Yes, Chris, it could get long, but let’s keep it short. Despite being able to explain the difference, you personally mix them up, using rumors (of your own) to attack others who report the rumors they hear. One rumor doesn’t cancel another.
Your comments on Yale are dross. Going to Yale and getting published by Yale UP are quite different and involve different processes. They can’t be compared, but this is your style. You never cite a source for your alleged false facts or rumors (or are you simplistically confusing these with figures of speech and style?) in Handley.
Give us some facts and we can look at them.
My initial response was drawn from you calling out others for rumors, commenting on social science methods (comparing a blog to soc sci??) and then basing your response on a rumor that Prem remains close to the queen…
Dave e
Please read #21 and tell me what do you think about some of my suggestions of really helping the people of Myanmar as a whole?
You and your ilk time and finance will do more to alleviating the wretched lives in terms of Health and Education that is again well discussed in New MandalaтДв, brought on by the west sanctions as well as SPDC ruthless hold on to power.
Incidentally, the results of the past 2 decades of nonsenses is my best witness I don’t need to convince anyone. Can you live with that?
[…] is the text of the presentation by Pasuk Phongpaichit at the Thailand in Transition workshop held on 8 December 2009. The presentation by Thongchai Winichakul is available […]
Dave e
Kerenni=Karen
KNLA and KNU are Karen people against SPDC or Bamar Hegemony.
Ko Hla Oo has already stated the inter-relationaship b/t Bamar and Karen people.
Bamar and Karen are Brothers fighting brothers started by colonists, your related ancestry.
As for the lies, didn’t I just pointed out one #27.
The bottom line is Dave e my diatribe reflect your self serving involvement that claim to serve nothing rather than more killings.
There are plenty of facts in your post and site that can be drawn by the public conclusively.
Will you like New Mandala to start a poll to see how many of the statements you made are self serving justification at best Jingoism at worst.
Common man, does not the fact you revel in being an outlaw said it all.
Wow, what a denial! http://dangerousdaveeverett.com/
I took a page from KO Hla and went further.
To expose people like you who will boast about killing others as a “mark of distinction”.
You are no better than SPDC than you profess to be against.
ps PlanB: I have never worked for the Karenni, I have worked with the KNLA. Please try and get your facts correct when addressing me. As stated in my above post you lose credibility when you do not deal with facts.
“White man know best”.
Not to mention the lies that are stated that I can counter “line by line”.
I am still awaiting your line by line response/counter to the “lies” you claim I have mentioned.
Please do not use New Mandela as an excuse for not responding. I am sure you will be able to do so without any problem.
I am prepared to listen to your point of view, but you do yourself no justice or credibility by bursting into a waffling, ranting diatribe.
This thread is read by many people who are versed in the affairs of Burma, its history, it’s people, culture and dynamics. It is these people you have to convince that your view is right. So far you have ranted and raved but not put forward any good arguments. Could you please try and do so without becoming personal in your attacks as you lose credibility when you do that.
Hla Oo responds credibly without attacking you personally. If you take a leaf from his book, it will help strengthen your argument.
Ajarn Somsak: Was it really such an ‘Eye Opening Day’?
How different is the Royal involvement in Angkhana Radappanyawut’s funeral to their involvement is the sad case of Juling Pongkunmul?
Have there been any young female ‘red’ victims (in the public eye) to truly prove the ‘eye opening’ point?
Of course, I bow to your your vast knowledge & wisdom, and would not be so bold as to disagree with you critique of the contention that royalists are using the royals/hiding behind the throne line of thought, but I just don’t see that so called ‘eye opening’ day as being as conclusive as some like to make out.
I think that day should be added to all the other actions (& non actions), and observers should then be able to draw their own conclusions, based on the cumulative evidence.
