well we cannot speculate (until a whistle-blower comes forward), but recent history told us about disppearing ballot papers and people turning up to vote in BKK only to find that their names had already been used…Plus remember that the DP/and pro-DP BMA are not going to let this one slip easily to the other side – there is far too much at stake; plus, Phue Thai having control in the amaat’s front garden? no- it would never be allowed to happen, especially now. Does that make me a cynic or realist?
The above excerpt summarizes it nicely. I don’t think he would be put in jail, after all his speech resonates with how average, and not so average Thais perceive themselves. It will be a stepping stone for Thai establishment to show how benevolent and righteous they can be.
Lèse majesté is open to different interpretations and it can be used to ‘fit the purpose’. Pongpat Watchirabanchong, despite his speech looks yellower than French mustard spilled on fluffy white cushion, should be free to say whatever he wishes, and Lèse majesté, in its present form, should be discontinued. Will anything of it happen? I guess not. At least not during the H.M. King Bhumibol Adulyadej’s reign. Just wonder how does Mr Watchirabanchong feel now? As a victim, or hero, perhaps?
Well, most of it certainly could not have been written by Robert Amsterdam whose knowledge of Thailand is so deep that he told Al Jazeera that the Bank of Thailand was, in his opinion, an illegal institution that had been set up by the 2006 coup makers.
TRT/PTP theoretically and historically has a very large base in this constituency making it different from most Bangkok constituencies. On such a low turnout they should have been closer or even won. The Dem fears of a low turnout occurreed but they still prevailed and quite handsomely.
Deliberately choosing a jailed person to run can be argued to have advantaged (through name recognition and media attention) or disadvantaged a campaign (inability to campaign perosnally). It could also have shown that winning or losing wasnt important but it was just a PR exercise.
PTP choosing a candidate who didnt know anything about the constituency and who didnt even say anything about it may not have been the brightest of ideas either. The tactic though of trying to use the by-election as a referendum on the red crackdown and gambling on low turn out in a constituency where they thought they had a big base didnt work. In thsat way PTP and more so the reds lost the PR game. The gamble didnt come off even under the ideal circumstances that they got (very low turnout).
PTP will need to address tactics and strategies in Bangkok. They probably also need a new Bangkok leader and one not tainted. Another wider problem they face is that with Thaksin’s green lighting of selecting red leaders for safe constituencies for the next election that will mean removing some current MPs. This balancing act will not be easy especially with the Newin in the background and PTP MPs already split over leadership issues.
I notice Dr. Jim (C27) is off on the unsubstantiated rumours and propaganda again. I guess any election that isnt won by who he wants is going to be suspect. Of course bribing district officers to convince people to vote for a party or funding shell parties to avoid electoral requirements didnt bother him the slightest or at least we didnt see him slamming the TRT and PPP parties for such but without any of the evidnce that existed for these two cases he is off doing one again. Full on campaign mode I guess.
The exceptionally low voter turnout compared to 2007 even on a long week-end seems to support my point that neither candidate was particularly appealing to the constituents. The long week-end probably affected the Democrats more than PT as Chinese middle class voters in new housing estates that have sprawled out into these suburbs are more likely to have gone off to Pattaya and Hua Hin than the red shirt migrant workers from Isaan. On the other hand the somewhat marginalised and encroached suburban Muslim voters, who account for about 20% of the constituency probably also stayed put for lack of wherewithal and most would rather commit suicide than vote for a Thaksinista, due to the Thaksin’s brutal treatment of their fellow Muslim’s in the South. Basically a feeble effort from both parties.
Most analysis didn’t take into account the importance of Muslim factor in district 6. The mosque leadership decided all of the important issues; they voted according to what the Imam told them. They are against the U.S. because of the war in the Middle East. They consider the Democratic Party as less alliance with the U.S. Identify as being Muslim first and being Thai as secondary, the district 6 Muslim voted according to the party identification than domestic politics issue. In other words, the district 6 Muslim would vote for Democrat Party regardless who the candidate was. In short, the Red Shirts democratic movement carried no meaning for the Muslim in district 6.
