Chris Beale [Jun 6, 2010 at 7:17 am] — your overall analysis of events may be valid, but my question was why did you say (in an earlier comment) “America abandoned Seni Pramoj during the Thammasat 1976 massacre”? All you replied was “Kissinger and Gerald Ford at least acquiesed, but more likely sanctioned, both the build up to Thammasat, and the subsequent coup : which meant abandoning the conservative, highly pro-American Democrat Seni Pramoj.”
You’ve explained your conclusion simply by re-stating it.
What exactly did America do that leads you to the conclusion they abandoned Seni during the massacre? If your answer is they did nothing to stop it, then fair enough. But I wasn’t asking for speculation about what they did.
If Seni was “highly pro-American,” it doesn’t make sense they would abandon him, does it?
The Lao Government pays little serious attention to the Western agencies.
To understand how development through regional integration, and perhaps a form of neo-colonialism in Laos will proceed, here is a thought experiment:
Trace through the implications of the below, drawing upon the example of Cambodia.
========================================
*New law gives foreign investors land use rights*
Vientiane Times, 5 Jan 2010
Amendments to the newly approved Law on Investment Promotion are expected to encourage foreign investment in Laos by offering investors land use rights.
Minister of Planning and Investment Dr Sinlavong Khoutphaythoune said last week the law drafting committee had made the amendments with a view to creating an investment environment that would attract more local and overseas investment in Laos .
“We have completed the amendments and hope the president will
promulgate the law within one month,” he told Vientiane Times, adding that local and foreign investors are waiting for the government to enact the law.
The Lao National Assembly approved the revised investment promotion law in July but was unable to put it into practice after concerns were expressed over new investment incentives that allowed foreigners who invest 2.5 billion kip (US$300,000) to have land use rights.
Their view was that investors had a lot of money and would buy
residential land use rights, causing the price of land to increase.
This would mean local people would be unable to own land use rights
because residential land would be unaffordable.
The government decided to amend the law in accordance with the
recommendations of the law makers.
A member of the National Assembly said it was possible for standing
members to amend the law even though the majority of assembly members had already approved it.
Dr Sinlavong said the government decided to raise the minimum amount invested for ownership of residential land use rights in Laos from US $300,000 to US$500,000.
Foreign investors who met this requirement would only be allowed to
obtain residential land use rights in certain areas.
“ Vientiane and provincial authorities will decide on the areas where
foreign investors can obtain residential land use rights,” he said.
Investment Promotion Department Director General Houmpheng Soularay said a foreign investor would be able to obtain land use rights for as long as they continued to run a business in Laos .
Another investment official said the government’s decision to use land use rights as an investment incentive was to promote investment in real estate development, adding that the government wanted to encourage the building of houses but Lao people were often unable to buy new properties.
She said the government wanted to encourage wealthy people to live in Laos because they would also spend their money here.
A number of countries allow foreigners to buy property if they invest
a large amount of money in the country.
Investment officials said the government’s policy to use residential
land use rights as an investment incentive was one of the best ways to
encourage investment in Laos , adding that many appreciate the
peacefulness here and wanted to live in the country.
They also said foreigners find Lao people to be very friendly.
I totally agree with Prof. Ball’s positive assessment of the Thai army’s recent performance on the streets of Bangkok. In May 1992 I personally witnessed the military crackdown on anti-Suchinda protesters. On that occasion, troops armed with war weapons shot and killed dozens of unarmed protesters as they marched toward Sanam Luang. It was brutal and merciless. But nothing like that happened on May 19. This time, the army was given a very difficult task which I believe they carried out professionally and courageously. They were asked to clear thousands of “red shirt” protesters from a huge encampment covering several square kilometers in the heart of Bangkok. Most of the protesters were unarmed, or armed only with rocks, slingshots and very noisy fire-crackers. But there were also dozens, possibly hundreds, of heavily armed militants involved, many of whom were discretely positioned on the periphery of the encampment. These “black shirt” militants had already killed several soldiers during the botched security operation on April 10th, as Prof. Ball mentioned. Their arms included pistols, rifles, automatic weapons and grenade launchers. On May 19, these militants tried to stop the troops from reaching the main protest site by engaging in firefights in and around Lumphini Park. Many people were shot, both militants and soldiers, but miraculously only 15 people died in Bangkok that day (Time Magazine, May 27). While every one of these deaths is a terrible tragedy, many more lives would have been lost if the troops had panicked and started shooting indiscriminately, or if they had deliberately used lethal force against unarmed protesters. To describe what the army did that day as “a bloody crackdown” is simply inaccurate. I would say they actually avoided what could easily have turned into a terrible bloodbath by acting with tremendous restraint. To imply, by using language like “bloody crackdown”, that these soldiers can be compared to the uniformed thugs who slaughtered unarmed protesters on the streets of Bangkok in May 1992 does them a terrible injustice. I, for one, salute them.