[…] Baht to 143 Billion Baht and has continued to increase since then. You also had 2006 coup leader admit to a 1 Billion Baht slash fund for “food and drinks” as a reward for those who staged […]
[…] At the “Thailand in Transition: A Historic Challenge and What’s Next?” event on December 8 (blogged on what Bkk Governor Sukhumbhand and former Senator Jon Ungpakorn said here and here respectively) academic Thongchai Winichakul spoke about the 1932 revolution in Thailand where Thailand moved from absolute to constitutional monarchy, precisely what happened and why it happened. New Mandala has the text of Thongchai’s presentation here. […]
Ralph – this could develop into a very, very lengthy discussion.
But to keep it brief – 1) rumours are gossip, hearsay 2) theory is just that – it implies sequencing events into some sort of attempt at a coherent whole, a vehicle – albeit it flawed – towards greater understanding. As such theory should not be based on unsubstantiated hearsay. FACTS are missing here.
Now to apply this theory about theory to the Thai situation :
theories here should not be based on mere hearsay, or gossip, inorder to be theories !
This is one of the major areas where Handley – very notably – is flawed. Eg. he writes that a certain high up person is feared and loathed down every soi. How can Handley possibly know ? Has he been down every soi ? I’ve been in thousands of sois –
plenty of talk about today’s prices, salacious “sanook”, Sek Loso, som tam, mor lam, etc., etc. I can not recall a single mention of said high person.
Furthermore, just because Handley is published by Yale does not necessarily impress. George W. Bush was also a product of Yale !!
And on this theme – did anyone notice that recent blooper in The Economist Samak obituary ?
The Economist wrote that the Thammasat massacre happened AFTER “a coup”. In fact it happened BEFORE.
Please Western journalists, get your FACTS straight.
In a functioning democracy, your suggestion would be the norm. However, Malaysia, very much like Thailand are not functioning democracies and the powerless have less rights.
In Malaysia, due to the strengthening of the opposition coalition – led by an emboldened citizenry – the balance of power is returning to some semblance on normalcy.
Senior General Than Shwe is a very cunning fox, for he knows what happened to Ne Win could easily happen to him and his overly privileged family once he leaves his controlling position of Armed-forces Commander-in-Chief.
Not only he doesn’t have the aura of Ne Win as the independence fighter and one of the founding fathers of Burmese army, he couldn’t even shake off the influence of his second-in-charge General Maung Aye over the army.
So what he does as a guarantee for a peaceful retirement before he expires is surrounding himself now with the powerful group of relatively young Lieutenant Generals he carefully hand-picked and promoted as chiefs, or Taing-gyoke in Burmese, of six BSOs (Bureau of Sepecial Operations).
With an average age of 55, all these LGs have served in various positions directly under now 76 years old Than Shwe’s many commands over time as almost all of Ne Win’s trusted lieutenants had served in his Burma Rifles Regiment.
The youngest of them, 52 years old LG Min Aung Hlaing is closest to Than Shwe almost like a son. He appears to be rapidly ascending from the divisional commander of Western-Divisional Command(Na-Pa-Kha) in Rakhine State to the Chief of BSO-2 and the 7th most senior member of SPDC in a short 3 year period.
According to a reliable source he was a trusted captain and then a major with Than Shwe for over 10 years in the late eighty’s and ninety’s. He even called Than Shwe Ah-Phe-Gyi meaning Great Father.
Just after Cyclone Nargis almost destroyed the Delta and a good part of Rangoon, he publicly proclaimed that Ah-Phe-Gyi was right and extremely wise for relocating the Capital to Nay-Pyi-Daw.
When a high level military delegation from China’s PLA South-Western Army recently visited Burma they were received not by Than Shwe or Maung Aye but Min Aung Hlaing and his powerful group of young LGs.
Even China is apparently wooing them for a good reason. Americans should target them too if they want to put a wedge among the generals. They are the Burma’s Young Turks.
By placing this group of young LGs in charge of all direct army commands Than Shwe has their gratitude and loyalty, also the guarantee for the long-term safety of him and his family.
