Simon #68 (and #31, 37, 41) :
I’m not wasting time on anyone who still supports/justifies the military coup and the directed military & judicial interventions to quash the peoples choices.
However, I will ask you why the person you named refused to contest an election in 2006, and why has he chosen to see people be killed rather than seek real indisputable legitimization?
You could also ask yourself why he’s still afraid of facing the people when the opposition A Team (and B Team), have already been taken out of the game?
Trades unions have got to be a major force in the eventual transformation of Thai society and I know that practical comments on this and other issues are appreciated by the players in the drama.
Sam, maybe unions aren’t as sexy as red shirts and yellow shirts. They certainly don’t have millions of Baht pouring in. Has any of the Thaksin funding gone their way?
With the public sector unions, they probably thought their status was under attack by the Thaksin governments as threats of privatization were flying around and pieces were being chopped off them as at SRT and the airport link.
She’s definitely big power. The first time a Prime Minister’s wife is actually involved in Malaysia’s patronage system in a concrete way. She actually decides on who gets what projects.
Not bad for a society that does not give women their rightful place in society – even if she is alleged to be corrupt.
On the first day of the airport sit-in, by the yellow shirts, buses arrived and students were told that they would get free food, round trip bus transport, and 500 baht a day for the sit-in. Several busloads left from the technical college for the airport.
That’s about as close anyone has come to answering my question which was –
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
So we have one other example now. We don’t have any evidence, but that’s hard to prove unless you start looking into bank accounts. I have to admit on my visits to the airport young people and students were a very rare sight. In fact similar to this year’s red shirt rally as I posted before.
So let us for the moment take it that there were people at the PAD rally who were paid. That’s gives us just two movements, both in Thailand, that would claim to be pro-democracy of one sort or other. We still can’t find another similar example outside Thailand. So are both legitimate pro-democracy movements, or just one of them, or neither?
I’m sure the PAD has its own set of very rich supporters.
I have no idea of the total amount paid by Thaksin and his family, but how much is a country worth? What sort or return on investment can you make? Then again it must be harder for him to travel, to find countries that will let him in, and if he doesn’t want to spend sometime in the monkey house he does need to get control of Thailand back if he is to return. What’s the price on that?
Thailand is in crisis in part because of some of the fervor that Thais and expatriates alike pounce on others whose opinions they do not appreciate. My case involves at least two criminal defamation allegations against me by Akbar Khan and Pol. col. Wattanasak. They felt insulted by my term “might be deemed to have insulted the monarchy” in reference to their overt campaigns to crush anyone who dares to speak about the Thai monarchy or even criticize lese majeste advocates such as themselves.
Nick # 279 :
Well it’s a credit to The ( Royalist ) Nation that they helped you over this matter.
And probably a sign of the respect they have for you as a top-quality journalist, despite their paper’s different perspective from your own.
At least Bangkok is not yet so polarised that quality media professionals refuse to work together. Common ground gives cause for hope.
I believe 150 billions baht is far beyond what Thaksin could paid. I don’t think even Bill Gates would sacrifice that amount. They must be a lot of billionaires that is supporting red shirts, if that is true, that mean they’re a lot of elites that are satisfying of red shirt’s objectives, which seems unlikely as nearly every business mongers in Thailand are supporting PAD’s objective.
Interesting, Haym Solomon. Now just guessing, was the revolutionary army being paid and was Haym Solomon financing it? That’s getting pretty close even if it was such a long time ago. Then again there are certainly big differences between the Washington’s revolutionary army and the UDD movement.
Being a big American Revolutionary War buff, I’ll try to restrain myself from clogging this thread with minutiae about said conflict. However, both the American milita and regulars were paid. As the American war chest was empty more often than full, many of these soldiers weren’t paid on time, or at all. This would lead to desertion and eventually, shortly after the war, Shays’ Rebellion.
denyzofisarn, you have forgotten the ONE man who many would consider the best political player in the country. The longest running, most powerful, and yes, successful of the all.
The fact that the best politicians in Thailand aren’t the politicians themselves are sure to raise eyebrows in other countries. IMO, they are the ones behind the myth ‘All Politicians are corrupt’. Even when the army is 100x worse? It’s like pointing to a dog poop, when an elephant is taking a dump.
If Politics makes one corrupt, then the most successful ones ought to be Satan’s child, and rightly so.
my aim in asking you how it works is not to discredit you but to deepen the discussion. How it works is crucial.
I didn’t say that, it was Collin but I actually agreed with you on that by the way. Well since Andrew answers that for me I guess I dont have to say anything.
Nganadeeleg: Yes that’s pretty much exactly what I was talking about. Having difficulty in naming names? Let’s try this one – Abhisit: Elected or not? (Tomorrow perhaps we will be able to get your views on Julia Gillard’s legitimacy as well).