actually in 1992 I watched the protests from Australia, at the time we understood that most live coverage was suppressed in Thailand and afterwards our recordings and others were in demand in Thailand by people wanting to know what happened
however generally we (local Australians) thought the protesters were trying yo unseat a military dictatorship and were happy to see Chamlong providing leadership
when Chamlong visited Australia shortly after the protests the Australian Foreign Affairs people contacted us and we took Chamlong and wife to the Thai Monastery at Serpentine and also in the evening to a busy food hall at Fremantle where a number of locals were really happy to greet and thank him for his role (and introduce him to their children as someone very famous)
I was already aware of the “secret war” in Laos and the mess of Cambodia and generally that the US anti-commo drive had destroyed lots of Thai innocence
but it was only after 1992 I started to look more deeply into Thai government and politics so, unfortunately, I didnt ask any useful questions of Chamlong and didnt dream them he had been involved in Laos and Vietnam and links into the sordid US military/CIA
meanwhile I am sure most of us on this forum are trying to be objective and evidence based and if you think we are red leaning you should respect thats because we believe thats where the evidence points
criticisiing our choice of friends is not useful, any evidence or even well founded beliefs will be listened to
The army came on to Rajaprarop on May 14th, and set up a barricade at Rangnam. That was prior to any “mob” throwing bricks or breaking into Center One. I have photos of the same.
LesAbbey (47). I remeber how your lot used to slag off about Newin, but now that you’ve bought him off and he’s one of your own– dead silence. There’s a word for this.
Just to counter Des Balls praise for the Thai army in general, I would like to compare his comments to those made by Duncan McCargo in his book on the southern conflict.
“The Royal Thai army is a uniformed bureaucracy that does not fight wars. Unlike other powerful militaries in Southeast Asia it never waged an independence struggle and has never repelled invaders in modern times. The core pursuits of the Thai military are playing in politics and engaging in business activities ( including illegal activities, such as smuggling); when the occasion arises, commanders are not averse to killing a few dozen unarmed civilians.”
” The persistent conflation of royalist moralism with issues of security strategy and basic military competence testified to the muddled thinking of army officers and their attempts to reduce complex social and political problems to black and white alternatives. A researcher, Nattanan Wichit-aksorn wrote that the inefficiency of Thai security forces, with their excessive attachment to using and displaying force, was a major factor behind the escalation in the violence.”
Although this last statement is ostensibly about the southern crisis, I think it applies equally to the situation that played out in Bangkok, and will continue to play out over the coming years. Especially the issue of royalist moralism, where anyone taking a different view point, be it separatism in the south, or a return to electoral democracy in the case of the reds, is deemed to working against or subverting the King. Which directly leads the army to justify outbreaks of violence, with the idea of protecting the monarch.
I would like to say a few words to Des Ball’s comments:
The 9th infantry division was involved in the events on April 10. They were supposed to cross Pinklao Bridge and join up the forces of Col. Romklao from the 2nd Division and the few armored vehicles (i think it was 4th Cavalry Regiment, without looking into my notes) there. But when faced by protesters they ran and abandoned 20 or so vehicles on the bridge at about 18.30. That is when the plan completely collapsed, and should have been abandoned, but wasn’t.
Also, Col. Romklao was not killed by a sniper, but by 2 M79 grenades launched at the military lines. Many military officers question why they have had their command post at such a forward position, and not in the back. These grenades wounded most of the commanding officers, and took out more or less the whole command structure in one go.
The 3rd Army is quite professional, but…there is also massive corruption evident there, and also much criminal involvement in the cross border drug trade.
As to the professionalism of the army during the crackdown, i somewhat disagree. Only one single “Black Shirt” was confirmed killed, and i know of one more dead of their supporting force. The remainder of the dead and wounded were unarmed guards (other than with slingshots, Bang Fai, etc.), ordinary protesters, several civilians who got into the line of fire, EMS volunteers, and journalists.
