I state a fact – not a correlation or causation – that there appears a trend that most Muslim majority countries are less democratic. Read this article as an example.
Another source is Freedom House which shows that most Muslim countries (not exclusively) have limited civil and political freedom.
In my mind, of all the Muslim majority countries, only Turkey and Indonesia have semblance of a functioning democracy.
Another important context for Malaysia is that civil and political liberties are curbed under the banner of “social stability” because Malaysia is a multi-ethnic, cultural and religious country. But as I have explained in numerous articles – the issues are always related to the supremacy of Islam and Malay rights. Hence any discussions on the role of the Royalty, affirmative action, quality of the public sector, are automatically seen to be an attack on Malay/Muslim rights.
As for the trend about ANU scholars, I’d encourage you to observe and analyse Southeast Asian countries closely and compare them to say Australia, New Zealand or maybe Japan or South Korea – and then let us know if our concerns about these countries are unfounded.
Before I could agree with the term “sufficiency democracy”, which basicly imply negative sense to democracy…. [(ig. political system in Thailand, which some say supports a social hierarchy.)]
Andrew and The Economist and even Schott’s Vocab are likely to agree on the negative meaning of the term,…. its like the limited level or degree of being democracy,… which I am not agree YET.
I would support to imply the “sufficiency democracy” as the “optimal level or degree of democracy” or “minimum require level or degree of democracy”.
In the sense that “Thailand are not being democracy, we needs to improve the level of democracy to be more sufficient”
As you can also have the term say “insufficient democracy”.
Is the ‘aspirin’ effect that the extrajudicial killings delivered worth 2,000 innocent life ?
What that killings achieved was a temporary pause to the drug selling without tackling any real issue since it only temporarily breakdown the retail chain but without touching any key suppliers?
You may say the subsequent governments were not doing their job in pursuing the goal of curbing drug sales, but then how would you suggest those subsequent governments do that if by the goodness of Taksin’s scheme and the great success, it costed more than 1,500 innocent life? May be you suggest setting a target number for the polices to kill the way it was done during Taksin time? Then to make that sustainable it must be a yearly target.
I feel sick writing this down but for those people supporting that scheme they probably unaware that it literally mean they support a continually killing of innocent people in order to achieve a grander goal for the country?
Sufficiency democracy requires sufficiency media and sufficiency information. Freedom against Censorship Thailand (www.facthai.wordpress.com) has now been banned.
This very very unBuddhist Thaksin “thought virus” in which Thaksin convinced rural Thais that mass extrajudicial killing is somehow justified by unproven ends of crime reduction, this is the virus you should attend to.
Mr. Fernquest, nothing endeared Thakisn to the rural folks more than his extrajudicial war on drug dealers. As one who was living in rural Northern Thailand at the time, I can attest that the program was amazingly successful in curbing to a significant degree the yaa baa epidemic, especially within the local schools, that was bringing normal life to a halt.
If there was a virus it was the drug epidemic that nobody else was willing to tackle as too many powerful interest groups were profiting, ranging from the police to the bankers. Those suffering from the “virus” were the baan nok people that A. Thongchai refers to in his article. The city schools did not see the same levels of drug dealing as the more rural schools. People in their gated newer housing developments masquerading as muu baans were not experiencing the relentless epidemics of burglaries and violence (domestic and otherwise) that had become daily features of rural life up north, causing a nostalgia for the more halcyon days of opium addiction.
I am no fan of extra judicial legal proceedings, and I do not personally condone Thaskin’s method. And although some local police used the program to settle personal scores and despite the fact that it failed to target major players (my wife lost one cousin who was a small time drug dealer) the program did greatly reduce the quantity of drugs sold in the schools. And I can think of nothing else that won over more hearts and minds in the rural north than making that huge impact upon the drug dealing network that at least moved much of the yaa baa drug dealing out of the schools.
Hamish McDonald is undoubtedly one of Australia’s finest, top-quality journalists.
This article starts off as a bore – not yet more CP-bashing !!! – but then gets onto a very serious subject, well analysed.
