I don’t think The Nation is lying, nor do I believe the UDD is now seeking an amnesty.
When I first read the article, it just struck me as yet another example of bad reporting by staff. It looked to me (and still does) like a completely unwarranted deduction from Natthawut’s quoted suggestion that Abhisit should carefully reconsider the matter of charging UDD leaders with terrorism, a suggestion which appears to be more of a taunt than a request (ie” Go ahead and charge us if you dare, but think about what might be brought to light in Court”).
Notice that the reporter produces no direct quote of Natthawut saying they are seeking an amnesty.
ClauseW: Thanks for the information, but I’m still not going to try it on ANZAC day (or maybe I could on the net, if I could be bothered, but certainly not in person:)
clausew you say :- “Essentially the extreme prejudice of the mass media – siding with the democrat- PAD alliance on most events over the last 4 years – is why I have shifted towards being very sympathetic to the REDS and Thaksin”
I don’t think you are alone on this by a long shot.
I expected that the Democrats would want amnesty for banned politicians because, amazingly, they might be really facing dissolution themselves
I havent seen anywhere else about the reds going against there statement that they do not want amnesty from their criminal charges, presumably because they want the facts dragged out in court
so, since its only the only the (often lying) Nation I await confirmation from some more reliable source
I am a New Zealander and as a young man was anti ANZAC (not now) just for the hell of it. I can assure khun Nganadeeleg that no one could care less. It was just my opinion – and taken by my professors, relatives and friends as being that. I don’t remember any scorn towards me, but rather mild amusement at some of my over the top rants.
Great article. One of the things that surprised me when going to Ratchaprasong to a clinic there, was that the traffic was actually better than usual for that time of day- with redshirts actively – and pleasantly- directing traffic.
For the respondent who reasons that fear and terror ruled when the redshirts ‘invaded ‘ the hospital and that it is proved by the fact that the supreme patriach was removed , has it occured that possibly this was an over reaction and that he could have remained.
In the Bangkok post we see articles comparing this occupation of the hospital with the PAD invasion of the airport – and suggesting that it was worse what happened at the hopsital. No mention of course of the infamous siding of Chula doctors with PAD and announcing they would not treat any police invloved in trying to remove PAD from govt. house.
Essentially the extreme prejudice of the mass media – siding with the democrat- PAD alliance on most events over the last 4 years – is why I have shifted towards being very sympathetic to the REDS and Thaksin. That, and because I sense large numbers of people in Thailand genuinely do want a democracy, 20 years ago this was not so clear.
Tarrin: No, I doubt you would go to jail, but if you expressed anti-ANZAC day sentiments, especially on the actual day, then you are likely to face considerable scorn.
That’s how I percieve things to be in Thailand regarding the monarchy
– of course the legal ramifications are an additional (the main) deterrent to expressing ‘anti’ sentiments – that’s why I said ‘apart from the legal impediment‘ in my original post #63.
Until all things can be discussed freely, I don’t see much hope of things getting much better – it’s just too easy to stifle any opposing views by tainting them with the anti-monarchy brush.
Secret negotiations stall over amnesty for banned politicians; DAAD wants details of plan before ending protest.
The red shirts yesterday said they would continue their protest in the Rajprasong business area until they obtained all the details of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva’s road map for national reconciliation.
They want this to include an amnesty from all charges and a clear stance on the road map from the ruling Democrat Party and its coalition partners.
“The government still poses a threat to us while the prime minister talks about reconciliation,” said red leader Natthawut Saikua.
Reconciliation cannot happen in this tense atmosphere, he said.
“Even militants in the restive South have never been charged with terrorism. May I ask why the government charged nine red leaders as terrorists?” he asked. “Prime Minister Abhisit should take time to reconsider this matter.”
It’s from the Nation so I guess you can accuse it of being lies, but to me it has the ring of truth to it. These guys aren’t exactly heroic.
Tarrin 45# “Btw, the reason why many Thais vote for this constitution was because about a week for the date for referendum, the PM Sorayuth came out and said if people don’t accept this constitution then the panel might come out with a worst one…”
I wasn’t here at the time, but from what I have read , the 2007 referendum process for the present Constitution was a disgrace to any notion of democracy. In addition to the intimidation tactic you mention, the junta passed a law which was used to threaten with criminal prosecution anyone publicly criticizing the draft Constitution, even those informing the public that it was legal to vote against it.
