“At 20 second mark there are shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera, but, more significantly, at around 1 min mark there and is a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right, it’s probably not the first one since people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers for a few seconds earlier.
Is it a third hand or reds are going to own up for that shooter?”
Not wanting to compete with this one-man wannabe Warren Commission, but worth noting what was left out of the above – that the “shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera” are all fired upwards – in the same direction as the “people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers”.
If that is“a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right”….. is this now supposed to be red-on-red shooting?
On a separate point, I’m wondering what has led to MICT blocking the YouTube video of Al Jazeera footage showing a balaclava-clad figure (with a red handkerchief hanging from his belt) walking around with what is clearly an AK47 [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJt8K8Scalk ]. Frames from it are still on the OK Nation blog [ http://www.oknation.net/blog/canthai/2010/04/11/entry-5 ] – along with a strange photo of another balaclava clad figure carrying a heavy rifle; he’s also adorned with a red (Isan?) handkerchief, is wearing surgical gloves and is followed by a younger guy carrying two more rifles. Who are they?
The Nation (i.e. note the health warning) is reporting that autopsies of nine protesters show impacts from “super power rifles”*. The stock picture accompanying their story appears to be of the Barrett M82 or M107** sniper rifle – either fires a .50 calibre bullet at very high velocity.
One assumes that wounds inflicted by that kind of round would be very distinctive – and not easily confused with the results of smaller calibre rounds.
It seems now a solution has been found: the dissolution of democrat party.
I guess it will bring a military ‘caretaker’ in power smoothly, in charge of organising elections (rings a bell to anybody?). looks like another ‘judicial coup’.
back to square 1, september 2006.
it seems that within the current organisation of power in Thailand (both official and unnofficial) no democratic structure and process can survive.
yes, he was not simply shot, but in a very ruthless professional way.
(read my thoughts in a previous comment)
“hit the floor hardly” – sure, as hard as anyone who falls would hit it, but that was not the reason why the content of his remaining half skull spilled all over the asphalt so graphically. the reason for that was – high power rifle, perhaps with explosive bullet (although I guess even regular 0.5 caliber bullet would make enough damage).
—————————————
interesting are stories on Prachathai (“A Soldier’s Story” by one of those untried drafted conscripts who were used in crackdown), to me it is noticeable :
There were other units, some from other services
another similar one Thai Forum Pantip (only in Thai language – perhaps someone may translate it?) is more interesting, it gives more details and about real state of affairs in army, and service of conscripts. in it he says things like “we have no choice but follow orders” (even mentioned – I don’t know how true is it – that officers would stay behind and shoot anyone who doesn’t follow the orders to shoot protesters), that soldiers who were brought to Bangkok for crowd control get 500 Baht per day, 200 of which are “deducted” (given comparison with those in South, who get only 120 Baht after “deduction”), and other details.
Veera Muksikapong one of the UDD’s leaders is reading your post right now on the stage, actually he changed some word in #6 due to fact that is risky for thai.
What next? A deus ex machina! ” The Election Commission on Monday decided by a vote of 4-1 to recommend the dissolution of the ruling Democrat Party for receiving an illegal 258 million baht donation case and the alleged misuse of a 29 million baht political development fund provided by the EC.
Well, I for one have been laughing like a drain! Amazing Thailand! I can hardly hit the keys. Where did that come from? jEEZUZ, HOW TREALY RULY AMAZINK! There is a dog!
W2A#37 – I don’t think Thaksin can ever come back to Thailand without facing an extremely high risk of assassination : it’s a trap being laid for him.
Sure – he could return to Lanna and Lao Isaarn – probably without any problem.
But – Bangkok, southern Thailand : no way, if he values his life.
“An independent panel conducting autopsies on 12 bodies of the red shirts protesters who were killed when the red shirts protesters battled with troops revealed that nine of them were shot by high power rifles.
Pol Lt Gen Jongjet Aojenpong, a chief doctor of the Forensic Institute, a member of the panel, talked to reporters after completing 11 bodies.”
what rifle – is not mentioned, but photo looks like one from Wikipedia article for M107 – which can use 0.5 shells, can be explosive & armor piercing (HEIAP).