Interesting stuff. And puff.
“…reforms are needed to effectively shift Malaysia’s trajectory towards a mature democracy – the backbone of all successful and stable high income economies.”
Jim Taylor, there is a lot wrong with Seh Daeng apart from being an eccentric, outspoken bafoon. He makes it very clear that he is in favour of using violence to achieve political (and probably financial) ends. Would you defend him, if he were an Australian army officer preaching violence and rebellion against the Australian state? I think not.
Did any of you read this bit???????? I am sure you guys are smarter than this.
“Aside from us there were about 10 people who got summoned the same day, from their looks I think they’re just normal “р╕Кр╕▓р╕зр╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щ” . Actually one of them was a famous TV host who later ran for an election for Phue Thai, I also spotted a nurse lady being in the same status as we are.”
“The piece quoted popular Burmese author Nu Nu Ye Inwa, who spoke out in support of Yuri. She told the Irrawaddy that it would be good for homosexuals if society accepts them as women, because they have a feminine heart, think like women, and cannot be changed.” This is deeply offensive, the product of very limited education. Gays are males who are attracted to other males. As in all other societies, the qualities which are inherent in their personalities run the whole range of the continuum between ‘macho/masculine’ & ‘feminine’, just as they do with heterosexual males. The transgender thing is an entirely different issue. Unfortunately, the Nu Nu view is one that is common in several SEA countries, including Thailand, & it is the cause of a great deal of unhappiness, as well as huge numbers of dishonest marriages & gender reassignments that should never have happened.
“I don’t deny that the Australian (and any other Western public) are almost utterly ignorant about Asian realities and politics.
Having said that, just how many Thais have you met who have any nuanced understanding of Malay or Indonesian politics?
How many Japanese have you bumped into who know ditto?
What do *you* know about social conditions and the history of party politics in Patagonia?”
Asia – especially East Asia is NOT Patagonia to Australia.
Former Oz PM John Howard’s roll-back of Asian Studies was the worst thing Howard ever did.
And Mandarin-speaking Kevin Rudd has been little improvement.
This is stupid. It’s a disgrace.
Thank you for so much background and analysis, yet…Abhisit’s “strong will” is based on following orders, nothing more, nothing less. Decision making flows thusly: Privy councilor to Gen Anupong to Abhisit. The next Commander-in-Chief will be: Gen Prayuth Chan-ocha as the Reds have acquiesced, so no need “to wipe the Red-Shirts”. The case against Lt Gen Manas Paolik/Thaksin will amount to nothing as to the former point: Khattiya Sawasdipol then becomes the fall guy. The ball is now in the ‘black hooded’ court, what are they going to do?
As a homosexual myself I find the notion that people need to “come out” and in particular that there is such a person as a “Christian homosexual” bizarre. I have always behaved perfectly openly but on the basis of “never apologise, never explain”. My brothers introduced their girlfriends at the time without any need to add “and I’m getting my leg over”; I did the same with any boyfriend and essentially dared people to ask. Of course they never did.
I spent three years at university studying theology with the intention of entering the Anglican priesthood; by the time I graduated I had come to the conclusion that on the balance of probabilities God does not exist and in any event is a hypothesis I can live my life without. While I understand that some homosexual people will come to a different conclusion, in my opinion it is because they have a need to belong and are in denial (ie. failing to acknowledge Buddhism’s Second Noble Truth) that being homsexual is a liberating experience that gives a truly different perspective of the world to those who dare to be other.
I don’t deny that the Australian (and any other Western public) are almost utterly ignorant about Asian realities and politics.
Having said that, just how many Thais have you met who have any nuanced understanding of Malay or Indonesian politics?
How many Japanese have you bumped into who know ditto?
What do *you* know about social conditions and the history of party politics in Patagonia?
Right. Amazingly, people all over the world tend to be insular and self-regarding and generally give very little thought to much beyond what’s for breakfast, sporting results, and who bribed the mayor for this or that property zoning application.
Not news.
What do Thais know about Burma beyond: (1) Those bastards, They killed Kenny! (2) Monks with superior mojo, (3) Domestic helpers?