Your point is correct. Australia’s democratic process and Rudd’s values are not the same.
It is my wish that right minded Australian’s will point out to Rudd that he’s support of a corrupt and racist regime in inconsistent with Australia’s democratic values.
ANother point about poor west effort made to comprehend Myanmar political complexity.
Anyone with half a brain will realize that SPDC consist of quite a few intelligent nationalistic military and none military thinkers who zeal is to hold on to power.
In their militaristic mind justified through their encounter with repeated threats from KMT and Communist to now KNLA and other assorted ethnic insurgents.
The article linked has clearly illustrated that point beyond a doubt.
Yet here we are still feeling incredulous to realize this simple fact.
These next generation SPDC successors do not have any western contact beyond Russia.
The successful ones are trained and hardened under most brutal atrocious Russian regiment. The unsuccessful ones some paid with their lives!
Guess how are they going to act knowing “Russian do not do Democracy”?
2 Decades, at least 2 lost generation that have absolutely no contact with the west to know any better besides constant threat of being attacked and vilified.
The west has a lot of catching up to do. In realizing the true nature of Burmese as well as other pertinent facts to make this engagement effort successful.
ANything less than success will see a DPRK like Myanmar with new #1 as beloved leader being supported by next generation SPDC.
The writing is already on the wall.
You can be sure that any comments coming out of the U.S. are politically motivated in one way or another. To understand Scot Marciel’s comments you would need to understand his own agenda and aspirations within the U.S. political system. What he says may be true or may simply be what he needs to say to advance. And ask yourself this…how does the U.S. benefit by keeping the staus quo in Burma? Or maybe more to the point how do they benefit from putting the spotlight on Than Shwe?
To be honest I don’t know that much about Burma, but I do know somewhat about the political and military mechanisms in the U.S. Be very sure that Than Shwe is a pawn in a much larger SE Asian chess game.
Overall it sounds as if they are handling the games very well. Who would expect Laos to make it to the football semi-finals? They are just not set up to deal with the distribution of a large number of tickets for sporting events like that. In the U.S. a crowd of 20,000 is nothing, my university has a stadium that seats just shy of 94,000 people every single weekend during football season.
Sounds like a blast anyway and I wish I was there for the SEA games. Sory Laos lost in that semi-final game.
Ko Hla Oo
THere will be a day when we can discuss these nuances that will serve nothing better than justifying the westerner self serving acts of Brothers against brothers.
Aung San is not a perfect leader and his well known imperfection is for the Burmese to know and the west to understand. Does the west choose to understand?
Here we are idolizing another progeny, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi and having these yahoo mentioning her as 1 reason for their senseless violence “Karenni against Bamar” all the while disregarding her “non Violence” means that she espoused so nobly.
Like her father she is neither perfect nor correct every time.
Yet she is held up as the answer to every Myanmar’s ill that only she can cure!
Again proof of how much the west give credence to complexity of Myanmar political situation before starting this useless careless “sanctions” and other unprecedented act that have led us to this present quagmire.
Let’s get out of this “RUD” created by the west than we can talk about the dream.
RUD?
Imaging a sniper trained by these mercenaries effectively “Increase SPDC body count”.
So SPDC does what it usually do the 4 cut strategy. Scorch earth, rape etc as mentioned by these yahoos above.
Just to deny the resistant from “SNiping at them again”!
Justifiable? not by the UN standard.
Effective?
Let’s ask Dave e, Rod and Charles F.
Thanks but no thanks guy.
Just go home and leave us be.
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Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Yes, Chris, it could get long, but let’s keep it short. Despite being able to explain the difference, you personally mix them up, using rumors (of your own) to attack others who report the rumors they hear. One rumor doesn’t cancel another.
Your comments on Yale are dross. Going to Yale and getting published by Yale UP are quite different and involve different processes. They can’t be compared, but this is your style. You never cite a source for your alleged false facts or rumors (or are you simplistically confusing these with figures of speech and style?) in Handley.