In Thai forums was discussed that “flagman” must have been shot with this kind of explosive bullet – considering the close-up photo of his skull (or more exactly remaining half of it). others killed had just a small hole in forehead.
If this is true – then it is a not some accidental death from a regular “stray bullet” but a DELIBERATE calculated purposeful cold-blooded MURDER professionally carried out with aim to scare other protesters:
1) few seconds before he was shot this man was calling to others to to return back / get away from fire (was he some sort of a leader ?) – thus obviously others around kept eye on / been aware of him;
2) he had a flag and was waving it – which drew additional attention to him from others, and that’s why when he was shot his fall was better / faster noticed by all because of flag. so, this was done by a profi for EXACT purpose, under special orders.
therefore, I would not accept explanations (or speculations) that “army were firing into the air” or in “self defense” or that only untried conscripts were used for crackdown. I bet whoever was in charge of this whole operation was 100% AWARE of the plan, of the deadliest fire power (against man armed with … FLAG !) & profi employed for that, of the objective (to terrify the mob) and expected result : swiftest possible success of mob dispersal in short term AND in long term discouraging ANYONE/ ALL UDD / redshirts people (hundreds of thousands? few millions all over country) from any further protests.
therefore, I think whoever those “Ronin” were, and despite Abhisit calling them now “terrorists” – their blowing up 4 officers (which instantaneously changed the whole course of battle) who commanded such a ruthless crackdown was not an act of terrorism at all – but a VERY deserved justice ! I bet many people feel the same way – for example, as it was mentioned here in another thread on NM about Chiang Mai – red-shirts there reacted with cheers when they heard that “general was killed” (at least one of bloody m*f*rs like Sarit, Thanom, Suchinda)
another conclusion I draw is : those “ronin” KNEW of the army’s plan and how brutal would be the force used against the protesters – that’s why they have responded with no less deadly force. if so – it would not be so easy to nail them and exemplary punish as “terrorists” for the sake of saving “Democrat” government. because, I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, nobody from army (spokesperson Sansern, Anupong, Prayuth, whoever) has denied yet anything in response to Sae Daeng’s words (quoted by Matichon) about “snipers on the roofs”. and the fact that he was bold enough even to admit involvement to me indicates that he has sufficient intel and evidences of their own actions, which he will use against them in case of ANY attempts to prosecute those “ronin”.
I think they have been pressurising Banharm – reports that they went to his house [sorry can’t find link]
Newin will do his own deals in private.
IMHO by pressuring Dems but not openly attacking coalition partners it makes it more likely that coalition will split – see reports that they all refused to take Suthep’s calls.
Coalition partners stand for their own interests only and will follow whichever of two main sides looks like the leading horse. If dems weakened enough they will eventually jump to PT in exchange for juicy ministries.
PT / reds do not necessarily want to destroy all of ‘present de-facto regime’; they just want to be the ones in the driving seats. Big difference between aims of red leadership (inc Thaksin) and reds at bottom of heap.
Alienating coaliting partners will just push them closer to Dems.
You can be sure much is happening behind scenes.
And real red target is the white haired gentleman rather than MPs. They see dems as just puppets.
#3
JFL. You are every bit as slippery as Barnharn himself. (Which I suppose is what comes from you also being a party leader.) Perhaps their motives are the same as the Democrats. Keep the small parties sweet, because we may need them to shore up the next ricketty coalition. And then note you would still be playing the same old completely wanked-out Thai political party dirty tricks. Precisely the reason why not everyone here is buying into the rentamob fantasy. We’ve seen this sort of stuff go round and come round for decades. And are not at all impressed by the constant Blackadderism, “I have a cunning plan”.
David#4 – I’m not surprised by your analysis/ commentary.
Lanna is something of a mirror of Lao Isaarn – very deep rural resentment against the pu yai, and Bangkok “looking down on us Khwaii” buffaloes has been mounting for decades.