Of course it is quite difficult to work in such an environment where you have a huge number of ordinary protesters and a few commando style militant units terrorizing the military. Nevertheless, the CRES had clear rules of engagement, a clear distinction of legitimate targets and people who were not to be shot. Those rules of engagement were broken many times – i have been at several places were deadly fire was used by the military against ordinary protesters in situations where no “Black Shirts” shooting at the army were present, and shots were fired even against clearly designated rescue vehicles.
The final death toll may be quite higher than the official number, many protesters are still missing, and there is increasing evidence of missing corpses in several areas of combat. Rajaparop Road is one such place.
Increasing evidence and proof is now coming out that in several instances the military and government has been lying. One blatant example is the presence of soldiers on the BTS tracks on May 19. Anupong and Suthep stated that only on May 20th soldiers were stationed there opposite of the temple, while a video came out yesterday that shows soldiers stationed there on May 19 (the cinema is still in flames, while in the morning of May 20 it was not burning anymore). This video is not clear enough to see soldiers shooting though.
There is quite a loyalty problem in the Border Police and also in the Military. Most Border Police personal i spoke with then were not glad to be there, and had quite open sympathies with the Red Shirts. Military was quite mixed, especially in the earlier stages there were soldiers who refused to fight against Red Shirts, such as in the ThaiCom incident, where only Col. Apirat from the 11th infantry regiment with 20 something soldiers was fighting while the majority of troops put their weapons down.
The Don Muang incident was also signified by incredible incompetence, such as closing Vibhavadi Road before civilians cars could leave the area, using those civilians cars as cover while shooting at Red Shirts, failure to secure the high ground, leaving Red Shirts throwing things from the elevated Tollway at the security forces. This incident ended with a soldier killed by friendly fire in front of me (the government has still difficulties to acknowledge this fact).
The “Black Shirts” are quite an interesting issue, but before commenting on them i need more time to investigate and corroborate information i already received, and then have to bring the issue into context.
I believe that not just the police force needs massive restructuring, but also the military. But, Thai society has the armed forces that reflects its society – corruption and informal power distribution is more than evident in all sectors of society. I believe that we can’t single out just one element of this increasing mess.
Petroleum revenue has been used to cover up all the govt excesses – read corruption and handouts to umnoputras – This will come to an end in the next 10-15 years. Malaysia has reached “peak oil” since 3 years ago. (“Peak oil” when new discovery just matches extraction) Unless new discoveries are made in deep water exploration, Malaysia will be in a financial hole!
The govt has been putting off real capital creation economic plans due to “racial” sensitivities. Great papers with great plans have been written, commissioned by the govt, but findings have always been unpalateable to the BN govt.
Life itself is quite easy in Malaysia, as a large propotion of Malaysia rationalise the condition they have to live in – three meals and a roof over their head – The quality of live issue is far from their minds. Those who need quality of life have it, as they are generally well educated or from business (also umnputras) family.
How to fix things – NO real plans as the BN govt consist of short term thinkers and everything is just fine as it is.
At the end of the day, this is obviously a red-leaning site.
It’s obviously up to the site’s owners but it would be a shame if those not in agreement with the general feelings of the majority posters weren’t here. You would be left with one hand clapping or would it leave just communal stroking?
We used to judge people by their enemies, but with the UDD we can also judge them by their friends. Not only such delightful characters like Chalerm, Chavalit and of course Thaksin, but also the Thai police force, that well known defender of Thai democracy and human rights. As they say, with friends like these who needs…
Les Abbey #41 – Unbeleivable!
Unlike Chamlong, it’s clear Jatuporn & Nattawud actually wanted to save lives, and like David Brown says, they are definitely NOT cowards.
we now know of course that Chamlong is part of the military and favoured, he was running yet another US-inspired covert operation – playing with peoples lives
the script didnt call for him to be killed
possibly the script doesnt call for the redshirt leaders to be killed either, for a different reason, the government may be wary of creating martyrs
I believe Chamlong knew but the redshirt leaders cannot know and, like Thaksin, must assume (accidental?) assassination is a high probability
June 2, 2010, Khaosod newspaper reported that Sonthi Limthongkul is charged with “lese majeste” because he distributed “Da Torpedo’s speech” to the public. Sonthi Limthongkul has to report to the prosecutor of the Supreme Court, Criminal Division around mid of this month June 2010. If he refuses to appear to hear the charge, a warrant will be issued to arrest him.
If convicted, he’ll be spending 15 years in jail.
