Terry: wasn’t that the point. The irony of a 40 year-old document that still has some resonance?
I am not aware of any thorough studies of Isan Khieow projects as a group (any else know?). There are some limited studies of “sufficiency economy” ideas conceived broadly. Rigg has done a bit (if my memory serves me correctly).
Chris, tell us, what is the difference between theory and rumour in your post. Why is it that you can discount another’s rumour with one of your own? And what is the difference between a book published by Yale University Press and regular commentary in the Nation when done by academic commentators?
I met david Everett in about 1982 1983 before he went to help the K.N.L.A. I met him with a cameraman friend of mine Derek Hobbs who also went and did a small documentary of David on the front line…This year I found myself also in the Karen state of Burma in a different location to that of David and yet thay all still remember the brave Australian soldier who came to fight for freedom and democracy in a land that has one of the worlds worst human rights abuse records…David should get the highest military medal of Australia for his unselfish and brave deeds…I was there at the 7th Brigade to make a documentery on the worlds longest war, and the worlds most undocumented war…60 years…sample on youtube “Last Line of Defence KNLA”….also youtube “Song for Burma KNLA”…love to know what you think David…who knows? maybe we can get him to say a few words on the show…Im Rod Power http://www.rodpower.net
Doctor J – one can practice human rights abuse in Thailand as much as one wishes, as long as no Thai who does wishes to set foot on Western soil.
Swiss minarets reaction is just the beginning. The West’s New Right will certainly target Thais.
David – I agree with mosts points you’ve made.
I did say the Lao government would be extremely reluctant to intervene and for those reasons you cited.
But the worse case scenario is one where the total situation has spun out of control, which may only happen if the more extreme elements bring on a disaster in Bangkok. Lao troops would find it hard not to intervene if all out civil war exploded, and their Isaarn family were in dire danger.
This would not necessarily be “suicidal” intervention : in the only modern battle they’ve ever fought, Lao troops defeated Thai. And Lao is protected ultimately by Vietnam and China. Indeed the topic in this forum is a bit strange in that there’s no mention of China. But certainly in my Lao trips Lao people have smiled with joy at the thought of China as their ultimate guarrantor.
This worse case bears consideration for two reasons :
1) the heated rhetoric of more extreme elements in Bangkok.
2) because of what has happened in Thailand’s far south.
When I travelled there nearly two decades ago, there was barely a hint of separatist violence. A truly lovely area, now tragic.
Here’s hoping the rest of Thailand, not least Lanna and Isaarn remain lovely without tragedy.
I’m glad it is General Sonthi and not Mr. Sondhi of the PAD, making this statement. Khun Sondhi is of course, up on a lese mageste charge, for repeating Da Torpedo’s offensive remarks.
Very ironical given PAD’s endlessly shrieking their loyalty to the monarchy. And of course, Khun Sondhi is out on bail, and does not have to suffer the appalling jail conditions of just an ordinary person like Harry Nicolaides or Da Torpedo.
David Brown and Name Witheld By Request : interesting theories,
but yet again Thailand’s notorious, huge rumour-mill seems in over-drive, in the Paul Handley style. Social scientists try sticking to the facts, in the style of Chris Baker and Professor Pasuk. Journalists have the luxury of reporting the fact of a rumour !!! But any sane person would quickly go mad believing every Thai rumour.
Personally I doubt Prem would never be so disloyal, or have anything like the necessary support, to stand against Her Majesty The Queen should she decide to act in a Regent role.
And anyone who develops Klong Toey deserves a medal if it
improves the lot of the poor people who live there.
Democracy simply means that the system allows the populace to govern themselves not a group of elites like the Brutal Army in Burma or a single family like LKY’s in Singapore.
Every Singaporean carries ID card and on it the race is clearly shown. The widely believed reason is that LKY wants to maintain the race ratio of roughly 70/20/10 percent of Chinese/Malay Muslims/Indian and Others respectively in Singapore so that his family and his descendants will always be in power. Smart dictator LKY really is, isn’t he?
Even the thousands of desperate Burmese engineers and doctors lucky to be given PR status recently in Singapore are forced to declare their real racial ancestry so that they can be properly classified as either dominant Chinese race or dominated Other Races including the Burmese.
It appears that LKY really wants to maintain that not-so -secret Race Ratio!
Without entering into any rights or wrongs, reds or yellows here, could this not be viewed as simply another chess move?