I notice that the Puea Thai Party leadership is unable to understand the important of Chinese ethnic voting behavior in Bangkok. Bangkok preference always goes to a tall, handsome and highly educated Chinese ethnic candidate, e.g. the winner of the District 6 Mr. Panij, deputy PM Korn, PM Aphisit, etc. I think this is the strength of the Democrat Party.
On the contrary, the Puea Thai Party is weak in the candidate selection process. For example, today I am shocked by the announcement of Mr. Mingquan that he intends to compete for prime minister post for Puea Thai Party. My goodness, has he ever realized that no one will vote for him; his ambition will destroy the chance of Puea Thai Party’s victory.
Whatever happened to your faith in elections. Now that the Democrat Party candidate had won the Constituency 6 election, you disbelieve that the Thai had spoken?
no one has yet questioned the means of counting these votes and lack of transparency, especially given the DP’s history of dodgy counting in Bangkok and its recent historic alliance with the EC (and other stacked so-called “independents”)
Vicente: One Bangkok consituency is hardly ‘the Thai people’.
However I do hope your confidence encourages Abhisit & his minders to quickly go to the electorate to seek the legitimacy they need to allow the country to start moving forward.
PS. The only beneficiaries of the bombing I see are the military & the government they are keeping in power.
why farang keep talk about the wat belong to khmer. khmer are sneaky ppl. they want take our history and culture which is very amazing for thai. maybe they don’t have the correct information because you farang dont know. hun sen is a bustard. if u were khmer id might say i understand u because khmer dont know, but farang should just enjoy real thai and not talk about this thing. just laugh in thailand and be sanuk as a thai i wanr u dont talk about things you dont understand
I would love to have some reference but have also given up on it.
I seriously doubt the possibility of the official pardon – that would be LM – the King cannot be wrong, and therefore those executed cannot be wrong too.
But it is rumored that the King’s Mother knew that the three were sacrificed so that the case can be closed and spent execution day meditating in her fav temple. It is also rumored that the three families have recieved (unofficial) support from the palace.
Preah Viheara Temple might have at some time in the past belong to one or two of the Siam Dynasties.
But it is time for Thais to wake up to a sad truth – PVT is no longer legally or legitimately Thai territory.
Without going into history and risking LM – the truth is:
We gave it to the French Indo-Chine (some might argue under duress of imperialism) – under the auspices of one of our The Greats.
When the chance came to lodge a claim with the UN, we miss it – despite what the Thai media spinned, the truth is Thailand did not contest that claim – Thailand Elite never was interested in PVT until it is politically beneficial to do so. Remember how the border Thais reacted to the PAD rioters – they actually backed the Cambodians!
Finally, I have to be very honest though it pained me. The fact that PVT was out of Thais hands is possibly THE ONLY REASON why we still have PVT today. Why? Look at everything else in Thailand, do you notice that artistically and archeologically, everything history in Thailand that is being promoted and cared for by the state is Chakri art? Look at Ayuddhya! half of it is not the art of its era anymore – the buddhas features of that time period should be more angular, not the “nice rounded” curves so treasured by Chakri artists. If Thailand had had PVT for the last 60 years, all things historically sacred would have been demolished within and re-stored to look like Chakri artwork. Bits and pieces would have gone missing and ended up in private collections in Europe or US – private sale by we all know who. Maybe the mathematical signficance of PVT architecture might have been safe, but I wouldn’t bet on that.
Judgment day . . what was the Thai people’s verdict?
(a) If the ruling party Democrat Party is being judged for its handling of the Red party violent protests and its bloody aftermath, then clearly the verdict is NOT GUILTY, and the Thai public approved!
(b) If the Reds leaders are being judged, then clearly the verdict is GUILTY for arson, bombings and shootings committed during the Black May 2010 Reds violent rampage and Korkaew/rest of Red leaders should be kept in jail.
(c) If the opposition party Pheau Thai is being judged, then clearly this party was the loser.
(d) If Thaksin Shinawatra is being judged, the verdict is GUILTY, GUILTY AND GUILTY.