The junta also engaged in a massive advertising and propaganda campaign to support the draft, and part of this suggested that, if people didn’t vote for the new Constitution, this could imply that they were not in support of the monarchy (“Love the King. Care about the King. Vote in a referendum. Accept the 2007 draft charter”).
As if this wasn’t enough, the 700,000 staff of the Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC) were ordered to go forth and ‘educate’ rural people into accepting the draft.
Just after the referendum in August 2007 the Asian Human Rights Commission had this to say about the process:
“The entire event was conducted under a heavy anti-democratic atmosphere: precisely the sort of referendum that dictators have used throughout history to give the false impression of public endorsement for their actions. History also has many lessons about the types of repressive regimes and social turmoil that emerge from such deceitful public rituals.” (http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2007statements/1156/)
I feel it’s very important to understand that what Dr. Aphisit and Ben Bowler are doing with MFAM has far less to do with “commerce,” and far more to do with Buddhist principles of compassion and lovingkindness. Every day, Ben and his friends at the Sangha in Fang are building a school for orphaned and displaced children, and contributing to the well being of families displaced by the strife in Burma.
MFAM is a compassionate vehicle that helps fund these important charitable goals. MFAM also allows individuals to experience in a very authentic sense the Thai tradition of temporary ordination.
I think you hit the nail on the head Thongchai by commenting on the language and metaphors of germs and pathology, especially how the bannok are viewed as lesser-kinds of human savage because they resist what is for all intensive purposes a royalist right-wing theocracy’: the state is sacred and the sovereign is elevated into a ‘god’ as Carl Schmitt suggests.
I wonder did the red shirts broadcast the prime minister’s coronation day reception on the big screens last night?
Could have / should have been done without comment. And would have made for some good photo opportunities – assembled prai outdoors watching their medal-bedecked betters schmooze in opulent surroundings.
where do you get the info that the reds are trying to negotiating not going to gaol? they explcitly say that they want to fight the charges against them in court… presumably because they believe they can defeat the foolishly conceived charges
seems to me Abhisit is quite concerned that his party could be dissolved and is shocked that the reds have not demanded amnesty for banned politicians
The denizens of the Ivory Coast have formulated a masterful statement of the Constitutional Reform Dilemma, viz. anything which seems like a good idea today is going to end up being a mighty pain in the nether regions tomorrow.
Despite being myself a poor advertisement for firearm safety and a member of the in-bred House of Bourbon and also allowing for my extra-deeply in-bred tendency to remember everything and learn nothing… but not having been *entirely bad* for my subjects, I might add this:
There is no form of constitution or mode of government which cannot be corrupted by humanity. Preceding statement to be raised to the power of 10 where the smiling natives of Siam are concerned.
A source at the CRES said the prime minister had asked army chief Anupong Paojinda to ensure the red shirt protesters were returned home.
Details of protesters and their photos would be recorded before they would be allowed to leave for home, the source said. Troops with the Internal Security Operations Command in all provinces would later be sent to talk to them.
The only people that stand between The Burmese Solution for Thailand and the present are the reds.
“First they came for the reds, but I wasn’t a red, so I didn’t speak up…”
Seems I was thinking along the correct line in my earlier post. The hold up seems to be about the red shirt leaders legal position after the rally ends. They really don’t want to go prison. Be interesting to see how many lives they are willing to sacrifice to stop that happening.
“BTW this is not an article about the anti-monarchy in Thailand and it is not the subject of my interest. I hope people who are interested in this subject, or very much engaged with it, write it. Should I wonder why many people who are so deeply interested in writing about the monarchy in recent years don’t make the anti-monarchy visible? Perhaps you, Aladdin, can enlighten me why don’t they do it.”
I’m just waking up this morning and am having trouble understanding – is that question or not? (there’s no question mark)
If it is a question, is it a serious question?
The reason I ask is because the answer seems very obvious – apart from the legal impediment, the numerous twitter messages ending with “#weloveking’ yesterday make it even more clear IMO.
(To put it in an Aussie context, being anti-monarchy on any day in Thailand is like being anti-ANZAC day on ANZAC day in Australia)
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Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
“Lesser kind of human savages…” an ironic and perhaps unintentional description of part of the overall problems facing us as a species.
Abhisit’s offer
David brown #55.
I don’t think The Nation is lying, nor do I believe the UDD is now seeking an amnesty.
