tukkae #18 – The mocking of homosexuals by Redshirts is not limited to an “influential prominent figure considered by the Redshirts as their ‘Arch-enemy’. ”
“I thought it was all about despising this person,” you say. So, using his alleged sexual preference as one of the justifications for despising him is not homophobic?
I’ve seen many reports of Red leaders, Sae Daeng, for example, reviling their enemies in similar ways. The fact of transexuals (‘lady boys’) being tolerated, even welcomed, at demonstrations doesn’t change anything. One of the main challenges faced by gay men here is posed by the fact that society will not accept that it is possible for men to be attracted to other men – such people are conveniently pushed into the category of ‘women trapped in male bodies’, which is actually a completely different issue, and widely recognised by medical science as not ‘homosexual’. Thai gays, who do not identify as women, are now recognising the attempts to categorise them as khatoeys as homophobic, since they are in fact attempts to wipe out the existence of homosexual identity. Khatoeys are ‘accepted’ because they are easily identified by ‘straight’ society as ‘other’.
If just the apology is enough to get someone out of jail then why do we need this 3 – 15 years imprison punishment?? why not just write a law saying “once you are charge with LM, just say “I’m sorry” and you will be pardon”???
Steve A #33 – thanks for the link. I love this: “The English word ‘scout’ comes from the Thai word р╕кр╕░р╕Бр╕Ф (sagot), which means to suppress, or put to sleep by magic.
12:13 AM Jul 2nd via web”
#32
Presumably modern Thai history started in 1932, or even at an earlier time when the family started sending various of its all-too-numerous surplus-to-requirements minor family members abroad to receive an education that it is was hoped would form the basis of a modern civil service. Given the reputation of their home as a place of high intrigue, one might surmise that many were sent abroad purely to keep them out of mischief’s way – given the old cliche that idle hands eventually turn perverse. (Perhaps there was even a naive notion that some of them would prefer to stay abroad indefinitely.)
The dissatisfaction of this group, after their return, seems to have been one of the triggers for 1932. It appears that quite a large number of this group actually believed that they were not receiving the respect that they believed was commensurate with their inherited high social status and foreign education (not that it had probably been a very pleasant experience for such thoroughly pampered sorts). Hardly fertile ground for a true ‘People’s Party’. And it appears that they have been fooling themselves about the quality of their benevolence ever since.
One might thus be forgiven for thinking that Modern Thai history actually began with an attempt to neutralise potential intriguers and poisoners, but that the long-term effect of such a ‘cunning plan’ was only to shift said intriguers into a slightly different orbit, from which they have continued to poison any honest attempts to create a democracy ever since.
Let’s not even call it evil, since that word conjures up the comic book superstitions that the local elite employ as propaganda. Additionally, it most certainly did not begin with Thaksin, and won’t end with him either.
Perhaps the big question that the reform-minded need to be asking themselves is how they can distance themselves from the various destructive power struggles of this selfish ‘elite’. There is now a fairly broad consensus in this forum that, in their current form, the family and their self-interested apologists are an increasing irrelevance. I would go one step further and say there is a real need to wrestle the reform process away from those other competing succession players who wish to further their own set of ‘elitist’ intentions. Do we really wish to continue fighting a battle which will intentionally only benefit those who are bidding high in the succession stakes. Especially since this struggle really does have the potential to turn into a civil war which is hardly likely to benefit anyone. Especially since the current struggle appears to be just another violent re-run of all the other futile elitist-led power struggles since 1932.
That’s an interesting angle. But with all the fight within UMNO and increased scrutiny, do you reckon its still an important consideration?
on the no contest – yes your right although Muhyiddin did threaten to take on Badawi if Najib did not do anything and ofcourse Razaleigh did attempt to go for the Presidency – but was blocked.
No doubt that the warlords got together to put Najib in place with Muhyiddin as deputy and ofcourse a Najib friendly line-up.
I should add that I don’t expect there is any joy at the way the law is abused and attracting unwanted attention, but they realize it’s needed as it’s the foundation brick stopping the house of cards from tumbling.
Srithanonchai #16: The law is still there because someone at the top has not told anyone to remove it.
(the one speech saying he can be criticized has not been followed up, so it probably can be dismissed as more ‘double speak’)
If that someone really wanted the law gone, or even not abused, they would make it known (in a clear, persuasive manner), and politicians would be clambouring over themselves to do it.
Things could be different in the next reign, but it depends on whether any last minute surprises are pulled.