_________________________________________
р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 2 р╕бр╕┤.р╕в. р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕вр╕зр╕╕р╕Тр╕┤ р╕лр╕ер╣Ир╕нр╕Хр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕╣р╕е р╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕▒р╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕╣р╕Зр╕кр╕╕р╕Ф р╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕╖р╕Ър╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕Фр╕╡р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤ р╕ер╕┤р╣Йр╕бр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕╕р╕е р╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕Юр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╕бр╕┤р╕Хр╕гр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕в р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕лр╕▓р╕лр╕бр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Ър╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕╣р╕З р╕Щр╕│р╕Др╕│р╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕ир╕гр╕▒р╕вр╕Вр╕нр╕З р╕Щ.р╕к.р╕Фр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╕╡ р╕Кр╕▓р╕Нр╣Ар╕Кр╕┤р╕Зр╕ир╕┤р╕ер╕Ыр╕░р╕Бр╕╕р╕е р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕Фр╕▓ р╕Хр╕нр╕гр╣Мр╕Ыр╕┤р╣Вр╕Ф р╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Ьр╕вр╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╕Лр╣Йр╕│
Recent images leaving the strongest impression, the other ones I will recall are the photos of Samak (with his wife, if I remember correctly) being harassed by a small group of PAD supporters in some airport as he was on his way for cancer treatment in the US. (People who moan about buildings being burned down might also ponder that sort of behavior for a moment.)
As for 1976, any extensive and honest accounting is not likely to happen for a long time, for the same reason that a certain subject can only be discussed quite gingerly on Internet forums that don’t wish to be blocked in Thailand. (Any mystifed reader can start by Googling the phrase “Wat Bovornives” and puzzle out the rest.) There’s no question which institution Samak was close to in that era.
as you know, its the military generals that rule Thailand, in the past they may have been the tool of the royals and business families but the generals have been given so much rope they are now the controllers.
the police know this only too well, they are subject to retired and active military interference all the time, so it is incredibly difficult for them to do their job.
if the military were banned from any action inside Thailand, including the south and the borders then we could see the police doing their job
until the police are guaranteed of their own role exclusive of military interference I believe it is foolish to blame them for inaction or failures
for example:
at the airport the police knew the military was supporting the PAD
in the south the military are engaged in legal and illegal businesses and practise of US theories of mercenaries as proxies and do not want the insurgency to be resolved so police cannot perform any successful crime prevention
even now the military/CRES are using the police to arrest people so the military can hold and torture them, convenient obfuscation of responsibility
Yes, that is indeed Najib’s dilemma (and of the two previous Prime Ministers).
UMNO has painted itself into a corner with the “Malay Supremacy” rhetoric and is unable to extricate itself from it. BN as a coalition is unprepared to take on this “touchy” issue.
The problem is real. I am unable to quantify but there is definitely a significant percentage of the Malay population that believes Malaysia belongs to them. Electoral results have shown this time and again.
Yes, Najib is certainly looking for strategies (and so am I) on how to address this. Your suggestion about how Indonesia is doing it is certainly worth a look.
Malaysia needs all the help it can get right now to avoid serious social and political unrest.
I’m finding all of the comments re Thailand, Thailand in Crisis, Thaksin, Abhisit…etc., etc all rather interesting. If my friend has been shot with an arrow, is it best to chase after the archer? or, to heal my friend.
Yep, Thailand is in crisis, but I’m not sure as that its because of a perceived difference in wealth. The Red Shirt people I know and talk with are not talking to me about being poor. They are pissed off by the fact that there are double standards, that every time they try some democracy, it is usurped by a coup or other mechanisms.
There are just as many poor in the slums of Bangkok as there are in the villages of Issan.
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Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Chris Beale [Jun 6, 2010 at 7:17 am] — your overall analysis of events may be valid, but my question was why did you say (in an earlier comment) “America abandoned Seni Pramoj during the Thammasat 1976 massacre”? All you replied was “Kissinger and Gerald Ford at least acquiesed, but more likely sanctioned, both the build up to Thammasat, and the subsequent coup : which meant abandoning the conservative, highly pro-American Democrat Seni Pramoj.”
You’ve explained your conclusion simply by re-stating it.
What exactly did America do that leads you to the conclusion they abandoned Seni during the massacre? If your answer is they did nothing to stop it, then fair enough. But I wasn’t asking for speculation about what they did.
If Seni was “highly pro-American,” it doesn’t make sense they would abandon him, does it?
The Western aid sector in Laos – days numbered?
The Lao Government pays little serious attention to the Western agencies.