The really surprising thing is that so much of Bangkok society – including farang living there and nearby – apparently have n’t seen this coming, or else arrogantly dismissed it.
“There were photos of the flag bearer shot in the head on Dinso. His death is emerging as one of the iconic images of the fighting, captured as it happened on video and by cameras and mobile phones. I asked if anybody knew is name, where he was from. A middle-aged woman with a cherubic face and wire-frame glasses told me he was Nattawut Paentong, 36, from Samut Prakarn, a province neighbouring Bangkok, where he worked for a district administration organization. In death he looked strangely at peace.”
Rest In Peace Khun Paentong. You died fighting for what you believe in!
MediaWar and others – is General Pathompong Kesornsuk the same general who on stage at the last major PAD rally advocated bombing Angkor Wat ?
Was the good general too old – or too ignorant – to know that many of the major tourism businesses and tourists at Angkor Wat, were/ are Thai ?
Or does n’t he really care about his fellow countrymen ?
Jim Taylor #32 :
” not one shred of actual evidence against Thaksin doing anything to breach the law at the time [aside from some misdemeanor and constructed politically motivated heresay”.
Surely there’s hard evidence Thaksin endorsed / ordered the “war on drugs”, with its’ attendant killing of innocents (estimated by Amnesty International to be about 50% of those killed) ?
This country is hidden behind a veil of lies for decades. It’ll take more than a couple of thousands of people to blow the wind of change to lift it.
I for one am hopeful! The change is coming, and the Dems are too rigid to embrace it. 60+ years is already too long for the life cycle of these vultures! UNQUOTE
Now all we have to do is fight off the lies that some people now believe are justified by ……. [fill in according to your own personal prejudices.]
The problem is that many of us also think the redshirts are also way too rigid to embrace any real change. We see them embracing the monomaniac Thaksin, the crazy Seh Daeng, the old CIA man Chavalit, the dodgy Chalerm, the always suspect Border Police and the strangely-changed flip-flop Phanlop and we ask ourselves why. The answer comes back firmly. These are vultures circling a succession that looks piss-poor weak before it even starts. In other words, we will be looking up the barrel of some new dictator a few years down the road. And probably no longer with anyone capable of calling off the dogs at the last minute.
But what if we were wrong? Well, it’s not our country. I can afford to stay out of your conflict. I cannot afford to be in it at all. And if I acted as I would sometimes like to act, I would be condemned by you straight away. I might even end up as roadkill. I can’t even afford farang fees in the government hospitals.
So, all in all, it’s better to stay away from what we can not understand. Cowardly? You bet! I am not a martyr. There will be a few farang martyrs of course – but my guess is it will be few.
Understand this Leeyiankul. Farang count for nothing here. We are not respected. We are waiied to and then ridiculed and ripped off behind our backs. I can live with that. That said, I cannot fight for any cause that I don’t understand. I know a great deal about Thai political history, but I also know that I don’t understand the grassroots dynamic at all. Which is why I refuse to wear red, yellow & pink t- shirts. It’s not my country. We have our opinions which we express to each other to release the definite tension in which we live – as those vultures also spend a lot of time circling us too.
Frankly, I think your time in this forum is wasted. Agitprop amongst a completely cowed expat population will be hard work, with almost zero returns. There must be other more ripe pickings elsewhere.
I truly hope you find some far better leadership than that you possess at the moment. You need a far more politically astute leadership – not one led by the demented, the deluded, the bungled and the botched of the current political establishment.
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War at Khao San
#69
“At 20 second mark there are shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera, but, more significantly, at around 1 min mark there and is a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right, it’s probably not the first one since people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers for a few seconds earlier.
Is it a third hand or reds are going to own up for that shooter?”
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src&feature=channel ]
Not wanting to compete with this one-man wannabe Warren Commission, but worth noting what was left out of the above – that the “shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera” are all fired upwards – in the same direction as the “people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers”.
If that is “a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right”….. is this now supposed to be red-on-red shooting?
http://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/mobile-post-red-soldiers-and-police-combat-prayuth-soldiers-saving-hundreds-of-lives/ gives an alternative version. I hope it goes without saying that, without corroboration, it can’t be viewed as anything more than a claim.