There was an election after the coup, a simple fact conveniently omitted in virtually all propaganda rants. These are forced to attack as biased (without offering a shred of evidence) the court decisions to dissolve parties that committed electoral fraud, because its the only way they can prop themselves up.
Coincidentally, the conviction of Thaksin’s lawyers for attempting to bribe court officials – caught red handed with the cash by a passing judge – is conveniently forgotten 🙂
Tarrin, they might not get the pie in the sky, but at least in most democracies, people don’t get shot in the head by state actors– be they soldiers or paramilitaries.
Amazing Thailand, Land of Smiles.
(Dammit, I said smile at the tourist or I shoot you.)
Stan, does having a party platform, running on that platform, then when you win and receive a the majority of votes it gives you a mandate to carry it out, and then actually delivering on the promises constitute the “more effective and more expensive ways to influence the election results” that you take about?
If so what are you proposing instead of democracy. Oligarchy.?as long as you are included? Facism? Timocracy? Enthocracy?
Thaksin, was a megalomaniac.
But he did give the masses Universal Health Care and his government got the BTS and Subway so it has not just been about Issan and Chaing Mai.
I prefer the democratic elected megalomaniac Thaksin, to the aristocratic unelected and unwanted Abhisit.
Sam Deedes, trade unions have been treated in a manner similar to the red shirt rally.
The only effective unions have been those of government entities that have attempted to prevent privatization. This would more accurately be described as an bureaucratic attempt to keep their moribund fiefdoms free of the completion of a robust marketplace.
But I agree, a true labour movement needs to engage in the struggle to move the people forward.
Reduction in VAT, increased property taxes, increased condemnation of property for pubic purposes, perhaps a relocation of the political capital to a new city (say in Saraburi), are other ideas for the future.
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Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Simon #68 (and #31, 37, 41) :
I’m not wasting time on anyone who still supports/justifies the military coup and the directed military & judicial interventions to quash the peoples choices.
However, I will ask you why the person you named refused to contest an election in 2006, and why has he chosen to see people be killed rather than seek real indisputable legitimization?
You could also ask yourself why he’s still afraid of facing the people when the opposition A Team (and B Team), have already been taken out of the game?
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Sam Deedes – 65
Trades unions have got to be a major force in the eventual transformation of Thai society and I know that practical comments on this and other issues are appreciated by the players in the drama.
Sam, maybe unions aren’t as sexy as red shirts and yellow shirts. They certainly don’t have millions of Baht pouring in. Has any of the Thaksin funding gone their way?
With the public sector unions, they probably thought their status was under attack by the Thaksin governments as threats of privatization were flying around and pieces were being chopped off them as at SRT and the airport link.
Malaysia’s First Lady
She’s definitely big power. The first time a Prime Minister’s wife is actually involved in Malaysia’s patronage system in a concrete way. She actually decides on who gets what projects.
Not bad for a society that does not give women their rightful place in society – even if she is alleged to be corrupt.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
JB – 64
On the first day of the airport sit-in, by the yellow shirts, buses arrived and students were told that they would get free food, round trip bus transport, and 500 baht a day for the sit-in. Several busloads left from the technical college for the airport.
That’s about as close anyone has come to answering my question which was –
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
So we have one other example now. We don’t have any evidence, but that’s hard to prove unless you start looking into bank accounts. I have to admit on my visits to the airport young people and students were a very rare sight. In fact similar to this year’s red shirt rally as I posted before.
So let us for the moment take it that there were people at the PAD rally who were paid. That’s gives us just two movements, both in Thailand, that would claim to be pro-democracy of one sort or other. We still can’t find another similar example outside Thailand. So are both legitimate pro-democracy movements, or just one of them, or neither?
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Wester – 66
At some point, people are just going to ask that the trains and busses run on time and an acceptable response will not be…
Wester I thought you were going with the off-quoted remark about Mussolini. I expected the, “Well at least they did under Thaksin.”
I still think he is more like Berlusconi, but in another thread someone did say Mussolini was a better comparison.
Thaksin’s greatest reform ever!
Jack – 24
I’m sure the PAD has its own set of very rich supporters.
I have no idea of the total amount paid by Thaksin and his family, but how much is a country worth? What sort or return on investment can you make? Then again it must be harder for him to travel, to find countries that will let him in, and if he doesn’t want to spend sometime in the monkey house he does need to get control of Thailand back if he is to return. What’s the price on that?
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
Thailand is in crisis in part because of some of the fervor that Thais and expatriates alike pounce on others whose opinions they do not appreciate. My case involves at least two criminal defamation allegations against me by Akbar Khan and Pol. col. Wattanasak. They felt insulted by my term “might be deemed to have insulted the monarchy” in reference to their overt campaigns to crush anyone who dares to speak about the Thai monarchy or even criticize lese majeste advocates such as themselves.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Nick # 279 :
Well it’s a credit to The ( Royalist ) Nation that they helped you over this matter.
