“Do us all a favor when the next round of violent protests appear: Tell your colleagues that soldiers with weapons are dangerous.” Well that’s certainly true for Thai soldiers under orders to shoot to kill.
Nai Nich,
Your comment in the ‘Thailand on the Verge’ Apr 21, 2010, that Thaksin was also a yellow shirt too was incorrect. We Thai were celebrating the 60th year of HM Bhumibhol’s Coronation. Yellow shirts were in short supply! The banner message you read out in Thai might have triggered the 2006’s coup in the plotters’ minds.
They thought that might be coup de grace for Thaksin who was going thru’ hell. A comforting message from his followers, indeed.
Interesting post, but it really begs the question as to why many of those same good and capable people started jumping off the Thaksin band wagon soon enough.
However, re the good man/ bad man question, I agree that most people seem to be ignoring or forgetting a basic philosophical axiom i.e that ‘everything is relative – nothing is absolute’. Case in point: If one assumes that Abhisit is better than the next best alternative as leader of the ruling coalition, the question more properly becomes to what degree this assumption is valid or invalid.
Of course, one could also pursue a similar line of enquiry re the current status of Thaksin’s leadership of the Red Shirt/Peua Thai Party nexus, but I think it’s fair to say that this is an issue the leadership itself does not want discussed publicly.
There must be some differences in specs. and maybe plus a list of ammo and missiles. I am sure the kickbacks. Thai military officers I came across in the Thai-Burmese border were in in the illegal logging business. No drugs cos the late Gen Bo Mya was very strict about that. He, personally, shot Karens who were drug traffickers. One shot to the leg and one to the head. The same execution for adultery.
The land dispute of 4.6 km is symbolic one. I am quite sure there more areas, along this long border, are in question.The Khmer Rouge villagers were paid to settle on those supposedly land in question.
You know, an AK 47 from China/still in grease was 500 baht in the early 80s. One has to pay about 10,000 bht for a used one along the Thai-Burmese border these days. Remember those Seh Daeng’s men attempted to sell the remaining weapons post May 19.? Their weapons were very likely from Cambodia. The Khmer Rouge still have these large stockpiles of weapons given by China during those few year of their brutal rule.
Going back to the topic. The last time I quoted Dr. Samuel Johnson’s cynic definition for patriotism of PAD and AV as ” the last refuge of the scoundrel”. Today, their good behaviour is seen as “the last refuge of mediocrity”. Khun Thaksin’s overbearing nature and greed led to his downfall. And, I begin to equate Thai democracy as a lynch mob. I witnessed the violence of the Red Shirts in the Isarn during crisis. I have to put away my 6 yellow shirts and I am armed too. This is no way to live. I avoid the red communities when I go bicycling. I am not yellow but I like their Santi Asok vegetarian food and grocery. I spent as little time at their place as possible.
Maybe timing is everything and the government doesn’t need to pull that particular rabbit out of the hat at the moment. Ah politics…it’s dark and dirty work, but I suppose someone’s gotta do it. Personally, I tend to agree with Max Webber that (I believe I am fairly accurately stating the view he put forward in his famous essay) the fundamental issue is whether political leaders are sincere.
I also note that earlier this year “ethics” (specifically a conspicuous lack thereof) became something of a buzzword in discussions on how Thaksin largely got himself in his current invidious position. Not that he could have done it without help, of course. So are there any Red Shirts at last willing to say here that yes, Thaksin did go way too far, or are you all still playing the old ‘plausible denial’ game while decrying a lack of ‘reconciliation’.
Seems to be a clear case of hypocrisy to me, one that points to Thaksin’s continuing domination of the Red Shirt movement.
The real weakness in Abhisit is when he says – repeatedly – that a general election throughout Thailand can ONLY take place when
there is peace and stability in the country (however he deigns to define that).
In fact, the purpose of elections has often been to resolve violent conflict, and thwart revolutionary overthrow – eg. South Africa’s transition to Mandela.
It was either Bismarck – or Disraeli, or both – wh0 once said about elections : they are the greatest conservative device available.
Abhisit – despite PPE@Oxford – seems never to have learned this lesson.