Rambling and dreary are not the terms I’d use for the first 30 or so pages on politics that I’ve read so far. It is actually a good read and if I could find an RA who could write as clearly and crisply as this, I’d be exceptionally pleased. It appears written by someone with a very reasonable knowledge of events. Yes, it leaves out the Thaksin dark side and only alludes to those aspects, but it is a report for Thaksin, so that is expected.
Any idea that the PTP had an advantage by having their candidate in jail and essentially silent seems odd to me as does the comment on them being better organizers. The fact is that the Democrat Party had everything working for them. Including CRES, the military, DSI and the vast majority of the media.
On a different aspect, I was surprised by the low quality reporting on the election on Channel 7 last night at about 7:30 – 8 PM (the only one I viewed). They tended to concentrate on exit polls when the actual count results were available. When they did show actual results, they changed substantially over a short period. No discussion. It was very amateurish.
Imagine if Yellow Shirts sent their candidate in this election, Red Shirts would win for sure! I heard many Yellow Shirts had to vote for the Democrat, even though they don’t want to.
But isn’t it illegal that Yellow Shirts’ candidate withdrawn from the election in order to help the Democrat?
At least, we now knew the real reason why Yellow Shirts decided not to participate in the election. Losing to a terrorist is severely painful indeed …
For me, this election only demonstrates the stupidity/desperation of the opposition party Peau Thai by playing on a hunch that its Red candidate Korkaew could generate a huge sympathy vote while campaigning from prison. Lossers!!!
C’mon a win is a win….either by a mile or an inch…accept it
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Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
well we cannot speculate (until a whistle-blower comes forward), but recent history told us about disppearing ballot papers and people turning up to vote in BKK only to find that their names had already been used…Plus remember that the DP/and pro-DP BMA are not going to let this one slip easily to the other side – there is far too much at stake; plus, Phue Thai having control in the amaat’s front garden? no- it would never be allowed to happen, especially now. Does that make me a cynic or realist?
The logic of lese majeste
The above excerpt summarizes it nicely. I don’t think he would be put in jail, after all his speech resonates with how average, and not so average Thais perceive themselves. It will be a stepping stone for Thai establishment to show how benevolent and righteous they can be.
Lèse majesté is open to different interpretations and it can be used to ‘fit the purpose’. Pongpat Watchirabanchong, despite his speech looks yellower than French mustard spilled on fluffy white cushion, should be free to say whatever he wishes, and Lèse majesté, in its present form, should be discontinued. Will anything of it happen? I guess not. At least not during the H.M. King Bhumibol Adulyadej’s reign. Just wonder how does Mr Watchirabanchong feel now? As a victim, or hero, perhaps?
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Well, most of it certainly could not have been written by Robert Amsterdam whose knowledge of Thailand is so deep that he told Al Jazeera that the Bank of Thailand was, in his opinion, an illegal institution that had been set up by the 2006 coup makers.
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
TRT/PTP theoretically and historically has a very large base in this constituency making it different from most Bangkok constituencies. On such a low turnout they should have been closer or even won. The Dem fears of a low turnout occurreed but they still prevailed and quite handsomely.
Deliberately choosing a jailed person to run can be argued to have advantaged (through name recognition and media attention) or disadvantaged a campaign (inability to campaign perosnally). It could also have shown that winning or losing wasnt important but it was just a PR exercise.
PTP choosing a candidate who didnt know anything about the constituency and who didnt even say anything about it may not have been the brightest of ideas either. The tactic though of trying to use the by-election as a referendum on the red crackdown and gambling on low turn out in a constituency where they thought they had a big base didnt work. In thsat way PTP and more so the reds lost the PR game. The gamble didnt come off even under the ideal circumstances that they got (very low turnout).
PTP will need to address tactics and strategies in Bangkok. They probably also need a new Bangkok leader and one not tainted. Another wider problem they face is that with Thaksin’s green lighting of selecting red leaders for safe constituencies for the next election that will mean removing some current MPs. This balancing act will not be easy especially with the Newin in the background and PTP MPs already split over leadership issues.