It is reasonably common gossip in Bangkok that Thaksin entered into business deals with the CP, particularly to develop the Klong Toey area. This was viewed by some as getting the CP in the pocket early as a balance against the increasingly annoying rise of the Privy Council. The gossip goes further to suggest that this alarmed the status quo greatly, who, seeing HM in poor health, knew that Thaksin would back the CP in any succession. This supposedly prompted Thaksin’s ouster.
I do not for a moment suggest any of this is true, but it could conceivably explain a few things, such as what we are reading in the Parry reporting.
Perhaps interesting historically or as a source for baseline data, but the report was written 40 years ago at the height of America’s involvement in Vietnam. At that time the domino theory was taking hold and the US were a bit paranoid about showing positive “development” results, while USOM had really cranked up the propaganda machine. I simply suggest the report be viewed in this light.
Suzie Wong’s comments on “Off-farm income” suggest that any such reports should be viewed in the light of the prevailing politics of the time, both regional and national.
What would be highly interesting progression from this is a review of the Isan Keo program and its affects on attitude, plus a more current study on the success of Sufficiency Economy + attitudes.
It may be of interest to readers that the University of Queensland will be hosting the World Press Freedom Day Conference in May 2010.
Further details may be found at: http://www.uq.edu.au/wpfday2010
Well, hundreds of Singaporeans move to Australia not because they are learnt but:
1. Not enough money to go U.S.
2. Failed the education system because its one 1-way system with no room for ‘fault’, ‘difference’ or ‘dissent’. (like myself.)
You’ll be surprised to know that the quality of education in Singapore is actually superior to the one in Australia in most cases.
Its just that in Australia entrance requirements are easier and that most universities depend highly upon the full international fees that (predominantly) Asian students, the odd Caucasian from Europe and even odder still Latino, hence not only makes things very easy for international students, but pander to them.
As for Aussies not being able to differentiate between Burma and Singapore – that is their failure. Stark ignorance of their position within the region does not contribute to their status as a ‘developed country’ nor contribute to your point of ‘learned people’ coming here or this land consisting of learned people.
Not understanding your neighbouring countries when you are the most vulnerable (only ‘white’ country in an isolated, vulnerable position in Asia) only serves to create resentment, ill-will and hostility.
Not to mention some of Australia’s biggest trading partners are Asian, and Australia depends very greatly upon Asian foreign investment currently to stabilise its economy in such turbulent times.
I find that most of Singapore is actually more forward and advanced as compared to Australia – the only thing Australia trumps Singapore is:
– Fair Go. Giving fair and equal opportunities to all.
While I do not condone Australia’s non-functioning justice system (Murderer gets off scott-free, Pedo rapes toddler and barely a slap on the wrist, etc) I respect that they have a culture of giving people second chances.
Example, Singapore: Bankrupt means “go commit suicide” because you can’t even open a bank account without approval from authorities.
Australia: Every 5 years your credit rating is wiped clean.
Of course there are plenty who take advantage of this but its the price to pay for this concept.
– Standard of living: Things can be expensive, but in comparison to pay it is affordable.
– Pension: Though considered a mere pittance in Australia, the fact that the elderly are given due respect for their contribution to the country is upheld.
Burma doesn’t even have a half proper functioning Government, forget infrastructure.
Everything is stuck in limbo, there is rife corruption in every level (whereas in Singapore I would tag it as similar to America. Rife in political, MNCs and elite circles.) of Governance down to having to pay a bribe to connect your electricity and lower still to your traffic warden.
Its very naive of you to relegate Singapore’s political position to that level. Singapore may have a problematic political system but it doesn’t mean it is:
1. Non functioning (just look at Singapore’s economy, constant development, etc)
2. Failed Government (You forget its the Singaporeans who voted for that Government. No matter how many ‘walkovers’ they stage if the majority of Singaporeans decide they do not want PAP they will vote it out eventually.)
At least if you had mentioned Malaysia it would have been comparable.
Many Singaporeans move to Australia simply because they get higher pay doing less, costs less to raise a family, everything is cheaper dollar for dollar in Australia versus in Singapore. Oh and of course bragging right – “I living OVERSEA OKAY.”
Hence they are economic migrants.
Economic migrants exist EVERYWHERE and is part and parcel of our globalised world.
Comparing Singapore to Australia is like comparing Burma to Singapore. In an imaginary chain of democratic order Burma must be at the bottom while Singapore is in the middle and Australia is right at the top. Just look at the immigration pattern of educated among the three.
