If you went to the Russian houses in 1948 you’d see them worshiping Stalin, if you go to Isanese houses in 2010 you’ll see them worshiping The King.
Thaksin, though, is said to be as popular for some but there’s no evidence of any anti-monarchy sentiment in the countryside, certainly not on the scale Alladin implied.
Uh, Stalin was respected because he was feared, HM is respected not because he’s stupendously rich (which he is) but because he’s bothered to do some things that positively impacted upon the lives of certain communities in Thailand (more than most kings have bothered to do over the past few centuries.) That’s as much as I can say on this issue.
indeed “ajarn”john, that post seems to have gone way over your head…
just as a suggestion: perhaps you could take some of your thai friends on a walk out in the fields, or out on a boat to the middle of a river (i.e. somewhere where they can be sure they are not being overheard)… and then have a chat about the thai monarchy… provided they trust you, i dare say that you may here some surprising things indeed!!! (i am speaking from experience here…)
frustrated thai – Totally agreed with you, I have so much problem talking to my friends, even among some red aligned one who also got degree from oversea.
Regardless, I do expect more from the ABC, and like it or not, the ABC with its due independence, although not a mouthpiece for the government, is the National Broadcaster. It’s not a good look on the world stage.
Perhaps Campbell treats Thais as some sort of primitive people who should be awarded as much privacy as zoo animals.
It’s not only Campbell, though, he produced the show for the general public, for their tastes, and his superiors approved it, and they supposed to know their audience.
I can’t imagine them showing this kind of footage of any “white” royalty, government leadership, or plain celebrities.
RE:” I’m anonymous for obvious reasons” question about Abhisit’s comment.
I too Googled to see if I could find the interview. What I found was one with him talking about the southern problem on Youtube.
Perhaps his office would be happy to help with information or maybe it might be an interesting angle for an Al Jazeera journalist to follow up?
His comment could also be interpreted to say that he looks forward to a politically active monarch in the future and so also as support for the Crown Prince. So maybe he and the exiled PM have more in common than appears on the surface.
Embarrassed Journalist #17 I agree with you.
Campbell’s report would have been a better one, certainly a more diplomatic, balanced and fairer one :
1) if this breach of personal privacy had not been broadcast
2) somebody with contrary views to Paul Handley (eg. Grant Evans) had also been interviewed.
To me, this second point seemed a more serious flaw than the first – though I can understand conservative Thais taking great offense re. the first.
Personally this was my first time seeing that video, of which I’d previously only heard about but could scarcely believe.
As for government funding of the ABC, as you probably know this is done through an independent statutory body.
Unlike in Thailand, the Australian Government can not control programme content.
”For this reason I think that King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai democracy.”
Andrew, a real stab in the dark.
Your assertion undermines itself precisely because our/ your knowledge of the current prince is so vague and based mostly on speculation and rumour. However, if we take the rumours etc. as a basis for future behaviours, do you actually believe that the prince will simply sit idly by, while the Thai people assert their desire for change?
”Thaksin’s comments highlighted anxiety that a symbolically weak king will open up spaces in Thai political life where alternative forms of political authority can be asserted.”
And again.
Opening ”up spaces” may also lead the way for astute opportunism for those less savoury characters in the military, and (apparently) aligned to the prince, to take full advantage of his symbolic weakness and plunge Thailand into a military dictatorship, yet again.
Vinai, I think this article is not saying that Vajiralongkorn will be a good king of Thailand, but rather, his excesses as you have pointed out will force Thais to look at the monarch in a different light. If the king is seen as a demigod and is worshipped, how can Thais discuss about the monarchy in a frank and open manner? But if the king is seen as a person with many failings, Thais will inevitably need to voice out their dissatisfactions openly and this will be the beginning of a healthy democracy for Thailand and could even see the lese majeste law being relaxed or removed. Hence the title of this article.
Apart from the fact that it is sometimes amusing to see large numbers of people doing the same thing (the corps de ballet in Swan Lake; the troops duck-walking in a Nth Korea military parade & saluting the revered leader always make me giggle), I can’t see your point. The “high level of planning and organisation of these rallies” is one of their saving graces. The stage managers are to be commended.
On the 2 occasions I’ve taken a stroll through ‘the mob’, I’ve been impressed by the organisation: cleaner streets than usual, due to all the well-placed giant garbage bags, orderly food-stalls, rows of stalls vending Red paraphernalia (including the flags), neat tubular-framed tents, all marked with names of the area of the occupants (& guarded), and security posts. Last Saturday evening my shoulder-bag was checked 3 times in the space of an hour and a half at Ratchaprasong, & I was impressed, making it all the more horrifying (and mysterious) when the violence occurred.