Thanks for your comments and I respect your point of view – if indeed this is your point of view – without necessarily agreeing.
However, may I remind you that my comments were in relation to the speculative statement with which I began the above post regarding the degree of support Thaksin retains among the Red Shirts and that, so far, neither you or anyone else has responded directly to that – and I wonder why that is, when people in this forum mostly seem to have very definite opinions on the state of politics in Thailand.
Sorry, it was government order no. 66/23 not 16/23.
Although the amnesty is the right thing to do but the original proposal by arjarn Prasert Tubsoontorn suppose to be divided into 3 phases, 1st is the save the intellect and students from the CPT, 2nd is the return democracy to the people by mean of transferring back power from the establishment back to the people, and 3rd is to reform the law and political system. All of these is to be done in a non-violence peaceful manner by the Revolutionary Council which suppose to be represent by a people from many levels of society such as farmers, business people, and the government. Sadly instead of giving corporation, the Thai government instead arrest the members of the revolutionary council and murdered many people involved in the process. Arjarn Prasert was sent to jail and die a few months after release due to damaged done when he was jailed. If the Revolutionary Council was successful then, Thailand might not be what it is today how unfortunate.
My thought on Trostky’s theory about international revolution is that Trostky’s knew that if the centralized economic planning is to go face to face liberal market capitalism, there’s no way the central planning market came out as the winner so in order for Marxist’s socialism to survive in long run, the whole world must turn socialist.
Naganadeeleg #103 :
Yes – we should honour and remember Da Torpedo, for having the courage of her convictions and the inhumane injustice of her brutal, barbarian sentence.
But she should also apologise for what has deeply, harshly offended and hurt the feelings of huge numbers of Thais.
It has often been noted that Thai culture is a strongly-feeling oriented culture. She knows this. An apology would help the country towards genuine reconciliation.
Should one not read the Federalists to get cured from the fantasy that a political system can only work if the individual actors are “good”? And what do we need a constitution for when the “goodness” of participants already secures a well-functioning political system?
Wondering #8 :
“Also, it is important to recognise that many of the so-called ‘drug dealers’ killed on his orders were not actually involved with drugs at all. Many were political opponents of the present government in Lao PDR. Probably hundreds of them were killed during Thaksin’s reign, especially in the Thai provinces bordering Laos. They were supported and even encouraged to challenge the Lao government militarily during the late 1970s and in the 1980s, but when Thailand decided to improve their relations with Laos, they became obstacles, and so were murdered.”
Evidence please ??!!
There’s no let up, is there? Your smear campaign attacking a dead man, Aung San, with a spurious link to Ne Win and the current outfit only appeals to a foreign audience. And when socialism is a four letter word in today’s prevailing ideology, you find it very convenient to hit it while it’s down.
So in your learned opinion and flawless logic, the Americans shouldn’t have kicked the Brits out either. The Brits are oh so civilised whilst we remain stupid barbarians. We should all have seen the light of civilisation a long time ago, shouldn’t we? We ain’t worthy, O Enlightened One.
Your clever way of pushing people towards a shambolic sham of an election in a shameless travesty of a democratic process is all too transparent. You still might get a medal and a fat bonus from your SPDC handlers.
BDC: Got the news inside Burma that General Than Shwe reportedly resigned from his military post so as to serve as the PRESIDENT. (Need to be confirmed.)
“It doesn’t really matter who win this coming November 7 elections there will be an elected parliament and an elected government which is in a way much better than some trigger-happy junta with guns.”?? you believe in gnoms?
Tench misses his own point. Laws that prevent freedom of speech anywhere are the problem. And his follow-up mentioning that Ji Ungpakorn can’t enter Thailand is wrong. He can. He’d most likely go to jail to face lese majeste charges and more.
SEATO had 3 NATO members USA,UK & France; 2 British Imperial creations Australia & NZ and only 2 South East Asian Nations Philippines & Thailand.
Indonesia was a major member of the Non-aligned movement and hosted its Bandung conference in 1955 attended by India, China (Red) , Cambodia etc etc.
As for Thailand looking out for itself, that should read the rich ruling elite. If Thailand had remained non-aligned it is difficult to imagine how the catastrophe the USA launched upon Laos, Vietnam & Cambodia and a generation of US youth could have been perpetrated.
