This is rich: the Thai government’s response to the Economist’s Banyan column last week says:
“To portray what is now taking place in Thailand as an ‘elite versus poor’ struggle is misleading; to imply any elite conspiracy to suppress the poor is even worse.”
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with expressly accusing people of a conspiracy against the elite.
(Letter is from Vimon Kidchob, Director-general, Department of Information, Ministry of Foreign Affairs.)
In fact the graphs go up to 2007 (not so clear – sorry). Not all indicators are available for 2008 and 2009, though the Thai agricultural GDP does show continued healthy growth in 2008.
Re: Athita – “I can’t find the photo of “sniper” shooter hiding at the back of GMC truck. I wonder, is this right thing for the government to do this to its people. They even used the stopped cars to hide and yelled at the drivers.”
==================================
I have seen the photo of the two person Army sniper team (spotter and shooter at ready position) sitting in the back of a partially covered pick-up truck but it is difficult to know when the photo was taken and where (although the photographer is saying it was taken near the clash in Bangkok’s northern suburbs on Wednesday afternoon).
I think it is pretty much confirmed that the Army deployed sniper teams on Saturday April 10th and that some of the dead and wounded were clearly killed by single high-powered rounds from the snipers, including journalists and other “non-combatants” so it would not be improbable to assume that the Army is deploying sniper teams on a regular basis.
Yes. I think it would be instructive to see the data for 2005 to 2010 because I suspect that would suggest an underlying cause of the current widespread discontent.
In my travels in the Issan, I regularly hear complaints that the price of rice to the farmer has gone through the floor (recently went down again I understand), and the re-sale value of a cow has similarly declined disastrously for the farmer.
The perception is that the ultimate market price has not changed very much, and that the friends of the coup and the current democrat government are filling their pockets very nicely thank you at the direct expense of the farmers. They feel that Thaksin looked after them rather better.
It is a commonly held perception that the coup was a direct ans simple response to the fear among the aristocracy that Thaksin would end up being more popular than the King. That appears to be what this is really all about.
[…] graphs, partly to display my statistical sophistication! These two are my modest contribution to recent discussion on New Mandala about the underlying economic drivers of political conflict. They both relate to the […]
Very sorry. Correction. Phunsuk Na Pomphet (Pridi’s wife) and Pojamarn’s mother (Pojani Na Pomphet) were not real sisters, they’re just related through different branches of Na Pomphet family. In fact Pridi’s family always maintains that Pojamarn’s mother was not originally a Na Pomphet: she just asked one of the Na Pomphet to adopt the family name (I couldn’t not at the moment verify this). On the other hand, Thaksin’s supporters in recent years, love to stress the connection (Pojani Na Pomphet – Phunsuk Na Pomphet).
But Aphisit’s wife’s grandmother, Ampha Na Pomphet, really was Phunsuk’s sister.
Sattahibo – I guess Jay already said what I want to say. In addition I know about the parliamentary system full well, now the question is, those yellow always claimed that vote buying is a major obstruction to democracy, but they never once mention about vote buying “IN” the parliament, (ala Newin). Remember, its much easier to buy vote from 20-30 MP than buying from 12 million poor voters.
I can have some sympathy for the AI position if they are pushing the legalistic point of view, because Lege Majesty laws are not that clearly a violation of ICCPR standards (and it is a grey area). However, you would hope that they get their ICCPR standards correct. AI states that freedom of expression may be limited “only pursuant to a publicly-proclaimed state of emergency which threatens the life of the nation.”
Well no, LM laws are allowed if it is in law (yes it is), is necessary (no it isn’t) and for the protection of national security (and this is nothing to do with a state of emergency).
If AI are going for the legalistic response they should be pushing the Thai government to show why LM is ‘necessary’ for the protection of national security, of course alongside the other issues of criminalization, privacy, questionable national security interests, and so on.
“Most likely, the unit commanders behind the shield wall (toward which the motorcycle troops were headed) know full well it was a friendly fire screw-up –” (Steve, 5). Sounds as if soldiers assigned to protect the unit commanders thought they were about to be attacked in the same way as the commanders of the April 10 operation, and deliberately fired on the motorcycle troops. The army more scared of each other than of anyone else?
‘…and the capture of a police officer with a veritable arsenal after withdrawing huge amounts of baht in Zeer Rangsit.
‘ These are not simply weapons of self-defence against a crackdown such as bamboo spikes and stones.
‘ These are weapons of attack. ‘
Why on earth do you connect this cop/arms merchant with the red shirts? He denied it. Chulalongkorn Dr Tul Sitthisomwong and his crowd, or Chamlong and the PAD are at least as likely to be the buyers. ASTV said the grenade that killed and maimed came from the 5th floor of Chulalongkorn Hospital.