Give us some facts and we can look at them.
My initial response was drawn from you calling out others for rumors, commenting on social science methods (comparing a blog to soc sci??) and then basing your response on a rumor that Prem remains close to the queen…
Thongchai on Thailand in transition
[…] Phongpaichit at the Thailand in Transition workshop held on 8 December 2009. The presentation by Thongchai Winichakul is available […]
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Dave e
Please read #21 and tell me what do you think about some of my suggestions of really helping the people of Myanmar as a whole?
You and your ilk time and finance will do more to alleviating the wretched lives in terms of Health and Education that is again well discussed in New MandalaтДв, brought on by the west sanctions as well as SPDC ruthless hold on to power.
Incidentally, the results of the past 2 decades of nonsenses is my best witness I don’t need to convince anyone. Can you live with that?
Thai transitions
[…] is the text of the presentation by Pasuk Phongpaichit at the Thailand in Transition workshop held on 8 December 2009. The presentation by Thongchai Winichakul is available […]
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Dave e
Kerenni=Karen
KNLA and KNU are Karen people against SPDC or Bamar Hegemony.
Ko Hla Oo has already stated the inter-relationaship b/t Bamar and Karen people.
Bamar and Karen are Brothers fighting brothers started by colonists, your related ancestry.
As for the lies, didn’t I just pointed out one #27.
The bottom line is Dave e my diatribe reflect your self serving involvement that claim to serve nothing rather than more killings.
There are plenty of facts in your post and site that can be drawn by the public conclusively.
Will you like New Mandala to start a poll to see how many of the statements you made are self serving justification at best Jingoism at worst.
Common man, does not the fact you revel in being an outlaw said it all.
Wow, what a denial!
http://dangerousdaveeverett.com/
I took a page from KO Hla and went further.
To expose people like you who will boast about killing others as a “mark of distinction”.
You are no better than SPDC than you profess to be against.
Thongchai on Thailand in transition
As far as I understand, the monarch is also a royalist, isn’t he?
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
ps PlanB: I have never worked for the Karenni, I have worked with the KNLA. Please try and get your facts correct when addressing me. As stated in my above post you lose credibility when you do not deal with facts.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Plan B,
“White man know best”.
Not to mention the lies that are stated that I can counter “line by line”.
I am still awaiting your line by line response/counter to the “lies” you claim I have mentioned.
Please do not use New Mandela as an excuse for not responding. I am sure you will be able to do so without any problem.
I am prepared to listen to your point of view, but you do yourself no justice or credibility by bursting into a waffling, ranting diatribe.
This thread is read by many people who are versed in the affairs of Burma, its history, it’s people, culture and dynamics. It is these people you have to convince that your view is right. So far you have ranted and raved but not put forward any good arguments. Could you please try and do so without becoming personal in your attacks as you lose credibility when you do that.
Hla Oo responds credibly without attacking you personally. If you take a leaf from his book, it will help strengthen your argument.
PS What is your name?
Thongchai on Thailand in transition
Ajarn Somsak: Was it really such an ‘Eye Opening Day’?
How different is the Royal involvement in Angkhana Radappanyawut’s funeral to their involvement is the sad case of Juling Pongkunmul?
Have there been any young female ‘red’ victims (in the public eye) to truly prove the ‘eye opening’ point?
Of course, I bow to your your vast knowledge & wisdom, and would not be so bold as to disagree with you critique of the contention that royalists are using the royals/hiding behind the throne line of thought, but I just don’t see that so called ‘eye opening’ day as being as conclusive as some like to make out.
I think that day should be added to all the other actions (& non actions), and observers should then be able to draw their own conclusions, based on the cumulative evidence.