Till the very arrival of Second World War the mainstream Burmese political wisdom then was to gradually achieve Burmese self rule within the British Commonwealth by the peaceful, non-revolutionary means available within the legal and constitutional framework already established by the civilized British.
But Aung San and his old boy network of dimwitted leftwing extreme nationalists refused to accept that wisdom and invited the Fascist Japanese into Burma and started a foolish revolution which stuffed up Burma so bad that we have had a devastating civil war for last 60 years while being brutally ruled by successive military dictators.
History is now almost repeating again. Buckling under the devastating pressure of the whole civilized world, except communist China and Russia, the Burmese generals are now suddenly letting the Burmese people choose their own future within their so-called discipline-flourishing democracy.
It doesn’t really matter who win this coming November 7 elections there will be an elected parliament and an elected government which is in a way much better than some trigger-happy junta with guns.
Who knows if things progress well Burma could even end up later with a kind of decent democracy like in Indonesia?
If a wise historian like Steinberg and a brave Burmese Journalist like Aung Htut could see it why don’t we see it?
If I may add a fourth point:
Lower ranking officers may give serious thought to overthrowing the junta with both international and domestic support assured, opening the door to genuine negotiations with all concerned.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Well put Nganadeeleg. I notice that Political Prisoners in Thailand has a post on the anniversary and a note from Ji Ungpakorn about a recent visit by an activist to her in prison: http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/anniversary-of-da-torpedos-sentencing/
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
“Do us all a favor when the next round of violent protests appear: Tell your colleagues that soldiers with weapons are dangerous.” Well that’s certainly true for Thai soldiers under orders to shoot to kill.
Royal rain-making in the news
Nai Nich,
Your comment in the ‘Thailand on the Verge’ Apr 21, 2010, that Thaksin was also a yellow shirt too was incorrect. We Thai were celebrating the 60th year of HM Bhumibhol’s Coronation. Yellow shirts were in short supply! The banner message you read out in Thai might have triggered the 2006’s coup in the plotters’ minds.
They thought that might be coup de grace for Thaksin who was going thru’ hell. A comforting message from his followers, indeed.
Thai style reconciliation a recipe for further conflict
Cool Hand,
Yes it is my point of view.
I can’t speak for or speculate on the degree of support Thaksin commands among the redshirts. I really don’t know.
However, there is a mechanism for ascertaining the degree of support that politicians have.
It’s called an election.
That would be one way to measure his support
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
Nobody – 13
Interesting post, but it really begs the question as to why many of those same good and capable people started jumping off the Thaksin band wagon soon enough.
However, re the good man/ bad man question, I agree that most people seem to be ignoring or forgetting a basic philosophical axiom i.e that ‘everything is relative – nothing is absolute’. Case in point: If one assumes that Abhisit is better than the next best alternative as leader of the ruling coalition, the question more properly becomes to what degree this assumption is valid or invalid.
Of course, one could also pursue a similar line of enquiry re the current status of Thaksin’s leadership of the Red Shirt/Peua Thai Party nexus, but I think it’s fair to say that this is an issue the leadership itself does not want discussed publicly.
Abhisit’s territorial rite
Tarrin 30
There must be some differences in specs. and maybe plus a list of ammo and missiles. I am sure the kickbacks. Thai military officers I came across in the Thai-Burmese border were in in the illegal logging business. No drugs cos the late Gen Bo Mya was very strict about that. He, personally, shot Karens who were drug traffickers. One shot to the leg and one to the head. The same execution for adultery.
The land dispute of 4.6 km is symbolic one. I am quite sure there more areas, along this long border, are in question.The Khmer Rouge villagers were paid to settle on those supposedly land in question.
You know, an AK 47 from China/still in grease was 500 baht in the early 80s. One has to pay about 10,000 bht for a used one along the Thai-Burmese border these days. Remember those Seh Daeng’s men attempted to sell the remaining weapons post May 19.? Their weapons were very likely from Cambodia. The Khmer Rouge still have these large stockpiles of weapons given by China during those few year of their brutal rule.