Which, by way of a rant brings me (finally) to my point:
What Thai, Burmese, Cambodian, Lao, Malaysian, etc. websites exist which are devoted to furthering mutual understanding between these ASEAN nations? ASEAN is a lovely idea (not much market for overtly cynical ideas… so I won’t die rich), but I have noticed in my travels that its existence does not seem to have done anything to enhance mutual understanding between its constituent peoples.
People of “the book” spend too much energy on their prejudices. I wonder if they have properly read and understood the key message delivered by their prophets. A “non book” believer like me can tell it Straight that their language is all about love, not hatred or discrimination. I am a heterosexual who have several homosexual close friends. I can speak from experience that, apart from our slightly different life style, there isn’t much that divided the life of heterosexual from that of homosexual: like-minded individuals attract to one another as we share common values, norms, and priorities in life. Liberty, democracy, equal opportunities, fair and open competition – these issues I care about are equally shared by my gay friends. Distinguishing the “us” and “them” on a basis of people’s sexual orientation is, to me, a human folly. Please note that this is a discrimination of the worst kind.
In regard to Yuri, he needs to be congratulated. The man has taken a step beyond well known gays in Thailand. Thai gay activists don’t campaign to this extent. I don’t remember hearing a gay public figure claiming the “political rights” of his gender (and the rights of minorities in getting social welfare). I hope the homosexual community of Thailand will one day send their own representative to Parliament. Democracy is just an empty word if you people not make it germane and meaningful to your life. So, in short, well done Yuri. Go for it boy.
“””The thing is, the Police Hospital was about 10 steps away from the main Red stage, and no, the Police Hospital doesn’t have any problem with that, so why does the Chula Hospital got so much problem??””””
You assume that the red will treat the police-nurse and police-doctor the same way he treat Chula nurse? Check your assumption first.
“””Yes, so where were you when the PAD did exactly the same thing 2 years ago??? of the PAD leaders dont go to jail for assaulting the Government House and the airport and the UDD leaders have to go to jail, then the double standard practice in Thailand is pretty obvious right???”””
You’re making a wrong assumption here again. There’s a big delays in legal process for both sides, that’s partly driven by the slowness in Thai justice system. The attack of Prem’s Sisao house in 2006? 2007? by the current red leaders haven’t gone anywhere as well. So why the case last year should go ahead faster than that?
And again, double standard? What double standard? The standard for the legal process in Thailand is that the people in power has always treat their allies differently from their non-allies. The Taksi era is no different, and could be even worse. Why Kamnan Poh and Watana Asawahem were charged and their case proceed very fast? Because they do not giv in to Taksin’s requests. Darn people who complained about double standard wight now.
Also, the allegedly double standard happens also because of the police, the upstream of the justice system, would look at who’s in charge and automatically adjust the pace of the case accordingly. If you are Thai and you are not aware about this, you obviously knows too little.
Protesting in the airport site is obviously wrong. However, these people do not attack people in so many instances in the process the reds has been doing since the days the yellow protested. That to many people makes the whole different.
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Reforms in Malaysia – has Najib got it right?
Hi there Kevin,
I state a fact – not a correlation or causation – that there appears a trend that most Muslim majority countries are less democratic. Read this article as an example.
Another source is Freedom House which shows that most Muslim countries (not exclusively) have limited civil and political freedom.
In my mind, of all the Muslim majority countries, only Turkey and Indonesia have semblance of a functioning democracy.
Another important context for Malaysia is that civil and political liberties are curbed under the banner of “social stability” because Malaysia is a multi-ethnic, cultural and religious country. But as I have explained in numerous articles – the issues are always related to the supremacy of Islam and Malay rights. Hence any discussions on the role of the Royalty, affirmative action, quality of the public sector, are automatically seen to be an attack on Malay/Muslim rights.
As for the trend about ANU scholars, I’d encourage you to observe and analyse Southeast Asian countries closely and compare them to say Australia, New Zealand or maybe Japan or South Korea – and then let us know if our concerns about these countries are unfounded.
