Justin Alick: ‘Just needed to relate what I saw last night’. Fine, but the whole tone of your piece shows where your emotions and sympathies lie, so you contradict yourself in saying you’re not trying to convert anyone. At least you own up to having pro-UDD views in your reply (views not unlike many others on this forum).
And please stop belittling others (such as Good News) who happen not to buy wholesale into the oh-so-wonderfully-democratic-and-just Red movement.
Some of us do have a deeper and longer term view of Thai political history – I myself studied it at university and continue to read widely on the subject. I would have thought as a politics student you would have a much more nuanced and balanced view of how the current situation has got to where it has, and the agendas, manipulations and subplots on all sides.
By the way, I’m not a PAD/Yellow supporter and disagree with the 2006 coup was the right way to go abour checking the excesses of Thaksin. However, despite the undoubted geniune democratic desires and sentiment of some of the grass-roots reds, to think that the movement has nothing to do with Thaksin’s agenda, or the self-serving program of the red leaders, is both simplistic and naive. The red masses are being manipulated in much the same way as much of the PAD were during the airport shutdowns…..
“Yellow shirts, (I hate them as well) never carried guns and grenades. During their long extended protests, there were never bombs around the city. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.
You can’t compare apples and oranges and complain about double standards. Please be fair.”
Yoda, all due respect to your opinions – but your memory seems rather selective.
Zaw Tun: I didn’t say Thaksin didn’t care about the red movement, it’s obviously in his interest that the reds win. I said most reds don’t care so much about him, and if you spoke with many of them you would know that too. Go on the rally sites, speak with people, and make you own judgement regarding their motives (no, it’s not money either).
Thanks Justin for the best piece of writing I have read in the past few days. You might have been tired, but you were also very inspired.
It’s amazing how some people are so blinded by their hatred of Thaksin that they not only approve of all sort of ugly things but have no tolerance even for eye witness accounts that don’t fit in their Manichaean political views.
The government is under the control of Yellow, the courts are under the control of Yellow, the majority of the media is under the control of Yellow and is this situation there are now no “checks and balances” in Thailand.
I am very worried that the government has followed a strategy here.
Firstly taking out all opposition media outlets.
Secondly, invoking an amount of violence to scare people and also killing one and injuring other journalists/tourists to keep them scared too.
The last thing the government wants is lots of camera’s and video’s taking evidence that they cannot control.
There will be a lull whilst all sorts of finger pointing goes on and whilst the Yellow side manipulates and manufactures things to “prove” it was all the reds doing.
I worry now that we will see the use of “false flag” tactics to swing the situation around.
I would not be surprised to see a number of solidiers sacrified in order to swing attention back to the bad reds, as opposed to bad government forces.
Will we see a deliberate “ambush” of 50 or 100 uniformed solidiers, carried out by other solidiers out of uniform for the covert ops, in order to give the government the boost they need ?
They would likely love to headline something like “mass murder of solidiers”t, and given the Elites disregard for the commoners life, it would not be surprising now to see a staged slaughter of some troops.
If anyone should be worried, it should be the solidiers now as very likely some poor ‘privates” could well get thrown to the lions “for the greater good of the Yellow cause”…….
The government seems very keen on another round of violence, given the threats and warrants against the Reds you can hardly expect them to negotiate with the big Yellow controlled judicial stick waiting to smack them.
I fear the military will now carry out a “false flag” attack, watch carefully.
Anyone there keep taking photo’s and videos as deliberate violence on either side must be stopped and prevented where possible !
This government was formed by a court ruling and a parliamentary coup, it is illegitmate in the eyes of the Thai population. Why do they not simply accept that and have an election ? Are they really so greedy ? Or do they have something to hide ?
I read with sadness the ever unravelling play that is being played, not siding with anyone but siding with peace as violence is never a viable solution and martyrs I have found sadly are soon forgotten
I have read many interesting articles from tourists, I am due to fly out to bk this coming Friday for a supposed two day stay in bk ony way to the islands, is it still safe generally? Ie are these riots taking place in small pockets of the city or is it widespread?
