It looks as if a major push will begin very shortly. There are troop movements and reinforcements. I suspect this evening we will witness (if they don’t kill all the journalists as well) a horrific body count.
Lee Marvin, that’s strange: my source says that the palace rejected the roadmap.
Note that one day after the roadmap was proposed, the military continued to threaten the red shirt leaders with arrest. Abhisit wasn’t following protocol, which put the palace in a quite embarrassing situation.
We are hearing a lot from a government spokesman and CRES. Where is the Prime Minister? When was the last time he made any public pronouncement or appearance? This may be normal for Thailand, but where I come from the nation’s leader would be expected to assume a prominent leadership role during times of national crisis. It’s been several days now since mayhem erupted in the capital. Come to think of it, we’re not hearing much from Suthep either.
No, I am not suggesting that they have been incapacitated, have fled the country or anything equally absurd, but it does seem odd.
The questions are slightly biased. There is another set of questions, which might be as relevant. Why did Abhisit not dissolve parliament? Thailand is well known for its commissions. Why was no commission set up with representatives of the protesters and trusted persons to find a solution? Why was the army called in? Usually internal conflicts are handled by the police, or special police units trained to handle riots in a less deadly way. Is the army, police and government simply incompetent to handle dissenting views? Why is there always the reference to Thaksin? Does anybody seriously think that so many people are risking there life for the millionaire? Is it the attempt to draw a parallel? The protesters love Thaksin, while the others love others? Perhaps it is exactly because the beloved guys have lost a lot of their importance that the government is unwilling or rather unable to engage with the protests in a non-deadly way? Why have the demands of the protesters hardly ever been discussed in a serious way in the national and international media?
Some dude decided that pointing a laser at troops position was a fun thing to do. He obviously forgot that lasers were used to direct grenade fire on April 10, or he thought it was one big joke anyway. Or was he testing the army response and accuracy?
What is a better way to attract fire? Bring in a replica RPG launcher?
Let me explain to you the reason why they refused to withdraw after Apisit proposal. First, only some of the red-leaders will be released. The government will arrest those hard cores leaders without giving them any bail. They will separate those hardcores in some secluded camps. They might disappear forever, we will never see them again. There were some argument after Veera agreed with the government. Many of them disagreed with Veera by saying since we came all the way together, we should survive together. If some survive and some are killed, then it is unfair. After the argument, some leaders withdraw but Korkaew Pikulthong came back last night after many innocent people were killed. He told the crowd that he is willing to die after seeing many life lost.
Secondly, if you look deeply into Apisit proposal you can see that the proposal was nothing in it. He did not have any true intention of giving up power at all. He mentioned about the election without mentioning the date for the house dissolution. When he was asked in the parliament about the dissolution date by an opposition member of parliament, his answer was, if everything was right, we will have an election but if something go wrong, we will not have an election. What was the meaning of that answer? He has no intention of giving any election at all. It was just a trick to buy time or to drag his feet. If they think they can win, they will go to the ballot box but if they know that they will lose they will then use their power to postpone it. You can never trust them, they are bunch of monsters who drink blood as their food. They are willing to kill thousands of innocent people to keep their power.
With these two reasons, do you think the red-shirt can disperse? I also believe that the moment they call off the demonstration, one by one of core leaders will be killed. Sharp shooters will be sent to shoot them at their homes, like shooting terrorists. They might be killed by using some lorry trucks to crush them, making it look like an accident. Some might disappear secretly, will not be seen or heard again. Don”t forget that many elites in Thailand are untouchable, they are above the law. Nobody can touch them even they order the killings. DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD CALL OFF THE DEMONSTRATION?
Flimsy technicalities? You mean like voter fraud? What everyone keeps conveniently forgetting is that Thaksin himself was an autocrat, with open intentions of creating a Singapore-esque one party system.
His close ties with Cambodia’s Hun Sen, proves he has no aversion to murderous despotism, nor literally selling one’s nation out from under its people. Hun Sen’s self-installed, autocracy has just recently sold 100,000 hectacres to an Australian investment firm after arresting the peasants that tried to stop the sale. When you consider Thaksin’s close ties to big business in Washington, including the equity firm Carlyle Group, can’t be hard to imagine him having his own “fire sale.”
So keep bleeding your hearts out for Thaksin and his red shirts. I think its pitiful they’ve been convinced to spill their blood on the streets for this shill sellout and full-on elitist, but what will be sadder yet is if Thaksin somehow does manage to return, and destroys the lives of everyone, prai and amataya alike.
