposition groups. Would people like Zarni be ready to fight and risk their lives? Of course not.
Is there is any alternative to a flexible and pragmatic approach after lost 22 years of democratic struggle? Name it- quickly!
Nicholas/Andrew, i hope you publish this slightly off topics comment, but as a IT guy i’m really mad as hell at the moment.
Please join the boycott of Amazon. Yesterday they closed the wikileaks webservers. They had no legal reason for this because all government papers are not copyrighted and despite the hate speak of right wing politicans no person is put in danger (they are all covered by diplomatic immunity and other names were removed).
This is pure censorship without legal laws and Amazons cowardly complaisant helping is just an attack against freedom of speech and information. A company who is one of the worlds largest seller of Books should respect freedom more then this.
Please do not buy anything from Amazon and spread the word among your friends, colleagues and family members.
There is a nice book – pretty sure also available in every other bookstores – it’s called “Hitler’s Willing Executioners” and describes how a whole society can become guilty. As a german i can recommend this book.
[…] two foreign journalists killed during the anti-government protests earlier this year. The Italian was gunned down during the military crackdown on the protest site on May 19. The circumstances of his deaths are officially still unknown yet and […]
Maybe I am too cynical, but I disagree with you on the deniability issue. Perhaps in anther country, but those in power in Thailand have a way of being able to deny anything and everything, despite evidence or solid proof to the contrary, and they do not seem to experience any cognative dissonance while doing so either.
From today’s Bangkok Post: “PM Rebuts Charges. Prime Minister Abhisit says the US did not pressure him over the Viktor Bout affair, refuting US embassy cables printed by Wikileaks… Acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said the Thai and US governments would deny the authenticity of the documents on Viktor Bout released by WikiLeaks.”
I suppose it’s all just an elaborate scheme orchestrated by a very resentful Australian to besmerch our PM.
The interview with Aung Si was good, but too short in relation to Zawacki’s apocalyptic narrative. I was left wondering what Aung Si thinks of both the concept and practice of human rights implementation in Burma.
I agree that we should discuss about the Thai monarchy and the Thai military. They are the key institutions and the main actors, I don’t think it’s possible to avoid the issues. Also, the Thai military said that it’s alright to discuss about the Thai monarchy issue from an intellectual perspective. I guess they are open to reform as well, don’t you think?
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Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
Marc Askew #3 :
it has not gone unnoticed – in Lao PDR and Isaarn – that the Thai military have been beaten to a stalemate in Pattani.
Burma votes 2010 – Episode 4
The so-called third force is a sham. Than Shwe did not and will not give any space for political manoeuver besides his own.Either you are with him or against him at present in Burma. We will never achieve democracy with him in Burma.
Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
Exactly right, Chris Beale.
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
I found Zarni plausible. If one looks at Thailand, where so many “democracy activists” jumped on board with the military and palace, the slippery slope ends in capitulation of too much, including the very definition of representation and democracy.
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
To Albert Park:
‘Burma expert’ has really become a cuss word and is provocative, isn’t it?
Related to your question. Only history knows where a slippery slope ends (and of course those outside, sitting on high moral ground).
The regime tries to co-opt any group, politician, and NGO. An openly confrontational line ends up in jail. Incarceration is morally laudable but does not help anybody.
There are many groups and individuals inside Burma who are walking a very thin line. They have zero political space but they have to stay afloat and stand their ground. These people and groups have to be supported with an approach that is both, flexible and sophisticated. You decide, if this is capitulation.
Besides, I even think that Zarni’s is correct in his rant against those who applaud the steps taken by the regime (elections, roadmap) as something positive. But he greatly simplifies and motley mixes different entities (Burma experts, Burmese elite, NGOs, etc.). The underlying, anti-Westerner smack [as staunch fan of Said, he has a kind of Reverse-Orientalism = Occidentalism:) ] in many of his writings, caters to lower instincts and undermines his argumentation.
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
Another one of those ‘experts’ wanting flexibility to the point of snapping, the favourite P word bandied about like an old rag that has seen much better days. Pragmatic enough to paralyse any kind of opposition? Prudent to the extent of full collaboration? Thanks, but no thanks.
ASSK has tried to engage the regime from day one but to no avail. All they want is capitulation all round both inside and outside the country. As far as they are concerned there never was any alternative, and they must still have it their way no matter what. The entire Burmese nation and the international community can go hang.
We shall soon see what ASSK is made of after a steep learning curve. They will fall like a house of cards the moment you’ve got the force (the Tatmadaw rank and file) with you, Daw Suu. Reclaim the army for your people. Go girl, go.
Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
Suzie Wong #2 :
re. “the Thai military said that it’s alright to discuss about the Thai monarchy issue from an intellectual perspective.”
How do they define “intellectual” ?
Where / what are the boundaries ? Ji Ungkaporn could surely be classed as an “intellectual” – however much one may disagree with him – but nonetheless felt he had to flee the country.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
anon #68 :
“the Skytrain is raining bullets”. True, at least re. the temple shootings.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
[…] two foreign journalists killed during the anti-government protests earlier this year. The Italian was gunned down during the military crackdown on the protest site on May 19. The circumstances of his deaths are officially still unknown yet and […]
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
No idea really self-proclaimed Burma expert, but based on your first sentence, does it involve capitulating to a corrupt military regime? Where’s that slippery slope end?