Hordes of educated Burmese moved to Singapore while hundreds of thousands of learned Singaporeans migrate to Australia. Even though Australians look down on both as almost-primitive Asiatics who do not have the guts to fight for democracy in their own countries, many Aussies are willing to move there to work as experts taking advantage of higher pay and better conditions as expatriates compared to the oppressed locals.
It is a paradox that those most in need of research attention are often those least able to understand it. A phalanx of research and comments has their objectives. Unless those objectives are being properly understood, one simply plays into the hands of those research objectives that would harm not only mainland Southeast Asia but Australia national security as well. The monotony of the na├пve type of reviews drove me crazy. This is not nuances, indeed, it’s very serious.
First of all, we need to understand why Keijiro Otsuka chose Suphan Buri province and Khon Kaen province among other 76 provinces as the research sites. Secondly, why Keijiro Otsuka chose 1987 and 2004 as the year for the comparison.
Suphan Buri and Khon Kaen are the stronghold of the Chart Thai Party. The founders of this party was Phin Choonhavan’s son and son-in-law. Phin staged the 1947 coup that led Pridi Banomyong into exile. Phin’s another son-in-law Pao Sriyanond, the then Police Chief had murdered all Pridi’s right hand men. One must understand the history of the Allies versus the Axis to understand Keijiro Otsuka’s research objective.
Keijiro Otsuka chose 1987 and 2004 because Phin’s son Chatchai Choonhavan became Prime Minister in 1988 and Phin’s grand-son Kraisak joined politics in 2004. Kraisak is now Deputy Prime Minister and Deputy Secretary General of the Democrat Party.
The increased non-farm income and education “human capital” in these two provinces are thus correlated with Chart Thai political base and global positioning system.
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Let the games begin
awesome description with the pictures.
i am very happy to see this.
thank you.
Revolution of rising expectations in Isan
Terry: wasn’t that the point. The irony of a 40 year-old document that still has some resonance?
I am not aware of any thorough studies of Isan Khieow projects as a group (any else know?). There are some limited studies of “sufficiency economy” ideas conceived broadly. Rigg has done a bit (if my memory serves me correctly).
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Chris, tell us, what is the difference between theory and rumour in your post. Why is it that you can discount another’s rumour with one of your own? And what is the difference between a book published by Yale University Press and regular commentary in the Nation when done by academic commentators?
Thongchai on Thailand in transition
Landon’s book is nowadays generally regarded as period piece by a missionary rather than a useful account.
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
Title: I found the explanation on Khun Somsaks blog:
http://somsakwork.blogspot.com/2008/06/blog-post.html
“To confuse truth with lies or good with evil is to mistake the Devil’s lethal discus for the Buddha’s lotus.”
Siamese saying
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
I met david Everett in about 1982 1983 before he went to help the K.N.L.A. I met him with a cameraman friend of mine Derek Hobbs who also went and did a small documentary of David on the front line…This year I found myself also in the Karen state of Burma in a different location to that of David and yet thay all still remember the brave Australian soldier who came to fight for freedom and democracy in a land that has one of the worlds worst human rights abuse records…David should get the highest military medal of Australia for his unselfish and brave deeds…I was there at the 7th Brigade to make a documentery on the worlds longest war, and the worlds most undocumented war…60 years…sample on youtube “Last Line of Defence KNLA”….also youtube “Song for Burma KNLA”…love to know what you think David…who knows? maybe we can get him to say a few words on the show…Im Rod Power http://www.rodpower.net
Thongchai on Thailand in transition
All right, got it: The king has been made to look like a superhuman, and thus the CP will have a steep mountain to climb, etc…
Thai transitions
[…] is the text of the presentation by Thongchai Winichakul at the Thailand in Transition workshop held on 8 December […]
Let the games begin
Simon,
Thanks for continuing updates on this event. The following anthropological study of the Winter Olympic Games in Norway may be of interest for comparative purposes: http://www.berghahnbooks.com/title.php?rowtag=KlausenOlympic
Commentary on “Thailand in transition”
Doctor J – one can practice human rights abuse in Thailand as much as one wishes, as long as no Thai who does wishes to set foot on Western soil.
Swiss minarets reaction is just the beginning. The West’s New Right will certainly target Thais.
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
David – I agree with mosts points you’ve made.
I did say the Lao government would be extremely reluctant to intervene and for those reasons you cited.
But the worse case scenario is one where the total situation has spun out of control, which may only happen if the more extreme elements bring on a disaster in Bangkok. Lao troops would find it hard not to intervene if all out civil war exploded, and their Isaarn family were in dire danger.