Really would appreciate some feedback on this ?
NongChang #14 Interesting that you whine about denial of opinion in one
breath and then in the next you scream at Thaksin to keep his opinion to
himself. I’ll bet he had to change his underwear after that.
Justin it was a great read. It’s the only report that has come close to the
output of the photo journalists in documenting the drama of this period in
Thai history.
Thanks.
Many of you assume that the brutality was done on by soldiers under direct orders of the Abhisit administration. Instead of accusing others of speaking without paying attention to the facts, please review your comments.
And please…about Thaksin being old news. I have spoken with poor village people from up north through some friends who have recently returned home. They have been instructed to say they don’t like Thaksin but are fighting for democracy. You don’t have to trust me or believe me. But Thaksin is very much important to the red shirt movement and is still very much at the center of it all.
If he was not, the red shirts would’ve been fully embraced by so many in Thai society who wish for peace. Red shirt demands and many of their points raised are extremely valid. Truth be told, I am closer to the poor and rural folk than I am with the upper class “elite.” I think most rich people in Thailand are full of shit. But the red shirts can’t do this. How they fight and who they fight for only hurt their cause.
Please stop accusing me. You will never break me because I stand for no one. I just want it all to stop.
The army hasn’t come out demanding for Abhisit to stand down, because Abhisit didn’t order blood. It remains to be seen who caused all this violence this time around. Pay attention to all sources of news and you will see details emerge. If Abhisit is found guilty I would call for his head on a platter myself.
If you recall, back during the Somchai government, the crackdown was ordered with explosive teargas. Yellow shirts, (I hate them as well) never carried guns and grenades. During their long extended protests, there were never bombs around the city. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.
You can’t compare apples and oranges and complain about double standards. Please be fair.
# Yoda: Completely on your side. Some comments here are great in terms of slogans and denial of any other opinion as being somewhat “brainwashed”.
Talking about greed? Let me add another country that doesn’t grant Thaksin visa anymore, Germany. So we have a list of countries that wouldnt accept dealing with Thaksin again as a statesman. Thaksin “himself knows full well that in the eyes of these” govts “he will never be” respected.
Talking about justice? BKK Post reported about an SMS by Thaksin to his followers that demanded for “justice”. But justice doesnt concern monetary values only, how about him? (War on Drugs, Tak Bai, Krue Ze) Dear Suzie, “blood and death has no meaning to a person with no conscience like” Thaksin.
I’m no journalist. I’m a politics student currently living in Thailand. And I make no secret of supporting the UDD and the so-called “Six Principles” it stands for. Again, take my word or leave it. I didn’t write this to convert anyone, I just needed to relate what I saw last night and I thought you guys might have been interested. But I’m afraid to say that there are no such things as “neutral” sources inside Thailand anymore- and everyone who claims to be one either doesn’t know enough about the situation, truly isn’t interested, or has an agenda of their own.
More BS from BStanG: “Prachatai English and Prachatai Thai are two different beasts. Prachatai English has mostly articles from the Nation and comments about selling viagra ….”
You know very well that Prachatai English has a lot more than articles from the Nation. And they unfortunately get swamped with spam comments selling Viagra and Cialis, but many readers post many comments there. (Do you suggest 50 years’ imprisonment for not removing spam comments fast enough?)
BStanG, you’ve now given us objectively verifiable proof of your deceptions.
Steve, #20. Aw you have burst the bubble. Not only do you know the
difference between satire and sarcasm but you have also defined it. With this
of course you went too far. Perhaps it was politeness on your behalf but I
believe Enrico’s target was much closer to home. Some of the posters here
at NM are spouting delusions that could only have been tapped out in Sonthi’s fetid bunker. Oh my god, am I suggesting they the hirelings of some obscenely wealthy yellow shirt, the pressure is starting to tell.
1. I’m basing my estimates on comparisons between the size of the crowd at its widely accepted “peak” a few weeks ago (conservative estimates placing it at around 100 000 to 150 000) to what it was that evening. I’ve been back and forth between the rallies at Central World and Pan Fa for the last few weeks and don’t feel particularly overwhelmed by very large crowds any more.
