As CRES continues to pursue the members of the far-reaching anti-monarchy conspiracy outlined in the “conspiracy map” (still under-emphasized in the media) we will probably see a transition from emphasis on strictures on speech and the expression of criticism to the arousal of suspicion of republican tendencies solely due to insufficiently zealous expression of pro-monarchy thinking. If you aren’t proclaiming your love from the mountaintops it could very well mean that you are harboring some doubts or otherwise impure thoughts. Whereas wearing the wrong color is an issue today, not wearing the correct color (badge, slogan, decal on your car, etc.) could in the future also be a problem. Refraining from criticism will no longer be enough; in fact, it probably isn’t enough now. Next time Pongpat Wachirabanjong makes a speech, you’d better remember to cry.
Rebecca (185) – thanks for your pity but there is no need. “Patronising” is not a term that I am aware the government has used to “discredit” anyone’s argument against them. Grateful to be proven wrong there; if you have a source then fine. But the overriding point is not my view of your perspective – patronising, I hold by that – but the flaws in your so-called argument. You claim – and let’s just regard the claim – that the government has fabricated an enemy. This flies against all the facts – including attacks using grenades in public places prior to any single shot fired by a government soldier in this recent “protest”. Just between March 14 and April 23, more than 30 grenade attacks were launched in the Thai capital, mostly at night. This is your “peaceful” Red Shirt movement. Again, the offer of early elections in November was rejected by a mob holding the city’s business district to ransom. This was not indicative of a movement genuinely interested in democracy. Some were no doubt disappointed within the Reds for this decision by their leaders but the leadership were certainly holding out for even earlier elections not because an earlier date would somehow be more principled but because it would have allowed Thaksin – who you, contra any serious analyst, naively deny any significant role in this conflict – to have some influence over the military reshuffle in September and stand a better chance of winning back his stolen fortunes.
Michael (185) – the evidence, anecdotal as it may be, points to that conclusion. Major General Khattiya Sawatdiphol himself admitted to the existence of the black shirt “Ronin warriors”, “protectors” of the Red Shirts. But believe what you like. As for my alleged patronising of the poor in the North, the reference in quotations was not to doubt that the people in the north of Thailand are poor – they are – but the characterisation of the Reds’ cause as “the poor”, when we ought to know that their plight is not the driving factor but the force behind it. A difference here. To say that their cause is being hijacked is not to patronise them, it is to observe the reality, that there are other, cynical powers with more influence pulling the strings here.
The witch hunt is on. Absurd, pathetic: Thaksin again targeted – this time as…as “terrorist”! Doesnt this make the Thai Govt (such as it is) look stupid??
Ji notes that Thai Police issue arrest warrants for 66 Red Shirts, 21 now in custody
(24 May 2010, source: Prachatai & Matichon)…
Remember Suthachai is just one of many held for their oppositional views and public activities:
In Custody
1. Dr Weng Tojirakarn (Charge1)
2. Mr Nattawut Saikua (Charge1)
3. Mr Nisit Sintuprai (Charge1)
4. Mr Wira Musikapong (Charge1)
5. Mr Kokeaw Pikuntong (Charge1)
6. Mr Kwanchai Praipana (Charge1)
7. Mr Wiputalaeng Pattanaputai (Charge1)
8. Ms Wikarnda Pakkasang (Charge 2)
9. Ms Rasamee Malam (Charge 2)
10. Ms Duangmanee Boonrut (Charge 2)
11. Mr Pumikit/Pichate Sukjindatong (Charge 2)
12. Mr Yosawarit Chooklomreu (jeng dokjik) (Charge 3)
13. Ms Siriwan Nimitsilapa (Charge 3)
14. Mr Matee Amornwutikun (Charge 4)
15. Mr Chane Kansunteeya (Charge4)
16. Mr Chayut Laicharoen (Charge 4)
17. Mr Wayupak Noree (Charge 4)
18. Mr Pasakorn/Somnuk Sirirak (Charge 4)
19. Police General Supachai Puikeawkum (Charge 4)
20. Mr Ruang-umnart Putiwong (Charge 4)
21. Mr Meechai Sinark (Charge 4)
Charge 1 = Speaking from the Rajprasong protest site
Charge 2 = Broadcasting from a community radio station
Charge 3 = Protesting at Parliament
Charge 4 = Taking part in the protest at the Democracy Monument
Also in army custody:
1. Mr. Somyot Pruksakasemsuk
2. Assistant Professor Sutachai Yimprasert (History Department, Chulalongkorn University)
Many other people are believed to be in custody, but their names have not been released. what a PATHETIC TRAGIC DRAMA
chris beale #5 Pointing out a few good apples in a completely rotten
barrel is not a very convincing argument. Chula as an academic institution has a disgusting reputation and history of falangist oppression. This institution is the antithesis of free and open thought.