(I still think a switch will be done)
Whether you agree or not, no one can argue that the problem with Thailand started with this damn 2006 coup. Those powerful figures should have stopped bullying Thaksin right after they seized the power. They shouldn’t have manipulated all these cases. If they appointed group of people who were not Thaksin enemies to look after all these cases, things would never turn these bad. Everything went wrong because they thought they could control it, like they used to do so. Cases after cases, they committed more and more mistakes. Those mistakes put more fire balls into those people who love Thaksin, finally the bomb in their hearts exploded.
The injustice in Thai society has been going on for 4 years and this government is still blind enough to commit the same mistake again and again. I think most Thai know truly well now, who and what is the real problem in this country? But solving the problem in a wrong place at a wrong time is making will only make this problem more complicated. If you treat a normal person with an insane drug, that person will definitely turns insane.
I’m a little surprised about the Reds being labelled as “Anti – Homosexual”.
There were of course frequent mockings about alleged sexual preferences of a influential prominent figure considered by the Redshirts as their “Arch-enemy” but I thought it was all about despising this person.
The controversial “Rak Chiangmai 51” Group once disrupted a Gay Parade but it seemed a single incident.
On this pic during a Redshirt Rallye in Pattaya last year there was obviously a group of Kathoey – “Ladyboys” joining the Reds:
I find that labels such as “simplistic” to describe government behavior et. al is itself simplistic. I believe that the government is not concerned in the slightest regarding anything except its objectives and image, protection of its interests and cooperating staff, and overall status quo. This might be simplistic, too, but seems not far off the mark.
[…] “Video of Thailand on the Verge“, ANU’s New Mandala video series, April 2010. This entry was posted in Canada, Thailand and tagged academic debate, monarchy, political struggle, protests, Thailand conflict. Bookmark the permalink. ← Thai academics are as polarized and dispirited as their nation […]
James C. Scott is a political scientist not a historian, the implication of his book intends for the present time. With global high-speed Internet, you can simply email and ask him at Yale. By chance, I happened to attend his talk when he was conducting this particular research. He said, “My objective is to find areas that are still out of the reach of the State.”
The events would probably proceed according to Scott’s book, had the former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra were not in the picture. What happened was that while Scott was writing this book, Thaksin was shooting his satellite up into the sky. Coming from a modest rural background, Thaksin understands rural Southeast Asia very well, including being the Prime Minister, he was able to sell the strategic communication tools, cell phone and Internet, across the mainland Southeast Asia: Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Burma.
Scott’s intention in this book goes beyond the ordinary left-wing “resistance to the domination” kind of research. Scott looks for ethnic groups that are “historyless,” normadic “burned up agriculture” life style, and the “upland” terrain; all of these criteria have strategic ramifications. In addition, I has also argued that relocation of the AFPAK to Southeast Asia even via the sea, is difficult due to the NATO and the U.S. surveillance.
In my opinion, with the current “Hegemonic Challenge” situation, the framework of an analysis requires new paradigm that connects various issues and levels of analysis, otherwise we would not be able to explain the correlation between world politics, the Asia Pacific security issues, and the unusual departure of Thaksin and Rudd.
Education is one of the important aspect in spreading truth.
Recent Australian decision to expel one of the “General’s Daughter” who sought education in Australia fly in the face of west care for Myanmar democracy.
Sanctioning the regime and its cronies has not work.
Banning these same entities drove them to where they are welcome with opened arms N. Korea.
Now the west is foolishly starting a another generation of bitter Xenophobic Myanmar Elitist.
The SPDC has again proven the willingness to have anyone help out with education of the citizenry.
If the west genuinely wish to see Myanmar as a none N. Korea like entity this is a good time to double down on every bet.
With no limit everyone know that it will break even eventually is not breaking the house.
The principles by which the present regime claim as anointed one to rule Myanmar is obvious here. This is nothing new.
Agreeing or disagreeing aside the reality is at hand.
SPDC is in control through Tamadaw. The 2 entities are virtually inseparable.
Condemning SPDC now= Condemning The Tamadaw.
Recent and not so recent articles by Litner and Benedict Roger again high light how little the west know or rather care to know about Myanmar.
Still counting on the element from within to bring down this regime.
If that is so the reaching out effort surely is wanting.
The never proven to work sanction just got extended.
Hillary Clinton one sided empty chastising of everyone and anyone including Myanmar continue.
The good news is: No more CEO coming out and using Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to sell or advertise anti SPDC stance as selling point.
Being Green is PC and sell more!
The bad news is: Myanmar is drifting towards the arms of N. Korea. With a future of a resource rich nation Myanmar becoming as N.Korea and Cuba like, a cold reality that will trounce any good news.
I have to agree with the comments praising this essay. It is so perceptive on multiple levels about the Thais’ narrow view of the world and themselves.
