…the military continues to impose coup threats and be the godfather who is actually pulling all the strings behind the political scene as it is currently doing…
All ya gotta do is mention NM by name from offsite and you’re oracular. Everybody loves to see their name in lights, dim though they may be.
Prachatai has an embedded youtube of military figures above Wat Pathum during the massacre there, ostensibly taken from police headquarters. Gun shots ring out amid laughter surrounding the person with his or her finger on the camera’s trigger.
Click the YouTube logo in the lower right corner to “see it on YouTube” and you will discover that Google is taking the names of anyone so doing. “Age verification”. What’s Google doing with the names it collects? What’s Google doing with ALL the data it collects? Selling it. For sure.
will show you the youtube without having to “volunteer” your name to Google. I always hit
Ctrl-Shift-Delete
after touching anything Googlish. And just for good measure every fifteen or twenty minutes or so will viewing the web. I flush ALL data stored by my browser. Have to type more. It’s well worth it in my opinion.
First, and in case some had failed to notice, we are all for robust debate. But when comments stretch the limits of civility then please don’t be surprised when they don’t appear on New Mandala.
Second, an “answer” to my original question has been posted here. Some readers will, I expect, find it thought-provoking.
When I spoke with him on Sunday, he acknowledged leading Sunday’s “red shirt people”, which to date has generally been synonymous with the UDD.
Which to date has been asserted to be synonymous with the UDD. By Shawn Crispin, for instance.
Note my story also clearly quotes UDD supporters saying Thaksin played no role, hedged with diplomats who believe he did.
Why on earth would anyone use “diplomats” as a source for anything. They are in charge of spin… that’s what they do. Shawn Crispin seems always to report the epiphenomenon rather than the phenomenon… what “the diplomats” tell him.
I find it interesting that so little critical or academic attention has been paid to the very active behind-the-scenes negotiations and the personal demands Thaksin allegedly makes during these on-off talks. I personally don’t think any coherent analysis of the conflict can divorce what is happening in these talks with what happens on the streets.
I personally don’t think any realistic analysis can connect Thaksins’s last gasps, Newins double cross of the Democrats, and Sanan’s freelancing with what happens on the streets.
…my journalistic instinct is to remain skeptical of claims that he is now merely an innocent bystander.
Thaksin wants to use the Red shirts, Newin wants to use the Red shirts, PPT wants to use the Red shirts… above the streets, from the skywalks whence the sniper scopes are sighted, there are no innocent bystanders.
Mr. Damage: Thanks for the lecture on US politics and letting us know that the US has a monopoly on idiots.
Shawn: I echo James’s sentiments in questioning your dismissal of the role of the red shirt protesters in this movement. It’s an all too familiar theme I come across in discussing politics with the middle class here in Bangkok. The elite have written out the legitimacy of these rural people and this has been sport in Thailand for as long as Thailand has had history. Pridi Panomyang has been written out of the history textbooks because he challenged the elite, for example.
You said: “I still have a hard time reconciling the “black shirts”, Seh Daeng and Panlop Pinmanee with a pro-democracy movement.”
I don’t know who Panlop is, but these black shirts and Seh Daeng are fringe groups. Were you at the protests? The vast majority of these people were simple folks. Don’t create false equivalencies. I never viewed these red shirts as made up of disparate groups held together in some fragile alliance.
You seem to have too many “palace sources” feeding you information. You would do well to mix and mingle with the simple people at these protests. One of the greatest myths of this political situation here in Thailand is the political influence accorded Thaksin as if he is alone behind absolutely every political gesture no matter how small. I’ve heard all of this talk for a long time believe me. Thaksin this, Thaksin that. Thaksin controls the universe, the earth, the courts, everyone.
And all of these rural people can’t think for themselves and they are all bought off.
It’s a terrible misreading of this political situation. And I can assure you that Thaksin is the least of the elite’s problems right now and I have said as much to someone, who shall remain nameless, who is shall I say, close to some very important people here in Thailand. This person went on and on with this “Thaksin controls the universe” mantra.
Shawn, as a journalist, I just hope that you give these rural people the credit they deserve. I spoke with many, many of these people at the protests and I was surprised at what I heard. Surprised at their sophistication. Surprised that many had heard of or read NM and had read parts of or heard about TKNS.
One more thing Shawn. Have you spoken to any of these college students who have been protesting at Ratchaprasong recently? I’ve never heard a Thai speak about politics like these students. Unbelievable.