And probably a sign of the respect they have for you as a top-quality journalist, despite their paper’s different perspective from your own.
At least Bangkok is not yet so polarised that quality media professionals refuse to work together. Common ground gives cause for hope.
Thaksin’s greatest reform ever!
I believe 150 billions baht is far beyond what Thaksin could paid. I don’t think even Bill Gates would sacrifice that amount. They must be a lot of billionaires that is supporting red shirts, if that is true, that mean they’re a lot of elites that are satisfying of red shirt’s objectives, which seems unlikely as nearly every business mongers in Thailand are supporting PAD’s objective.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
re: LesAbbey
Interesting, Haym Solomon. Now just guessing, was the revolutionary army being paid and was Haym Solomon financing it? That’s getting pretty close even if it was such a long time ago. Then again there are certainly big differences between the Washington’s revolutionary army and the UDD movement.
Being a big American Revolutionary War buff, I’ll try to restrain myself from clogging this thread with minutiae about said conflict. However, both the American milita and regulars were paid. As the American war chest was empty more often than full, many of these soldiers weren’t paid on time, or at all. This would lead to desertion and eventually, shortly after the war, Shays’ Rebellion.
As for Haym Salomon, I’ll let the U.S. Postal Service have the last word:
“Businessman and broker Haym Salomon was responsible for raising most of the money needed to finance the American Revolution and later to save the new nation from collapse. ” (from a commemorative postage stamp issued in 1975)
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
denyzofisarn, you have forgotten the ONE man who many would consider the best political player in the country. The longest running, most powerful, and yes, successful of the all.
The fact that the best politicians in Thailand aren’t the politicians themselves are sure to raise eyebrows in other countries. IMO, they are the ones behind the myth ‘All Politicians are corrupt’. Even when the army is 100x worse? It’s like pointing to a dog poop, when an elephant is taking a dump.
If Politics makes one corrupt, then the most successful ones ought to be Satan’s child, and rightly so.
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
Andrew Walker – 38
my aim in asking you how it works is not to discredit you but to deepen the discussion. How it works is crucial.
I didn’t say that, it was Collin but I actually agreed with you on that by the way. Well since Andrew answers that for me I guess I dont have to say anything.
Thank StanG for the link.
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
Could Frank kindly give a link to his case which is a mystery to me? Is it somehow relevant to this discussion?
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Nganadeeleg: Yes that’s pretty much exactly what I was talking about. Having difficulty in naming names? Let’s try this one – Abhisit: Elected or not? (Tomorrow perhaps we will be able to get your views on Julia Gillard’s legitimacy as well).
There was an election after the coup, a simple fact conveniently omitted in virtually all propaganda rants. These are forced to attack as biased (without offering a shred of evidence) the court decisions to dissolve parties that committed electoral fraud, because its the only way they can prop themselves up.
Coincidentally, the conviction of Thaksin’s lawyers for attempting to bribe court officials – caught red handed with the cash by a passing judge – is conveniently forgotten 🙂
Translation of interview with Sae Daeng
Tarrin, they might not get the pie in the sky, but at least in most democracies, people don’t get shot in the head by state actors– be they soldiers or paramilitaries.
Amazing Thailand, Land of Smiles.
(Dammit, I said smile at the tourist or I shoot you.)
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
michael #60, sorry i cannot check Thaienews is blocked where I am now in Thailand…I’ll check when (if) I get back!
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
Stan, does having a party platform, running on that platform, then when you win and receive a the majority of votes it gives you a mandate to carry it out, and then actually delivering on the promises constitute the “more effective and more expensive ways to influence the election results” that you take about?
If so what are you proposing instead of democracy. Oligarchy.?as long as you are included? Facism? Timocracy? Enthocracy?
Thaksin, was a megalomaniac.
But he did give the masses Universal Health Care and his government got the BTS and Subway so it has not just been about Issan and Chaing Mai.
I prefer the democratic elected megalomaniac Thaksin, to the aristocratic unelected and unwanted Abhisit.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Sam Deedes, trade unions have been treated in a manner similar to the red shirt rally.
The only effective unions have been those of government entities that have attempted to prevent privatization. This would more accurately be described as an bureaucratic attempt to keep their moribund fiefdoms free of the completion of a robust marketplace.
But I agree, a true labour movement needs to engage in the struggle to move the people forward.
Reduction in VAT, increased property taxes, increased condemnation of property for pubic purposes, perhaps a relocation of the political capital to a new city (say in Saraburi), are other ideas for the future.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
At some point, people are just going to ask that the trains and busses run on time and an acceptable response will not be
“We can’t because of Thaksin”
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Channarong Polsrila, R.I.P.you will be missed.
One day a statue will be erected in your honor.
And a memorial for the others who fought tyrany and for the right for the government that they elect to actually be allowed to hold power.