Chris Beale in post 24 refers to “the Thammasat massacre “. Which one is he referring to? There were two. I presume he is thinking about the one that occurred in October 1976. I was present in Bangkok for the other one that happened on October 13, 1973, when helicopter gunships flew over the old campus spraying students and faculty with machine gun bullets. The story at the time was that Narong himself, the son of General Prapas and son-in-law to the PM/dictator Thanom, was in one of the helicopters giving orders to “shoot the rabble.” I undertand that Narong is still around, living comfortably in Thailand to this day with many important friends in government. There is no accountability for past crimes in this country for the poo yai.
This thread is rapidly becoming more bizarre by the day. The insults, the racism, the slaughtering of animals. I’m beginning to suspect that planB is using his parents computer without their knowledge.
could you please answer the below statement you made:
“Not to mention the lies that are stated that I can counter “line by line”.
When and if you are able to do this then I shall continue the debate with you on the subject matter.
Your bullying, racist and intimidating manner holds no sway for me or any readers in this debate, nor your prowess at killing wild animals that are unable to defend themselves (much like the tatmadaw who hunt and murder innocent Burmese citizens in order to get what they want).
I note in your prior tyrades that you were an apologist for SPDC actions against civilians in Burma. Now you are suddenly “against”
their “evil” behaviour? You have left me scratching my head as to who and what you really are.
there is no real debate taking place here. PlanB has been totally abusive (I haven’t complained as of yet) and I am simply awaiting his undertaking to:
“Not to mention the lies that are stated that I can counter “line by line”.
Now I think it is more than fair for me to continue to request for that response from him, rather than respond directly to Plan B’s rambling, racist tirade. When and if he does respond directly to that then the debate can move on and will become very interesting.
Killing an innocent animal is vastly different from killing a human especially a one armed to the teeth as a combat-soldier. You don’t realize how extremely difficult to kill an enemy soldier in a thick jungle of S.E.Asia.
In a jungle once the first shot was heard, both sides fire hundreds and hundreds of rounds aimlessly without their bullets hitting anyone from either side.
That standard of 1,000 rounds needed to fire to achieve an enemy causality in SE Asian jungle-warfare was originally discovered by the British forces fighting against the Malay Communists during the so-called Malaysia Emergency and later proven and used by the US forces in Vietnam.
Even the battle-hardened Burmese Army used it throughout the civil war as a minimum requirement for resupplying their troops with fresh ammo after clashes.
While I was in the army during the seventy’s I was the only one who can read and write well in my platoon apart from our CO, the DSA graduate lieutenant, and so I had to do all the boring platoon-paperwork.
And once I fortunately discovered that the battalion CQ used it roughly to release new ammo, I fudged my requisitions based on the enemy body-count after deadly skirmishes and successful ambushes.
One proven enemy dead, I would request 980 G3 rounds to be replenished, two dead 2010 G3 rounds, 3 dead 2990 rounds. And it seemed to work as our requisitions were never questioned or rejected ever again till I deserted the army.
I couldn’t find a similar rule for the hand grenades though. So I just asked round how many M36 grenades we actually threw and then added 9 or 10 more for every requisition as we always needed these hand grenades for the fishing.
I just wildly guess the Karen experience would be the same and so Dave E should verify my experience as a KNLA fighter he once was.
Ko Hla Oo
As a “once a year hunter” I can hit a 600 lbs elk from a distance of 500 meters, without a scope with one shot 50 % of the time with my cheap bolt action rifle.
Your tongue in cheek post #43 grossly under estimate the “killings” afforded by $ 10,000/y x 2 decades by Dave e/Dave500 et al contribution to KNU/KNLA against SPDC.
Will you care to describe how SPDC responded to this kind of “provocations” that they knew are from these yahoos ?
It is incredible that knowing and stating SPDC atrocious 4 cut strategy and yet not realizing promoting these abhorrent acts willingly.