When I first read the article, it just struck me as yet another example of bad reporting by staff. It looked to me (and still does) like a completely unwarranted deduction from Natthawut’s quoted suggestion that Abhisit should carefully reconsider the matter of charging UDD leaders with terrorism, a suggestion which appears to be more of a taunt than a request (ie” Go ahead and charge us if you dare, but think about what might be brought to light in Court”).
Notice that the reporter produces no direct quote of Natthawut saying they are seeking an amnesty.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
ClauseW: Thanks for the information, but I’m still not going to try it on ANZAC day (or maybe I could on the net, if I could be bothered, but certainly not in person:)
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
clausew you say :- “Essentially the extreme prejudice of the mass media – siding with the democrat- PAD alliance on most events over the last 4 years – is why I have shifted towards being very sympathetic to the REDS and Thaksin”
I don’t think you are alone on this by a long shot.
Abhisit’s offer
Les Abbey #54
thanks I missed that item in the Nation
I expected that the Democrats would want amnesty for banned politicians because, amazingly, they might be really facing dissolution themselves
I havent seen anywhere else about the reds going against there statement that they do not want amnesty from their criminal charges, presumably because they want the facts dragged out in court
so, since its only the only the (often lying) Nation I await confirmation from some more reliable source
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
I am a New Zealander and as a young man was anti ANZAC (not now) just for the hell of it. I can assure khun Nganadeeleg that no one could care less. It was just my opinion – and taken by my professors, relatives and friends as being that. I don’t remember any scorn towards me, but rather mild amusement at some of my over the top rants.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
Great article. One of the things that surprised me when going to Ratchaprasong to a clinic there, was that the traffic was actually better than usual for that time of day- with redshirts actively – and pleasantly- directing traffic.
For the respondent who reasons that fear and terror ruled when the redshirts ‘invaded ‘ the hospital and that it is proved by the fact that the supreme patriach was removed , has it occured that possibly this was an over reaction and that he could have remained.
In the Bangkok post we see articles comparing this occupation of the hospital with the PAD invasion of the airport – and suggesting that it was worse what happened at the hopsital. No mention of course of the infamous siding of Chula doctors with PAD and announcing they would not treat any police invloved in trying to remove PAD from govt. house.
Essentially the extreme prejudice of the mass media – siding with the democrat- PAD alliance on most events over the last 4 years – is why I have shifted towards being very sympathetic to the REDS and Thaksin. That, and because I sense large numbers of people in Thailand genuinely do want a democracy, 20 years ago this was not so clear.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
Tarrin: No, I doubt you would go to jail, but if you expressed anti-ANZAC day sentiments, especially on the actual day, then you are likely to face considerable scorn.
That’s how I percieve things to be in Thailand regarding the monarchy
– of course the legal ramifications are an additional (the main) deterrent to expressing ‘anti’ sentiments – that’s why I said ‘apart from the legal impediment‘ in my original post #63.
Until all things can be discussed freely, I don’t see much hope of things getting much better – it’s just too easy to stifle any opposing views by tainting them with the anti-monarchy brush.
Abhisit’s offer
David Brown 51
Quoting:
Secret negotiations stall over amnesty for banned politicians; DAAD wants details of plan before ending protest.
The red shirts yesterday said they would continue their protest in the Rajprasong business area until they obtained all the details of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva’s road map for national reconciliation.
They want this to include an amnesty from all charges and a clear stance on the road map from the ruling Democrat Party and its coalition partners.
“The government still poses a threat to us while the prime minister talks about reconciliation,” said red leader Natthawut Saikua.
Reconciliation cannot happen in this tense atmosphere, he said.
“Even militants in the restive South have never been charged with terrorism. May I ask why the government charged nine red leaders as terrorists?” he asked. “Prime Minister Abhisit should take time to reconsider this matter.”
It’s from the Nation so I guess you can accuse it of being lies, but to me it has the ring of truth to it. These guys aren’t exactly heroic.
Abhisit’s offer
Tarrin 45# “Btw, the reason why many Thais vote for this constitution was because about a week for the date for referendum, the PM Sorayuth came out and said if people don’t accept this constitution then the panel might come out with a worst one…”
I wasn’t here at the time, but from what I have read , the 2007 referendum process for the present Constitution was a disgrace to any notion of democracy. In addition to the intimidation tactic you mention, the junta passed a law which was used to threaten with criminal prosecution anyone publicly criticizing the draft Constitution, even those informing the public that it was legal to vote against it.