Sonthi’s secret billion
[…] Baht to 143 Billion Baht and has continued to increase since then. You also had 2006 coup leader admit to a 1 Billion Baht slash fund for “food and drinks” as a reward for those who staged […]
Thongchai on Thailand in transition
[…] At the “Thailand in Transition: A Historic Challenge and What’s Next?” event on December 8 (blogged on what Bkk Governor Sukhumbhand and former Senator Jon Ungpakorn said here and here respectively) academic Thongchai Winichakul spoke about the 1932 revolution in Thailand where Thailand moved from absolute to constitutional monarchy, precisely what happened and why it happened. New Mandala has the text of Thongchai’s presentation here. […]
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Ralph – this could develop into a very, very lengthy discussion.
But to keep it brief – 1) rumours are gossip, hearsay 2) theory is just that – it implies sequencing events into some sort of attempt at a coherent whole, a vehicle – albeit it flawed – towards greater understanding. As such theory should not be based on unsubstantiated hearsay. FACTS are missing here.
Now to apply this theory about theory to the Thai situation :
theories here should not be based on mere hearsay, or gossip, inorder to be theories !
This is one of the major areas where Handley – very notably – is flawed. Eg. he writes that a certain high up person is feared and loathed down every soi. How can Handley possibly know ? Has he been down every soi ? I’ve been in thousands of sois –
plenty of talk about today’s prices, salacious “sanook”, Sek Loso, som tam, mor lam, etc., etc. I can not recall a single mention of said high person.
Furthermore, just because Handley is published by Yale does not necessarily impress. George W. Bush was also a product of Yale !!
And on this theme – did anyone notice that recent blooper in The Economist Samak obituary ?
The Economist wrote that the Thammasat massacre happened AFTER “a coup”. In fact it happened BEFORE.
Please Western journalists, get your FACTS straight.
Getting away with murder
Hi Susie,
In a functioning democracy, your suggestion would be the norm. However, Malaysia, very much like Thailand are not functioning democracies and the powerless have less rights.
In Malaysia, due to the strengthening of the opposition coalition – led by an emboldened citizenry – the balance of power is returning to some semblance on normalcy.
Than Shwe all alone?
Senior General Than Shwe is a very cunning fox, for he knows what happened to Ne Win could easily happen to him and his overly privileged family once he leaves his controlling position of Armed-forces Commander-in-Chief.
Not only he doesn’t have the aura of Ne Win as the independence fighter and one of the founding fathers of Burmese army, he couldn’t even shake off the influence of his second-in-charge General Maung Aye over the army.
So what he does as a guarantee for a peaceful retirement before he expires is surrounding himself now with the powerful group of relatively young Lieutenant Generals he carefully hand-picked and promoted as chiefs, or Taing-gyoke in Burmese, of six BSOs (Bureau of Sepecial Operations).
With an average age of 55, all these LGs have served in various positions directly under now 76 years old Than Shwe’s many commands over time as almost all of Ne Win’s trusted lieutenants had served in his Burma Rifles Regiment.
The youngest of them, 52 years old LG Min Aung Hlaing is closest to Than Shwe almost like a son. He appears to be rapidly ascending from the divisional commander of Western-Divisional Command(Na-Pa-Kha) in Rakhine State to the Chief of BSO-2 and the 7th most senior member of SPDC in a short 3 year period.
According to a reliable source he was a trusted captain and then a major with Than Shwe for over 10 years in the late eighty’s and ninety’s. He even called Than Shwe Ah-Phe-Gyi meaning Great Father.
Just after Cyclone Nargis almost destroyed the Delta and a good part of Rangoon, he publicly proclaimed that Ah-Phe-Gyi was right and extremely wise for relocating the Capital to Nay-Pyi-Daw.
When a high level military delegation from China’s PLA South-Western Army recently visited Burma they were received not by Than Shwe or Maung Aye but Min Aung Hlaing and his powerful group of young LGs.
Even China is apparently wooing them for a good reason. Americans should target them too if they want to put a wedge among the generals. They are the Burma’s Young Turks.
By placing this group of young LGs in charge of all direct army commands Than Shwe has their gratitude and loyalty, also the guarantee for the long-term safety of him and his family.