On a separate point, I’m wondering what has led to MICT blocking the YouTube video of Al Jazeera footage showing a balaclava-clad figure (with a red handkerchief hanging from his belt) walking around with what is clearly an AK47 [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJt8K8Scalk ]. Frames from it are still on the OK Nation blog [ http://www.oknation.net/blog/canthai/2010/04/11/entry-5 ] – along with a strange photo of another balaclava clad figure carrying a heavy rifle; he’s also adorned with a red (Isan?) handkerchief, is wearing surgical gloves and is followed by a younger guy carrying two more rifles. Who are they?
Many questions and not many answers yet.
Red Armani
lol nice collection 😛
What next?
Abhisis can dissolve parliament, the other cannot.
War at Khao San
Her Majesty the Queen seems to be extending her sympathies to only one side of this conflict.
Bad move your Majesty.
War at Khao San
The Nation (i.e. note the health warning) is reporting that autopsies of nine protesters show impacts from “super power rifles”*. The stock picture accompanying their story appears to be of the Barrett M82 or M107** sniper rifle – either fires a .50 calibre bullet at very high velocity.
One assumes that wounds inflicted by that kind of round would be very distinctive – and not easily confused with the results of smaller calibre rounds.
* http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/04/12/national/Nine-of-12-victims-killed-by-super-power-rifles-30127091.html
** http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Barrett-M82
What next?
It seems now a solution has been found: the dissolution of democrat party.
I guess it will bring a military ‘caretaker’ in power smoothly, in charge of organising elections (rings a bell to anybody?). looks like another ‘judicial coup’.
back to square 1, september 2006.
it seems that within the current organisation of power in Thailand (both official and unnofficial) no democratic structure and process can survive.
War at Khao San
Spockusse #47
yes, he was not simply shot, but in a very ruthless professional way.
(read my thoughts in a previous comment)
“hit the floor hardly” – sure, as hard as anyone who falls would hit it, but that was not the reason why the content of his remaining half skull spilled all over the asphalt so graphically. the reason for that was – high power rifle, perhaps with explosive bullet (although I guess even regular 0.5 caliber bullet would make enough damage).
—————————————
interesting are stories on Prachathai (“A Soldier’s Story” by one of those untried drafted conscripts who were used in crackdown), to me it is noticeable :
another similar one Thai Forum Pantip (only in Thai language – perhaps someone may translate it?) is more interesting, it gives more details and about real state of affairs in army, and service of conscripts. in it he says things like “we have no choice but follow orders” (even mentioned – I don’t know how true is it – that officers would stay behind and shoot anyone who doesn’t follow the orders to shoot protesters), that soldiers who were brought to Bangkok for crowd control get 500 Baht per day, 200 of which are “deducted” (given comparison with those in South, who get only 120 Baht after “deduction”), and other details.
What next?
Veera Muksikapong one of the UDD’s leaders is reading your post right now on the stage, actually he changed some word in #6 due to fact that is risky for thai.
What next?
Mr Veera Musikapong just read your Interview on stage Mr Andrew Walker 🙂
What next?
What next? A deus ex machina! ” The Election Commission on Monday decided by a vote of 4-1 to recommend the dissolution of the ruling Democrat Party for receiving an illegal 258 million baht donation case and the alleged misuse of a 29 million baht political development fund provided by the EC.
The decision was made at a special meeting of the EC chaired by Apichart Sukhagganond. ” http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/174518/democrat-party-faces-dissolution
Well, I for one have been laughing like a drain! Amazing Thailand! I can hardly hit the keys. Where did that come from? jEEZUZ, HOW TREALY RULY AMAZINK! There is a dog!
The scene at Phan Fa
@longway: immature is kind of cute; especially when ‘mature’ means justifying censorship.
The scene at Phan Fa
W2A#37 – I don’t think Thaksin can ever come back to Thailand without facing an extremely high risk of assassination : it’s a trap being laid for him.