Nick
My only point:
1) No killings is justifiable be it SPDC or otherwise.
That these shameful evil acts are openly and boastfully proclaimed as a heroic endeavor in New mandala is absolutely ridiculous.
Ludicrous that the fate of Myanmar citizenry’s sufferings come down to cheering a bunch of half witted white man on for killing Asian and teaching them how to under the premises of JUSTICE.
I am surprised with so many posters with such great ideas in New Mandala, yet nobody has come out to condemn those who can not tell what they are doing is absolutely unacceptable.
Evil prevail when good man failed to act.
However how we act determine how good we are.
Exposing evil deed of SPDC is good.
Does acting exactly like SPDC make one good?
I hope at least I have made clear these deeds so nonchalantly described here are as evil as SPDC qualitatively if not quantitatively.
As we condemn SPDC shameful acts against the citizenry by volition, let us not relegate the condemning of our own similar acts by omission.
Thais are increasingly challenging the Thai State across the north, northeast, and southern region. By putting incapable Aphisit to power with illegitimate means has made the situation worsen in all aspects from domestic politics, economy, to foreign affairs. Even the Former Deputy Intelligence Chief, General Panlop Pinmanee of the Puea Thai Party, said yesterday that if Aphisit government acts with injustice and double standard against Lieutenant General Kattiya Sawaddipol (SaeDang), there will be a civil war.
The simple fact is majority of Thais do not accept Aphisit. He has neither ability nor leadership to govern. With Aphisit, Thailand is in deep political crisis, increased corruption, violent insurgency, and serious military tension with the neighbor. It is for the sake of Thailand that she has a new leader.
I’m sure that many NM readers are finding this debate interesting. For the purposes of moving it along can I please ask that you both make your points and responses as cordially as possible, without undue repetition, or we will have to start editing this thread more strictly.
Single 5.56 x 45 mm full-metal-jacketed M16 round should cost about 5 bahts wholesale direct from the Thai army on the Thai side of the border. At current 35 bahts a US$ exchange-rate, Dave’s donation will give KNLA more than 1.4 million brand-new live rounds.
Based on the time-tested jungle-warfare statistics of 1,000 rounds fired for one enemy death, Dave’s US$ 200,000 should kill at least 1,400 Burmese soldiers provided KNLA is still fighting on the Burma’s side of the border, not against each other.
That shouldl wipe out the two full strength infantry battalions from Burmese army, and if KNLA doesn’t provide the credible evidence for that sort of kill to Dave he should complain, ha ha ha.
I have no particular dog in the fight. My editorial discretion is, as ever, indiscreet. All part of what makes New Mandala tick, I suppose. And Sidel’s 2007 review is, I’d suggest, the sort of thing that many NM readers want to read. The reality of academic reviewing is that few of us (except for those who follow these specific debates very closely) would stumble upon it (in the Journal of Islamic Studies) if it isn’t pointed out.
On the other side, I assume this recent monograph from Abuza puts his position pretty forcefully.
I haven’t read that Abuza analysis but I would, as always, be keen to hear views from those who have…
Dave e
Good for you! I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Now how many SPCD troop did that $$ manage to kill in your estimation?
Just very rough estimate.
Have you read my post #35 or do I need to quote myself?
Just the first Paragraph.
I don’t get it Nich; is there some law in Australia that you must put some sort of boilerplate disclaimer at the end of blog posts when discussing academics who hold views like Abuza’s?
I mean, when you post about McCargo and his assertion that “there is no jihad” in Southern Thailand, only disgruntled citizens who don’t know how to “network”, (or something to that effect) you don’t put a postscript hatchet job as an addendum.
I realize that you have the right to exercise your editorial prerogative, but, in the future, could you be less indiscreet about it?
Thailand should be a much fairer society than it is today. I’m not suggesting that recent conflict is all about poor vs rich. It’s more complex than that.
Recent conflict is more than just about poor v rich. Precisely! It is in fact not even the key issue!