If you want a donation – I’ve got more of the PAD stuff, from their 2008 occupation of Government House – than I care to keep. Nasty reminders, of a bad time !
I’d be interested to know if the NLAAC also has copies of the impromptu videos that were made at the protest showing the shootings etc. Also I’d like to know if they have copies of that song “See daeng, see daeng, see daeng, daeng, daeng, daeng, daeng…” I loved it.
The videos I felt were extremely important politically as it showed these protesters as heroes and protagonists in their own unfolding story, not voiceless characters pushed to the background.
I also would like to know if the NLAAC chronicled the political art displayed at Democracy Monument immediately following the April 10th shootings.
John Francis Lee #3 :
another cause for optimism is that this protest happened without any retaliation from Bangkok residents, many of whom are undoubtedly very, very angry about the disruption to their businesses and livelihoods during the previous Ratchaprasong occupation, etc.
Reconciliation has still not reached the stage of being impossible – a credit to all Thais, I think.
Crispin has lost credibility since he is on the payroll of Asia Times which is/was funded by Sondi L. (Correct me if I am wrong Shawn. Would be interesting to hear your side of the interaction and role of S.L. in founding and funding the Asia Times.) Now that might be an interesting story.
Granted he felt slighted by Thaksin in the 2002 FEER incident and subsequent blacklisting, but he should perhaps now focus on issues to which he is not a party to if trying to represent the press rather then ASTV and their ilk.
That said his reports on the current Thai situation often obliterate the line between journalism and propaganda.
I did however like his and Nich’s meetings with the PM on the targeting of journalists by both rouge ‘blackshirts’ and army snipers. How is that going? Assigned to a committee I suppose. One that will not prosecute or hold accountable anyone?
There was a recent popular Thai Movie that had two women who were friends show up for a job interview at a movie set.
One in red who said she had worked in Rachasprong and the other in yellow who said she had worked in Don Muang and Savanabumbi.
The Producer (actors role) says he can’t hire either because he doesn’t want to get arrested.
Then later there is a stunt in which a car overturns and wrecks. The stuntman, hurt, crawls out of the car obviously hurt. The entire movie crew (actors) go over and to look at and determine the cost of the damage to the car completely ignoring the hurt driver.
So in popular culture (movies) the issues appear but framed in symbolic terms.
No Andrew, they were not personally abusive at all and I take umbrage that you’ve cast them as such (but have deleted them so that no-one else can read them and make their own mind up). They were bang on the money. Crispin has a case to answer and you’re letting him off the hook. He is compromised by his association with Sondhi L and he is losing credibility by his absurd comments that this is only an intra-elite conflict. And I think, as you’ve cast aspersion on my comment, you need to allow this response to go up so that my right to reply is acknowledged.
WLH #4 re:
“Also the patron saint of men who dream of having a hundred minor wives and three hundred children. ”
ONLY 100 mia noi ??
In my opinion – a good example of admirable Royal restraint.
Especially compared to General Sarit, who reportedly had 771 minor wives, according to a Thai academic who studied this !!!
The research was published about a decade ago in both Bangkok Post and The Nation – so my memory is fading of this : perhaps Sarit had ONLY 171 mia noi.
At any rate – considerably more than Chulalongkorn, but then hard-drinking generals such as Sarit are not known for the karmic calm of kings.
Perhaps Ralph Kramden – who keeps Thai press clippings better than I do – could enlighten us on this ?
Hla Oo should stick to his memoirs and drop his pretensions to ‘historical analysis’ for which he is frankly ill-equipped. Picking his way through a choice book or two and coming up with a rambling rant can hardly pass for one, especially when he has set out in aid of an inept Anti-Aung San & Daughter Campaign.
He has the nerve to call the national liberation struggle from colonialism a mistake to be blamed on stupid left wing extreme nationalists when his own indelible brand of militarist chauvinism raises its ugly head on a regular basis.
Understandably he finds it convenient to suck up to his adoptive country Australia whose history is rather different from say the US despite their common heritage of being British colonies. Americans kicked the Brits out whilst Australia had its own reasons for not doing so. The arch imperialist Churchill would have approved of Hla Oo, just a shame the likes of him did not enjoy the support of the Burmese nation in the end. Evidently not all Aussies are as ‘smart’ as Hla Oo would wish either.
It reflects more on the journey Hla Oo has made than it does on the history of Burma.