Elsewhere on NM you’ll find concise critiques of the stunted nature of the Thai educational system. Systematic bullying is a constant observation in many of these critiques. In a strictly hierarchical culture such as Thailand’s the examples to be followed are set at the top. Fear is the glue that holds Thailand together. Chula has always done it’s best to supply it’s quotient.
If what you say is true – then there’s not much hope for “Thailand”.
I’ve long argued we’re about to see the break-up of “Thailand”, probably Yugoslavia-style.
Your comments and recent events, sadly, confirm my predictions.
‘You’re being a bit harsh on some Chula academics.’
I don’t think so. I think they are silent government stooges. Perhaps not as bad as the outright fascist Chulalonkorn ‘doctors’… but close.
Another government stooge at Silpakorn actually disbarred an applicant, a previously accepted applicant, from admission to the ‘university’ on the grounds that… the Yellow/Brown Shirts didn’t like her.
This is more than just cowardice… Assoc Prof Dr. Pinmanee Promsutthirakat at Silpakorn, who caved in to the Yellow fascists, is a craven coward and ought himself to be dismissed for his abject cowardice in the face of the bullying by the ultra-right wing fascist Yellow Shirts and the resulting negative example he has set for the students at Silpakorn.
After reading all the “suggestions”, I have one for New Mandala; why don’t you print this web page and send it to PM Abhisit in Thailand, with your compliments, of course?
I know people will ask, “why don’t you”, meaning me. The fact is I live in Thailand, I’m retired and I wish to live in a house, not a gaol for the rest of my days.
I’m not sure the Thai PM will be happy with all, if any, of the suggestions. I’m not even sure that the letter would arrive, but in this day and age, if it was sent by EMS or something similar, you could later entertain the readers with a blow by blow description of exactly how far it did get in Thailand, who signed for the letter, was there a reply, etc.
Perhaps if copies were also sent to, hmmmm, why not to all the Thai government agencies named?
It’s just a thought. I know, I have an evil mind.
Ambassador Kriangsak has some reasonable grounds for complaint against Hartcher’s poorly researched, sometimes factually wrong article.
But Ambassador Kriangsak should be much more worried about the imminent break-up – Yugoslavia-style – of his country, than relatively trivial Australian journalist rants.
And is n’t it interesting that this ambassador has the name Kriangsak ?
If King Bumiphol had backed the reformist, pro-democracy General Kriangsak, in the late 1970’s, “Thailand” perhaps would not be in its’ current dilemma.
I apologize for a mistake. Japan’s portion of the IMF loan was up to USD$4bn. At exchange rate of 100 yen to the dollar, its up to 400bn yen, not 50bn yen.
StanG # 169 Re :
‘..government USED TO have a better way to deal with this..”
From last year dispersal the protesters have learned that the army wouldn’t really shoot, they were not afraid to engage soldiers anymore.
To supplement this, their leaders told them time and time again that they will be victorious the moment soldiers open live fire – another reason to defy the army.
This is where Abhisit’s “international standards” strategy really failed – it failed to project the image of an overwhelming, irresistible force that would not budge no matter what resistance you put up or how many sacrifices you make.”
You may well be providing a valuable corrective here – but what are your comments re. the undoubted FACT Thailand’s military is now extremely divided ? Perhaps more divided than ever before.
The answer is ‘no’, Japan did not loan Taksin money for Thailand to repay the IMF loan. This statement of mine can be verified from the Japan side if you have friends working in any Economics faculties at Universities or Economic government departments that has access to academically publicly available national accounts databases and papers.