I’ve never been a fan of Phasuk. An ‘intellectual/academic’ like herself (with a Professorial rank!) in a country where there’s 24/7 propaganda about the monarchy, who remains silence – virtually completely – about it (while at the same time expresses in a very, very high profile manner, a critical stance towards politicians – how many books on Thaksin she put out these past few years?!), is not really an intellectual – she is just a state functionary Her recent, fairly regular, talks about the ‘social-economic inequality’, while superficially looks ‘good’, are in my opinion, just a substitute, an exercise in intellectual ‘disguise’ or ‘cover-up’, for this sad lack of courage of a real intellectual.
Now she even manages, in a seminar on ‘Thailand in Transition’ to avoid the monarchy issue altogether! This definitely confirms my judgement above.
It’s sad really, the fact that this is a ‘leading intellectual/academic’ of this country, and that quite a lot of ‘educated people’ have ‘fallen for’ this kind of superficial ‘equality-fairness-justice’ facade. People should have more respect for Da Torpido (even if, like myself, disagreeing with her tactics), than this kind of ‘intellectual’.
This reminds me of the related lecture in Thialand Update by Nualnoi Trirat. I saw only the twitter message mentioning about ratio of VAT to income tax. Can anyone post the text of her presentation here as well?
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Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Chris Beale in post 24 refers to “the Thammasat massacre “. Which one is he referring to? There were two. I presume he is thinking about the one that occurred in October 1976. I was present in Bangkok for the other one that happened on October 13, 1973, when helicopter gunships flew over the old campus spraying students and faculty with machine gun bullets. The story at the time was that Narong himself, the son of General Prapas and son-in-law to the PM/dictator Thanom, was in one of the helicopters giving orders to “shoot the rabble.” I undertand that Narong is still around, living comfortably in Thailand to this day with many important friends in government. There is no accountability for past crimes in this country for the poo yai.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
This thread is rapidly becoming more bizarre by the day. The insults, the racism, the slaughtering of animals. I’m beginning to suspect that planB is using his parents computer without their knowledge.
Thongchai on Thailand in transition
Thongchai: How have you interpreted the monarch’s shift to pink? Relevant?
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Plan B,
could you please answer the below statement you made:
“Not to mention the lies that are stated that I can counter “line by line”.
When and if you are able to do this then I shall continue the debate with you on the subject matter.
Your bullying, racist and intimidating manner holds no sway for me or any readers in this debate, nor your prowess at killing wild animals that are unable to defend themselves (much like the tatmadaw who hunt and murder innocent Burmese citizens in order to get what they want).
I note in your prior tyrades that you were an apologist for SPDC actions against civilians in Burma. Now you are suddenly “against”
their “evil” behaviour? You have left me scratching my head as to who and what you really are.
Regards,
Dave E
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Hi Nic,
there is no real debate taking place here. PlanB has been totally abusive (I haven’t complained as of yet) and I am simply awaiting his undertaking to:
“Not to mention the lies that are stated that I can counter “line by line”.
Now I think it is more than fair for me to continue to request for that response from him, rather than respond directly to Plan B’s rambling, racist tirade. When and if he does respond directly to that then the debate can move on and will become very interesting.
Regards,
Dave E
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Plan B,
Killing an innocent animal is vastly different from killing a human especially a one armed to the teeth as a combat-soldier. You don’t realize how extremely difficult to kill an enemy soldier in a thick jungle of S.E.Asia.
In a jungle once the first shot was heard, both sides fire hundreds and hundreds of rounds aimlessly without their bullets hitting anyone from either side.
That standard of 1,000 rounds needed to fire to achieve an enemy causality in SE Asian jungle-warfare was originally discovered by the British forces fighting against the Malay Communists during the so-called Malaysia Emergency and later proven and used by the US forces in Vietnam.
Even the battle-hardened Burmese Army used it throughout the civil war as a minimum requirement for resupplying their troops with fresh ammo after clashes.
