The rule of law MUST be up held from all ends and then, ONLY then will any reconciliation effort be effective.
Rule of law not going to mean much here if that very same people that initiate the reconciliation effort is the one who order the killing of people on the other side.
My input was that of a mad ranter, as is the following…
Was there not the 2005 speech where he said he wanted to be violated, then the following year the new charter said he can’t be violated? I put that together with this thing about Sondhi and it seems that there is a particular clique there calling the real shots.
I used my real name and now the prosecutor in Bangkok is weighing whether to sponsor Akbar Khan’s malicious allegations to create a court case.
Jana’s piece has holes here and there…whose does not?…but it is a refreshing piece of writing underlining many hypocritical aspects of the Thai culture. In fact, hypocrisy might be Thailand’s most unshakable institution. That’s why Thai culture seems so complex, and is fondly claimed to be by those who reject badly needed change.
Indeed the rule of law must be upheld, first though, there needs to be a clean up of the power brokers. This includes the Red and Yellow leaders and other influential political figures. We cannot blame Abhisit for the police force he has inherited. All big, good clean ups take time and enormous political upheaval.
The rule of law MUST be up held from all ends and then, ONLY then will any reconciliation effort be effective.
Money will not buy the hearts of the Thaksin followers, but justice might.
I regret not having anything “vigorous” or “high quality” to say, but I want to express a profound “thank you” to the author of this article (there is no other way I know of to do this). This piece is insightful in many ways, and pushes, with grace, boundaries for everyone. It puts in light various media for those of us not experts in them. It analyses deficiencies without laying personal blame. It asks important questions in very straightforward, but non-confrontational, ways. Thank you.
While I understand your apprehensions about using your real name, I think the cause of honest open debate about what’s happening in Thailand would be better served by more people using their real names. This is not criticism, just an observation. Censorship depends on secrecy.
You’re quite right. The red/yellow dichotomy cannot be completely understood in left/right terms.
But there are substantial differences which have consequences.
Among these is that the yellows are in power and the reds are in jail. And the schemas you mention are used to justify this.
Not all media is suppressed. Not all websites are shut down.
One minor point– Suzie Wong’s critique is a good example of a person wanting an author to write a different book, and then criticizing the author for not writing that different book. It is abundantly clear, however — since Scott states it — that the book has limited relevance after 1945.
Scott’s book is fascinating. I am big fan of all his work. That being said, this book combines the acute scholarship we expect from Jim Scott with some parts that are, I think, speculative and not always convincing.
Let me raise two points (out of many I could choose to address.). First, I think Scott’s argument about chosing not to be literate is implausible. He asks what if people actively / strategically “lost” literacy? “The evidence for this last possibility is almost entirely circumstantial” (220). Well, yes.
Furthermore, the “chosing illiteracy” argument does not address the fact that before 1945, I assume that the majority of mainland Southeast Asians were illiterate. (In 194o, for example, perhaps 20% of all Vietnamese were relatively literate). Second, Scott seems to operate with a simplified view of literacy — you have it, or you don’t. In practice, literacy and numeracy can be measured on a continuum. One could know, for example, all the Chinese characters for fish (but no others. . .). But highly literate? Few indeed.
Second — and this is not really a critique of Scott’s book — much of what he writes on “Zomia” seems to apply to many places on the fringes of state power, not just the highlands. Read the first page of Vickery’s book on Cambodia 1975-82 — Vickery, if I remember correctly, is recounting a visit to a village in Cambodia in 1962 of so! Or think about the lower Mekong delta before 1850 — much of it was outside the grasp of state power.
These were lowlands, but somewhat inaccessible ones. Or how about the Riau archipelago in, say, 1800? By the 20th century, these lowland Zomias had disappeared. My question, then, is: why restrict Zomia to the highlands?
You know what, I’m also a Thai and I dont see anything so special about our culture that is so hard to understand. In my opinion, the so called “Impossible to Understand Thai culture” is just the cultural hypocrisy at it best that it is impossible to comprehend (ala the Buddhist country that allow sex trade but not allow alcohol beverage company to be listed, what?) , I dont think I will understand your “Thai way” either.
Thai culture is nothing special, if your a Thai it’s very hard for you to understand this and you should probably not try to. Just take it from the cultures that you trying desperately to copy.