To understand how development through regional integration, and perhaps a form of neo-colonialism in Laos will proceed, here is a thought experiment:
Trace through the implications of the below, drawing upon the example of Cambodia.
========================================
*New law gives foreign investors land use rights*
Vientiane Times, 5 Jan 2010
Amendments to the newly approved Law on Investment Promotion are expected to encourage foreign investment in Laos by offering investors land use rights.
Minister of Planning and Investment Dr Sinlavong Khoutphaythoune said last week the law drafting committee had made the amendments with a view to creating an investment environment that would attract more local and overseas investment in Laos .
“We have completed the amendments and hope the president will
promulgate the law within one month,” he told Vientiane Times, adding that local and foreign investors are waiting for the government to enact the law.
The Lao National Assembly approved the revised investment promotion law in July but was unable to put it into practice after concerns were expressed over new investment incentives that allowed foreigners who invest 2.5 billion kip (US$300,000) to have land use rights.
Their view was that investors had a lot of money and would buy
residential land use rights, causing the price of land to increase.
This would mean local people would be unable to own land use rights
because residential land would be unaffordable.
The government decided to amend the law in accordance with the
recommendations of the law makers.
A member of the National Assembly said it was possible for standing
members to amend the law even though the majority of assembly members had already approved it.
Dr Sinlavong said the government decided to raise the minimum amount invested for ownership of residential land use rights in Laos from US $300,000 to US$500,000.
Foreign investors who met this requirement would only be allowed to
obtain residential land use rights in certain areas.
“ Vientiane and provincial authorities will decide on the areas where
foreign investors can obtain residential land use rights,” he said.
Investment Promotion Department Director General Houmpheng Soularay said a foreign investor would be able to obtain land use rights for as long as they continued to run a business in Laos .
Another investment official said the government’s decision to use land use rights as an investment incentive was to promote investment in real estate development, adding that the government wanted to encourage the building of houses but Lao people were often unable to buy new properties.
She said the government wanted to encourage wealthy people to live in Laos because they would also spend their money here.
A number of countries allow foreigners to buy property if they invest
a large amount of money in the country.
Investment officials said the government’s policy to use residential
land use rights as an investment incentive was one of the best ways to
encourage investment in Laos , adding that many appreciate the
peacefulness here and wanted to live in the country.
They also said foreigners find Lao people to be very friendly.
Thanong on King Bhumibol
I got so much to say about this statement, but living in a great country like Thailand, its too much of a risk to say anything about our beloved king.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
I totally agree with Prof. Ball’s positive assessment of the Thai army’s recent performance on the streets of Bangkok. In May 1992 I personally witnessed the military crackdown on anti-Suchinda protesters. On that occasion, troops armed with war weapons shot and killed dozens of unarmed protesters as they marched toward Sanam Luang. It was brutal and merciless. But nothing like that happened on May 19. This time, the army was given a very difficult task which I believe they carried out professionally and courageously. They were asked to clear thousands of “red shirt” protesters from a huge encampment covering several square kilometers in the heart of Bangkok. Most of the protesters were unarmed, or armed only with rocks, slingshots and very noisy fire-crackers. But there were also dozens, possibly hundreds, of heavily armed militants involved, many of whom were discretely positioned on the periphery of the encampment. These “black shirt” militants had already killed several soldiers during the botched security operation on April 10th, as Prof. Ball mentioned. Their arms included pistols, rifles, automatic weapons and grenade launchers. On May 19, these militants tried to stop the troops from reaching the main protest site by engaging in firefights in and around Lumphini Park. Many people were shot, both militants and soldiers, but miraculously only 15 people died in Bangkok that day (Time Magazine, May 27). While every one of these deaths is a terrible tragedy, many more lives would have been lost if the troops had panicked and started shooting indiscriminately, or if they had deliberately used lethal force against unarmed protesters. To describe what the army did that day as “a bloody crackdown” is simply inaccurate. I would say they actually avoided what could easily have turned into a terrible bloodbath by acting with tremendous restraint. To imply, by using language like “bloody crackdown”, that these soldiers can be compared to the uniformed thugs who slaughtered unarmed protesters on the streets of Bangkok in May 1992 does them a terrible injustice. I, for one, salute them.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Les Abbey #46 #47
actually in 1992 I watched the protests from Australia, at the time we understood that most live coverage was suppressed in Thailand and afterwards our recordings and others were in demand in Thailand by people wanting to know what happened
however generally we (local Australians) thought the protesters were trying yo unseat a military dictatorship and were happy to see Chamlong providing leadership