Going back to the topic. The last time I quoted Dr. Samuel Johnson’s cynic definition for patriotism of PAD and AV as ” the last refuge of the scoundrel”. Today, their good behaviour is seen as “the last refuge of mediocrity”. Khun Thaksin’s overbearing nature and greed led to his downfall. And, I begin to equate Thai democracy as a lynch mob. I witnessed the violence of the Red Shirts in the Isarn during crisis. I have to put away my 6 yellow shirts and I am armed too. This is no way to live. I avoid the red communities when I go bicycling. I am not yellow but I like their Santi Asok vegetarian food and grocery. I spent as little time at their place as possible.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
Why is there not as much coverage here on Hiro Muramoto, a Japanese cameraman for Reuters, death – as there is for this Italian ?
More on the “strategy of tension”
Thomas Hoy – 45
Maybe timing is everything and the government doesn’t need to pull that particular rabbit out of the hat at the moment. Ah politics…it’s dark and dirty work, but I suppose someone’s gotta do it. Personally, I tend to agree with Max Webber that (I believe I am fairly accurately stating the view he put forward in his famous essay) the fundamental issue is whether political leaders are sincere.
I also note that earlier this year “ethics” (specifically a conspicuous lack thereof) became something of a buzzword in discussions on how Thaksin largely got himself in his current invidious position. Not that he could have done it without help, of course. So are there any Red Shirts at last willing to say here that yes, Thaksin did go way too far, or are you all still playing the old ‘plausible denial’ game while decrying a lack of ‘reconciliation’.
Seems to be a clear case of hypocrisy to me, one that points to Thaksin’s continuing domination of the Red Shirt movement.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
The real weakness in Abhisit is when he says – repeatedly – that a general election throughout Thailand can ONLY take place when
there is peace and stability in the country (however he deigns to define that).
In fact, the purpose of elections has often been to resolve violent conflict, and thwart revolutionary overthrow – eg. South Africa’s transition to Mandela.
It was either Bismarck – or Disraeli, or both – wh0 once said about elections : they are the greatest conservative device available.
Abhisit – despite PPE@Oxford – seems never to have learned this lesson.
Thai style reconciliation a recipe for further conflict
Thomas Hoy – 7
Thanks for your comments and I respect your point of view – if indeed this is your point of view – without necessarily agreeing.
However, may I remind you that my comments were in relation to the speculative statement with which I began the above post regarding the degree of support Thaksin retains among the Red Shirts and that, so far, neither you or anyone else has responded directly to that – and I wonder why that is, when people in this forum mostly seem to have very definite opinions on the state of politics in Thailand.
As I said, “How about those opinions?”
More on the “strategy of tension”
LesAbbey – 46
Sorry, it was government order no. 66/23 not 16/23.
Although the amnesty is the right thing to do but the original proposal by arjarn Prasert Tubsoontorn suppose to be divided into 3 phases, 1st is the save the intellect and students from the CPT, 2nd is the return democracy to the people by mean of transferring back power from the establishment back to the people, and 3rd is to reform the law and political system. All of these is to be done in a non-violence peaceful manner by the Revolutionary Council which suppose to be represent by a people from many levels of society such as farmers, business people, and the government. Sadly instead of giving corporation, the Thai government instead arrest the members of the revolutionary council and murdered many people involved in the process. Arjarn Prasert was sent to jail and die a few months after release due to damaged done when he was jailed. If the Revolutionary Council was successful then, Thailand might not be what it is today how unfortunate.
My thought on Trostky’s theory about international revolution is that Trostky’s knew that if the centralized economic planning is to go face to face liberal market capitalism, there’s no way the central planning market came out as the winner so in order for Marxist’s socialism to survive in long run, the whole world must turn socialist.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Naganadeeleg #103 :
Yes – we should honour and remember Da Torpedo, for having the courage of her convictions and the inhumane injustice of her brutal, barbarian sentence.
But she should also apologise for what has deeply, harshly offended and hurt the feelings of huge numbers of Thais.
It has often been noted that Thai culture is a strongly-feeling oriented culture. She knows this. An apology would help the country towards genuine reconciliation.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
Should one not read the Federalists to get cured from the fantasy that a political system can only work if the individual actors are “good”? And what do we need a constitution for when the “goodness” of participants already secures a well-functioning political system?