I notice Dr. Jim (C27) is off on the unsubstantiated rumours and propaganda again. I guess any election that isnt won by who he wants is going to be suspect. Of course bribing district officers to convince people to vote for a party or funding shell parties to avoid electoral requirements didnt bother him the slightest or at least we didnt see him slamming the TRT and PPP parties for such but without any of the evidnce that existed for these two cases he is off doing one again. Full on campaign mode I guess.
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
The exceptionally low voter turnout compared to 2007 even on a long week-end seems to support my point that neither candidate was particularly appealing to the constituents. The long week-end probably affected the Democrats more than PT as Chinese middle class voters in new housing estates that have sprawled out into these suburbs are more likely to have gone off to Pattaya and Hua Hin than the red shirt migrant workers from Isaan. On the other hand the somewhat marginalised and encroached suburban Muslim voters, who account for about 20% of the constituency probably also stayed put for lack of wherewithal and most would rather commit suicide than vote for a Thaksinista, due to the Thaksin’s brutal treatment of their fellow Muslim’s in the South. Basically a feeble effort from both parties.
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
Most analysis didn’t take into account the importance of Muslim factor in district 6. The mosque leadership decided all of the important issues; they voted according to what the Imam told them. They are against the U.S. because of the war in the Middle East. They consider the Democratic Party as less alliance with the U.S. Identify as being Muslim first and being Thai as secondary, the district 6 Muslim voted according to the party identification than domestic politics issue. In other words, the district 6 Muslim would vote for Democrat Party regardless who the candidate was. In short, the Red Shirts democratic movement carried no meaning for the Muslim in district 6.
I notice that the Puea Thai Party leadership is unable to understand the important of Chinese ethnic voting behavior in Bangkok. Bangkok preference always goes to a tall, handsome and highly educated Chinese ethnic candidate, e.g. the winner of the District 6 Mr. Panij, deputy PM Korn, PM Aphisit, etc. I think this is the strength of the Democrat Party.
On the contrary, the Puea Thai Party is weak in the candidate selection process. For example, today I am shocked by the announcement of Mr. Mingquan that he intends to compete for prime minister post for Puea Thai Party. My goodness, has he ever realized that no one will vote for him; his ambition will destroy the chance of Puea Thai Party’s victory.
The logic of lese majeste
I was going to comment on Veera’s double standards, but PPT beat me to it. See this and the specific update on Veera: http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/lese-majeste-and-double-standards/
PPT remains blocked by the CRES thought police, so use privacy software to get around it.
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
Robert S., Nganadeeleg and Jim Taylor,
Whatever happened to your faith in elections. Now that the Democrat Party candidate had won the Constituency 6 election, you disbelieve that the Thai had spoken?
What a bunch you all are . . . .
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
no one has yet questioned the means of counting these votes and lack of transparency, especially given the DP’s history of dodgy counting in Bangkok and its recent historic alliance with the EC (and other stacked so-called “independents”)
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
Vicente: One Bangkok consituency is hardly ‘the Thai people’.
However I do hope your confidence encourages Abhisit & his minders to quickly go to the electorate to seek the legitimacy they need to allow the country to start moving forward.
PS. The only beneficiaries of the bombing I see are the military & the government they are keeping in power.
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
Vicente #24
For your point (b) to be correct, shouldn’t we expect to see a significant decline in votes for PTP?
Temple of gloom
why farang keep talk about the wat belong to khmer. khmer are sneaky ppl. they want take our history and culture which is very amazing for thai. maybe they don’t have the correct information because you farang dont know. hun sen is a bustard. if u were khmer id might say i understand u because khmer dont know, but farang should just enjoy real thai and not talk about this thing. just laugh in thailand and be sanuk as a thai i wanr u dont talk about things you dont understand
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
I would love to have some reference but have also given up on it.
I seriously doubt the possibility of the official pardon – that would be LM – the King cannot be wrong, and therefore those executed cannot be wrong too.
