Yasin is correct and Kevina wrong. Its simple. The Reds have a terrorist element uninterested in elections and were proven to have weapons – guns, grenades etc. As StanG said, you don’t use violence and terrorism to advance elections a few months earlier than conceded. And you don’t burn down private property, banks, department stores and TV stations when you don’t get your election those few months earlier then hoped for. This is mob rule, not democracy. Sadly, there are plenty of foreigners with partners from the north of Thailand, places like Isan, who have a bias towards the Reds and this will naturally show in their commentary, journalism or cafe conversations.
I don’t think there are any serious studies to explain what “network monarchy” really is, the term was coined after McCargo extensively studied the southern problem, not Bangkok power play, which was practically non-existent at that time anyway.
It is a convenient term nevertheless, especially if you talk about “elites” opposition to Thaksin’s own network.
The limitation is that it fails to include the massive grass roots movement against Thaksin, and it implies that all decision making within this network is strictly one way, from the top, Handley’s book certainly helps to perpetuate this thinking.
So far people here are spending all their energy on building it into a working theory rather than trying to critically analyze its foundations.
The disapproval ratings on the comments above, such as “Many of them are not peaceful protesters” – which rightly draw attention to the larger picture – are reflective of the sad disillusionment that emotive stories such as Nick’s inculcate into foreigners’ awareness of this problem. Nick’s story is a micro-story that attempts to portray the Thai military as demons and the Reds as the victims in this terrible series of events. This is helped by its rawness, its emotive content – the fear, the blood, the horror – but emotions are precisely what need cooling if we are to understand the larger situation. The Reds have weapons, whether your guys had just slings or not, and were prepared to use them in public places such as Sala Daeng BTS station. Yes, water cannons might have been used, but let’s not forget that if the Reds had accepted the already generous government offer of early elections in November, you would not have been fired at in the way you were. In any case, you were in the midst of a warzone. What did you expect in all honesty?
9.11 pm, both this thread as well as the main page (http://www.newmandala.org) were still available. The “Assumptions about the next in line” post is also available. Links to Prachatai all blocked.
We use CAT Hi-net and neither NM nor the CP article are currently blocked.
However, PPT redirects to a CAPO blockpage. Prachatai generates a server error page.
We have also been informed that, during at least some of the emergency, FACTsite has been blocked for varying periods, first on True and then on CS-Loxinfo. We suspect TOT as well but, so far, never on CAT.
If we’ve been doing our job, everybody who wants to can get around the blocks. UltraSurf and other circumvention software are also blocked by some ISPs. Easy to circumvent and download the UltraSurf application. Has anyone used UltraSurf against Thai censorship?
Readers may have noticed MICT finally admitted to blocking more than 50K websites (we think that number is a bit low) but they have not been as thorough in blocking anonymous proxies.
Please let us know if your ISP appears to be blocking FACT and what happens. If there is blockpage, please send it. thanks.
When the only point you can make is to criticize the medium, you are confirming the point I made at the top.
What is the connection between anti-establishment and having “lost the very essence of its humanity and decency.” I suspect that what you want to say is “this article is questioning my faith in Chakrism and you are an apostate”. If so, you are right. And there will be many more. Get used to it.
Why does every article have to deal with the reds. Isn’t the the collapse of the great cult a big enough issue to warrant its own story?
Why do the red shirts have to be implicated in everything? There arguably has been a distinction between Bhumibolists and Royalists since before the UDD movement even came about.
Andrew and Nicholas, you should start a new open thread called “The Epic Flame Red Shirts Forum.” Meanwhile, there are many other areas of contemporary Thai studies that are worthy of exploration.
@obno1, how is this discussion of Bhumibolism and Royalism lese majeste?
Adoration of the monarchy in Thailand is fundamentally unstable. People must certainly be aware that they are descendants of conquered peoples. Phaya Chakri conquered their kingdoms, then the third Chakri king destroyed their capital of Vientiane, dispersing them throughout the hinterlands (Isaan) or enslaving them, sending some to build the canals in Bangkok, the Chao Phraya fortifications, the royal barges (all of these projects entailed vast casualties) and to work sugar plantations in the South. While they spent two hundred years in hardship, the Chakri house accumulated a fortune that has become one of the largest in the world. It would be surprising if they felt no resentment.