While I was in the army during the seventy’s I was the only one who can read and write well in my platoon apart from our CO, the DSA graduate lieutenant, and so I had to do all the boring platoon-paperwork.
And once I fortunately discovered that the battalion CQ used it roughly to release new ammo, I fudged my requisitions based on the enemy body-count after deadly skirmishes and successful ambushes.
One proven enemy dead, I would request 980 G3 rounds to be replenished, two dead 2010 G3 rounds, 3 dead 2990 rounds. And it seemed to work as our requisitions were never questioned or rejected ever again till I deserted the army.
I couldn’t find a similar rule for the hand grenades though. So I just asked round how many M36 grenades we actually threw and then added 9 or 10 more for every requisition as we always needed these hand grenades for the fishing.
I just wildly guess the Karen experience would be the same and so Dave E should verify my experience as a KNLA fighter he once was.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Ko Hla Oo
As a “once a year hunter” I can hit a 600 lbs elk from a distance of 500 meters, without a scope with one shot 50 % of the time with my cheap bolt action rifle.
Your tongue in cheek post #43 grossly under estimate the “killings” afforded by $ 10,000/y x 2 decades by Dave e/Dave500 et al contribution to KNU/KNLA against SPDC.
Will you care to describe how SPDC responded to this kind of “provocations” that they knew are from these yahoos ?
It is incredible that knowing and stating SPDC atrocious 4 cut strategy and yet not realizing promoting these abhorrent acts willingly.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Nick
My only point:
1) No killings is justifiable be it SPDC or otherwise.
That these shameful evil acts are openly and boastfully proclaimed as a heroic endeavor in New mandala is absolutely ridiculous.
Ludicrous that the fate of Myanmar citizenry’s sufferings come down to cheering a bunch of half witted white man on for killing Asian and teaching them how to under the premises of JUSTICE.
I am surprised with so many posters with such great ideas in New Mandala, yet nobody has come out to condemn those who can not tell what they are doing is absolutely unacceptable.
Evil prevail when good man failed to act.
However how we act determine how good we are.
Exposing evil deed of SPDC is good.
Does acting exactly like SPDC make one good?
I hope at least I have made clear these deeds so nonchalantly described here are as evil as SPDC qualitatively if not quantitatively.
As we condemn SPDC shameful acts against the citizenry by volition, let us not relegate the condemning of our own similar acts by omission.
What happens in Yala…
Thais are increasingly challenging the Thai State across the north, northeast, and southern region. By putting incapable Aphisit to power with illegitimate means has made the situation worsen in all aspects from domestic politics, economy, to foreign affairs. Even the Former Deputy Intelligence Chief, General Panlop Pinmanee of the Puea Thai Party, said yesterday that if Aphisit government acts with injustice and double standard against Lieutenant General Kattiya Sawaddipol (SaeDang), there will be a civil war.
The simple fact is majority of Thais do not accept Aphisit. He has neither ability nor leadership to govern. With Aphisit, Thailand is in deep political crisis, increased corruption, violent insurgency, and serious military tension with the neighbor. It is for the sake of Thailand that she has a new leader.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Dear PlanB and Dave E,
I’m sure that many NM readers are finding this debate interesting. For the purposes of moving it along can I please ask that you both make your points and responses as cordially as possible, without undue repetition, or we will have to start editing this thread more strictly.
Thank you for your understanding.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Dear PlanB,
could you please take the time to read my last two request. I have reprinted them again for you again below.
“Not to mention the lies that are stated that I can counter “line by line”.
I am still awaiting your line by line response/counter to the “lies” you claim I have mentioned.
I await eagerly for your well debated and analytical reply so that we can attempt to have dialogue on the issues that you take exception to.
Regards,
Dave E
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
PlanB and Dave E.
Single 5.56 x 45 mm full-metal-jacketed M16 round should cost about 5 bahts wholesale direct from the Thai army on the Thai side of the border. At current 35 bahts a US$ exchange-rate, Dave’s donation will give KNLA more than 1.4 million brand-new live rounds.