“Sufficiency democracy” – my contribution to political science vocabulary?
Before I could agree with the term “sufficiency democracy”, which basicly imply negative sense to democracy…. [(ig. political system in Thailand, which some say supports a social hierarchy.)]
Andrew and The Economist and even Schott’s Vocab are likely to agree on the negative meaning of the term,…. its like the limited level or degree of being democracy,… which I am not agree YET.
I would support to imply the “sufficiency democracy” as the “optimal level or degree of democracy” or “minimum require level or degree of democracy”.
In the sense that “Thailand are not being democracy, we needs to improve the level of democracy to be more sufficient”
As you can also have the term say “insufficient democracy”.
Reforms in Malaysia – has Najib got it right?
You mention “a trend that [sic] most Muslim majority countries are inherently undemocratic.” What do you mean by that adverb?
I detect a trend in which the scholars of ANU inherently enjoy seeing their Southeast Asian neighbors as ‘failed states.’
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
Johpa,
Is the ‘aspirin’ effect that the extrajudicial killings delivered worth 2,000 innocent life ?
What that killings achieved was a temporary pause to the drug selling without tackling any real issue since it only temporarily breakdown the retail chain but without touching any key suppliers?
You may say the subsequent governments were not doing their job in pursuing the goal of curbing drug sales, but then how would you suggest those subsequent governments do that if by the goodness of Taksin’s scheme and the great success, it costed more than 1,500 innocent life? May be you suggest setting a target number for the polices to kill the way it was done during Taksin time? Then to make that sustainable it must be a yearly target.
I feel sick writing this down but for those people supporting that scheme they probably unaware that it literally mean they support a continually killing of innocent people in order to achieve a grander goal for the country?
“The deep political crisis within the Royal Thai Army officer corps”
[…] The deep political crisis within the Royal Thai Army officer corps | New Mandala (tags: thailand elections army politics) […]
“Sufficiency democracy” – my contribution to political science vocabulary?
Sufficiency democracy requires sufficiency media and sufficiency information. Freedom against Censorship Thailand (www.facthai.wordpress.com) has now been banned.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
This very very unBuddhist Thaksin “thought virus” in which Thaksin convinced rural Thais that mass extrajudicial killing is somehow justified by unproven ends of crime reduction, this is the virus you should attend to.
Mr. Fernquest, nothing endeared Thakisn to the rural folks more than his extrajudicial war on drug dealers. As one who was living in rural Northern Thailand at the time, I can attest that the program was amazingly successful in curbing to a significant degree the yaa baa epidemic, especially within the local schools, that was bringing normal life to a halt.
If there was a virus it was the drug epidemic that nobody else was willing to tackle as too many powerful interest groups were profiting, ranging from the police to the bankers. Those suffering from the “virus” were the baan nok people that A. Thongchai refers to in his article. The city schools did not see the same levels of drug dealing as the more rural schools. People in their gated newer housing developments masquerading as muu baans were not experiencing the relentless epidemics of burglaries and violence (domestic and otherwise) that had become daily features of rural life up north, causing a nostalgia for the more halcyon days of opium addiction.
I am no fan of extra judicial legal proceedings, and I do not personally condone Thaskin’s method. And although some local police used the program to settle personal scores and despite the fact that it failed to target major players (my wife lost one cousin who was a small time drug dealer) the program did greatly reduce the quantity of drugs sold in the schools. And I can think of nothing else that won over more hearts and minds in the rural north than making that huge impact upon the drug dealing network that at least moved much of the yaa baa drug dealing out of the schools.
Sufficiency democracy
[…] р╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕нр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕нр╕┤р╕Зр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Ър╕Чр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Вр╕нр╕З “р╣Бр╕нр╕Щр╕Фр╕гр╕╣р╕зр╣М р╕зр╕нр╕ер╣Мр╕Др╣Ар╕Бр╕нр╕гр╣М” р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ьр╕вр╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╣Ар╕зр╣Зр╕Ър╕ер╣Зр╕нр╕Б “р╕Щр╕┤р╕з […]
Vajiralongkorn’s pipe
Hamish McDonald is undoubtedly one of Australia’s finest, top-quality journalists.