2. I understand your scepticism but assure you I’m barely exaggerating. When I turned up, the insides of the APC’s were already stripped for parts, and I didn’t see anyone with tools. I did see, on the other hand, hundreds of people walking away with various engine parts, including air filters and carburettors, seats and levers, not to mention various bits and bobs from the heavy machine guns they were stripping down. One of the vehicles (which I am guessing from photos taken earlier was the Army’s psy-ops truck) was already half missing, and was busy getting its radiator levered off by a guy with a bamboo stick. And further up the road, Humvees were getting rolled over by Red Shirts, all of whom seemed to be taking their (justified) anger out on the armoured cars.
3. Please. Come back to me when you know a little more about the less-reported sides of Thai politics.
4. Make no mistake- the Red Shirts are prepared to die to see their democratic rights re-instated. I have spoken to many of them who told me exactly that. The people who died last night are heroes in the eyes of the Red Shirts and have (in the memorial service held last night) and will continue to be (through stories such as the ones I heard their comrades relating to the assembled audiences at the actual site) regarded as such. Please show some respect for the dead and what they were fighting for.
If it was a breathless account it was because it was written at 3:30am and I was tired. And I will remind you that much of what you read in the press (even the international press) is simply recycled versions of “official” (read: state-owned) facts and figures, which have a vested interest in sounding dry and uninteresting at the very least, frenzied and blood-thirsty in their call to arms against the pro-democracy activists at the very worst. In Thailand, you learn to trust your own eyes very quickly.
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The scene at Phan Fa
Justin Alick: ‘Just needed to relate what I saw last night’. Fine, but the whole tone of your piece shows where your emotions and sympathies lie, so you contradict yourself in saying you’re not trying to convert anyone. At least you own up to having pro-UDD views in your reply (views not unlike many others on this forum).
And please stop belittling others (such as Good News) who happen not to buy wholesale into the oh-so-wonderfully-democratic-and-just Red movement.
Some of us do have a deeper and longer term view of Thai political history – I myself studied it at university and continue to read widely on the subject. I would have thought as a politics student you would have a much more nuanced and balanced view of how the current situation has got to where it has, and the agendas, manipulations and subplots on all sides.
By the way, I’m not a PAD/Yellow supporter and disagree with the 2006 coup was the right way to go abour checking the excesses of Thaksin. However, despite the undoubted geniune democratic desires and sentiment of some of the grass-roots reds, to think that the movement has nothing to do with Thaksin’s agenda, or the self-serving program of the red leaders, is both simplistic and naive. The red masses are being manipulated in much the same way as much of the PAD were during the airport shutdowns…..
War at Khao San
Yoda (#15)
“Yellow shirts, (I hate them as well) never carried guns and grenades. During their long extended protests, there were never bombs around the city. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.
You can’t compare apples and oranges and complain about double standards. Please be fair.”
Yoda, all due respect to your opinions – but your memory seems rather selective.
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
Zaw Tun: I didn’t say Thaksin didn’t care about the red movement, it’s obviously in his interest that the reds win. I said most reds don’t care so much about him, and if you spoke with many of them you would know that too. Go on the rally sites, speak with people, and make you own judgement regarding their motives (no, it’s not money either).
The scene at Phan Fa
Thanks Justin for the best piece of writing I have read in the past few days. You might have been tired, but you were also very inspired.
It’s amazing how some people are so blinded by their hatred of Thaksin that they not only approve of all sort of ugly things but have no tolerance even for eye witness accounts that don’t fit in their Manichaean political views.
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
These are worrying times.
The government is under the control of Yellow, the courts are under the control of Yellow, the majority of the media is under the control of Yellow and is this situation there are now no “checks and balances” in Thailand.
I am very worried that the government has followed a strategy here.
Firstly taking out all opposition media outlets.
Secondly, invoking an amount of violence to scare people and also killing one and injuring other journalists/tourists to keep them scared too.
The last thing the government wants is lots of camera’s and video’s taking evidence that they cannot control.