Almost all the political websites are blocked even twitter. But still can receive twitter messege on mobile phone. Couldn’t watch Khun Pleum’s Daily Dose on Voice TV.
Am I in Burma?
Luckily, NM is still here for me.
If anybody knows Dan Rivers from CNN, please warn him, He might be in danger. His name has been repeatedly mentioned during the radio talk show in a very negative way. His news report was viewed as against Thai governmet. It’s a kind of provoking the listening and blame on Dan. This is serious than the letter because it reaches large group of listeners. Very scary. I couldn’t believe my eyes.
Today in the afternoon, under Laoprao expressway, about 200 people gathered to talk and share feeling after the situation. What to do at home, couldn’t get anything on internet. We shared some cruel pictures from the crackdown, someone told us about the killing inside the temple after UDD leaders surrendered. It was a very peaceful gathering. Not long, the policemen came and told us that we broke the law, under the state of emergency we can’t get together more than 5 people and talk about politics. Then, about 100 special forces (to handle mobs and riots) came. Good thing, no guns. So, we had to go home.
There are a number of videos on youtube showing Nuttawut and Arisman telling the audience to set Bangkok on fire. What do you think should happen to these guys now?
Updater @# 89 :
thank you very much for this accurate and detailed information. This is what I look for on NM – not endless petty point-scoring propaganda.
Again – thank you.
Big C and Diana in Pattani do great business, actually. 🙂 At least, they always seem to be jam-packed when I go. I chuckle a bit when you mention Lanna & Isan seceding, as I can just imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth down here. Those hayseeds have a sit-in for one month, burn some stuff and, voila, get independence?! WTF, man! (I know, I know, it would take many dreary years of guerrilla warfare, but that’s how I imagine it being framed.)
Australian Foreign Minister Stephen Smiths’ remark that talk of a “civil war’ is “prejorative” is nonsense, for political gain.
Everyone knows talk about a “civil war’ has been rife and widespread in “Thailand” since Yelllow Shirt PAD leader Sondhi Lim first, in 2006, said :
“civil war has now begun”.
“Access to this information is temporarily curtailed through the powers of the State of Emergency decree 2005 , by order of the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situations.”
Re: Chris Beale’s questions about BigC Supermarket
Big C is part of Central Group, same with Central World shopping mall. The Central Group is owned by Chirathivat family, who are said to be financial supporters of the Democrats.
Chris, the following may also be of interest to you. It is a vdo of Red Shirt Englishman who threatened to loot and burn down Central World shopping mall not long before it happened.
After the vdo was exposed, he was later interviewed by British press, here are some things he said:
“I did not do any looting. I did not set fire to anything, but those who did are my brothers. I am not worthy of them.”
“The attack on Channel 3 was organized. I saw the leaders giving directions. The Red Shirts hated Channel 3. There was a BMW showroom next door which was totally untouched.”
“My friends are professionals. Some of them are ex-police and ex-army. They know exactly what they are doing…. The war is over for the time being. Now everybody is looking for red-shirts. But in two months time things will start up again. The attacks will begin”.
Something of essence is amiss in the New Mandala site. I could not put my finger on it before . . . but I could sense the strong anti-Thai establishment theme in New Mandala.
It is so strong New Mandala had lost the very essence of its humanity and decency.
Take a look at your current theme – – no mention, no highlight and a deliberate evasion of the devastation on lives and properties of the Thais as a result of the violence and rampage of the violent Reds.
Is the left-leaning politics of New Mandala so one-sided as to ignore the wrongs and dark side of the Thai Reds, a movement New Mandala so openly champions?
Yes – this is very nice stuff from Stephen Smith and Alexander Downer (they’ve finally caught up on their Economist readings !) – but the fact is all their pronouncements would have carried much more weight – six weeks ago !!
By now – it is probably too little, too late.
The break-up of “Thailand” is now almost inevitable.
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Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Yasin is correct and Kevina wrong. Its simple. The Reds have a terrorist element uninterested in elections and were proven to have weapons – guns, grenades etc. As StanG said, you don’t use violence and terrorism to advance elections a few months earlier than conceded. And you don’t burn down private property, banks, department stores and TV stations when you don’t get your election those few months earlier then hoped for. This is mob rule, not democracy. Sadly, there are plenty of foreigners with partners from the north of Thailand, places like Isan, who have a bias towards the Reds and this will naturally show in their commentary, journalism or cafe conversations.