You’re right: it’s “nothing to do with fed up citizens spontaneously trying to reclaim their streets.” But they ARE fed up up, and have been for a long time. “Reclaim” be buggered. What they’re trying to claim is something they’ve never had. Thank god for the lack of what you call spontaneity. It’d be chaos.
Perhaps some of what you take for boredom is fatigue – & stress. And yes, it is boring doing this sort of thing on a 24/7 basis. But that doesn’t mean they’re insincere.
I work with a number of (educated) thai colleagues who express the very same sentiments as you. There is a very real feeling among them that things are not right in Thailand for a number of very real reaons.
These include the lesse majeste laws, widespread corruption, the ineptitude of the police and army, a weak legal system,an extremely poor education system etc. etc.
Commentators and posters on this blog have often pointed to these reasons, but beyond that, there is little or nothing that we can do to change the current status quo. Many of us here are foreigners in your country, so, simply put, it’s not our business.
We, like you, are impotent observers, although we seem to be able to say what we think.
I wish Thai people would protest on the streets about the real issues, that are the root causes of this country’s problems, but they don’t.
Fear is a powerful motivator not to do something we know to be right.
Don’t feel disheartened – things must and will change.
I am Thai and very frustrated. There are so much I need to express but it’s pretty late at night and I’m so tired being so depressed seeing that many people submit themselves to be brainwashed and won’t try to get out of it (or probably are too afraid to get out of it?) Claiming that they’re so “high educate” who look down on “uneducate people”, they go down on their knees accepting that, as told, they should control their speech, their actions (that I understand as I have to as well, shame on me but like a previous poster, I value my freedom), but what I don’t understand is that they allow themselves to be thought controlled. How on earth those who claim to be high-educated people, at least more than “25 million” people, don’t even know how to read between the lines or learn to be skeptical. It’s just a waste of time trying to reason with these “high-educated” people because they’re so familiar with not thinking, believing in whatever they’re told (gods and goddesses, fairly tales). Good PR by royalists, BTW. Sorry for this blunt finish. I need to sleep.
One more thing, jothestrong definitely didn’t talk on my behalf.
Ricky Ward, source for that statement please. I’ve googled it and can’t seem to find a reference.
If you look at Andrew’s conclusion and Thaksin’s “he can be shining” sentiment, they’re so similar that the Yellows have all the reason they need to show that Andrew is being paid off by Thaksin. Andrew, don’t forget to pick up your paycheck next time you’re in Dubai! 😉
Your closing thoughts made me think of George Orwell’s comments about Hitler and his popularity in 1940, in Orwell’s review of Mein Kampf:
“Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades. However they may be as economic theories, Fascism and Nazism are psychologically far sounder than any hedonistic conception of life. The same is probably true of Stalin’s militarized version of Socialism. All three of the great dictators have enhanced their power by imposing intolerable burdens on their peoples. Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time’, Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death’, and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet.”
Just a quick note of Peter Jackson’s presentation as well – first I thought it worth noting that I was present at Democracy Monument shortly before the shooting began on the ill-fated April 10, and observed many of the red shirts prominently holding signs of the king – especially those in the “front line.” Secondly, I have a question – a great many of the red shirts have clappers in the shape of the foot (at least as many as of the heart shape shown in the presentation). I thought this was a curious choice given the symbolism of feet in Thailand. It has been explained to me that it is due to the fact that the yellow have/had clappers in the shape of the hand. But somehow this doesn’t quite satisfy – can anyone add any further insight?
Much as I like Thailand, the time is long overdue for the “system” to be overhauled. With all due respect to the King, he is out of touch with the realities of the current situation and is advised by a Privy Council as out of touch as he is. It is a shame but without revoking the lese majeste laws, nothing will change. The elite wants an ignorant populus as it seems to believe keeping them ignorant, they can be controlled. That is a misguided belief and will be the downfall of the country. The last thing needed is anarchy but potentially it is on the cards.
Oh, wouldn’t Thaksin love to be the second Phibun Songkhram if the Crown Prince becomes king. Quoting Stuart above, it certainly makes sense for him to court the Crown Prince and to speak glowingly of him to the chagrin of many others.
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Review of Chang Noi
Chang Noi is the only saving grace for The Nation, pulling it up from the other spectre of Soponism.
Quite ironic that one of the top rate editorial of Thai political-sociological sphere is written in English for foreigner to read.
Royal reds, reds, and rebel reds
I also don’t get the point of the comparison.
If you went to the Russian houses in 1948 you’d see them worshiping Stalin, if you go to Isanese houses in 2010 you’ll see them worshiping The King.
Thaksin, though, is said to be as popular for some but there’s no evidence of any anti-monarchy sentiment in the countryside, certainly not on the scale Alladin implied.