I know a very few Thais with an open, inquisitive, skeptical mind. They at least reassure me that it’s possible. For the other 99% I know, they almost make me give up hope on this country.
“With hindsight, it would have been better for Thai society if opposition to Thaksin’s corrupt administration had adhered to democratic principles and stayed inside the bounds of constitutional rule.”
That’s a slightly odd comment. Do you really need hindsight? It seemed pretty bloody obvious at the time that overthrowing a legitimate – but dodgy – government was kind of a shit idea. And if it’s the army doing it and they’ve got pictures of the King stuck to the top of their tanks, you don’t need to work for an NGO “committed to preventing and resolving deadly conflict” to work out that this probably won’t end well, at least for anyone not on the side of extreme reaction and conservatism. Still, I see that International Crisis Group was founded by a former World Bank Vice-President so with that kind of institutional pedigree, what can one expect?
On 13 April, a group of about 100 people led by Dr Tul Sitthisomwong, a lecturer at Chulalongkorn University’s Faculty of Medicine, gathered at the Victory Monument. They waved Thai flags, played propaganda songs, and called on silent forces to come out to oppose the red shirts and support the government in not dissolving Parliament.
They sang ‘We Fight’, an anti-communist song whose melody was composed by HM the King in 1970s.
On 24 Nov 2008, Tul led a group of Chulalongkorn lecturers and students under the name of Siam Intellect to a rally at the Army Headquarters to call on Gen Anupong and the military to take a leading role in maintaining peace and order in society and maintain loyalty to the monarchy. Soldiers were the hope of the people in the protection of Nation, Religion and the King, he said at the time.
Later, he went on to speak on the stage of the PAD, attacking the then Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat, saying that a jail sentence was not enough for him, because he who had ordered the killing of other people should also die [Tul referred to the 7 Oct 2008 incident in which the PAD clashed with police after the PAD surrounded and closed the Parliament compound]. Somchai must be severely punished after he was removed from office.
Tul went on to say that, speaking as a doctor, love for the country and the king was embedded only in Thais’ DNA, not that of other peoples. It was a pity that many Thais had mutated and did not have the love for the king in their DNA and should not be called Thai, he said.
Which is one of the reasons I called attention to the NPP’s, that is the PAD’s, logo.
Given his fierce, former stand, Tul now must favor the death penalty for that poor, pretty boy… Abhisit? I don’t think so.
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Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
tukkae #18 – The mocking of homosexuals by Redshirts is not limited to an “influential prominent figure considered by the Redshirts as their ‘Arch-enemy’. ”
“I thought it was all about despising this person,” you say. So, using his alleged sexual preference as one of the justifications for despising him is not homophobic?
I’ve seen many reports of Red leaders, Sae Daeng, for example, reviling their enemies in similar ways. The fact of transexuals (‘lady boys’) being tolerated, even welcomed, at demonstrations doesn’t change anything. One of the main challenges faced by gay men here is posed by the fact that society will not accept that it is possible for men to be attracted to other men – such people are conveniently pushed into the category of ‘women trapped in male bodies’, which is actually a completely different issue, and widely recognised by medical science as not ‘homosexual’. Thai gays, who do not identify as women, are now recognising the attempts to categorise them as khatoeys as homophobic, since they are in fact attempts to wipe out the existence of homosexual identity. Khatoeys are ‘accepted’ because they are easily identified by ‘straight’ society as ‘other’.
New politics, new leader
chris beale – 17
If just the apology is enough to get someone out of jail then why do we need this 3 – 15 years imprison punishment?? why not just write a law saying “once you are charge with LM, just say “I’m sorry” and you will be pardon”???
Thanong on King Bhumibol
Steve A #33 – thanks for the link. I love this: “The English word ‘scout’ comes from the Thai word р╕кр╕░р╕Бр╕Ф (sagot), which means to suppress, or put to sleep by magic.
12:13 AM Jul 2nd via web”
Thanong on King Bhumibol
#32
Presumably modern Thai history started in 1932, or even at an earlier time when the family started sending various of its all-too-numerous surplus-to-requirements minor family members abroad to receive an education that it is was hoped would form the basis of a modern civil service. Given the reputation of their home as a place of high intrigue, one might surmise that many were sent abroad purely to keep them out of mischief’s way – given the old cliche that idle hands eventually turn perverse. (Perhaps there was even a naive notion that some of them would prefer to stay abroad indefinitely.)