No matter what color they are… their idea of thinking at the end are the same which is to have a better future for Thailand. Even the red shirts out there, I’m sure none of them want to destroy their own country or , red yellow any colors they just have different ideas and opinions in what needs to be done to te country.
So here is the question….
What is needed to be done to fix this ideas and opinions problem?
I’m a Thai person and I do admit that the media here do cover up a lot of story and is being control. There are many opioions talking on the TV show give people different point of view of information creating people to believe differently. Not only that but many international websites are also blocked. It is hard for Thai people to find out what is really going on and what the truth really is.
And I do believe that “Double standard” do really exsit here in the country, With this “Double standard” there will never be a true justice and, a country with out true justice will never find peace.
Correct. Many hundreds of journalists, including myself and a number of colleagues, have been jailed, suffered harm and other forms of proscription so that words would not be sold cheaply. That is the standard that has been met by many; unfortunately not by most.
Not that unsubstantiated speculation isn’t useful, or has no validity, or is not worthy of applause. It often plays a critical role in inviting further investigation, perhaps even leading to something credible. Many thousands, if not millions, of brave people have provided insightful accounts, such as this one. This one appears to be particularly well briefed, and well worth investigation. But the robustness of the reporting cannot be tested. Until it can, it must remain – unsubstantiated.
It is not just a clash between the current government and the Red shirts, but it is also a clash among military personnels; retired, and groups which do not have a strong connection to get promoted to higher ranks.
The army always has a strong influential role in this country for many decades, the winning side will be hero anyway. But clearly, Red masterminds encourage innocent people to come out and protest to be their useless shield. The more death, the more benefits for them. and I agree with Richard P Thaksin’s bravery in introducing some controls on the military, would you care to let me know what was exactly was brave in his fast-tracking of his cousin Chaisit Shinawatra up the military chain of command, despite the presence of much more qualified officers” The nation is not a family business after all.
Thailand still is a developing country and without a solid manufacturing export base the service sector alone could not carry the growing population.
Thailand also does not have a huge capital base and rich natural resources like Australia and many other developed countries to be able to afford to import all the manufacturing products she needs.
Thais are also good at producing things and sending them all over the world. Half of the shelves of most Asian groceries in USA, UK, and Australia are occupied by the packaged foodstuff made in Thailand. (Without Jasmin Rice and Nam-pla and Chilli-paste from Thailand many Asians living in the west will starve.)
Thailand without a manufacturing export industry is just a pipe dream for the social unrest will be regularly unleashed as unemployment hits sky high.
Thailand still needs to produce BMWs and Hondas for export as to create jobs for her people especially the surplus labor from the villages and small towns all over the country!
To Athita – Matichon had it on their website but I think they removed it for the government security reasons or self-censorship (I have it in my computer).
To chris beale – The only thing pistol can do is self-protecting, The army have M16 , Sniper, some kind of machine gun and they brought SWAT team officers(Not for just block the protesters for sure) and I don’t think M79 story are clear enough to make a judgement, it could be third-hand or the government try to make more accuses on the Red shirts.
NO-ONE should be going to prison – period – for lese majeste.
Here, AI clearly infer they believe that is acceptable if charges are laid by the state and not by individuals.
The LM law in its present form is just plain wrong. It shouldn’t be reformed but abolished. It is also in clear breach of Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This shouldn’t be compromised.
When are Amnesty going to step up to the plate and defend Article 19 in Thailand?
They seem perfectly capable of defending bloggers in S. Korea, dissidents in Zimbabwe, political prisoners in Burma why not in Thailand? Are Thai human rights worth less?
When will they launch an international campaign to free Da Torpedo?
Why are they trusting the Abhisit govt when this same govt is clearly using a fabricated “threat to the monarchy” line to permit a context for possible violent crackdown on protesters? The same govt that is currently engaging in an astonishingly comprehensive censorship of the internet and other media.
I’m afraid this statement adds little to AI’s previous position.
My view is that AI in Thailand could be in breach of AI’s own statutes and they’ve certainly shown a lack of transparency regarding their known previous links to the PAD.
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Suthep threatens arrests
This is rich: the Thai government’s response to the Economist’s Banyan column last week says:
“To portray what is now taking place in Thailand as an ‘elite versus poor’ struggle is misleading; to imply any elite conspiracy to suppress the poor is even worse.”
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with expressly accusing people of a conspiracy against the elite.
(Letter is from Vimon Kidchob, Director-general, Department of Information, Ministry of Foreign Affairs.)
Thailand’s disparity between agriculture and industry
In fact the graphs go up to 2007 (not so clear – sorry). Not all indicators are available for 2008 and 2009, though the Thai agricultural GDP does show continued healthy growth in 2008.