This article starts off as a bore – not yet more CP-bashing !!! – but then gets onto a very serious subject, well analysed.
Interesting stuff. And puff.
Reforms in Malaysia – has Najib got it right?
“…reforms are needed to effectively shift Malaysia’s trajectory towards a mature democracy – the backbone of all successful and stable high income economies.”
ummm… Singapore?
Abhisit’s offer
Jim Taylor, there is a lot wrong with Seh Daeng apart from being an eccentric, outspoken bafoon. He makes it very clear that he is in favour of using violence to achieve political (and probably financial) ends. Would you defend him, if he were an Australian army officer preaching violence and rebellion against the Australian state? I think not.
Thai military intelligence in action
Did any of you read this bit???????? I am sure you guys are smarter than this.
“Aside from us there were about 10 people who got summoned the same day, from their looks I think they’re just normal “р╕Кр╕▓р╕зр╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щ” . Actually one of them was a famous TV host who later ran for an election for Phue Thai, I also spotted a nurse lady being in the same status as we are.”
I don’t remember having any elections recently.
Confronting Karen homophobia in Burma
“The piece quoted popular Burmese author Nu Nu Ye Inwa, who spoke out in support of Yuri. She told the Irrawaddy that it would be good for homosexuals if society accepts them as women, because they have a feminine heart, think like women, and cannot be changed.” This is deeply offensive, the product of very limited education. Gays are males who are attracted to other males. As in all other societies, the qualities which are inherent in their personalities run the whole range of the continuum between ‘macho/masculine’ & ‘feminine’, just as they do with heterosexual males. The transgender thing is an entirely different issue. Unfortunately, the Nu Nu view is one that is common in several SEA countries, including Thailand, & it is the cause of a great deal of unhappiness, as well as huge numbers of dishonest marriages & gender reassignments that should never have happened.
“Sufficiency democracy” – my contribution to political science vocabulary?
Juan Carlos # 12 :
@ Chis Beale
“I don’t deny that the Australian (and any other Western public) are almost utterly ignorant about Asian realities and politics.
Having said that, just how many Thais have you met who have any nuanced understanding of Malay or Indonesian politics?
How many Japanese have you bumped into who know ditto?
What do *you* know about social conditions and the history of party politics in Patagonia?”
Asia – especially East Asia is NOT Patagonia to Australia.
Former Oz PM John Howard’s roll-back of Asian Studies was the worst thing Howard ever did.
And Mandarin-speaking Kevin Rudd has been little improvement.
This is stupid. It’s a disgrace.
“The deep political crisis within the Royal Thai Army officer corps”
Thank you for so much background and analysis, yet…Abhisit’s “strong will” is based on following orders, nothing more, nothing less. Decision making flows thusly: Privy councilor to Gen Anupong to Abhisit. The next Commander-in-Chief will be: Gen Prayuth Chan-ocha as the Reds have acquiesced, so no need “to wipe the Red-Shirts”. The case against Lt Gen Manas Paolik/Thaksin will amount to nothing as to the former point: Khattiya Sawasdipol then becomes the fall guy. The ball is now in the ‘black hooded’ court, what are they going to do?
Confronting Karen homophobia in Burma
As a homosexual myself I find the notion that people need to “come out” and in particular that there is such a person as a “Christian homosexual” bizarre. I have always behaved perfectly openly but on the basis of “never apologise, never explain”. My brothers introduced their girlfriends at the time without any need to add “and I’m getting my leg over”; I did the same with any boyfriend and essentially dared people to ask. Of course they never did.
I spent three years at university studying theology with the intention of entering the Anglican priesthood; by the time I graduated I had come to the conclusion that on the balance of probabilities God does not exist and in any event is a hypothesis I can live my life without. While I understand that some homosexual people will come to a different conclusion, in my opinion it is because they have a need to belong and are in denial (ie. failing to acknowledge Buddhism’s Second Noble Truth) that being homsexual is a liberating experience that gives a truly different perspective of the world to those who dare to be other.