The dissatisfaction of this group, after their return, seems to have been one of the triggers for 1932. It appears that quite a large number of this group actually believed that they were not receiving the respect that they believed was commensurate with their inherited high social status and foreign education (not that it had probably been a very pleasant experience for such thoroughly pampered sorts). Hardly fertile ground for a true ‘People’s Party’. And it appears that they have been fooling themselves about the quality of their benevolence ever since.
One might thus be forgiven for thinking that Modern Thai history actually began with an attempt to neutralise potential intriguers and poisoners, but that the long-term effect of such a ‘cunning plan’ was only to shift said intriguers into a slightly different orbit, from which they have continued to poison any honest attempts to create a democracy ever since.
Let’s not even call it evil, since that word conjures up the comic book superstitions that the local elite employ as propaganda. Additionally, it most certainly did not begin with Thaksin, and won’t end with him either.
Perhaps the big question that the reform-minded need to be asking themselves is how they can distance themselves from the various destructive power struggles of this selfish ‘elite’. There is now a fairly broad consensus in this forum that, in their current form, the family and their self-interested apologists are an increasing irrelevance. I would go one step further and say there is a real need to wrestle the reform process away from those other competing succession players who wish to further their own set of ‘elitist’ intentions. Do we really wish to continue fighting a battle which will intentionally only benefit those who are bidding high in the succession stakes. Especially since this struggle really does have the potential to turn into a civil war which is hardly likely to benefit anyone. Especially since the current struggle appears to be just another violent re-run of all the other futile elitist-led power struggles since 1932.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Srithanonchai,
Its funny you put Newin’s name first…
Yes, they all should be subject to the rule of law.
The 13th General Election in Malaysia
Hi Neptunian,
That’s an interesting angle. But with all the fight within UMNO and increased scrutiny, do you reckon its still an important consideration?
on the no contest – yes your right although Muhyiddin did threaten to take on Badawi if Najib did not do anything and ofcourse Razaleigh did attempt to go for the Presidency – but was blocked.
No doubt that the warlords got together to put Najib in place with Muhyiddin as deputy and ofcourse a Najib friendly line-up.
New politics, new leader
I should add that I don’t expect there is any joy at the way the law is abused and attracting unwanted attention, but they realize it’s needed as it’s the foundation brick stopping the house of cards from tumbling.
New politics, new leader
Srithanonchai #16: The law is still there because someone at the top has not told anyone to remove it.
(the one speech saying he can be criticized has not been followed up, so it probably can be dismissed as more ‘double speak’)
If that someone really wanted the law gone, or even not abused, they would make it known (in a clear, persuasive manner), and politicians would be clambouring over themselves to do it.
Things could be different in the next reign, but it depends on whether any last minute surprises are pulled.
(I still think a switch will be done)
International Crisis Group on Thailand’s divide
Whether you agree or not, no one can argue that the problem with Thailand started with this damn 2006 coup. Those powerful figures should have stopped bullying Thaksin right after they seized the power. They shouldn’t have manipulated all these cases. If they appointed group of people who were not Thaksin enemies to look after all these cases, things would never turn these bad. Everything went wrong because they thought they could control it, like they used to do so. Cases after cases, they committed more and more mistakes. Those mistakes put more fire balls into those people who love Thaksin, finally the bomb in their hearts exploded.
The injustice in Thai society has been going on for 4 years and this government is still blind enough to commit the same mistake again and again. I think most Thai know truly well now, who and what is the real problem in this country? But solving the problem in a wrong place at a wrong time is making will only make this problem more complicated. If you treat a normal person with an insane drug, that person will definitely turns insane.
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
I’m a little surprised about the Reds being labelled as “Anti – Homosexual”.
There were of course frequent mockings about alleged sexual preferences of a influential prominent figure considered by the Redshirts as their “Arch-enemy” but I thought it was all about despising this person.
The controversial “Rak Chiangmai 51” Group once disrupted a Gay Parade but it seemed a single incident.
On this pic during a Redshirt Rallye in Pattaya last year there was obviously a group of Kathoey – “Ladyboys” joining the Reds:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w107/Namtok/Red%20Pattaya%202306/DSCF3863.jpg
International Crisis Group on Thailand’s divide
I find that labels such as “simplistic” to describe government behavior et. al is itself simplistic. I believe that the government is not concerned in the slightest regarding anything except its objectives and image, protection of its interests and cooperating staff, and overall status quo. This might be simplistic, too, but seems not far off the mark.