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Del # 7 – that’s a bit rich :
everything you say could be turned around to apply to the Thai wealthy classes’ treatment of their poor.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
JJ:
“Well with the inflammatory one-sided stuff you’re publishing, surprised?
“How about some balanced reporting?”
That’s it! MICT is looking for balanced reporting; anything else they block.
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
I don’t think there are any serious studies to explain what “network monarchy” really is, the term was coined after McCargo extensively studied the southern problem, not Bangkok power play, which was practically non-existent at that time anyway.
It is a convenient term nevertheless, especially if you talk about “elites” opposition to Thaksin’s own network.
The limitation is that it fails to include the massive grass roots movement against Thaksin, and it implies that all decision making within this network is strictly one way, from the top, Handley’s book certainly helps to perpetuate this thinking.
So far people here are spending all their energy on building it into a working theory rather than trying to critically analyze its foundations.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
The disapproval ratings on the comments above, such as “Many of them are not peaceful protesters” – which rightly draw attention to the larger picture – are reflective of the sad disillusionment that emotive stories such as Nick’s inculcate into foreigners’ awareness of this problem. Nick’s story is a micro-story that attempts to portray the Thai military as demons and the Reds as the victims in this terrible series of events. This is helped by its rawness, its emotive content – the fear, the blood, the horror – but emotions are precisely what need cooling if we are to understand the larger situation. The Reds have weapons, whether your guys had just slings or not, and were prepared to use them in public places such as Sala Daeng BTS station. Yes, water cannons might have been used, but let’s not forget that if the Reds had accepted the already generous government offer of early elections in November, you would not have been fired at in the way you were. In any case, you were in the midst of a warzone. What did you expect in all honesty?
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
9.11 pm, both this thread as well as the main page (http://www.newmandala.org) were still available. The “Assumptions about the next in line” post is also available. Links to Prachatai all blocked.
TOT DSL in Nonthaburi.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
We use CAT Hi-net and neither NM nor the CP article are currently blocked.
However, PPT redirects to a CAPO blockpage. Prachatai generates a server error page.
We have also been informed that, during at least some of the emergency, FACTsite has been blocked for varying periods, first on True and then on CS-Loxinfo. We suspect TOT as well but, so far, never on CAT.
If we’ve been doing our job, everybody who wants to can get around the blocks. UltraSurf and other circumvention software are also blocked by some ISPs. Easy to circumvent and download the UltraSurf application. Has anyone used UltraSurf against Thai censorship?
Readers may have noticed MICT finally admitted to blocking more than 50K websites (we think that number is a bit low) but they have not been as thorough in blocking anonymous proxies.
Please let us know if your ISP appears to be blocking FACT and what happens. If there is blockpage, please send it. thanks.
facthaiATgmailDOTcom
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Del,
When the only point you can make is to criticize the medium, you are confirming the point I made at the top.
What is the connection between anti-establishment and having “lost the very essence of its humanity and decency.” I suspect that what you want to say is “this article is questioning my faith in Chakrism and you are an apostate”. If so, you are right. And there will be many more. Get used to it.
Why does every article have to deal with the reds. Isn’t the the collapse of the great cult a big enough issue to warrant its own story?
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Why do the red shirts have to be implicated in everything? There arguably has been a distinction between Bhumibolists and Royalists since before the UDD movement even came about.
Andrew and Nicholas, you should start a new open thread called “The Epic Flame Red Shirts Forum.” Meanwhile, there are many other areas of contemporary Thai studies that are worthy of exploration.
@obno1, how is this discussion of Bhumibolism and Royalism lese majeste?
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Adoration of the monarchy in Thailand is fundamentally unstable. People must certainly be aware that they are descendants of conquered peoples. Phaya Chakri conquered their kingdoms, then the third Chakri king destroyed their capital of Vientiane, dispersing them throughout the hinterlands (Isaan) or enslaving them, sending some to build the canals in Bangkok, the Chao Phraya fortifications, the royal barges (all of these projects entailed vast casualties) and to work sugar plantations in the South. While they spent two hundred years in hardship, the Chakri house accumulated a fortune that has become one of the largest in the world. It would be surprising if they felt no resentment.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
8:45 pm, Bangkok
Almost all the political websites are blocked even twitter. But still can receive twitter messege on mobile phone. Couldn’t watch Khun Pleum’s Daily Dose on Voice TV.