GreedThai: Here’s your big chance then – please explain that special culture so we can all know the wonders of the ‘thai style’.
( or is it so special that it cannot even be put into words? 🙂
Any LM charge is a DISGRACE in my book – doesn’t matter whether it’s Sondhi L, Giles, Jakrapob, Darunee, Suwicha, Sulak, Wipas, Jonathan H, Oliver J, Harry N or any of the hundreds of other cases http://www.globalissues.org/news/2010/05/14/5598
One person could easily stop this nonsense (if he really wanted to!)
the truly startling thing about Indonesia is that their military seems to be under control of their elected government and apparently willingly accepts the results of elections
this has allowed the political players to compete and negotiate without any of them using a threat or actual military threat to get their way.
sadly Thailand continues or perhaps is even more under control of the military so no sensible democratic process can continue
for the first time since 1932 the Thai military/palace allowed a non-military Thaksin to actually continue through 2 elections which gave us all some encouragement but they reverted the process back to the dark ages again
the Thai military/palace must be convinced to remove themselves from business and politics and allow the civilian players to compete on their own merits
someone else commented that Thailand and Indonesia have swapped places over this decade… Thailand was riding high under Thaksin and has fallen while Indonesia has risen
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Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
The rule of law MUST be up held from all ends and then, ONLY then will any reconciliation effort be effective.
Rule of law not going to mean much here if that very same people that initiate the reconciliation effort is the one who order the killing of people on the other side.
New politics, new leader
Totally agree with Nganadeeleg #9
NO ONE should be charged with LM., not even Sondhi Lim, no matter how he himself has used the same charge against others.
New politics, new leader
My input was that of a mad ranter, as is the following…
Was there not the 2005 speech where he said he wanted to be violated, then the following year the new charter said he can’t be violated? I put that together with this thing about Sondhi and it seems that there is a particular clique there calling the real shots.
New politics, new leader
FGA – 10
Just came out and babble about it doesn’t count as trying for me.
New politics, new leader
FGA, that is very interesting to me. Do you have any concrete evidence or more details on this? I would like to know it.
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
I used my real name and now the prosecutor in Bangkok is weighing whether to sponsor Akbar Khan’s malicious allegations to create a court case.
Jana’s piece has holes here and there…whose does not?…but it is a refreshing piece of writing underlining many hypocritical aspects of the Thai culture. In fact, hypocrisy might be Thailand’s most unshakable institution. That’s why Thai culture seems so complex, and is fondly claimed to be by those who reject badly needed change.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Srithanonchai,
Indeed the rule of law must be upheld, first though, there needs to be a clean up of the power brokers. This includes the Red and Yellow leaders and other influential political figures. We cannot blame Abhisit for the police force he has inherited. All big, good clean ups take time and enormous political upheaval.
The rule of law MUST be up held from all ends and then, ONLY then will any reconciliation effort be effective.
Money will not buy the hearts of the Thaksin followers, but justice might.
New politics, new leader
If I am not mistaken, he tried and they overturned his express wishes and then incorporated the same provisions in the charter once again.
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
I regret not having anything “vigorous” or “high quality” to say, but I want to express a profound “thank you” to the author of this article (there is no other way I know of to do this). This piece is insightful in many ways, and pushes, with grace, boundaries for everyone. It puts in light various media for those of us not experts in them. It analyses deficiencies without laying personal blame. It asks important questions in very straightforward, but non-confrontational, ways. Thank you.
Information about detainees and places of detention released by the Royal Thai Police
[…] […]
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
Jana,
While I understand your apprehensions about using your real name, I think the cause of honest open debate about what’s happening in Thailand would be better served by more people using their real names. This is not criticism, just an observation. Censorship depends on secrecy.
You’re quite right. The red/yellow dichotomy cannot be completely understood in left/right terms.
But there are substantial differences which have consequences.
Among these is that the yellows are in power and the reds are in jail. And the schemas you mention are used to justify this.
Not all media is suppressed. Not all websites are shut down.
Review of The Art of Not Being Governed
One minor point– Suzie Wong’s critique is a good example of a person wanting an author to write a different book, and then criticizing the author for not writing that different book. It is abundantly clear, however — since Scott states it — that the book has limited relevance after 1945.
Scott’s book is fascinating. I am big fan of all his work. That being said, this book combines the acute scholarship we expect from Jim Scott with some parts that are, I think, speculative and not always convincing.