History:
During the 1997 financial crisis, Thailand asked the IMF for an emergency credit line of between $ 12 billion and $ 15 billion. According to easily accessible Wikipedia:
“On 11 August 1997, the IMF unveiled a rescue package for Thailand with more than $17 billion, subject to conditions such as passing laws relating to bankruptcy (reorganizing and restructuring) procedures and establishing strong regulation frameworks for banks and other financial institutions. The IMF approved on 20 August 1997, another bailout package of $3.9 billion… The increasing tax revenues allowed the country to balance its budget and repay its debts to the IMF in 2003, four years ahead of schedule.”
That IMF loan was the largest rescue package since 1994 Mexico.
The IMF loan money came from 13 countries/regions,, of which Japan is one of the largest donor (up to 50bn yen). The other countries are: Australia, Canada, China, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Indonesia, South Korea, Malaysia, Singapore and Britain.
According to the paper “Japan’s Economic Cooperation Program for
Thailand May 2006”, the only new loan request that Japan received received from Thailand from 2003 is for the project which is already being implemented – Second Bangkok International Airport Development Project. In that paper, Japan states that future large-scale loans to Thailand is likely to be project-based.
If you are interested, here are the figures for the values of development loans from Japan from 1997-2006 rounded off to nearest bn yen. Figures exclude aid/grants and technical assistance (which varies between 2-10bn for the period below)
Lee #183: Furthermore, you said, ” economic migrants from the “poor” north,” indeed! Well, all I can say is” Please don’t patronise the Thai people”. (Now, where have I seen that?)
“Until a broad consensus on what constitutes the rule of law is established in Thailand all discussion of ‘democracy’ is a waste of time.”
This we agree on and I have said as much before. I don’t know if your argument that laws would have kept Thaksin out of a second term can be sustained, however.
The elite, the monarchy, and the generals usurped the sovereignty of the people when they flicked the switch and came in with a coup d’etat. This has been happening for eighty years one way or another. If Thaksin was a crook he should have been judged accordingly by democratic institutions. He wasn’t. And this is why Abhisit has no moral authority to “uphold the law.”
It goes much deeper than Thaksin’s human rights abuses and his land deals and his business interests and his vote buying. He is hung in effigy and accused of lese majeste because he is a nig*er who got off the plantation and asked to sit at the table. He disturbed the age old power structure here in Thailand, a structure that exists at the expense of the vast majority of Thai people who toil away every day making modest livings. The monarchy and the elite and palace generals couldn’t control him, intimidate him, eliminate him because he was so rich.
As I’ve said before many times, Thaksin was corrupt, no less corrupt than the monarchy, the elite, and the palace generals, but he was a munchkin who got too close to pulling back the curtain.
So he was eliminated and now we have the projectionist and the censors bringing everyone under control a la 1984. Just take a look at what’s playing on TV’s here. Endless mind control.
Whatever Thaksin’s sins, it took a devil to upset the power structure here and this was a great thing.
Lee #183 – “The black shirts are an elite corp within the Red Shirt movement and were firing on innocent civilians, and I’ve heard this in Bangkok from numerous sources in the last week – from Thais and foreigners – who witnessed such shooting” Hmm, well it MUST be true, then.
I’ve heard a whole lot of other stories about the blackshirt snipers, BTW, as well as yours, and from Thais as well as farang who were witnesses… Like the one about them being Cambodian military crack shots, hired by Newin, or the government, or Thaksin. And other stories, all from ‘reliable sources’. Interesting, but…
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Chula academics call for “return of justice and academic freedom”
Jim Taylor – 10
The witch hunt is on. Absurd, pathetic: Thaksin again targeted
Yes, absurd. Everyone knows Thaksin was shopping in Louis Vuitton at Paris CDG at the time the red shirts were being shot.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
It can not be long before a Thai Government Minister is arrested for gross Human Rights abuses !
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
As CRES continues to pursue the members of the far-reaching anti-monarchy conspiracy outlined in the “conspiracy map” (still under-emphasized in the media) we will probably see a transition from emphasis on strictures on speech and the expression of criticism to the arousal of suspicion of republican tendencies solely due to insufficiently zealous expression of pro-monarchy thinking. If you aren’t proclaiming your love from the mountaintops it could very well mean that you are harboring some doubts or otherwise impure thoughts. Whereas wearing the wrong color is an issue today, not wearing the correct color (badge, slogan, decal on your car, etc.) could in the future also be a problem. Refraining from criticism will no longer be enough; in fact, it probably isn’t enough now. Next time Pongpat Wachirabanjong makes a speech, you’d better remember to cry.