Street fighting in Bangkok
Bannok Kokna: ” The only thing pistol can do is self-protecting” Sorry, what? It’s got a mechanism that stops you from firing first?
Street fighting in Bangkok
Re: Athita – “I can’t find the photo of “sniper” shooter hiding at the back of GMC truck. I wonder, is this right thing for the government to do this to its people. They even used the stopped cars to hide and yelled at the drivers.”
==================================
I have seen the photo of the two person Army sniper team (spotter and shooter at ready position) sitting in the back of a partially covered pick-up truck but it is difficult to know when the photo was taken and where (although the photographer is saying it was taken near the clash in Bangkok’s northern suburbs on Wednesday afternoon).
I think it is pretty much confirmed that the Army deployed sniper teams on Saturday April 10th and that some of the dead and wounded were clearly killed by single high-powered rounds from the snipers, including journalists and other “non-combatants” so it would not be improbable to assume that the Army is deploying sniper teams on a regular basis.
Thailand’s disparity between agriculture and industry
Yes. I think it would be instructive to see the data for 2005 to 2010 because I suspect that would suggest an underlying cause of the current widespread discontent.
In my travels in the Issan, I regularly hear complaints that the price of rice to the farmer has gone through the floor (recently went down again I understand), and the re-sale value of a cow has similarly declined disastrously for the farmer.
The perception is that the ultimate market price has not changed very much, and that the friends of the coup and the current democrat government are filling their pockets very nicely thank you at the direct expense of the farmers. They feel that Thaksin looked after them rather better.
It is a commonly held perception that the coup was a direct ans simple response to the fear among the aristocracy that Thaksin would end up being more popular than the King. That appears to be what this is really all about.
Economic strategy and the roots of Thai political turmoil
[…] graphs, partly to display my statistical sophistication! These two are my modest contribution to recent discussion on New Mandala about the underlying economic drivers of political conflict. They both relate to the […]
Street fighting in Bangkok
I think the solider was shot by the police from a lower position.
Suthep threatens arrests
Very sorry. Correction. Phunsuk Na Pomphet (Pridi’s wife) and Pojamarn’s mother (Pojani Na Pomphet) were not real sisters, they’re just related through different branches of Na Pomphet family. In fact Pridi’s family always maintains that Pojamarn’s mother was not originally a Na Pomphet: she just asked one of the Na Pomphet to adopt the family name (I couldn’t not at the moment verify this). On the other hand, Thaksin’s supporters in recent years, love to stress the connection (Pojani Na Pomphet – Phunsuk Na Pomphet).
But Aphisit’s wife’s grandmother, Ampha Na Pomphet, really was Phunsuk’s sister.
Again, my apology for the confusion.
Clash at National Monument
Sattahibo – I guess Jay already said what I want to say. In addition I know about the parliamentary system full well, now the question is, those yellow always claimed that vote buying is a major obstruction to democracy, but they never once mention about vote buying “IN” the parliament, (ala Newin). Remember, its much easier to buy vote from 20-30 MP than buying from 12 million poor voters.
The betrayal of human rights mandarins
I can have some sympathy for the AI position if they are pushing the legalistic point of view, because Lege Majesty laws are not that clearly a violation of ICCPR standards (and it is a grey area). However, you would hope that they get their ICCPR standards correct. AI states that freedom of expression may be limited “only pursuant to a publicly-proclaimed state of emergency which threatens the life of the nation.”
Well no, LM laws are allowed if it is in law (yes it is), is necessary (no it isn’t) and for the protection of national security (and this is nothing to do with a state of emergency).
If AI are going for the legalistic response they should be pushing the Thai government to show why LM is ‘necessary’ for the protection of national security, of course alongside the other issues of criminalization, privacy, questionable national security interests, and so on.
Street fighting in Bangkok
“Most likely, the unit commanders behind the shield wall (toward which the motorcycle troops were headed) know full well it was a friendly fire screw-up –” (Steve, 5). Sounds as if soldiers assigned to protect the unit commanders thought they were about to be attacked in the same way as the commanders of the April 10 operation, and deliberately fired on the motorcycle troops. The army more scared of each other than of anyone else?
Clash at National Monument
Sattahibo – The Abhisit’s Coalition cabinet is the joining of minority elected Democrat Party with other non-elected parties….
Abhisit as leader of his party was never won in any election……… 🙂
Street fighting in Bangkok
‘…and the capture of a police officer with a veritable arsenal after withdrawing huge amounts of baht in Zeer Rangsit.
‘ These are not simply weapons of self-defence against a crackdown such as bamboo spikes and stones.