when Chamlong visited Australia shortly after the protests the Australian Foreign Affairs people contacted us and we took Chamlong and wife to the Thai Monastery at Serpentine and also in the evening to a busy food hall at Fremantle where a number of locals were really happy to greet and thank him for his role (and introduce him to their children as someone very famous)
I was already aware of the “secret war” in Laos and the mess of Cambodia and generally that the US anti-commo drive had destroyed lots of Thai innocence
but it was only after 1992 I started to look more deeply into Thai government and politics so, unfortunately, I didnt ask any useful questions of Chamlong and didnt dream them he had been involved in Laos and Vietnam and links into the sordid US military/CIA
meanwhile I am sure most of us on this forum are trying to be objective and evidence based and if you think we are red leaning you should respect thats because we believe thats where the evidence points
criticisiing our choice of friends is not useful, any evidence or even well founded beliefs will be listened to
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Superanonymous 21, and Maratjp,
The army came on to Rajaprarop on May 14th, and set up a barricade at Rangnam. That was prior to any “mob” throwing bricks or breaking into Center One. I have photos of the same.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
LesAbbey (47). I remeber how your lot used to slag off about Newin, but now that you’ve bought him off and he’s one of your own– dead silence. There’s a word for this.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Just to counter Des Balls praise for the Thai army in general, I would like to compare his comments to those made by Duncan McCargo in his book on the southern conflict.
“The Royal Thai army is a uniformed bureaucracy that does not fight wars. Unlike other powerful militaries in Southeast Asia it never waged an independence struggle and has never repelled invaders in modern times. The core pursuits of the Thai military are playing in politics and engaging in business activities ( including illegal activities, such as smuggling); when the occasion arises, commanders are not averse to killing a few dozen unarmed civilians.”
” The persistent conflation of royalist moralism with issues of security strategy and basic military competence testified to the muddled thinking of army officers and their attempts to reduce complex social and political problems to black and white alternatives. A researcher, Nattanan Wichit-aksorn wrote that the inefficiency of Thai security forces, with their excessive attachment to using and displaying force, was a major factor behind the escalation in the violence.”
Although this last statement is ostensibly about the southern crisis, I think it applies equally to the situation that played out in Bangkok, and will continue to play out over the coming years. Especially the issue of royalist moralism, where anyone taking a different view point, be it separatism in the south, or a return to electoral democracy in the case of the reds, is deemed to working against or subverting the King. Which directly leads the army to justify outbreaks of violence, with the idea of protecting the monarch.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
I would like to say a few words to Des Ball’s comments:
The 9th infantry division was involved in the events on April 10. They were supposed to cross Pinklao Bridge and join up the forces of Col. Romklao from the 2nd Division and the few armored vehicles (i think it was 4th Cavalry Regiment, without looking into my notes) there. But when faced by protesters they ran and abandoned 20 or so vehicles on the bridge at about 18.30. That is when the plan completely collapsed, and should have been abandoned, but wasn’t.
Also, Col. Romklao was not killed by a sniper, but by 2 M79 grenades launched at the military lines. Many military officers question why they have had their command post at such a forward position, and not in the back. These grenades wounded most of the commanding officers, and took out more or less the whole command structure in one go.
The 3rd Army is quite professional, but…there is also massive corruption evident there, and also much criminal involvement in the cross border drug trade.
As to the professionalism of the army during the crackdown, i somewhat disagree. Only one single “Black Shirt” was confirmed killed, and i know of one more dead of their supporting force. The remainder of the dead and wounded were unarmed guards (other than with slingshots, Bang Fai, etc.), ordinary protesters, several civilians who got into the line of fire, EMS volunteers, and journalists.
Of course it is quite difficult to work in such an environment where you have a huge number of ordinary protesters and a few commando style militant units terrorizing the military. Nevertheless, the CRES had clear rules of engagement, a clear distinction of legitimate targets and people who were not to be shot. Those rules of engagement were broken many times – i have been at several places were deadly fire was used by the military against ordinary protesters in situations where no “Black Shirts” shooting at the army were present, and shots were fired even against clearly designated rescue vehicles.
The final death toll may be quite higher than the official number, many protesters are still missing, and there is increasing evidence of missing corpses in several areas of combat. Rajaparop Road is one such place.
Increasing evidence and proof is now coming out that in several instances the military and government has been lying. One blatant example is the presence of soldiers on the BTS tracks on May 19. Anupong and Suthep stated that only on May 20th soldiers were stationed there opposite of the temple, while a video came out yesterday that shows soldiers stationed there on May 19 (the cinema is still in flames, while in the morning of May 20 it was not burning anymore). This video is not clear enough to see soldiers shooting though.