Let me raise two points (out of many I could choose to address.). First, I think Scott’s argument about chosing not to be literate is implausible. He asks what if people actively / strategically “lost” literacy? “The evidence for this last possibility is almost entirely circumstantial” (220). Well, yes.
Furthermore, the “chosing illiteracy” argument does not address the fact that before 1945, I assume that the majority of mainland Southeast Asians were illiterate. (In 194o, for example, perhaps 20% of all Vietnamese were relatively literate). Second, Scott seems to operate with a simplified view of literacy — you have it, or you don’t. In practice, literacy and numeracy can be measured on a continuum. One could know, for example, all the Chinese characters for fish (but no others. . .). But highly literate? Few indeed.
Second — and this is not really a critique of Scott’s book — much of what he writes on “Zomia” seems to apply to many places on the fringes of state power, not just the highlands. Read the first page of Vickery’s book on Cambodia 1975-82 — Vickery, if I remember correctly, is recounting a visit to a village in Cambodia in 1962 of so! Or think about the lower Mekong delta before 1850 — much of it was outside the grasp of state power.
These were lowlands, but somewhat inaccessible ones. Or how about the Riau archipelago in, say, 1800? By the 20th century, these lowland Zomias had disappeared. My question, then, is: why restrict Zomia to the highlands?
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
GreedThai – 1
You know what, I’m also a Thai and I dont see anything so special about our culture that is so hard to understand. In my opinion, the so called “Impossible to Understand Thai culture” is just the cultural hypocrisy at it best that it is impossible to comprehend (ala the Buddhist country that allow sex trade but not allow alcohol beverage company to be listed, what?) , I dont think I will understand your “Thai way” either.
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
Thai culture is nothing special, if your a Thai it’s very hard for you to understand this and you should probably not try to. Just take it from the cultures that you trying desperately to copy.
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
GreedThai: Here’s your big chance then – please explain that special culture so we can all know the wonders of the ‘thai style’.
( or is it so special that it cannot even be put into words? 🙂
New politics, new leader
“What goes around comes around: Sondhi Lim”
Any LM charge is a DISGRACE in my book – doesn’t matter whether it’s Sondhi L, Giles, Jakrapob, Darunee, Suwicha, Sulak, Wipas, Jonathan H, Oliver J, Harry N or any of the hundreds of other cases http://www.globalissues.org/news/2010/05/14/5598
One person could easily stop this nonsense (if he really wanted to!)
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
GreedThai: Thank you, you just confirmed that Jana’s point of view is flawless. Your comment is a disgrace for your people.
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
“Both camps are nationalistic, patriarchal, pro-military, capitalist, and consumerist”
a glib list of labels that dont seem to have much relevance to the current situation and certainly are not a useful basis for this discussion.
the yellows support rule by nominated representatives by and for the amart(palace)/military
the reds support rule by elected representatives of and for the people without military interference
I can see some mapping of the yellows onto your list
please explain how you can map the reds onto your list
Somehow I think you have decided you have to classify into left/right but that just doesnt seem relevant to the Thai situation
Try again with a class analysis
Thailand: A Battle Ground for the New Cold War?
Christoffer Larsson #6
agreed I am simplifying a very nuanced complex of structures
as you mention China I would like to know more of how the Chinese Communist Party is internally organised
… someone tells me that there are elections at each level perhaps forming some sort of huge democracy within an even “huger” authoritarian state?
I am also conscious that none of the structures are really static with changes over long and short periods depending on changing forces at work
Thailand: A Battle Ground for the New Cold War?
chris beale #8, Nigel Woodward #9
the truly startling thing about Indonesia is that their military seems to be under control of their elected government and apparently willingly accepts the results of elections
this has allowed the political players to compete and negotiate without any of them using a threat or actual military threat to get their way.
sadly Thailand continues or perhaps is even more under control of the military so no sensible democratic process can continue
for the first time since 1932 the Thai military/palace allowed a non-military Thaksin to actually continue through 2 elections which gave us all some encouragement but they reverted the process back to the dark ages again
the Thai military/palace must be convinced to remove themselves from business and politics and allow the civilian players to compete on their own merits
someone else commented that Thailand and Indonesia have swapped places over this decade… Thailand was riding high under Thaksin and has fallen while Indonesia has risen
sad for Thailand