Thai style democracy?
Daniel Wolf – 96 …… main different huh, I would say we have the power that maybe?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Rebecca (185) – thanks for your pity but there is no need. “Patronising” is not a term that I am aware the government has used to “discredit” anyone’s argument against them. Grateful to be proven wrong there; if you have a source then fine. But the overriding point is not my view of your perspective – patronising, I hold by that – but the flaws in your so-called argument. You claim – and let’s just regard the claim – that the government has fabricated an enemy. This flies against all the facts – including attacks using grenades in public places prior to any single shot fired by a government soldier in this recent “protest”. Just between March 14 and April 23, more than 30 grenade attacks were launched in the Thai capital, mostly at night. This is your “peaceful” Red Shirt movement. Again, the offer of early elections in November was rejected by a mob holding the city’s business district to ransom. This was not indicative of a movement genuinely interested in democracy. Some were no doubt disappointed within the Reds for this decision by their leaders but the leadership were certainly holding out for even earlier elections not because an earlier date would somehow be more principled but because it would have allowed Thaksin – who you, contra any serious analyst, naively deny any significant role in this conflict – to have some influence over the military reshuffle in September and stand a better chance of winning back his stolen fortunes.
Michael (185) – the evidence, anecdotal as it may be, points to that conclusion. Major General Khattiya Sawatdiphol himself admitted to the existence of the black shirt “Ronin warriors”, “protectors” of the Red Shirts. But believe what you like. As for my alleged patronising of the poor in the North, the reference in quotations was not to doubt that the people in the north of Thailand are poor – they are – but the characterisation of the Reds’ cause as “the poor”, when we ought to know that their plight is not the driving factor but the force behind it. A difference here. To say that their cause is being hijacked is not to patronise them, it is to observe the reality, that there are other, cynical powers with more influence pulling the strings here.
Chula academics call for “return of justice and academic freedom”
The witch hunt is on. Absurd, pathetic: Thaksin again targeted – this time as…as “terrorist”! Doesnt this make the Thai Govt (such as it is) look stupid??
Ji notes that Thai Police issue arrest warrants for 66 Red Shirts, 21 now in custody
(24 May 2010, source: Prachatai & Matichon)…
Remember Suthachai is just one of many held for their oppositional views and public activities:
In Custody
1. Dr Weng Tojirakarn (Charge1)
2. Mr Nattawut Saikua (Charge1)
3. Mr Nisit Sintuprai (Charge1)
4. Mr Wira Musikapong (Charge1)
5. Mr Kokeaw Pikuntong (Charge1)
6. Mr Kwanchai Praipana (Charge1)
7. Mr Wiputalaeng Pattanaputai (Charge1)
8. Ms Wikarnda Pakkasang (Charge 2)
9. Ms Rasamee Malam (Charge 2)
10. Ms Duangmanee Boonrut (Charge 2)
11. Mr Pumikit/Pichate Sukjindatong (Charge 2)
12. Mr Yosawarit Chooklomreu (jeng dokjik) (Charge 3)
13. Ms Siriwan Nimitsilapa (Charge 3)
14. Mr Matee Amornwutikun (Charge 4)
15. Mr Chane Kansunteeya (Charge4)
16. Mr Chayut Laicharoen (Charge 4)
17. Mr Wayupak Noree (Charge 4)
18. Mr Pasakorn/Somnuk Sirirak (Charge 4)
19. Police General Supachai Puikeawkum (Charge 4)
20. Mr Ruang-umnart Putiwong (Charge 4)
21. Mr Meechai Sinark (Charge 4)
Charge 1 = Speaking from the Rajprasong protest site
Charge 2 = Broadcasting from a community radio station
Charge 3 = Protesting at Parliament
Charge 4 = Taking part in the protest at the Democracy Monument
Also in army custody:
1. Mr. Somyot Pruksakasemsuk
2. Assistant Professor Sutachai Yimprasert (History Department, Chulalongkorn University)
Many other people are believed to be in custody, but their names have not been released. what a PATHETIC TRAGIC DRAMA
Chula academics call for “return of justice and academic freedom”
chris beale #5 Pointing out a few good apples in a completely rotten
barrel is not a very convincing argument. Chula as an academic institution has a disgusting reputation and history of falangist oppression. This institution is the antithesis of free and open thought.