‘ These are weapons of attack. ‘
Why on earth do you connect this cop/arms merchant with the red shirts? He denied it. Chulalongkorn Dr Tul Sitthisomwong and his crowd, or Chamlong and the PAD are at least as likely to be the buyers. ASTV said the grenade that killed and maimed came from the 5th floor of Chulalongkorn Hospital.
Video of Thailand on the Verge
No matter what color they are… their idea of thinking at the end are the same which is to have a better future for Thailand. Even the red shirts out there, I’m sure none of them want to destroy their own country or , red yellow any colors they just have different ideas and opinions in what needs to be done to te country.
So here is the question….
What is needed to be done to fix this ideas and opinions problem?
I’m a Thai person and I do admit that the media here do cover up a lot of story and is being control. There are many opioions talking on the TV show give people different point of view of information creating people to believe differently. Not only that but many international websites are also blocked. It is hard for Thai people to find out what is really going on and what the truth really is.
And I do believe that “Double standard” do really exsit here in the country, With this “Double standard” there will never be a true justice and, a country with out true justice will never find peace.
Suthep threatens arrests
Thank you Somsak for your clarification. I never know about Na-Pomphet clan and their involvement in Thai politic before.
“The deep political crisis within the Royal Thai Army officer corps”
R.N. England (32)
Correct. Many hundreds of journalists, including myself and a number of colleagues, have been jailed, suffered harm and other forms of proscription so that words would not be sold cheaply. That is the standard that has been met by many; unfortunately not by most.
Not that unsubstantiated speculation isn’t useful, or has no validity, or is not worthy of applause. It often plays a critical role in inviting further investigation, perhaps even leading to something credible. Many thousands, if not millions, of brave people have provided insightful accounts, such as this one. This one appears to be particularly well briefed, and well worth investigation. But the robustness of the reporting cannot be tested. Until it can, it must remain – unsubstantiated.
“The deep political crisis within the Royal Thai Army officer corps”
It is not just a clash between the current government and the Red shirts, but it is also a clash among military personnels; retired, and groups which do not have a strong connection to get promoted to higher ranks.
The army always has a strong influential role in this country for many decades, the winning side will be hero anyway. But clearly, Red masterminds encourage innocent people to come out and protest to be their useless shield. The more death, the more benefits for them. and I agree with Richard P Thaksin’s bravery in introducing some controls on the military, would you care to let me know what was exactly was brave in his fast-tracking of his cousin Chaisit Shinawatra up the military chain of command, despite the presence of much more qualified officers” The nation is not a family business after all.
Economic strategy and the roots of Thai political turmoil
Thailand still is a developing country and without a solid manufacturing export base the service sector alone could not carry the growing population.
Thailand also does not have a huge capital base and rich natural resources like Australia and many other developed countries to be able to afford to import all the manufacturing products she needs.
Thais are also good at producing things and sending them all over the world. Half of the shelves of most Asian groceries in USA, UK, and Australia are occupied by the packaged foodstuff made in Thailand. (Without Jasmin Rice and Nam-pla and Chilli-paste from Thailand many Asians living in the west will starve.)
Thailand without a manufacturing export industry is just a pipe dream for the social unrest will be regularly unleashed as unemployment hits sky high.
Thailand still needs to produce BMWs and Hondas for export as to create jobs for her people especially the surplus labor from the villages and small towns all over the country!
Street fighting in Bangkok
To Athita – Matichon had it on their website but I think they removed it for the government security reasons or self-censorship (I have it in my computer).
To chris beale – The only thing pistol can do is self-protecting, The army have M16 , Sniper, some kind of machine gun and they brought SWAT team officers(Not for just block the protesters for sure) and I don’t think M79 story are clear enough to make a judgement, it could be third-hand or the government try to make more accuses on the Red shirts.
The betrayal of human rights mandarins
Once again AI & Zawacki dissemble.
NO-ONE should be going to prison – period – for lese majeste.
Here, AI clearly infer they believe that is acceptable if charges are laid by the state and not by individuals.
The LM law in its present form is just plain wrong. It shouldn’t be reformed but abolished. It is also in clear breach of Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This shouldn’t be compromised.
When are Amnesty going to step up to the plate and defend Article 19 in Thailand?
They seem perfectly capable of defending bloggers in S. Korea, dissidents in Zimbabwe, political prisoners in Burma why not in Thailand? Are Thai human rights worth less?
When will they launch an international campaign to free Da Torpedo?
Why are they trusting the Abhisit govt when this same govt is clearly using a fabricated “threat to the monarchy” line to permit a context for possible violent crackdown on protesters? The same govt that is currently engaging in an astonishingly comprehensive censorship of the internet and other media.
I’m afraid this statement adds little to AI’s previous position.
My view is that AI in Thailand could be in breach of AI’s own statutes and they’ve certainly shown a lack of transparency regarding their known previous links to the PAD.