Royal reds, reds, and rebel reds
Uh, Stalin was respected because he was feared, HM is respected not because he’s stupendously rich (which he is) but because he’s bothered to do some things that positively impacted upon the lives of certain communities in Thailand (more than most kings have bothered to do over the past few centuries.) That’s as much as I can say on this issue.
Royal reds, reds, and rebel reds
well put rodger (#11)!
indeed “ajarn”john, that post seems to have gone way over your head…
just as a suggestion: perhaps you could take some of your thai friends on a walk out in the fields, or out on a boat to the middle of a river (i.e. somewhere where they can be sure they are not being overheard)… and then have a chat about the thai monarchy… provided they trust you, i dare say that you may here some surprising things indeed!!! (i am speaking from experience here…)
ABC TV on Thai politics
frustrated thai – Totally agreed with you, I have so much problem talking to my friends, even among some red aligned one who also got degree from oversea.
Eric Campbell on journalistic duty
Yes Chris, very good points indeed.
Regardless, I do expect more from the ABC, and like it or not, the ABC with its due independence, although not a mouthpiece for the government, is the National Broadcaster. It’s not a good look on the world stage.
Eric Campbell on journalistic duty
Perhaps Campbell treats Thais as some sort of primitive people who should be awarded as much privacy as zoo animals.
It’s not only Campbell, though, he produced the show for the general public, for their tastes, and his superiors approved it, and they supposed to know their audience.
I can’t imagine them showing this kind of footage of any “white” royalty, government leadership, or plain celebrities.
Or Chinese or Japanese, for that matter.
Why King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai Democracy
RE:” I’m anonymous for obvious reasons” question about Abhisit’s comment.
I too Googled to see if I could find the interview. What I found was one with him talking about the southern problem on Youtube.
Perhaps his office would be happy to help with information or maybe it might be an interesting angle for an Al Jazeera journalist to follow up?
His comment could also be interpreted to say that he looks forward to a politically active monarch in the future and so also as support for the Crown Prince. So maybe he and the exiled PM have more in common than appears on the surface.
Eric Campbell on journalistic duty
Embarrassed Journalist #17 I agree with you.
Campbell’s report would have been a better one, certainly a more diplomatic, balanced and fairer one :
1) if this breach of personal privacy had not been broadcast
2) somebody with contrary views to Paul Handley (eg. Grant Evans) had also been interviewed.
To me, this second point seemed a more serious flaw than the first – though I can understand conservative Thais taking great offense re. the first.
Personally this was my first time seeing that video, of which I’d previously only heard about but could scarcely believe.
As for government funding of the ABC, as you probably know this is done through an independent statutory body.
Unlike in Thailand, the Australian Government can not control programme content.
Why King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai Democracy
Andrew Walker
”For this reason I think that King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai democracy.”
Andrew, a real stab in the dark.
Your assertion undermines itself precisely because our/ your knowledge of the current prince is so vague and based mostly on speculation and rumour. However, if we take the rumours etc. as a basis for future behaviours, do you actually believe that the prince will simply sit idly by, while the Thai people assert their desire for change?
”Thaksin’s comments highlighted anxiety that a symbolically weak king will open up spaces in Thai political life where alternative forms of political authority can be asserted.”
And again.
Opening ”up spaces” may also lead the way for astute opportunism for those less savoury characters in the military, and (apparently) aligned to the prince, to take full advantage of his symbolic weakness and plunge Thailand into a military dictatorship, yet again.
Why King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai Democracy
Vinai, I think this article is not saying that Vajiralongkorn will be a good king of Thailand, but rather, his excesses as you have pointed out will force Thais to look at the monarch in a different light. If the king is seen as a demigod and is worshipped, how can Thais discuss about the monarchy in a frank and open manner? But if the king is seen as a person with many failings, Thais will inevitably need to voice out their dissatisfactions openly and this will be the beginning of a healthy democracy for Thailand and could even see the lese majeste law being relaxed or removed. Hence the title of this article.
More scenes from the stand-off in Bangkok
Apart from the fact that it is sometimes amusing to see large numbers of people doing the same thing (the corps de ballet in Swan Lake; the troops duck-walking in a Nth Korea military parade & saluting the revered leader always make me giggle), I can’t see your point. The “high level of planning and organisation of these rallies” is one of their saving graces. The stage managers are to be commended.
On the 2 occasions I’ve taken a stroll through ‘the mob’, I’ve been impressed by the organisation: cleaner streets than usual, due to all the well-placed giant garbage bags, orderly food-stalls, rows of stalls vending Red paraphernalia (including the flags), neat tubular-framed tents, all marked with names of the area of the occupants (& guarded), and security posts. Last Saturday evening my shoulder-bag was checked 3 times in the space of an hour and a half at Ratchaprasong, & I was impressed, making it all the more horrifying (and mysterious) when the violence occurred.