Just to complicate the matter even more. Denmark is widely considered to be part of Scandinavia, but the Scandinavian Peninsula only consists of Sweden and Norway 😀
Shawn: I did not have a conversation with you on Sunday. I am talking about the conversation that we had 2 weeks ago at the Emporium. During this conversation Sean specifically told you that he was no longer the spokesman for the UDD. You made a joking comment about not having anybody to go to for information. Sean did not “confess” that it was a mistake for the UDD to use armed groups. He plainly stated that it was a mistake for unknown people to use violence.
You seem to have a problem differentiating between actual members of the UDD and Red Shirt supporters. Sombat is not a member of the UDD. He leads his own group called Red Sunday Group. You assume that everybody who wears a red shirt must be a member of the UDD. Your assumptions are clearly wrong. Is Red Siam a UDD group or a Red Shirt supporting group?
My comment above is quite clear. I was referring to a conversation 2 weeks ago. Don’t make up a story about yourself and I having a conversation this past weekend. Also, don’t ignore the fact that you purposefully twisted Sean’s words to fit your own theories or should I say the royalist/government line?
The “propaganda” flier you talk about was not written by Sean. It’s hardly propaganda as it states facts and not conjecture like your article. Here is a link to the Facebook page it is posted at http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=153517854670468
I find it ironic that you mention “propaganda”, considering that you work for Sondhi Limthongkul, the owner of Asia Times online and Thailand’s very own Rupert Murdoch. One has to wonder where all of your palace connections come from?
Interesting point of view, however, you seems be focusing your argument based solely on personality level and not so much on the structural level. The fight between different group of elite might be correct in one dimension but I also believe that this conflict is much more than 2 group of elite fighting for power. In my opinion, its a crash between ideology and the emergence of new social group that might be similar to the raise of the Yeomen in Britain in the 17th century who are demanding for structural and cultural change. If you want to look at the example of the crash between the elites actually the May 1992 crash is a more accurate version of your hypothesis. Today you blame Thaksin for what he has become, but in the end, the 1997 constitution ought to create someone like him anyway and that someone can be anyone that intended to go against the establishment.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
Cutting to the chase :
All ya gotta do is mention NM by name from offsite and you’re oracular. Everybody loves to see their name in lights, dim though they may be.
Google and Thailand’s lese majeste law
Prachatai has an embedded youtube of military figures above Wat Pathum during the massacre there, ostensibly taken from police headquarters. Gun shots ring out amid laughter surrounding the person with his or her finger on the camera’s trigger.
Click the YouTube logo in the lower right corner to “see it on YouTube” and you will discover that Google is taking the names of anyone so doing. “Age verification”. What’s Google doing with the names it collects? What’s Google doing with ALL the data it collects? Selling it. For sure.
Clicking
http://www.youtube.com/v/KwPRAMoexBM
will show you the youtube without having to “volunteer” your name to Google. I always hit
Ctrl-Shift-Delete
after touching anything Googlish. And just for good measure every fifteen or twenty minutes or so will viewing the web. I flush ALL data stored by my browser. Have to type more. It’s well worth it in my opinion.
Colourful Thai political ephemera
chris beale -2
I’m wondering how you acquired so much of those items?
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
Thanks for all of these comments:
First, and in case some had failed to notice, we are all for robust debate. But when comments stretch the limits of civility then please don’t be surprised when they don’t appear on New Mandala.
Second, an “answer” to my original question has been posted here. Some readers will, I expect, find it thought-provoking.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Colourful Thai political ephemera
Cool.I can’t find it completely both yellow and red shirts in Thailand. It’s kind of interesting and also valuable.
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
Which to date has been asserted to be synonymous with the UDD. By Shawn Crispin, for instance.
Why on earth would anyone use “diplomats” as a source for anything. They are in charge of spin… that’s what they do. Shawn Crispin seems always to report the epiphenomenon rather than the phenomenon… what “the diplomats” tell him.
I personally don’t think any realistic analysis can connect Thaksins’s last gasps, Newins double cross of the Democrats, and Sanan’s freelancing with what happens on the streets.
Thaksin wants to use the Red shirts, Newin wants to use the Red shirts, PPT wants to use the Red shirts… above the streets, from the skywalks whence the sniper scopes are sighted, there are no innocent bystanders.
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
Mr. Damage: Thanks for the lecture on US politics and letting us know that the US has a monopoly on idiots.
Shawn: I echo James’s sentiments in questioning your dismissal of the role of the red shirt protesters in this movement. It’s an all too familiar theme I come across in discussing politics with the middle class here in Bangkok. The elite have written out the legitimacy of these rural people and this has been sport in Thailand for as long as Thailand has had history. Pridi Panomyang has been written out of the history textbooks because he challenged the elite, for example.