Video of Thailand on the Verge
[…] “Video of Thailand on the Verge“, ANU’s New Mandala video series, April 2010. This entry was posted in Canada, Thailand and tagged academic debate, monarchy, political struggle, protests, Thailand conflict. Bookmark the permalink. ← Thai academics are as polarized and dispirited as their nation […]
Review of The Art of Not Being Governed
James C. Scott is a political scientist not a historian, the implication of his book intends for the present time. With global high-speed Internet, you can simply email and ask him at Yale. By chance, I happened to attend his talk when he was conducting this particular research. He said, “My objective is to find areas that are still out of the reach of the State.”
The events would probably proceed according to Scott’s book, had the former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra were not in the picture. What happened was that while Scott was writing this book, Thaksin was shooting his satellite up into the sky. Coming from a modest rural background, Thaksin understands rural Southeast Asia very well, including being the Prime Minister, he was able to sell the strategic communication tools, cell phone and Internet, across the mainland Southeast Asia: Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Burma.
Scott’s intention in this book goes beyond the ordinary left-wing “resistance to the domination” kind of research. Scott looks for ethnic groups that are “historyless,” normadic “burned up agriculture” life style, and the “upland” terrain; all of these criteria have strategic ramifications. In addition, I has also argued that relocation of the AFPAK to Southeast Asia even via the sea, is difficult due to the NATO and the U.S. surveillance.
In my opinion, with the current “Hegemonic Challenge” situation, the framework of an analysis requires new paradigm that connects various issues and levels of analysis, otherwise we would not be able to explain the correlation between world politics, the Asia Pacific security issues, and the unusual departure of Thaksin and Rudd.
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
[…] http://www.newmandala.org/2010/07/05/thai-media-culture-in-the-eyes-of-a-foreigner/ […]
Private schooling returns to Myanmar
Education is one of the important aspect in spreading truth.
Recent Australian decision to expel one of the “General’s Daughter” who sought education in Australia fly in the face of west care for Myanmar democracy.
Sanctioning the regime and its cronies has not work.
Banning these same entities drove them to where they are welcome with opened arms N. Korea.
Now the west is foolishly starting a another generation of bitter Xenophobic Myanmar Elitist.
The SPDC has again proven the willingness to have anyone help out with education of the citizenry.
If the west genuinely wish to see Myanmar as a none N. Korea like entity this is a good time to double down on every bet.
With no limit everyone know that it will break even eventually is not breaking the house.
New Thai street signs
[…] http://www.newmandala.org/2010/07/01/new-thai-street-signs/ […]
His beloved Tatmadaw
The principles by which the present regime claim as anointed one to rule Myanmar is obvious here. This is nothing new.
Agreeing or disagreeing aside the reality is at hand.
SPDC is in control through Tamadaw. The 2 entities are virtually inseparable.
Condemning SPDC now= Condemning The Tamadaw.
Recent and not so recent articles by Litner and Benedict Roger again high light how little the west know or rather care to know about Myanmar.
Still counting on the element from within to bring down this regime.
If that is so the reaching out effort surely is wanting.
The never proven to work sanction just got extended.
Hillary Clinton one sided empty chastising of everyone and anyone including Myanmar continue.
The good news is: No more CEO coming out and using Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to sell or advertise anti SPDC stance as selling point.
Being Green is PC and sell more!
The bad news is: Myanmar is drifting towards the arms of N. Korea. With a future of a resource rich nation Myanmar becoming as N.Korea and Cuba like, a cold reality that will trounce any good news.
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
I have to agree with the comments praising this essay. It is so perceptive on multiple levels about the Thais’ narrow view of the world and themselves.
I know a very few Thais with an open, inquisitive, skeptical mind. They at least reassure me that it’s possible. For the other 99% I know, they almost make me give up hope on this country.
International Crisis Group on Thailand’s divide
“With hindsight, it would have been better for Thai society if opposition to Thaksin’s corrupt administration had adhered to democratic principles and stayed inside the bounds of constitutional rule.”
That’s a slightly odd comment. Do you really need hindsight? It seemed pretty bloody obvious at the time that overthrowing a legitimate – but dodgy – government was kind of a shit idea. And if it’s the army doing it and they’ve got pictures of the King stuck to the top of their tanks, you don’t need to work for an NGO “committed to preventing and resolving deadly conflict” to work out that this probably won’t end well, at least for anyone not on the side of extreme reaction and conservatism. Still, I see that International Crisis Group was founded by a former World Bank Vice-President so with that kind of institutional pedigree, what can one expect?
Thai media culture in the eyes of a foreigner
Garfield
Actually… they do. Just as Dr Tul Lysenko, I mean Dr Tul Sitthisomwong…
Which is one of the reasons I called attention to the NPP’s, that is the PAD’s, logo.
Given his fierce, former stand, Tul now must favor the death penalty for that poor, pretty boy… Abhisit? I don’t think so.