Burma votes 2010 – Episode 4
So much for the third force, at least for now. The results must have been a big disappointment for Aung Si’s parents. My commiserations although I can’t say it was a surprise. Their success would have been. All they managed was to play the walk on parts under the skilful direction of the maestro Than Shwe in a major pet production.
Dynastic political aspirations aside, we are none the wiser about what Aung Si’s parents and their party really had to offer except take on the mantle of democracy like everyone else, including the USDP sans the term democracy in its name. Besides U Nu’s track record is rather tainted by having presided over the slippery slope to military dictatorship and by his failed attempts at returning to power. Also for the time being politics as a career ambition is a lost cause for both those who are past their sell by dates and the younger generation unless they see a promising future with the regime party as in the days of BSPP one party rule under Ne Win.
A stark indication that real democratic space continues to evade us in Burma but hardly a rude awakening. Better luck next time provided it’s not déj├а vu.
Benjamin Zawacki drives the message home, with a realistic appraisal based on facts on the ground plus the regime’s inimitable track record, about false dawns and the need for continued vigilance. Excellent.
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
Zarni should not attack those who try to support and find pragmatic ways to get something done and moving in Burma.
After 22 years of direct military rule, the regime is in a VERY stable position. Why?
1) ‘Min’ Than Shwe could consolidate his absolute power position politically and economically (the next top military guy will do the same)
2) Western sanctions were conducive to this stabilization; China, natural resources, and geopolitics contributed their part
3) The opposition is paralyzed (whole generations of opposition leaders are in jail; the outside opposition has an incredibly clueless, UNDEMOCRATIC NCGUB-‘leadership’ that kept other opposition groups and their best brains at bay and watched jealously over donor money).
4) Aung San Suu Kyi is a Gandhian, the moral backbone of the opposition; she is NOT a politician who tries to outsmart the unsophisticated but vicious military (Why the hell the talk about ‘Panglong 2’ now?)
So, what to do? Revolution, militant resistance? Without the consent of pacifistic Aung San Suu Kyi? A radical stance and “my blood is red” cries are very popular among OUTSIDE opposition groups. Would people like Zarni be ready to fight and risk their lives? Of course not.
Is there is any alternative to a flexible and pragmatic approach after lost 22 years of democratic struggle? Name it- quickly!
Leaking evidence of violence and machinations in Thailand
Nicholas/Andrew, i hope you publish this slightly off topics comment, but as a IT guy i’m really mad as hell at the moment.
Please join the boycott of Amazon. Yesterday they closed the wikileaks webservers. They had no legal reason for this because all government papers are not copyrighted and despite the hate speak of right wing politicans no person is put in danger (they are all covered by diplomatic immunity and other names were removed).
This is pure censorship without legal laws and Amazons cowardly complaisant helping is just an attack against freedom of speech and information. A company who is one of the worlds largest seller of Books should respect freedom more then this.
Please do not buy anything from Amazon and spread the word among your friends, colleagues and family members.
There is a nice book – pretty sure also available in every other bookstores – it’s called “Hitler’s Willing Executioners” and describes how a whole society can become guilty. As a german i can recommend this book.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
[…] two foreign journalists killed during the anti-government protests earlier this year. The Italian was gunned down during the military crackdown on the protest site on May 19. The circumstances of his deaths are officially still unknown yet and […]
Burma votes 2010 – Episode 4
Thanks for producing this series Nich (and everyone else involved). Your effort is well appreciated.
Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
Well, King Prajadipok is mentioned on the cover….
Leaking evidence of violence and machinations in Thailand
@bduckz #7
Maybe I am too cynical, but I disagree with you on the deniability issue. Perhaps in anther country, but those in power in Thailand have a way of being able to deny anything and everything, despite evidence or solid proof to the contrary, and they do not seem to experience any cognative dissonance while doing so either.
From today’s Bangkok Post: “PM Rebuts Charges. Prime Minister Abhisit says the US did not pressure him over the Viktor Bout affair, refuting US embassy cables printed by Wikileaks… Acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said the Thai and US governments would deny the authenticity of the documents on Viktor Bout released by WikiLeaks.”
I suppose it’s all just an elaborate scheme orchestrated by a very resentful Australian to besmerch our PM.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/209440/abhisit-denies-us-pressured-govt-in-bout-extradition
-RD
Burma votes 2010 – Episode 4
The interview with Aung Si was good, but too short in relation to Zawacki’s apocalyptic narrative. I was left wondering what Aung Si thinks of both the concept and practice of human rights implementation in Burma.
Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
Why don’t you chaps read the damn book first before attacking the blurb?
Legitimacy crisis in Thailand
I agree that we should discuss about the Thai monarchy and the Thai military. They are the key institutions and the main actors, I don’t think it’s possible to avoid the issues. Also, the Thai military said that it’s alright to discuss about the Thai monarchy issue from an intellectual perspective. I guess they are open to reform as well, don’t you think?