You said: “I still have a hard time reconciling the “black shirts”, Seh Daeng and Panlop Pinmanee with a pro-democracy movement.”
I don’t know who Panlop is, but these black shirts and Seh Daeng are fringe groups. Were you at the protests? The vast majority of these people were simple folks. Don’t create false equivalencies. I never viewed these red shirts as made up of disparate groups held together in some fragile alliance.
You seem to have too many “palace sources” feeding you information. You would do well to mix and mingle with the simple people at these protests. One of the greatest myths of this political situation here in Thailand is the political influence accorded Thaksin as if he is alone behind absolutely every political gesture no matter how small. I’ve heard all of this talk for a long time believe me. Thaksin this, Thaksin that. Thaksin controls the universe, the earth, the courts, everyone.
And all of these rural people can’t think for themselves and they are all bought off.
It’s a terrible misreading of this political situation. And I can assure you that Thaksin is the least of the elite’s problems right now and I have said as much to someone, who shall remain nameless, who is shall I say, close to some very important people here in Thailand. This person went on and on with this “Thaksin controls the universe” mantra.
Shawn, as a journalist, I just hope that you give these rural people the credit they deserve. I spoke with many, many of these people at the protests and I was surprised at what I heard. Surprised at their sophistication. Surprised that many had heard of or read NM and had read parts of or heard about TKNS.
One more thing Shawn. Have you spoken to any of these college students who have been protesting at Ratchaprasong recently? I’ve never heard a Thai speak about politics like these students. Unbelievable.
Colourful Thai political ephemera
If you want a donation – I’ve got more of the PAD stuff, from their 2008 occupation of Government House – than I care to keep. Nasty reminders, of a bad time !
The power of art and symbols against authoritarianism
Let us know if you decide to share the wealth.
Colourful Thai political ephemera
I’d be interested to know if the NLAAC also has copies of the impromptu videos that were made at the protest showing the shootings etc. Also I’d like to know if they have copies of that song “See daeng, see daeng, see daeng, daeng, daeng, daeng, daeng…” I loved it.
The videos I felt were extremely important politically as it showed these protesters as heroes and protagonists in their own unfolding story, not voiceless characters pushed to the background.
I also would like to know if the NLAAC chronicled the political art displayed at Democracy Monument immediately following the April 10th shootings.
Scenes from red Sunday
John Francis Lee #3 :
another cause for optimism is that this protest happened without any retaliation from Bangkok residents, many of whom are undoubtedly very, very angry about the disruption to their businesses and livelihoods during the previous Ratchaprasong occupation, etc.
Reconciliation has still not reached the stage of being impossible – a credit to all Thais, I think.
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
Crispin has lost credibility since he is on the payroll of Asia Times which is/was funded by Sondi L. (Correct me if I am wrong Shawn. Would be interesting to hear your side of the interaction and role of S.L. in founding and funding the Asia Times.) Now that might be an interesting story.
Granted he felt slighted by Thaksin in the 2002 FEER incident and subsequent blacklisting, but he should perhaps now focus on issues to which he is not a party to if trying to represent the press rather then ASTV and their ilk.
That said his reports on the current Thai situation often obliterate the line between journalism and propaganda.
I did however like his and Nich’s meetings with the PM on the targeting of journalists by both rouge ‘blackshirts’ and army snipers. How is that going? Assigned to a committee I suppose. One that will not prosecute or hold accountable anyone?
The power of art and symbols against authoritarianism
There was a recent popular Thai Movie that had two women who were friends show up for a job interview at a movie set.
One in red who said she had worked in Rachasprong and the other in yellow who said she had worked in Don Muang and Savanabumbi.
The Producer (actors role) says he can’t hire either because he doesn’t want to get arrested.
Then later there is a stunt in which a car overturns and wrecks. The stuntman, hurt, crawls out of the car obviously hurt. The entire movie crew (actors) go over and to look at and determine the cost of the damage to the car completely ignoring the hurt driver.
So in popular culture (movies) the issues appear but framed in symbolic terms.
Don’t remember the movie title however.
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
No Andrew, they were not personally abusive at all and I take umbrage that you’ve cast them as such (but have deleted them so that no-one else can read them and make their own mind up). They were bang on the money. Crispin has a case to answer and you’re letting him off the hook. He is compromised by his association with Sondhi L and he is losing credibility by his absurd comments that this is only an intra-elite conflict. And I think, as you’ve cast aspersion on my comment, you need to allow this response to go up so that my right to reply is acknowledged.