This would not necessarily be “suicidal” intervention : in the only modern battle they’ve ever fought, Lao troops defeated Thai. And Lao is protected ultimately by Vietnam and China. Indeed the topic in this forum is a bit strange in that there’s no mention of China. But certainly in my Lao trips Lao people have smiled with joy at the thought of China as their ultimate guarrantor.
This worse case bears consideration for two reasons :
1) the heated rhetoric of more extreme elements in Bangkok.
2) because of what has happened in Thailand’s far south.
When I travelled there nearly two decades ago, there was barely a hint of separatist violence. A truly lovely area, now tragic.
Here’s hoping the rest of Thailand, not least Lanna and Isaarn remain lovely without tragedy.
Sonthi on manners and democracy
I’m glad it is General Sonthi and not Mr. Sondhi of the PAD, making this statement. Khun Sondhi is of course, up on a lese mageste charge, for repeating Da Torpedo’s offensive remarks.
Very ironical given PAD’s endlessly shrieking their loyalty to the monarchy. And of course, Khun Sondhi is out on bail, and does not have to suffer the appalling jail conditions of just an ordinary person like Harry Nicolaides or Da Torpedo.
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
David Brown and Name Witheld By Request : interesting theories,
but yet again Thailand’s notorious, huge rumour-mill seems in over-drive, in the Paul Handley style. Social scientists try sticking to the facts, in the style of Chris Baker and Professor Pasuk. Journalists have the luxury of reporting the fact of a rumour !!! But any sane person would quickly go mad believing every Thai rumour.
Personally I doubt Prem would never be so disloyal, or have anything like the necessary support, to stand against Her Majesty The Queen should she decide to act in a Regent role.
And anyone who develops Klong Toey deserves a medal if it
improves the lot of the poor people who live there.
“Lee Kuan Yew – ANU is not for you!”
Democracy simply means that the system allows the populace to govern themselves not a group of elites like the Brutal Army in Burma or a single family like LKY’s in Singapore.
Every Singaporean carries ID card and on it the race is clearly shown. The widely believed reason is that LKY wants to maintain the race ratio of roughly 70/20/10 percent of Chinese/Malay Muslims/Indian and Others respectively in Singapore so that his family and his descendants will always be in power. Smart dictator LKY really is, isn’t he?
Even the thousands of desperate Burmese engineers and doctors lucky to be given PR status recently in Singapore are forced to declare their real racial ancestry so that they can be properly classified as either dominant Chinese race or dominated Other Races including the Burmese.
It appears that LKY really wants to maintain that not-so -secret Race Ratio!
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Without entering into any rights or wrongs, reds or yellows here, could this not be viewed as simply another chess move?
It is reasonably common gossip in Bangkok that Thaksin entered into business deals with the CP, particularly to develop the Klong Toey area. This was viewed by some as getting the CP in the pocket early as a balance against the increasingly annoying rise of the Privy Council. The gossip goes further to suggest that this alarmed the status quo greatly, who, seeing HM in poor health, knew that Thaksin would back the CP in any succession. This supposedly prompted Thaksin’s ouster.
I do not for a moment suggest any of this is true, but it could conceivably explain a few things, such as what we are reading in the Parry reporting.
Revolution of rising expectations in Isan
Perhaps interesting historically or as a source for baseline data, but the report was written 40 years ago at the height of America’s involvement in Vietnam. At that time the domino theory was taking hold and the US were a bit paranoid about showing positive “development” results, while USOM had really cranked up the propaganda machine. I simply suggest the report be viewed in this light.
Suzie Wong’s comments on “Off-farm income” suggest that any such reports should be viewed in the light of the prevailing politics of the time, both regional and national.
What would be highly interesting progression from this is a review of the Isan Keo program and its affects on attitude, plus a more current study on the success of Sufficiency Economy + attitudes.
No good news for Burmese journalists
It may be of interest to readers that the University of Queensland will be hosting the World Press Freedom Day Conference in May 2010.
Further details may be found at:
http://www.uq.edu.au/wpfday2010
“Lee Kuan Yew – ANU is not for you!”
Well, hundreds of Singaporeans move to Australia not because they are learnt but:
1. Not enough money to go U.S.
2. Failed the education system because its one 1-way system with no room for ‘fault’, ‘difference’ or ‘dissent’. (like myself.)
You’ll be surprised to know that the quality of education in Singapore is actually superior to the one in Australia in most cases.
Its just that in Australia entrance requirements are easier and that most universities depend highly upon the full international fees that (predominantly) Asian students, the odd Caucasian from Europe and even odder still Latino, hence not only makes things very easy for international students, but pander to them.