There is quite a loyalty problem in the Border Police and also in the Military. Most Border Police personal i spoke with then were not glad to be there, and had quite open sympathies with the Red Shirts. Military was quite mixed, especially in the earlier stages there were soldiers who refused to fight against Red Shirts, such as in the ThaiCom incident, where only Col. Apirat from the 11th infantry regiment with 20 something soldiers was fighting while the majority of troops put their weapons down.
The Don Muang incident was also signified by incredible incompetence, such as closing Vibhavadi Road before civilians cars could leave the area, using those civilians cars as cover while shooting at Red Shirts, failure to secure the high ground, leaving Red Shirts throwing things from the elevated Tollway at the security forces. This incident ended with a soldier killed by friendly fire in front of me (the government has still difficulties to acknowledge this fact).
The “Black Shirts” are quite an interesting issue, but before commenting on them i need more time to investigate and corroborate information i already received, and then have to bring the issue into context.
I believe that not just the police force needs massive restructuring, but also the military. But, Thai society has the armed forces that reflects its society – corruption and informal power distribution is more than evident in all sectors of society. I believe that we can’t single out just one element of this increasing mess.
Najib – coming up to the half way mark of 2010
Petroleum revenue has been used to cover up all the govt excesses – read corruption and handouts to umnoputras – This will come to an end in the next 10-15 years. Malaysia has reached “peak oil” since 3 years ago. (“Peak oil” when new discovery just matches extraction) Unless new discoveries are made in deep water exploration, Malaysia will be in a financial hole!
The govt has been putting off real capital creation economic plans due to “racial” sensitivities. Great papers with great plans have been written, commissioned by the govt, but findings have always been unpalateable to the BN govt.
Life itself is quite easy in Malaysia, as a large propotion of Malaysia rationalise the condition they have to live in – three meals and a roof over their head – The quality of live issue is far from their minds. Those who need quality of life have it, as they are generally well educated or from business (also umnputras) family.
How to fix things – NO real plans as the BN govt consist of short term thinkers and everything is just fine as it is.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Nuomi – 23
At the end of the day, this is obviously a red-leaning site.
It’s obviously up to the site’s owners but it would be a shame if those not in agreement with the general feelings of the majority posters weren’t here. You would be left with one hand clapping or would it leave just communal stroking?
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
David Brown and Jim Taylor?
We used to judge people by their enemies, but with the UDD we can also judge them by their friends. Not only such delightful characters like Chalerm, Chavalit and of course Thaksin, but also the Thai police force, that well known defender of Thai democracy and human rights. As they say, with friends like these who needs…
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
David Brown – 44
we now know of course that Chamlong is part of the military and favoured…
I guess you wasn’t here in 1992 then, because if you were you would know that wasn’t the case back then.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Thanks Jim Taylor.
Les Abbey #41 – Unbeleivable!
Unlike Chamlong, it’s clear Jatuporn & Nattawud actually wanted to save lives, and like David Brown says, they are definitely NOT cowards.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Les Abbey #41
I forgot, Chamlong
we now know of course that Chamlong is part of the military and favoured, he was running yet another US-inspired covert operation – playing with peoples lives
the script didnt call for him to be killed
possibly the script doesnt call for the redshirt leaders to be killed either, for a different reason, the government may be wary of creating martyrs
I believe Chamlong knew but the redshirt leaders cannot know and, like Thaksin, must assume (accidental?) assassination is a high probability
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
June 2, 2010, Khaosod newspaper reported that Sonthi Limthongkul is charged with “lese majeste” because he distributed “Da Torpedo’s speech” to the public. Sonthi Limthongkul has to report to the prosecutor of the Supreme Court, Criminal Division around mid of this month June 2010. If he refuses to appear to hear the charge, a warrant will be issued to arrest him.
If convicted, he’ll be spending 15 years in jail.