You’re right: it’s “nothing to do with fed up citizens spontaneously trying to reclaim their streets.” But they ARE fed up up, and have been for a long time. “Reclaim” be buggered. What they’re trying to claim is something they’ve never had. Thank god for the lack of what you call spontaneity. It’d be chaos.
Perhaps some of what you take for boredom is fatigue – & stress. And yes, it is boring doing this sort of thing on a 24/7 basis. But that doesn’t mean they’re insincere.
The Embassy and the ABC
Where are the Thai Royals whilst grenades are going off in the main streets of Bangkok? Maybe everyone needs to see this show.
ABC TV on Thai politics
frustrated thai – 79
I work with a number of (educated) thai colleagues who express the very same sentiments as you. There is a very real feeling among them that things are not right in Thailand for a number of very real reaons.
These include the lesse majeste laws, widespread corruption, the ineptitude of the police and army, a weak legal system,an extremely poor education system etc. etc.
Commentators and posters on this blog have often pointed to these reasons, but beyond that, there is little or nothing that we can do to change the current status quo. Many of us here are foreigners in your country, so, simply put, it’s not our business.
We, like you, are impotent observers, although we seem to be able to say what we think.
I wish Thai people would protest on the streets about the real issues, that are the root causes of this country’s problems, but they don’t.
Fear is a powerful motivator not to do something we know to be right.
Don’t feel disheartened – things must and will change.
ABC TV on Thai politics
I am Thai and very frustrated. There are so much I need to express but it’s pretty late at night and I’m so tired being so depressed seeing that many people submit themselves to be brainwashed and won’t try to get out of it (or probably are too afraid to get out of it?) Claiming that they’re so “high educate” who look down on “uneducate people”, they go down on their knees accepting that, as told, they should control their speech, their actions (that I understand as I have to as well, shame on me but like a previous poster, I value my freedom), but what I don’t understand is that they allow themselves to be thought controlled. How on earth those who claim to be high-educated people, at least more than “25 million” people, don’t even know how to read between the lines or learn to be skeptical. It’s just a waste of time trying to reason with these “high-educated” people because they’re so familiar with not thinking, believing in whatever they’re told (gods and goddesses, fairly tales). Good PR by royalists, BTW. Sorry for this blunt finish. I need to sleep.
One more thing, jothestrong definitely didn’t talk on my behalf.
Why King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai Democracy
Ricky Ward, source for that statement please. I’ve googled it and can’t seem to find a reference.
If you look at Andrew’s conclusion and Thaksin’s “he can be shining” sentiment, they’re so similar that the Yellows have all the reason they need to show that Andrew is being paid off by Thaksin. Andrew, don’t forget to pick up your paycheck next time you’re in Dubai! 😉
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Enrico: I humbly thank you.
Your closing thoughts made me think of George Orwell’s comments about Hitler and his popularity in 1940, in Orwell’s review of Mein Kampf:
“Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades. However they may be as economic theories, Fascism and Nazism are psychologically far sounder than any hedonistic conception of life. The same is probably true of Stalin’s militarized version of Socialism. All three of the great dictators have enhanced their power by imposing intolerable burdens on their peoples. Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time’, Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death’, and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet.”
Video of Thailand on the Verge
Just a quick note of Peter Jackson’s presentation as well – first I thought it worth noting that I was present at Democracy Monument shortly before the shooting began on the ill-fated April 10, and observed many of the red shirts prominently holding signs of the king – especially those in the “front line.” Secondly, I have a question – a great many of the red shirts have clappers in the shape of the foot (at least as many as of the heart shape shown in the presentation). I thought this was a curious choice given the symbolism of feet in Thailand. It has been explained to me that it is due to the fact that the yellow have/had clappers in the shape of the hand. But somehow this doesn’t quite satisfy – can anyone add any further insight?
The Embassy and the ABC
Much as I like Thailand, the time is long overdue for the “system” to be overhauled. With all due respect to the King, he is out of touch with the realities of the current situation and is advised by a Privy Council as out of touch as he is. It is a shame but without revoking the lese majeste laws, nothing will change. The elite wants an ignorant populus as it seems to believe keeping them ignorant, they can be controlled. That is a misguided belief and will be the downfall of the country. The last thing needed is anarchy but potentially it is on the cards.
Why King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai Democracy
Oh, wouldn’t Thaksin love to be the second Phibun Songkhram if the Crown Prince becomes king. Quoting Stuart above, it certainly makes sense for him to court the Crown Prince and to speak glowingly of him to the chagrin of many others.