Sulak on Buddhism and the red shirts
WLH #4 re:
“Also the patron saint of men who dream of having a hundred minor wives and three hundred children. ”
ONLY 100 mia noi ??
In my opinion – a good example of admirable Royal restraint.
Especially compared to General Sarit, who reportedly had 771 minor wives, according to a Thai academic who studied this !!!
The research was published about a decade ago in both Bangkok Post and The Nation – so my memory is fading of this : perhaps Sarit had ONLY 171 mia noi.
At any rate – considerably more than Chulalongkorn, but then hard-drinking generals such as Sarit are not known for the karmic calm of kings.
Perhaps Ralph Kramden – who keeps Thai press clippings better than I do – could enlighten us on this ?
Burma in Limbo, Part 3
Hla Oo should stick to his memoirs and drop his pretensions to ‘historical analysis’ for which he is frankly ill-equipped. Picking his way through a choice book or two and coming up with a rambling rant can hardly pass for one, especially when he has set out in aid of an inept Anti-Aung San & Daughter Campaign.
He has the nerve to call the national liberation struggle from colonialism a mistake to be blamed on stupid left wing extreme nationalists when his own indelible brand of militarist chauvinism raises its ugly head on a regular basis.
Understandably he finds it convenient to suck up to his adoptive country Australia whose history is rather different from say the US despite their common heritage of being British colonies. Americans kicked the Brits out whilst Australia had its own reasons for not doing so. The arch imperialist Churchill would have approved of Hla Oo, just a shame the likes of him did not enjoy the support of the Burmese nation in the end. Evidently not all Aussies are as ‘smart’ as Hla Oo would wish either.
It reflects more on the journey Hla Oo has made than it does on the history of Burma.
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
I wrote quite a lengthy post attacking Crispin – why wasn’t it published?
It raised several issues pertinent to this debate and questioned, quite rightly, Crispin’s credibility.
While I wouldn’t call this censorship, it does seem a bit odd.
[Try to reframe your comments in less personally abusive terms. Andrew Walker]
Saying the unsayable about Thailand’s monarchy
What is Scandinavia?
Just to complicate the matter even more. Denmark is widely considered to be part of Scandinavia, but the Scandinavian Peninsula only consists of Sweden and Norway 😀
Looking forward to reading this book!
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
Shawn: I did not have a conversation with you on Sunday. I am talking about the conversation that we had 2 weeks ago at the Emporium. During this conversation Sean specifically told you that he was no longer the spokesman for the UDD. You made a joking comment about not having anybody to go to for information. Sean did not “confess” that it was a mistake for the UDD to use armed groups. He plainly stated that it was a mistake for unknown people to use violence.
You seem to have a problem differentiating between actual members of the UDD and Red Shirt supporters. Sombat is not a member of the UDD. He leads his own group called Red Sunday Group. You assume that everybody who wears a red shirt must be a member of the UDD. Your assumptions are clearly wrong. Is Red Siam a UDD group or a Red Shirt supporting group?
My comment above is quite clear. I was referring to a conversation 2 weeks ago. Don’t make up a story about yourself and I having a conversation this past weekend. Also, don’t ignore the fact that you purposefully twisted Sean’s words to fit your own theories or should I say the royalist/government line?
The “propaganda” flier you talk about was not written by Sean. It’s hardly propaganda as it states facts and not conjecture like your article. Here is a link to the Facebook page it is posted at http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=153517854670468
I find it ironic that you mention “propaganda”, considering that you work for Sondhi Limthongkul, the owner of Asia Times online and Thailand’s very own Rupert Murdoch. One has to wonder where all of your palace connections come from?
Thai elections in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, or 2018, or ….
Crispin – 28
Interesting point of view, however, you seems be focusing your argument based solely on personality level and not so much on the structural level. The fight between different group of elite might be correct in one dimension but I also believe that this conflict is much more than 2 group of elite fighting for power. In my opinion, its a crash between ideology and the emergence of new social group that might be similar to the raise of the Yeomen in Britain in the 17th century who are demanding for structural and cultural change. If you want to look at the example of the crash between the elites actually the May 1992 crash is a more accurate version of your hypothesis. Today you blame Thaksin for what he has become, but in the end, the 1997 constitution ought to create someone like him anyway and that someone can be anyone that intended to go against the establishment.