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р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 2 р╕бр╕┤.р╕в. р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕вр╕зр╕╕р╕Тр╕┤ р╕лр╕ер╣Ир╕нр╕Хр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕╣р╕е р╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕▒р╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕╣р╕Зр╕кр╕╕р╕Ф р╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕╖р╕Ър╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕Фр╕╡р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤ р╕ер╕┤р╣Йр╕бр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕╕р╕е р╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕Юр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╕бр╕┤р╕Хр╕гр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕в р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕лр╕▓р╕лр╕бр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Ър╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕╣р╕З р╕Щр╕│р╕Др╕│р╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕ир╕гр╕▒р╕вр╕Вр╕нр╕З р╕Щ.р╕к.р╕Фр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╕╡ р╕Кр╕▓р╕Нр╣Ар╕Кр╕┤р╕Зр╕ир╕┤р╕ер╕Ыр╕░р╕Бр╕╕р╕е р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕Фр╕▓ р╕Хр╕нр╕гр╣Мр╕Ыр╕┤р╣Вр╕Ф р╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Ьр╕вр╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╕Лр╣Йр╕│
р╕Фр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕вр╕кр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╣М р╕нр╕Шр╕┤р╕Ър╕Фр╕╡р╕нр╕▒р╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Эр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕Др╕Фр╕╡р╕нр╕▓р╕Нр╕▓ р╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Ир╕░р╕Чр╕│р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╣Бр╕Ир╣Йр╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕▒р╕Ър╕Ър╕▒р╕Нр╕Кр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤ р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ъ р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕Юр╕Ър╕нр╕▒р╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕Зр╕▓р╕Щр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕лр╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕▒р╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕б р╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Яр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ьр╕┤р╕Фр╕Рр╕▓р╕Щр╕лр╕бр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Ър╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕╣р╕З р╕гр╕▓р╕зр╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕Зр╣Ар╕Фр╕╖р╕нр╕Щ р╕бр╕┤.р╕в. р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕нр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤ р╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Щр╕▒р╕Фр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Др╕бр╣И р╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕Зр╕▓р╕Щр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Щр╕▒р╕Фр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕┤р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕бр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕Ир╕▒р╕Ър╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╣Др╕Ы.
Hero or villain? The life of Samak
Recent images leaving the strongest impression, the other ones I will recall are the photos of Samak (with his wife, if I remember correctly) being harassed by a small group of PAD supporters in some airport as he was on his way for cancer treatment in the US. (People who moan about buildings being burned down might also ponder that sort of behavior for a moment.)
As for 1976, any extensive and honest accounting is not likely to happen for a long time, for the same reason that a certain subject can only be discussed quite gingerly on Internet forums that don’t wish to be blocked in Thailand. (Any mystifed reader can start by Googling the phrase “Wat Bovornives” and puzzle out the rest.) There’s no question which institution Samak was close to in that era.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Les Abbey #40, #41
as you know, its the military generals that rule Thailand, in the past they may have been the tool of the royals and business families but the generals have been given so much rope they are now the controllers.
the police know this only too well, they are subject to retired and active military interference all the time, so it is incredibly difficult for them to do their job.
if the military were banned from any action inside Thailand, including the south and the borders then we could see the police doing their job
until the police are guaranteed of their own role exclusive of military interference I believe it is foolish to blame them for inaction or failures
for example:
at the airport the police knew the military was supporting the PAD
in the south the military are engaged in legal and illegal businesses and practise of US theories of mercenaries as proxies and do not want the insurgency to be resolved so police cannot perform any successful crime prevention
even now the military/CRES are using the police to arrest people so the military can hold and torture them, convenient obfuscation of responsibility
Najib – coming up to the half way mark of 2010
Thanks Suzie for those insightful comments.
Yes, that is indeed Najib’s dilemma (and of the two previous Prime Ministers).
UMNO has painted itself into a corner with the “Malay Supremacy” rhetoric and is unable to extricate itself from it. BN as a coalition is unprepared to take on this “touchy” issue.
The problem is real. I am unable to quantify but there is definitely a significant percentage of the Malay population that believes Malaysia belongs to them. Electoral results have shown this time and again.
Yes, Najib is certainly looking for strategies (and so am I) on how to address this. Your suggestion about how Indonesia is doing it is certainly worth a look.
Malaysia needs all the help it can get right now to avoid serious social and political unrest.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
I’m finding all of the comments re Thailand, Thailand in Crisis, Thaksin, Abhisit…etc., etc all rather interesting. If my friend has been shot with an arrow, is it best to chase after the archer? or, to heal my friend.
Yep, Thailand is in crisis, but I’m not sure as that its because of a perceived difference in wealth. The Red Shirt people I know and talk with are not talking to me about being poor. They are pissed off by the fact that there are double standards, that every time they try some democracy, it is usurped by a coup or other mechanisms.
There are just as many poor in the slums of Bangkok as there are in the villages of Issan.