There will be a lull whilst all sorts of finger pointing goes on and whilst the Yellow side manipulates and manufactures things to “prove” it was all the reds doing.
I worry now that we will see the use of “false flag” tactics to swing the situation around.
I would not be surprised to see a number of solidiers sacrified in order to swing attention back to the bad reds, as opposed to bad government forces.
Will we see a deliberate “ambush” of 50 or 100 uniformed solidiers, carried out by other solidiers out of uniform for the covert ops, in order to give the government the boost they need ?
They would likely love to headline something like “mass murder of solidiers”t, and given the Elites disregard for the commoners life, it would not be surprising now to see a staged slaughter of some troops.
If anyone should be worried, it should be the solidiers now as very likely some poor ‘privates” could well get thrown to the lions “for the greater good of the Yellow cause”…….
The government seems very keen on another round of violence, given the threats and warrants against the Reds you can hardly expect them to negotiate with the big Yellow controlled judicial stick waiting to smack them.
I fear the military will now carry out a “false flag” attack, watch carefully.
Anyone there keep taking photo’s and videos as deliberate violence on either side must be stopped and prevented where possible !
This government was formed by a court ruling and a parliamentary coup, it is illegitmate in the eyes of the Thai population. Why do they not simply accept that and have an election ? Are they really so greedy ? Or do they have something to hide ?
War at Khao San
[…] […]
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
Laoguy #94
Oh, common — the Australian professors of political science are not thaaaat bad!
War at Khao San
I read with sadness the ever unravelling play that is being played, not siding with anyone but siding with peace as violence is never a viable solution and martyrs I have found sadly are soon forgotten
I have read many interesting articles from tourists, I am due to fly out to bk this coming Friday for a supposed two day stay in bk ony way to the islands, is it still safe generally? Ie are these riots taking place in small pockets of the city or is it widespread?
Really would appreciate some feedback on this ?
War at Khao San
NongChang #14 Interesting that you whine about denial of opinion in one
breath and then in the next you scream at Thaksin to keep his opinion to
himself. I’ll bet he had to change his underwear after that.
The scene at Phan Fa
Justin it was a great read. It’s the only report that has come close to the
output of the photo journalists in documenting the drama of this period in
Thai history.
Thanks.
War at Khao San
Many of you assume that the brutality was done on by soldiers under direct orders of the Abhisit administration. Instead of accusing others of speaking without paying attention to the facts, please review your comments.
And please…about Thaksin being old news. I have spoken with poor village people from up north through some friends who have recently returned home. They have been instructed to say they don’t like Thaksin but are fighting for democracy. You don’t have to trust me or believe me. But Thaksin is very much important to the red shirt movement and is still very much at the center of it all.
If he was not, the red shirts would’ve been fully embraced by so many in Thai society who wish for peace. Red shirt demands and many of their points raised are extremely valid. Truth be told, I am closer to the poor and rural folk than I am with the upper class “elite.” I think most rich people in Thailand are full of shit. But the red shirts can’t do this. How they fight and who they fight for only hurt their cause.
Please stop accusing me. You will never break me because I stand for no one. I just want it all to stop.
The army hasn’t come out demanding for Abhisit to stand down, because Abhisit didn’t order blood. It remains to be seen who caused all this violence this time around. Pay attention to all sources of news and you will see details emerge. If Abhisit is found guilty I would call for his head on a platter myself.
If you recall, back during the Somchai government, the crackdown was ordered with explosive teargas. Yellow shirts, (I hate them as well) never carried guns and grenades. During their long extended protests, there were never bombs around the city. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.
You can’t compare apples and oranges and complain about double standards. Please be fair.
The scene at Phan Fa
And I’ll refer you to this facebook page for pictures from this morning (copied from other thread.)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5477331&id=767838377&fbid=430234148377#!/photo.php?pid=5477331&id=767838377&fbid=430234148377
War at Khao San
# Yoda: Completely on your side. Some comments here are great in terms of slogans and denial of any other opinion as being somewhat “brainwashed”.
Talking about greed? Let me add another country that doesn’t grant Thaksin visa anymore, Germany. So we have a list of countries that wouldnt accept dealing with Thaksin again as a statesman. Thaksin “himself knows full well that in the eyes of these” govts “he will never be” respected.