As for Aussies not being able to differentiate between Burma and Singapore – that is their failure. Stark ignorance of their position within the region does not contribute to their status as a ‘developed country’ nor contribute to your point of ‘learned people’ coming here or this land consisting of learned people.
Not understanding your neighbouring countries when you are the most vulnerable (only ‘white’ country in an isolated, vulnerable position in Asia) only serves to create resentment, ill-will and hostility.
Not to mention some of Australia’s biggest trading partners are Asian, and Australia depends very greatly upon Asian foreign investment currently to stabilise its economy in such turbulent times.
I find that most of Singapore is actually more forward and advanced as compared to Australia – the only thing Australia trumps Singapore is:
– Fair Go. Giving fair and equal opportunities to all.
While I do not condone Australia’s non-functioning justice system (Murderer gets off scott-free, Pedo rapes toddler and barely a slap on the wrist, etc) I respect that they have a culture of giving people second chances.
Example, Singapore: Bankrupt means “go commit suicide” because you can’t even open a bank account without approval from authorities.
Australia: Every 5 years your credit rating is wiped clean.
Of course there are plenty who take advantage of this but its the price to pay for this concept.
– Standard of living: Things can be expensive, but in comparison to pay it is affordable.
– Pension: Though considered a mere pittance in Australia, the fact that the elderly are given due respect for their contribution to the country is upheld.
Burma doesn’t even have a half proper functioning Government, forget infrastructure.
Everything is stuck in limbo, there is rife corruption in every level (whereas in Singapore I would tag it as similar to America. Rife in political, MNCs and elite circles.) of Governance down to having to pay a bribe to connect your electricity and lower still to your traffic warden.
Its very naive of you to relegate Singapore’s political position to that level. Singapore may have a problematic political system but it doesn’t mean it is:
1. Non functioning (just look at Singapore’s economy, constant development, etc)
2. Failed Government (You forget its the Singaporeans who voted for that Government. No matter how many ‘walkovers’ they stage if the majority of Singaporeans decide they do not want PAP they will vote it out eventually.)
At least if you had mentioned Malaysia it would have been comparable.
Many Singaporeans move to Australia simply because they get higher pay doing less, costs less to raise a family, everything is cheaper dollar for dollar in Australia versus in Singapore. Oh and of course bragging right – “I living OVERSEA OKAY.”
Hence they are economic migrants.
Economic migrants exist EVERYWHERE and is part and parcel of our globalised world.
“Lee Kuan Yew – ANU is not for you!”
Comparing Singapore to Australia is like comparing Burma to Singapore. In an imaginary chain of democratic order Burma must be at the bottom while Singapore is in the middle and Australia is right at the top. Just look at the immigration pattern of educated among the three.
Hordes of educated Burmese moved to Singapore while hundreds of thousands of learned Singaporeans migrate to Australia. Even though Australians look down on both as almost-primitive Asiatics who do not have the guts to fight for democracy in their own countries, many Aussies are willing to move there to work as experts taking advantage of higher pay and better conditions as expatriates compared to the oppressed locals.
Off-farm income and education in rural Thailand
It is a paradox that those most in need of research attention are often those least able to understand it. A phalanx of research and comments has their objectives. Unless those objectives are being properly understood, one simply plays into the hands of those research objectives that would harm not only mainland Southeast Asia but Australia national security as well. The monotony of the na├пve type of reviews drove me crazy. This is not nuances, indeed, it’s very serious.
First of all, we need to understand why Keijiro Otsuka chose Suphan Buri province and Khon Kaen province among other 76 provinces as the research sites. Secondly, why Keijiro Otsuka chose 1987 and 2004 as the year for the comparison.
Suphan Buri and Khon Kaen are the stronghold of the Chart Thai Party. The founders of this party was Phin Choonhavan’s son and son-in-law. Phin staged the 1947 coup that led Pridi Banomyong into exile. Phin’s another son-in-law Pao Sriyanond, the then Police Chief had murdered all Pridi’s right hand men. One must understand the history of the Allies versus the Axis to understand Keijiro Otsuka’s research objective.
Keijiro Otsuka chose 1987 and 2004 because Phin’s son Chatchai Choonhavan became Prime Minister in 1988 and Phin’s grand-son Kraisak joined politics in 2004. Kraisak is now Deputy Prime Minister and Deputy Secretary General of the Democrat Party.
The increased non-farm income and education “human capital” in these two provinces are thus correlated with Chart Thai political base and global positioning system.