But it is rumored that the King’s Mother knew that the three were sacrificed so that the case can be closed and spent execution day meditating in her fav temple. It is also rumored that the three families have recieved (unofficial) support from the palace.
Temple of gloom
Preah Viheara Temple might have at some time in the past belong to one or two of the Siam Dynasties.
But it is time for Thais to wake up to a sad truth – PVT is no longer legally or legitimately Thai territory.
Without going into history and risking LM – the truth is:
We gave it to the French Indo-Chine (some might argue under duress of imperialism) – under the auspices of one of our The Greats.
When the chance came to lodge a claim with the UN, we miss it – despite what the Thai media spinned, the truth is Thailand did not contest that claim – Thailand Elite never was interested in PVT until it is politically beneficial to do so. Remember how the border Thais reacted to the PAD rioters – they actually backed the Cambodians!
Finally, I have to be very honest though it pained me. The fact that PVT was out of Thais hands is possibly THE ONLY REASON why we still have PVT today. Why? Look at everything else in Thailand, do you notice that artistically and archeologically, everything history in Thailand that is being promoted and cared for by the state is Chakri art? Look at Ayuddhya! half of it is not the art of its era anymore – the buddhas features of that time period should be more angular, not the “nice rounded” curves so treasured by Chakri artists. If Thailand had had PVT for the last 60 years, all things historically sacred would have been demolished within and re-stored to look like Chakri artwork. Bits and pieces would have gone missing and ended up in private collections in Europe or US – private sale by we all know who. Maybe the mathematical signficance of PVT architecture might have been safe, but I wouldn’t bet on that.
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
Judgment day . . what was the Thai people’s verdict?
(a) If the ruling party Democrat Party is being judged for its handling of the Red party violent protests and its bloody aftermath, then clearly the verdict is NOT GUILTY, and the Thai public approved!
(b) If the Reds leaders are being judged, then clearly the verdict is GUILTY for arson, bombings and shootings committed during the Black May 2010 Reds violent rampage and Korkaew/rest of Red leaders should be kept in jail.
(c) If the opposition party Pheau Thai is being judged, then clearly this party was the loser.
(d) If Thaksin Shinawatra is being judged, the verdict is GUILTY, GUILTY AND GUILTY.
Judgment day indeed.
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
“…if I could find an RA who could write as clearly and crisply as this, I’d be exceptionally pleased…”
Classic. I wonder if the author of the Thailand-specific content will ever show his or her hand?
Best wishes to all,
Nich
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Rambling and dreary are not the terms I’d use for the first 30 or so pages on politics that I’ve read so far. It is actually a good read and if I could find an RA who could write as clearly and crisply as this, I’d be exceptionally pleased. It appears written by someone with a very reasonable knowledge of events. Yes, it leaves out the Thaksin dark side and only alludes to those aspects, but it is a report for Thaksin, so that is expected.
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
Any idea that the PTP had an advantage by having their candidate in jail and essentially silent seems odd to me as does the comment on them being better organizers. The fact is that the Democrat Party had everything working for them. Including CRES, the military, DSI and the vast majority of the media.
On a different aspect, I was surprised by the low quality reporting on the election on Channel 7 last night at about 7:30 – 8 PM (the only one I viewed). They tended to concentrate on exit polls when the actual count results were available. When they did show actual results, they changed substantially over a short period. No discussion. It was very amateurish.
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
Imagine if Yellow Shirts sent their candidate in this election, Red Shirts would win for sure! I heard many Yellow Shirts had to vote for the Democrat, even though they don’t want to.
But isn’t it illegal that Yellow Shirts’ candidate withdrawn from the election in order to help the Democrat?
At least, we now knew the real reason why Yellow Shirts decided not to participate in the election. Losing to a terrorist is severely painful indeed …
Bangkok Constituency 6: judgement day
For me, this election only demonstrates the stupidity/desperation of the opposition party Peau Thai by playing on a hunch that its Red candidate Korkaew could generate a huge sympathy vote while campaigning from prison. Lossers!!!
C’mon a win is a win….either by a mile or an inch…accept it