Elsewhere on NM you’ll find concise critiques of the stunted nature of the Thai educational system. Systematic bullying is a constant observation in many of these critiques. In a strictly hierarchical culture such as Thailand’s the examples to be followed are set at the top. Fear is the glue that holds Thailand together. Chula has always done it’s best to supply it’s quotient.
Chula academics call for “return of justice and academic freedom”
If what you say is true – then there’s not much hope for “Thailand”.
I’ve long argued we’re about to see the break-up of “Thailand”, probably Yugoslavia-style.
Your comments and recent events, sadly, confirm my predictions.
Chula academics call for “return of justice and academic freedom”
Perhaps Professor Doktor Pinmanee is a lady. I assume the worst is perpetrated by men… but of course that’s not always true.
Chula academics call for “return of justice and academic freedom”
‘You’re being a bit harsh on some Chula academics.’
I don’t think so. I think they are silent government stooges. Perhaps not as bad as the outright fascist Chulalonkorn ‘doctors’… but close.
Another government stooge at Silpakorn actually disbarred an applicant, a previously accepted applicant, from admission to the ‘university’ on the grounds that… the Yellow/Brown Shirts didn’t like her.
This is more than just cowardice… Assoc Prof Dr. Pinmanee Promsutthirakat at Silpakorn, who caved in to the Yellow fascists, is a craven coward and ought himself to be dismissed for his abject cowardice in the face of the bullying by the ultra-right wing fascist Yellow Shirts and the resulting negative example he has set for the students at Silpakorn.
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
After reading all the “suggestions”, I have one for New Mandala; why don’t you print this web page and send it to PM Abhisit in Thailand, with your compliments, of course?
I know people will ask, “why don’t you”, meaning me. The fact is I live in Thailand, I’m retired and I wish to live in a house, not a gaol for the rest of my days.
I’m not sure the Thai PM will be happy with all, if any, of the suggestions. I’m not even sure that the letter would arrive, but in this day and age, if it was sent by EMS or something similar, you could later entertain the readers with a blow by blow description of exactly how far it did get in Thailand, who signed for the letter, was there a reply, etc.
Perhaps if copies were also sent to, hmmmm, why not to all the Thai government agencies named?
It’s just a thought. I know, I have an evil mind.
Ambassador Kriangsak in the SMH
Ambassador Kriangsak has some reasonable grounds for complaint against Hartcher’s poorly researched, sometimes factually wrong article.
But Ambassador Kriangsak should be much more worried about the imminent break-up – Yugoslavia-style – of his country, than relatively trivial Australian journalist rants.
And is n’t it interesting that this ambassador has the name Kriangsak ?
If King Bumiphol had backed the reformist, pro-democracy General Kriangsak, in the late 1970’s, “Thailand” perhaps would not be in its’ current dilemma.
Why aren’t more Thai social scientists doing this?
I’m glad that you linked to Claudio’s blog there – it’s really worth a read!
Ambassador Kriangsak in the SMH
Edit on comment #17
I apologize for a mistake. Japan’s portion of the IMF loan was up to USD$4bn. At exchange rate of 100 yen to the dollar, its up to 400bn yen, not 50bn yen.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
StanG # 169 Re :
‘..government USED TO have a better way to deal with this..”
From last year dispersal the protesters have learned that the army wouldn’t really shoot, they were not afraid to engage soldiers anymore.
To supplement this, their leaders told them time and time again that they will be victorious the moment soldiers open live fire – another reason to defy the army.
This is where Abhisit’s “international standards” strategy really failed – it failed to project the image of an overwhelming, irresistible force that would not budge no matter what resistance you put up or how many sacrifices you make.”
You may well be providing a valuable corrective here – but what are your comments re. the undoubted FACT Thailand’s military is now extremely divided ? Perhaps more divided than ever before.