“Sufficiency democracy” – my contribution to political science vocabulary?
@ Chis Beale
I don’t deny that the Australian (and any other Western public) are almost utterly ignorant about Asian realities and politics.
Having said that, just how many Thais have you met who have any nuanced understanding of Malay or Indonesian politics?
How many Japanese have you bumped into who know ditto?
What do *you* know about social conditions and the history of party politics in Patagonia?
Right. Amazingly, people all over the world tend to be insular and self-regarding and generally give very little thought to much beyond what’s for breakfast, sporting results, and who bribed the mayor for this or that property zoning application.
Not news.
What do Thais know about Burma beyond: (1) Those bastards, They killed Kenny! (2) Monks with superior mojo, (3) Domestic helpers?
Which, by way of a rant brings me (finally) to my point:
What Thai, Burmese, Cambodian, Lao, Malaysian, etc. websites exist which are devoted to furthering mutual understanding between these ASEAN nations? ASEAN is a lovely idea (not much market for overtly cynical ideas… so I won’t die rich), but I have noticed in my travels that its existence does not seem to have done anything to enhance mutual understanding between its constituent peoples.
Confronting Karen homophobia in Burma
People of “the book” spend too much energy on their prejudices. I wonder if they have properly read and understood the key message delivered by their prophets. A “non book” believer like me can tell it Straight that their language is all about love, not hatred or discrimination. I am a heterosexual who have several homosexual close friends. I can speak from experience that, apart from our slightly different life style, there isn’t much that divided the life of heterosexual from that of homosexual: like-minded individuals attract to one another as we share common values, norms, and priorities in life. Liberty, democracy, equal opportunities, fair and open competition – these issues I care about are equally shared by my gay friends. Distinguishing the “us” and “them” on a basis of people’s sexual orientation is, to me, a human folly. Please note that this is a discrimination of the worst kind.
In regard to Yuri, he needs to be congratulated. The man has taken a step beyond well known gays in Thailand. Thai gay activists don’t campaign to this extent. I don’t remember hearing a gay public figure claiming the “political rights” of his gender (and the rights of minorities in getting social welfare). I hope the homosexual community of Thailand will one day send their own representative to Parliament. Democracy is just an empty word if you people not make it germane and meaningful to your life. So, in short, well done Yuri. Go for it boy.
Thai military intelligence in action
I am waiting for Class Thirteen, CMA.
They may be the heroes of a modern, Ipod Thai democracy.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
“””The thing is, the Police Hospital was about 10 steps away from the main Red stage, and no, the Police Hospital doesn’t have any problem with that, so why does the Chula Hospital got so much problem??””””
You assume that the red will treat the police-nurse and police-doctor the same way he treat Chula nurse? Check your assumption first.
“””Yes, so where were you when the PAD did exactly the same thing 2 years ago??? of the PAD leaders dont go to jail for assaulting the Government House and the airport and the UDD leaders have to go to jail, then the double standard practice in Thailand is pretty obvious right???”””
You’re making a wrong assumption here again. There’s a big delays in legal process for both sides, that’s partly driven by the slowness in Thai justice system. The attack of Prem’s Sisao house in 2006? 2007? by the current red leaders haven’t gone anywhere as well. So why the case last year should go ahead faster than that?
And again, double standard? What double standard? The standard for the legal process in Thailand is that the people in power has always treat their allies differently from their non-allies. The Taksi era is no different, and could be even worse. Why Kamnan Poh and Watana Asawahem were charged and their case proceed very fast? Because they do not giv in to Taksin’s requests. Darn people who complained about double standard wight now.
Also, the allegedly double standard happens also because of the police, the upstream of the justice system, would look at who’s in charge and automatically adjust the pace of the case accordingly. If you are Thai and you are not aware about this, you obviously knows too little.
Protesting in the airport site is obviously wrong. However, these people do not attack people in so many instances in the process the reds has been doing since the days the yellow protested. That to many people makes the whole different.