Talking about justice? BKK Post reported about an SMS by Thaksin to his followers that demanded for “justice”. But justice doesnt concern monetary values only, how about him? (War on Drugs, Tak Bai, Krue Ze) Dear Suzie, “blood and death has no meaning to a person with no conscience like” Thaksin.
Be a man for once Thaksin, SHUT UP!
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
Srithanonchai #88 If the identification is correct that he was Australian then
he was obviously a professor of political science.
The scene at Phan Fa
@ Good News.
I’m no journalist. I’m a politics student currently living in Thailand. And I make no secret of supporting the UDD and the so-called “Six Principles” it stands for. Again, take my word or leave it. I didn’t write this to convert anyone, I just needed to relate what I saw last night and I thought you guys might have been interested. But I’m afraid to say that there are no such things as “neutral” sources inside Thailand anymore- and everyone who claims to be one either doesn’t know enough about the situation, truly isn’t interested, or has an agenda of their own.
State of Emergency in Bangkok
More BS from BStanG: “Prachatai English and Prachatai Thai are two different beasts. Prachatai English has mostly articles from the Nation and comments about selling viagra ….”
You know very well that Prachatai English has a lot more than articles from the Nation. And they unfortunately get swamped with spam comments selling Viagra and Cialis, but many readers post many comments there. (Do you suggest 50 years’ imprisonment for not removing spam comments fast enough?)
BStanG, you’ve now given us objectively verifiable proof of your deceptions.
Foreign Reds
Steve, #20. Aw you have burst the bubble. Not only do you know the
difference between satire and sarcasm but you have also defined it. With this
of course you went too far. Perhaps it was politeness on your behalf but I
believe Enrico’s target was much closer to home. Some of the posters here
at NM are spouting delusions that could only have been tapped out in Sonthi’s fetid bunker. Oh my god, am I suggesting they the hirelings of some obscenely wealthy yellow shirt, the pressure is starting to tell.
The scene at Phan Fa
@ Pharris
1. I’m basing my estimates on comparisons between the size of the crowd at its widely accepted “peak” a few weeks ago (conservative estimates placing it at around 100 000 to 150 000) to what it was that evening. I’ve been back and forth between the rallies at Central World and Pan Fa for the last few weeks and don’t feel particularly overwhelmed by very large crowds any more.
2. I understand your scepticism but assure you I’m barely exaggerating. When I turned up, the insides of the APC’s were already stripped for parts, and I didn’t see anyone with tools. I did see, on the other hand, hundreds of people walking away with various engine parts, including air filters and carburettors, seats and levers, not to mention various bits and bobs from the heavy machine guns they were stripping down. One of the vehicles (which I am guessing from photos taken earlier was the Army’s psy-ops truck) was already half missing, and was busy getting its radiator levered off by a guy with a bamboo stick. And further up the road, Humvees were getting rolled over by Red Shirts, all of whom seemed to be taking their (justified) anger out on the armoured cars.
3. Please. Come back to me when you know a little more about the less-reported sides of Thai politics.
4. Make no mistake- the Red Shirts are prepared to die to see their democratic rights re-instated. I have spoken to many of them who told me exactly that. The people who died last night are heroes in the eyes of the Red Shirts and have (in the memorial service held last night) and will continue to be (through stories such as the ones I heard their comrades relating to the assembled audiences at the actual site) regarded as such. Please show some respect for the dead and what they were fighting for.
If it was a breathless account it was because it was written at 3:30am and I was tired. And I will remind you that much of what you read in the press (even the international press) is simply recycled versions of “official” (read: state-owned) facts and figures, which have a vested interest in sounding dry and uninteresting at the very least, frenzied and blood-thirsty in their call to arms against the pro-democracy activists at the very worst. In Thailand, you learn to trust your own eyes very quickly.
War at Khao San
Good photos of the aftermath here.
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
Zaw Tun – if you says that Thaksin is the cause of all this, it get to shows how little you know about Thailand’s history.