Thai style reconciliation a recipe for further conflict
Wondering #8 :
“Also, it is important to recognise that many of the so-called ‘drug dealers’ killed on his orders were not actually involved with drugs at all. Many were political opponents of the present government in Lao PDR. Probably hundreds of them were killed during Thaksin’s reign, especially in the Thai provinces bordering Laos. They were supported and even encouraged to challenge the Lao government militarily during the late 1970s and in the 1980s, but when Thailand decided to improve their relations with Laos, they became obstacles, and so were murdered.”
Evidence please ??!!
Concept + Process = ?
Hla Oo
There’s no let up, is there? Your smear campaign attacking a dead man, Aung San, with a spurious link to Ne Win and the current outfit only appeals to a foreign audience. And when socialism is a four letter word in today’s prevailing ideology, you find it very convenient to hit it while it’s down.
So in your learned opinion and flawless logic, the Americans shouldn’t have kicked the Brits out either. The Brits are oh so civilised whilst we remain stupid barbarians. We should all have seen the light of civilisation a long time ago, shouldn’t we? We ain’t worthy, O Enlightened One.
Your clever way of pushing people towards a shambolic sham of an election in a shameless travesty of a democratic process is all too transparent. You still might get a medal and a fat bonus from your SPDC handlers.
Concept + Process = ?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36544254/The-Constitutional-Crisis-in-Burma-and-the-Upcoming-Elections
http://www.scribd.com/doc/35220610/NDI-BURMA-S-2010-ELECTORAL-FRAMEWORK-FUNDAMENTALLY-UNDEMOCRATIC
BDC: Got the news inside Burma that General Than Shwe reportedly resigned from his military post so as to serve as the PRESIDENT. (Need to be confirmed.)
“It doesn’t really matter who win this coming November 7 elections there will be an elected parliament and an elected government which is in a way much better than some trigger-happy junta with guns.”?? you believe in gnoms?
“Life in a Bangkok prison”
Tench misses his own point. Laws that prevent freedom of speech anywhere are the problem. And his follow-up mentioning that Ji Ungpakorn can’t enter Thailand is wrong. He can. He’d most likely go to jail to face lese majeste charges and more.
An alternative view of the Duch verdict in Cambodia
Suzie:
SEATO had 3 NATO members USA,UK & France; 2 British Imperial creations Australia & NZ and only 2 South East Asian Nations Philippines & Thailand.
Indonesia was a major member of the Non-aligned movement and hosted its Bandung conference in 1955 attended by India, China (Red) , Cambodia etc etc.
As for Thailand looking out for itself, that should read the rich ruling elite. If Thailand had remained non-aligned it is difficult to imagine how the catastrophe the USA launched upon Laos, Vietnam & Cambodia and a generation of US youth could have been perpetrated.
Concept + Process = ?
Till the very arrival of Second World War the mainstream Burmese political wisdom then was to gradually achieve Burmese self rule within the British Commonwealth by the peaceful, non-revolutionary means available within the legal and constitutional framework already established by the civilized British.
But Aung San and his old boy network of dimwitted leftwing extreme nationalists refused to accept that wisdom and invited the Fascist Japanese into Burma and started a foolish revolution which stuffed up Burma so bad that we have had a devastating civil war for last 60 years while being brutally ruled by successive military dictators.
History is now almost repeating again. Buckling under the devastating pressure of the whole civilized world, except communist China and Russia, the Burmese generals are now suddenly letting the Burmese people choose their own future within their so-called discipline-flourishing democracy.
It doesn’t really matter who win this coming November 7 elections there will be an elected parliament and an elected government which is in a way much better than some trigger-happy junta with guns.
Who knows if things progress well Burma could even end up later with a kind of decent democracy like in Indonesia?
If a wise historian like Steinberg and a brave Burmese Journalist like Aung Htut could see it why don’t we see it?
Concept + Process = ?
jud
Very well put, thanks.
If I may add a fourth point:
Lower ranking officers may give serious thought to overthrowing the junta with both international and domestic support assured, opening the door to genuine negotiations with all concerned.