Can anyone shed light on the rationale for prevalent use of slingshots, bottle rockets, bamboo spears by the protesters? Given that rifles and hand guns are present in many households, are the crude arms being used as part of a political communications strategy? This mis-match in the weaponry between UDD and the army makes for powerful media imagery…but at what price?
I must confess to posting under an alias, I’m really mossybkk! I feel like buying Les a beer, at an appropriate venue, the Crown Royal on one of the Kings group 😉 As someone who’s posts seem not to conform with the NM doctrine i see my comments fading away. Is this rating system not a devious 21stC form of censorship designed to eliminated “wrong thought”. How often do i read here about the bias of certain media organisations?
“But there is a much more fundamental reason for the failure of the red shirts to withdraw and the violent immolation of Ahbisit’s road map: Thailand has lost faith in electoral democracy.”
I’m sorry but I think this argument is a bit difficult to accept. It would then follow that, should Ahbisit immediately step down and there be an election as soon as practically possible, there would still be no red shirt dispersal and they would continue to occupy central Bangkok due to this loss of faith in “electoral democracy” – despite the universal acceptance that the party that supports them would surely prevail in such an election. But hasn’t an immediate dissolution been the only stated objective of the movement all along?
In fact, a November 14th election almost certainly would have been favorable to the average red shirt given the electoral realities. Whether it would have been favorable to the movement’s various leaders – all with somewhat different personal objectives in play (in a culture where self-interest usually trumps the greater good) – might be an open question. Perhaps this contributed to the hesitation and confusion from the red leadership following the admittedly flawed “road map” offer that might have ended this debacle. Nevertheless, in hindsight, the “road map” (really, a Nov. 14 election) surely held far greater promise to the average red shirt than anything that the current fighting and chaos might ultimately bring to them.
Military and red-shirts are now having a battle at the Complete Condo building on 18 Rajaprarop — prior to Din Daeng intersection and after Soi Rangnam. A group of red-shirts set up a barricade down the street. When they began to get injured, they ran down into our compound. The military quickly overtook the barricade and there are at least 5 snipers entering the grounds of our building to flush out the remaining red shirts. Included in this group are a number of medics and media. As well as the condo’s own security guards. The gunfire is deafening here.
Why didn’t the red shirts accept Abhisit’s road map ? Because it was so full of conditional “ifs” and “buts” that it was nothing but smoke, mirrors and “you can go home now.”
The red shirts knew that they couldn’t trust Abhisit, who we call Prime Minister Opposite in the best Oxford accent we can muster, because they figured that the man would say or do anything to get the red shirts to leave Bangkok. Once they left, he would find a dozen reasons to cancel the promised elections on November 14, not the least of which would be the lack of progress on any the impossibly tough issues he buried in his road map like mine fields.
Meanwhile, if some friendly judges managed to put many of the red shirts leaders in jail without bail, and the phony state of emergency persisted to fight all those invisible terrorists, you’d be lucky to see those November 14 elections before the 12th of Never.
Contrary to your hypothesis that the red shirts’ flaw is that thay have lost faith in democracy, they simply had no faith in the man whose road map looked more like a trap door. If you can’t trust the guy to honor the deal, then you really have no option but to stick it out and hope that you can outlast him. They’re testing that theory right now.
Remember, too, that Abhisit’s offer of an election in November was only on condition that ALL the points in the roadmap were implemented. At a later date it would have been easy for Abhisit to claim that some of them hadn’t, so diffusely formulated were they, and this would have given him grounds for calling off the election after all. I think this roadmap was a sham all along.
Rajaprarop is again a battleground. Two barricades were set up by red shirts. Shortly thereafter shooting began, with some injuries. The military has just overtaken the first barricade. No doubt there will be more casualties when this is over. They have posted signs that this is a “life rounds” zone.
From looking at ratings of my comments in another thread I figure there are only about twenty people with chips on the shoulders, practically exactly the same number for each of five or six comments regardless of the content.
Only twenty?
Now I know the extent of the “mainstream New Mandala”.
Personally I don’t think I will conform to their standards of “quality comments” but others might be really discouraged from participating.
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Bangkok at war
It looks as if a major push will begin very shortly. There are troop movements and reinforcements. I suspect this evening we will witness (if they don’t kill all the journalists as well) a horrific body count.
Bangkok at war
where. is. Abhisit.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Lee Marvin, that’s strange: my source says that the palace rejected the roadmap.
Note that one day after the roadmap was proposed, the military continued to threaten the red shirt leaders with arrest. Abhisit wasn’t following protocol, which put the palace in a quite embarrassing situation.