Sure – he could return to Lanna and Lao Isaarn – probably without any problem.
But – Bangkok, southern Thailand : no way, if he values his life.
War at Khao San
Portman #80
well, as much as Nation can be believed and their information considered credible, here is their latest article on the matter :
what rifle – is not mentioned, but photo looks like one from Wikipedia article for M107 – which can use 0.5 shells, can be explosive & armor piercing (HEIAP).
In Thai forums was discussed that “flagman” must have been shot with this kind of explosive bullet – considering the close-up photo of his skull (or more exactly remaining half of it). others killed had just a small hole in forehead.
If this is true – then it is a not some accidental death from a regular “stray bullet” but a DELIBERATE calculated purposeful cold-blooded MURDER professionally carried out with aim to scare other protesters:
1) few seconds before he was shot this man was calling to others to to return back / get away from fire (was he some sort of a leader ?) – thus obviously others around kept eye on / been aware of him;
2) he had a flag and was waving it – which drew additional attention to him from others, and that’s why when he was shot his fall was better / faster noticed by all because of flag. so, this was done by a profi for EXACT purpose, under special orders.
therefore, I would not accept explanations (or speculations) that “army were firing into the air” or in “self defense” or that only untried conscripts were used for crackdown. I bet whoever was in charge of this whole operation was 100% AWARE of the plan, of the deadliest fire power (against man armed with … FLAG !) & profi employed for that, of the objective (to terrify the mob) and expected result : swiftest possible success of mob dispersal in short term AND in long term discouraging ANYONE/ ALL UDD / redshirts people (hundreds of thousands? few millions all over country) from any further protests.
therefore, I think whoever those “Ronin” were, and despite Abhisit calling them now “terrorists” – their blowing up 4 officers (which instantaneously changed the whole course of battle) who commanded such a ruthless crackdown was not an act of terrorism at all – but a VERY deserved justice ! I bet many people feel the same way – for example, as it was mentioned here in another thread on NM about Chiang Mai – red-shirts there reacted with cheers when they heard that “general was killed” (at least one of bloody m*f*rs like Sarit, Thanom, Suchinda)
another conclusion I draw is : those “ronin” KNEW of the army’s plan and how brutal would be the force used against the protesters – that’s why they have responded with no less deadly force. if so – it would not be so easy to nail them and exemplary punish as “terrorists” for the sake of saving “Democrat” government. because, I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, nobody from army (spokesperson Sansern, Anupong, Prayuth, whoever) has denied yet anything in response to Sae Daeng’s words (quoted by Matichon) about “snipers on the roofs”. and the fact that he was bold enough even to admit involvement to me indicates that he has sufficient intel and evidences of their own actions, which he will use against them in case of ANY attempts to prosecute those “ronin”.
What next?
JFL:
I think they have been pressurising Banharm – reports that they went to his house [sorry can’t find link]
Newin will do his own deals in private.
IMHO by pressuring Dems but not openly attacking coalition partners it makes it more likely that coalition will split – see reports that they all refused to take Suthep’s calls.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Chart-Thai-Pattana-wants-charter-to-be-amended-bef-30125922.html
Coalition partners stand for their own interests only and will follow whichever of two main sides looks like the leading horse. If dems weakened enough they will eventually jump to PT in exchange for juicy ministries.
PT / reds do not necessarily want to destroy all of ‘present de-facto regime’; they just want to be the ones in the driving seats. Big difference between aims of red leadership (inc Thaksin) and reds at bottom of heap.
Alienating coaliting partners will just push them closer to Dems.
You can be sure much is happening behind scenes.
And real red target is the white haired gentleman rather than MPs. They see dems as just puppets.
What next?
#3
JFL. You are every bit as slippery as Barnharn himself. (Which I suppose is what comes from you also being a party leader.) Perhaps their motives are the same as the Democrats. Keep the small parties sweet, because we may need them to shore up the next ricketty coalition. And then note you would still be playing the same old completely wanked-out Thai political party dirty tricks. Precisely the reason why not everyone here is buying into the rentamob fantasy. We’ve seen this sort of stuff go round and come round for decades. And are not at all impressed by the constant Blackadderism, “I have a cunning plan”.