Based on the time-tested jungle-warfare statistics of 1,000 rounds fired for one enemy death, Dave’s US$ 200,000 should kill at least 1,400 Burmese soldiers provided KNLA is still fighting on the Burma’s side of the border, not against each other.
That shouldl wipe out the two full strength infantry battalions from Burmese army, and if KNLA doesn’t provide the credible evidence for that sort of kill to Dave he should complain, ha ha ha.
What happens in Yala…
Thanks LSS,
I have no particular dog in the fight. My editorial discretion is, as ever, indiscreet. All part of what makes New Mandala tick, I suppose. And Sidel’s 2007 review is, I’d suggest, the sort of thing that many NM readers want to read. The reality of academic reviewing is that few of us (except for those who follow these specific debates very closely) would stumble upon it (in the Journal of Islamic Studies) if it isn’t pointed out.
On the other side, I assume this recent monograph from Abuza puts his position pretty forcefully.
I haven’t read that Abuza analysis but I would, as always, be keen to hear views from those who have…
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Dave e
Good for you! I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Now how many SPCD troop did that $$ manage to kill in your estimation?
Just very rough estimate.
Have you read my post #35 or do I need to quote myself?
Just the first Paragraph.
What happens in Yala…
I don’t get it Nich; is there some law in Australia that you must put some sort of boilerplate disclaimer at the end of blog posts when discussing academics who hold views like Abuza’s?
I mean, when you post about McCargo and his assertion that “there is no jihad” in Southern Thailand, only disgruntled citizens who don’t know how to “network”, (or something to that effect) you don’t put a postscript hatchet job as an addendum.
I realize that you have the right to exercise your editorial prerogative, but, in the future, could you be less indiscreet about it?
Fair’s fair – Pasuk on Thailand in transition
Thailand should be a much fairer society than it is today. I’m not suggesting that recent conflict is all about poor vs rich. It’s more complex than that.
Recent conflict is more than just about poor v rich. Precisely! It is in fact not even the key issue!
I’ve never been a fan of Phasuk. An ‘intellectual/academic’ like herself (with a Professorial rank!) in a country where there’s 24/7 propaganda about the monarchy, who remains silence – virtually completely – about it (while at the same time expresses in a very, very high profile manner, a critical stance towards politicians – how many books on Thaksin she put out these past few years?!), is not really an intellectual – she is just a state functionary Her recent, fairly regular, talks about the ‘social-economic inequality’, while superficially looks ‘good’, are in my opinion, just a substitute, an exercise in intellectual ‘disguise’ or ‘cover-up’, for this sad lack of courage of a real intellectual.
Now she even manages, in a seminar on ‘Thailand in Transition’ to avoid the monarchy issue altogether! This definitely confirms my judgement above.
It’s sad really, the fact that this is a ‘leading intellectual/academic’ of this country, and that quite a lot of ‘educated people’ have ‘fallen for’ this kind of superficial ‘equality-fairness-justice’ facade. People should have more respect for Da Torpido (even if, like myself, disagreeing with her tactics), than this kind of ‘intellectual’.
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Gentlemen. Please.
Fair’s fair – Pasuk on Thailand in transition
This reminds me of the related lecture in Thialand Update by Nualnoi Trirat. I saw only the twitter message mentioning about ratio of VAT to income tax. Can anyone post the text of her presentation here as well?
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Dear PlanB,
I have sent over US$200 000 to the KNU.
Regards,
Dave E
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Dear PlanB,
could you please take the time to read my last request. I have reprinted it for you again below.
“Not to mention the lies that are stated that I can counter “line by line”.
I am still awaiting your line by line response/counter to the “lies” you claim I have mentioned.
I await eagerly for your well debated and analytical reply so that we can attempt to have dialogue on the issues that you take exception to.
Regards,
Dave E