Am I in Burma?
Luckily, NM is still here for me.
If anybody knows Dan Rivers from CNN, please warn him, He might be in danger. His name has been repeatedly mentioned during the radio talk show in a very negative way. His news report was viewed as against Thai governmet. It’s a kind of provoking the listening and blame on Dan. This is serious than the letter because it reaches large group of listeners. Very scary. I couldn’t believe my eyes.
Today in the afternoon, under Laoprao expressway, about 200 people gathered to talk and share feeling after the situation. What to do at home, couldn’t get anything on internet. We shared some cruel pictures from the crackdown, someone told us about the killing inside the temple after UDD leaders surrendered. It was a very peaceful gathering. Not long, the policemen came and told us that we broke the law, under the state of emergency we can’t get together more than 5 people and talk about politics. Then, about 100 special forces (to handle mobs and riots) came. Good thing, no guns. So, we had to go home.
Maybe, I’m in Burma after all.
Burning, curfew
Mikeize
There are a number of videos on youtube showing Nuttawut and Arisman telling the audience to set Bangkok on fire. What do you think should happen to these guys now?
Burning, curfew
Updater @# 89 :
thank you very much for this accurate and detailed information. This is what I look for on NM – not endless petty point-scoring propaganda.
Again – thank you.
Burning, curfew
Chris Beale@87-
Big C and Diana in Pattani do great business, actually. 🙂 At least, they always seem to be jam-packed when I go. I chuckle a bit when you mention Lanna & Isan seceding, as I can just imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth down here. Those hayseeds have a sit-in for one month, burn some stuff and, voila, get independence?! WTF, man! (I know, I know, it would take many dreary years of guerrilla warfare, but that’s how I imagine it being framed.)
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Australian Foreign Minister Stephen Smiths’ remark that talk of a “civil war’ is “prejorative” is nonsense, for political gain.
Everyone knows talk about a “civil war’ has been rife and widespread in “Thailand” since Yelllow Shirt PAD leader Sondhi Lim first, in 2006, said :
“civil war has now begun”.
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
xnx, here is the answer to your question:
http://www.newmandala.org/2010/05/21/new-mandala-temporarily-curtailed/
“Access to this information is temporarily curtailed through the powers of the State of Emergency decree 2005 , by order of the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situations.”
Burning, curfew
Re: Chris Beale’s questions about BigC Supermarket
Big C is part of Central Group, same with Central World shopping mall. The Central Group is owned by Chirathivat family, who are said to be financial supporters of the Democrats.
Chris, the following may also be of interest to you. It is a vdo of Red Shirt Englishman who threatened to loot and burn down Central World shopping mall not long before it happened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_qz6oomb8
After the vdo was exposed, he was later interviewed by British press, here are some things he said:
“I did not do any looting. I did not set fire to anything, but those who did are my brothers. I am not worthy of them.”
“The attack on Channel 3 was organized. I saw the leaders giving directions. The Red Shirts hated Channel 3. There was a BMW showroom next door which was totally untouched.”
“My friends are professionals. Some of them are ex-police and ex-army. They know exactly what they are doing…. The war is over for the time being. Now everybody is looking for red-shirts. But in two months time things will start up again. The attacks will begin”.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2982225/The-Brit-thug-of-bloody-Bangkok.html
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Something of essence is amiss in the New Mandala site. I could not put my finger on it before . . . but I could sense the strong anti-Thai establishment theme in New Mandala.
It is so strong New Mandala had lost the very essence of its humanity and decency.
Take a look at your current theme – – no mention, no highlight and a deliberate evasion of the devastation on lives and properties of the Thais as a result of the violence and rampage of the violent Reds.
Is the left-leaning politics of New Mandala so one-sided as to ignore the wrongs and dark side of the Thai Reds, a movement New Mandala so openly champions?
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
You guys are mad posting this stuff
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Yes – this is very nice stuff from Stephen Smith and Alexander Downer (they’ve finally caught up on their Economist readings !) – but the fact is all their pronouncements would have carried much more weight – six weeks ago !!
By now – it is probably too little, too late.
The break-up of “Thailand” is now almost inevitable.