Red Shirts in Chiang Mai
David#4 – I’m not surprised by your analysis/ commentary.
Lanna is something of a mirror of Lao Isaarn – very deep rural resentment against the pu yai, and Bangkok “looking down on us Khwaii” buffaloes has been mounting for decades.
The really surprising thing is that so much of Bangkok society – including farang living there and nearby – apparently have n’t seen this coming, or else arrogantly dismissed it.
The scene at Phan Fa
“There were photos of the flag bearer shot in the head on Dinso. His death is emerging as one of the iconic images of the fighting, captured as it happened on video and by cameras and mobile phones. I asked if anybody knew is name, where he was from. A middle-aged woman with a cherubic face and wire-frame glasses told me he was Nattawut Paentong, 36, from Samut Prakarn, a province neighbouring Bangkok, where he worked for a district administration organization. In death he looked strangely at peace.”
Rest In Peace Khun Paentong. You died fighting for what you believe in!
War at Khao San
MediaWar and others – is General Pathompong Kesornsuk the same general who on stage at the last major PAD rally advocated bombing Angkor Wat ?
Was the good general too old – or too ignorant – to know that many of the major tourism businesses and tourists at Angkor Wat, were/ are Thai ?
Or does n’t he really care about his fellow countrymen ?
Scholars’ press release and letter
Jim Taylor #32 :
” not one shred of actual evidence against Thaksin doing anything to breach the law at the time [aside from some misdemeanor and constructed politically motivated heresay”.
Surely there’s hard evidence Thaksin endorsed / ordered the “war on drugs”, with its’ attendant killing of innocents (estimated by Amnesty International to be about 50% of those killed) ?
War at Khao San
QUOTE leeyiankun // Apr 12
This country is hidden behind a veil of lies for decades. It’ll take more than a couple of thousands of people to blow the wind of change to lift it.
I for one am hopeful! The change is coming, and the Dems are too rigid to embrace it. 60+ years is already too long for the life cycle of these vultures! UNQUOTE
Now all we have to do is fight off the lies that some people now believe are justified by ……. [fill in according to your own personal prejudices.]
The problem is that many of us also think the redshirts are also way too rigid to embrace any real change. We see them embracing the monomaniac Thaksin, the crazy Seh Daeng, the old CIA man Chavalit, the dodgy Chalerm, the always suspect Border Police and the strangely-changed flip-flop Phanlop and we ask ourselves why. The answer comes back firmly. These are vultures circling a succession that looks piss-poor weak before it even starts. In other words, we will be looking up the barrel of some new dictator a few years down the road. And probably no longer with anyone capable of calling off the dogs at the last minute.
But what if we were wrong? Well, it’s not our country. I can afford to stay out of your conflict. I cannot afford to be in it at all. And if I acted as I would sometimes like to act, I would be condemned by you straight away. I might even end up as roadkill. I can’t even afford farang fees in the government hospitals.
So, all in all, it’s better to stay away from what we can not understand. Cowardly? You bet! I am not a martyr. There will be a few farang martyrs of course – but my guess is it will be few.
Understand this Leeyiankul. Farang count for nothing here. We are not respected. We are waiied to and then ridiculed and ripped off behind our backs. I can live with that. That said, I cannot fight for any cause that I don’t understand. I know a great deal about Thai political history, but I also know that I don’t understand the grassroots dynamic at all. Which is why I refuse to wear red, yellow & pink t- shirts. It’s not my country. We have our opinions which we express to each other to release the definite tension in which we live – as those vultures also spend a lot of time circling us too.
Frankly, I think your time in this forum is wasted. Agitprop amongst a completely cowed expat population will be hard work, with almost zero returns. There must be other more ripe pickings elsewhere.
I truly hope you find some far better leadership than that you possess at the moment. You need a far more politically astute leadership – not one led by the demented, the deluded, the bungled and the botched of the current political establishment.