Bangkok at war
See the results of sniper shootings, caution, graphic content.
http://www.khaosod.co.th/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRJM016ZzVNVGM1T0E9PQ==
mostly from AP news
Bangkok at war
@Mike you are spot on: Tak Bai. Who was at the top then?
http://www.google.co.th/#hl=en&source=hp&q=tak+bai&aq=f&aqi=g1g-m2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=95dc5484ea159daf
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Give us the details of the voter fraud, Tony.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
We are hearing a lot from a government spokesman and CRES. Where is the Prime Minister? When was the last time he made any public pronouncement or appearance? This may be normal for Thailand, but where I come from the nation’s leader would be expected to assume a prominent leadership role during times of national crisis. It’s been several days now since mayhem erupted in the capital. Come to think of it, we’re not hearing much from Suthep either.
No, I am not suggesting that they have been incapacitated, have fled the country or anything equally absurd, but it does seem odd.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
The questions are slightly biased. There is another set of questions, which might be as relevant. Why did Abhisit not dissolve parliament? Thailand is well known for its commissions. Why was no commission set up with representatives of the protesters and trusted persons to find a solution? Why was the army called in? Usually internal conflicts are handled by the police, or special police units trained to handle riots in a less deadly way. Is the army, police and government simply incompetent to handle dissenting views? Why is there always the reference to Thaksin? Does anybody seriously think that so many people are risking there life for the millionaire? Is it the attempt to draw a parallel? The protesters love Thaksin, while the others love others? Perhaps it is exactly because the beloved guys have lost a lot of their importance that the government is unwilling or rather unable to engage with the protests in a non-deadly way? Why have the demands of the protesters hardly ever been discussed in a serious way in the national and international media?
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
How people die of stupidity:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1278378/Thai-protester-shot-head-taunting-armed-troops-laser-pointer.html
Some dude decided that pointing a laser at troops position was a fun thing to do. He obviously forgot that lasers were used to direct grenade fire on April 10, or he thought it was one big joke anyway. Or was he testing the army response and accuracy?
What is a better way to attract fire? Bring in a replica RPG launcher?
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Let me explain to you the reason why they refused to withdraw after Apisit proposal. First, only some of the red-leaders will be released. The government will arrest those hard cores leaders without giving them any bail. They will separate those hardcores in some secluded camps. They might disappear forever, we will never see them again. There were some argument after Veera agreed with the government. Many of them disagreed with Veera by saying since we came all the way together, we should survive together. If some survive and some are killed, then it is unfair. After the argument, some leaders withdraw but Korkaew Pikulthong came back last night after many innocent people were killed. He told the crowd that he is willing to die after seeing many life lost.
Secondly, if you look deeply into Apisit proposal you can see that the proposal was nothing in it. He did not have any true intention of giving up power at all. He mentioned about the election without mentioning the date for the house dissolution. When he was asked in the parliament about the dissolution date by an opposition member of parliament, his answer was, if everything was right, we will have an election but if something go wrong, we will not have an election. What was the meaning of that answer? He has no intention of giving any election at all. It was just a trick to buy time or to drag his feet. If they think they can win, they will go to the ballot box but if they know that they will lose they will then use their power to postpone it. You can never trust them, they are bunch of monsters who drink blood as their food. They are willing to kill thousands of innocent people to keep their power.
With these two reasons, do you think the red-shirt can disperse? I also believe that the moment they call off the demonstration, one by one of core leaders will be killed. Sharp shooters will be sent to shoot them at their homes, like shooting terrorists. They might be killed by using some lorry trucks to crush them, making it look like an accident. Some might disappear secretly, will not be seen or heard again. Don”t forget that many elites in Thailand are untouchable, they are above the law. Nobody can touch them even they order the killings. DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD CALL OFF THE DEMONSTRATION?
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Flimsy technicalities? You mean like voter fraud? What everyone keeps conveniently forgetting is that Thaksin himself was an autocrat, with open intentions of creating a Singapore-esque one party system.
His close ties with Cambodia’s Hun Sen, proves he has no aversion to murderous despotism, nor literally selling one’s nation out from under its people. Hun Sen’s self-installed, autocracy has just recently sold 100,000 hectacres to an Australian investment firm after arresting the peasants that tried to stop the sale. When you consider Thaksin’s close ties to big business in Washington, including the equity firm Carlyle Group, can’t be hard to imagine him having his own “fire sale.”