Isn’t he cunning and wise?
Anwar and Rudd
Thank’s Gollum,
Your point is correct. Australia’s democratic process and Rudd’s values are not the same.
It is my wish that right minded Australian’s will point out to Rudd that he’s support of a corrupt and racist regime in inconsistent with Australia’s democratic values.
Than Shwe all alone?
ANother point about poor west effort made to comprehend Myanmar political complexity.
Anyone with half a brain will realize that SPDC consist of quite a few intelligent nationalistic military and none military thinkers who zeal is to hold on to power.
In their militaristic mind justified through their encounter with repeated threats from KMT and Communist to now KNLA and other assorted ethnic insurgents.
The article linked has clearly illustrated that point beyond a doubt.
Yet here we are still feeling incredulous to realize this simple fact.
These next generation SPDC successors do not have any western contact beyond Russia.
The successful ones are trained and hardened under most brutal atrocious Russian regiment. The unsuccessful ones some paid with their lives!
Guess how are they going to act knowing “Russian do not do Democracy”?
2 Decades, at least 2 lost generation that have absolutely no contact with the west to know any better besides constant threat of being attacked and vilified.
The west has a lot of catching up to do. In realizing the true nature of Burmese as well as other pertinent facts to make this engagement effort successful.
ANything less than success will see a DPRK like Myanmar with new #1 as beloved leader being supported by next generation SPDC.
The writing is already on the wall.
Than Shwe all alone?
You can be sure that any comments coming out of the U.S. are politically motivated in one way or another. To understand Scot Marciel’s comments you would need to understand his own agenda and aspirations within the U.S. political system. What he says may be true or may simply be what he needs to say to advance. And ask yourself this…how does the U.S. benefit by keeping the staus quo in Burma? Or maybe more to the point how do they benefit from putting the spotlight on Than Shwe?
To be honest I don’t know that much about Burma, but I do know somewhat about the political and military mechanisms in the U.S. Be very sure that Than Shwe is a pawn in a much larger SE Asian chess game.
SEA Games update at the halfway mark
Overall it sounds as if they are handling the games very well. Who would expect Laos to make it to the football semi-finals? They are just not set up to deal with the distribution of a large number of tickets for sporting events like that. In the U.S. a crowd of 20,000 is nothing, my university has a stadium that seats just shy of 94,000 people every single weekend during football season.
Sounds like a blast anyway and I wish I was there for the SEA games. Sory Laos lost in that semi-final game.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Ko Hla Oo
THere will be a day when we can discuss these nuances that will serve nothing better than justifying the westerner self serving acts of Brothers against brothers.
Aung San is not a perfect leader and his well known imperfection is for the Burmese to know and the west to understand. Does the west choose to understand?
Here we are idolizing another progeny, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi and having these yahoo mentioning her as 1 reason for their senseless violence “Karenni against Bamar” all the while disregarding her “non Violence” means that she espoused so nobly.
Like her father she is neither perfect nor correct every time.
Yet she is held up as the answer to every Myanmar’s ill that only she can cure!
Again proof of how much the west give credence to complexity of Myanmar political situation before starting this useless careless “sanctions” and other unprecedented act that have led us to this present quagmire.
Let’s get out of this “RUD” created by the west than we can talk about the dream.
RUD?
Imaging a sniper trained by these mercenaries effectively “Increase SPDC body count”.
So SPDC does what it usually do the 4 cut strategy. Scorch earth, rape etc as mentioned by these yahoos above.
Just to deny the resistant from “SNiping at them again”!
Justifiable? not by the UN standard.
Effective?
Let’s ask Dave e, Rod and Charles F.
Thanks but no thanks guy.
Just go home and leave us be.
Thongchai on Thailand in transition
Somsak:
Surely, the monarchy cannot just be a bystander that in amazement and total disagreement watches what the royalists etc. have been doing.