The junta also engaged in a massive advertising and propaganda campaign to support the draft, and part of this suggested that, if people didn’t vote for the new Constitution, this could imply that they were not in support of the monarchy (“Love the King. Care about the King. Vote in a referendum. Accept the 2007 draft charter”).
As if this wasn’t enough, the 700,000 staff of the Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC) were ordered to go forth and ‘educate’ rural people into accepting the draft.
Just after the referendum in August 2007 the Asian Human Rights Commission had this to say about the process:
“The entire event was conducted under a heavy anti-democratic atmosphere: precisely the sort of referendum that dictators have used throughout history to give the false impression of public endorsement for their actions. History also has many lessons about the types of repressive regimes and social turmoil that emerge from such deceitful public rituals.” (http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2007statements/1156/)
This article in the Asian Sentinel was published about a month before the referendum and is informative in its criticisms , ending on a prophetic note which recent history seems to be validating:
http://asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=574&Itemid=3132
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
Nganadeeleg – 63, so do you go to jail if you are am anti-ANZAC?
Mixing religion and commerce: The Monk for a Month Program in Fang, Chiang Mai
I feel it’s very important to understand that what Dr. Aphisit and Ben Bowler are doing with MFAM has far less to do with “commerce,” and far more to do with Buddhist principles of compassion and lovingkindness. Every day, Ben and his friends at the Sangha in Fang are building a school for orphaned and displaced children, and contributing to the well being of families displaced by the strife in Burma.
MFAM is a compassionate vehicle that helps fund these important charitable goals. MFAM also allows individuals to experience in a very authentic sense the Thai tradition of temporary ordination.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
I think you hit the nail on the head Thongchai by commenting on the language and metaphors of germs and pathology, especially how the bannok are viewed as lesser-kinds of human savage because they resist what is for all intensive purposes a royalist right-wing theocracy’: the state is sacred and the sovereign is elevated into a ‘god’ as Carl Schmitt suggests.
Abhisit’s offer
I wonder did the red shirts broadcast the prime minister’s coronation day reception on the big screens last night?
Could have / should have been done without comment. And would have made for some good photo opportunities – assembled prai outdoors watching their medal-bedecked betters schmooze in opulent surroundings.
Abhisit’s offer
Les Abbey
where do you get the info that the reds are trying to negotiating not going to gaol? they explcitly say that they want to fight the charges against them in court… presumably because they believe they can defeat the foolishly conceived charges
seems to me Abhisit is quite concerned that his party could be dissolved and is shocked that the reds have not demanded amnesty for banned politicians
Abhisit’s offer
@ John Brown #48:
The denizens of the Ivory Coast have formulated a masterful statement of the Constitutional Reform Dilemma, viz. anything which seems like a good idea today is going to end up being a mighty pain in the nether regions tomorrow.
Despite being myself a poor advertisement for firearm safety and a member of the in-bred House of Bourbon and also allowing for my extra-deeply in-bred tendency to remember everything and learn nothing… but not having been *entirely bad* for my subjects, I might add this:
There is no form of constitution or mode of government which cannot be corrupted by humanity. Preceding statement to be raised to the power of 10 where the smiling natives of Siam are concerned.
Thai military intelligence in action
Sirichoke warns reds of ‘action’ if rally goes on
The only people that stand between The Burmese Solution for Thailand and the present are the reds.
“First they came for the reds, but I wasn’t a red, so I didn’t speak up…”
Abhisit’s offer
Seems I was thinking along the correct line in my earlier post. The hold up seems to be about the red shirt leaders legal position after the rally ends. They really don’t want to go prison. Be interesting to see how many lives they are willing to sacrifice to stop that happening.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
[…] Winichakul, at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, has a guest post at New Mandala. His […]
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
“BTW this is not an article about the anti-monarchy in Thailand and it is not the subject of my interest. I hope people who are interested in this subject, or very much engaged with it, write it. Should I wonder why many people who are so deeply interested in writing about the monarchy in recent years don’t make the anti-monarchy visible? Perhaps you, Aladdin, can enlighten me why don’t they do it.”
I’m just waking up this morning and am having trouble understanding – is that question or not? (there’s no question mark)
If it is a question, is it a serious question?
The reason I ask is because the answer seems very obvious – apart from the legal impediment, the numerous twitter messages ending with “#weloveking’ yesterday make it even more clear IMO.
(To put it in an Aussie context, being anti-monarchy on any day in Thailand is like being anti-ANZAC day on ANZAC day in Australia)