So keep bleeding your hearts out for Thaksin and his red shirts. I think its pitiful they’ve been convinced to spill their blood on the streets for this shill sellout and full-on elitist, but what will be sadder yet is if Thaksin somehow does manage to return, and destroys the lives of everyone, prai and amataya alike.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Can anyone shed light on the rationale for prevalent use of slingshots, bottle rockets, bamboo spears by the protesters? Given that rifles and hand guns are present in many households, are the crude arms being used as part of a political communications strategy? This mis-match in the weaponry between UDD and the army makes for powerful media imagery…but at what price?
Rating comments
I must confess to posting under an alias, I’m really mossybkk! I feel like buying Les a beer, at an appropriate venue, the Crown Royal on one of the Kings group 😉 As someone who’s posts seem not to conform with the NM doctrine i see my comments fading away. Is this rating system not a devious 21stC form of censorship designed to eliminated “wrong thought”. How often do i read here about the bias of certain media organisations?
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
“But there is a much more fundamental reason for the failure of the red shirts to withdraw and the violent immolation of Ahbisit’s road map: Thailand has lost faith in electoral democracy.”
I’m sorry but I think this argument is a bit difficult to accept. It would then follow that, should Ahbisit immediately step down and there be an election as soon as practically possible, there would still be no red shirt dispersal and they would continue to occupy central Bangkok due to this loss of faith in “electoral democracy” – despite the universal acceptance that the party that supports them would surely prevail in such an election. But hasn’t an immediate dissolution been the only stated objective of the movement all along?
In fact, a November 14th election almost certainly would have been favorable to the average red shirt given the electoral realities. Whether it would have been favorable to the movement’s various leaders – all with somewhat different personal objectives in play (in a culture where self-interest usually trumps the greater good) – might be an open question. Perhaps this contributed to the hesitation and confusion from the red leadership following the admittedly flawed “road map” offer that might have ended this debacle. Nevertheless, in hindsight, the “road map” (really, a Nov. 14 election) surely held far greater promise to the average red shirt than anything that the current fighting and chaos might ultimately bring to them.
Bangkok at war
Military and red-shirts are now having a battle at the Complete Condo building on 18 Rajaprarop — prior to Din Daeng intersection and after Soi Rangnam. A group of red-shirts set up a barricade down the street. When they began to get injured, they ran down into our compound. The military quickly overtook the barricade and there are at least 5 snipers entering the grounds of our building to flush out the remaining red shirts. Included in this group are a number of medics and media. As well as the condo’s own security guards. The gunfire is deafening here.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Why didn’t the red shirts accept Abhisit’s road map ? Because it was so full of conditional “ifs” and “buts” that it was nothing but smoke, mirrors and “you can go home now.”
The red shirts knew that they couldn’t trust Abhisit, who we call Prime Minister Opposite in the best Oxford accent we can muster, because they figured that the man would say or do anything to get the red shirts to leave Bangkok. Once they left, he would find a dozen reasons to cancel the promised elections on November 14, not the least of which would be the lack of progress on any the impossibly tough issues he buried in his road map like mine fields.
Meanwhile, if some friendly judges managed to put many of the red shirts leaders in jail without bail, and the phony state of emergency persisted to fight all those invisible terrorists, you’d be lucky to see those November 14 elections before the 12th of Never.
Contrary to your hypothesis that the red shirts’ flaw is that thay have lost faith in democracy, they simply had no faith in the man whose road map looked more like a trap door. If you can’t trust the guy to honor the deal, then you really have no option but to stick it out and hope that you can outlast him. They’re testing that theory right now.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Remember, too, that Abhisit’s offer of an election in November was only on condition that ALL the points in the roadmap were implemented. At a later date it would have been easy for Abhisit to claim that some of them hadn’t, so diffusely formulated were they, and this would have given him grounds for calling off the election after all. I think this roadmap was a sham all along.
Thailand’s sideshow is over
You are saying that the reds have set fire on a few buildings around the Lumphini Stadium, but they can’t go much further than that.
Why do you think that they can’t go for the shopping malls, if things are turning very ugly?
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Rajaprarop is again a battleground. Two barricades were set up by red shirts. Shortly thereafter shooting began, with some injuries. The military has just overtaken the first barricade. No doubt there will be more casualties when this is over. They have posted signs that this is a “life rounds” zone.
Rating comments
From looking at ratings of my comments in another thread I figure there are only about twenty people with chips on the shoulders, practically exactly the same number for each of five or six comments regardless of the content.
Only twenty?
Now I know the extent of the “mainstream New Mandala”.
Personally I don’t think I will conform to their standards of “quality comments” but others might be really discouraged from participating.