Ambassador Kriangsak in the SMH
JohnH:
The answer is ‘no’, Japan did not loan Taksin money for Thailand to repay the IMF loan. This statement of mine can be verified from the Japan side if you have friends working in any Economics faculties at Universities or Economic government departments that has access to academically publicly available national accounts databases and papers.
History:
During the 1997 financial crisis, Thailand asked the IMF for an emergency credit line of between $ 12 billion and $ 15 billion. According to easily accessible Wikipedia:
“On 11 August 1997, the IMF unveiled a rescue package for Thailand with more than $17 billion, subject to conditions such as passing laws relating to bankruptcy (reorganizing and restructuring) procedures and establishing strong regulation frameworks for banks and other financial institutions. The IMF approved on 20 August 1997, another bailout package of $3.9 billion… The increasing tax revenues allowed the country to balance its budget and repay its debts to the IMF in 2003, four years ahead of schedule.”
That IMF loan was the largest rescue package since 1994 Mexico.
The IMF loan money came from 13 countries/regions,, of which Japan is one of the largest donor (up to 50bn yen). The other countries are: Australia, Canada, China, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Indonesia, South Korea, Malaysia, Singapore and Britain.
According to the paper “Japan’s Economic Cooperation Program for
Thailand May 2006”, the only new loan request that Japan received received from Thailand from 2003 is for the project which is already being implemented – Second Bangkok International Airport Development Project. In that paper, Japan states that future large-scale loans to Thailand is likely to be project-based.
If you are interested, here are the figures for the values of development loans from Japan from 1997-2006 rounded off to nearest bn yen. Figures exclude aid/grants and technical assistance (which varies between 2-10bn for the period below)
1997-2001 (PM Chuan)
1997 106bn
1998 148bn
1999 152bn
2000 96bn
2001 6bn
2001-2006 (PM Taksin)
2001 6bn
2002 45bn
2003 45bn
2004 0
2005 36bn
2006 0
2007 62bn
2008 63bn
2009* 63bn
* figure is estimate not yet final
I hope the above information is useful to you, John.
Why aren’t more Thai social scientists doing this?
Me too! Everyone should read it. Beautiful stuff.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Lee #183: Furthermore, you said, ” economic migrants from the “poor” north,” indeed! Well, all I can say is” Please don’t patronise the Thai people”. (Now, where have I seen that?)
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
Mungo #34
“Until a broad consensus on what constitutes the rule of law is established in Thailand all discussion of ‘democracy’ is a waste of time.”
This we agree on and I have said as much before. I don’t know if your argument that laws would have kept Thaksin out of a second term can be sustained, however.
The elite, the monarchy, and the generals usurped the sovereignty of the people when they flicked the switch and came in with a coup d’etat. This has been happening for eighty years one way or another. If Thaksin was a crook he should have been judged accordingly by democratic institutions. He wasn’t. And this is why Abhisit has no moral authority to “uphold the law.”
It goes much deeper than Thaksin’s human rights abuses and his land deals and his business interests and his vote buying. He is hung in effigy and accused of lese majeste because he is a nig*er who got off the plantation and asked to sit at the table. He disturbed the age old power structure here in Thailand, a structure that exists at the expense of the vast majority of Thai people who toil away every day making modest livings. The monarchy and the elite and palace generals couldn’t control him, intimidate him, eliminate him because he was so rich.
As I’ve said before many times, Thaksin was corrupt, no less corrupt than the monarchy, the elite, and the palace generals, but he was a munchkin who got too close to pulling back the curtain.
So he was eliminated and now we have the projectionist and the censors bringing everyone under control a la 1984. Just take a look at what’s playing on TV’s here. Endless mind control.
Whatever Thaksin’s sins, it took a devil to upset the power structure here and this was a great thing.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Lee #183 – “The black shirts are an elite corp within the Red Shirt movement and were firing on innocent civilians, and I’ve heard this in Bangkok from numerous sources in the last week – from Thais and foreigners – who witnessed such shooting” Hmm, well it MUST be true, then.
I’ve heard a whole lot of other stories about the blackshirt snipers, BTW, as well as yours, and from Thais as well as farang who were witnesses… Like the one about them being Cambodian military crack shots, hired by Newin, or the government, or Thaksin. And other stories, all from ‘reliable sources’. Interesting, but…
The fact is we just don’t know.