Chris: you told me you were lazy on this thread – http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2009/08/18/17-august-2009-petition-day/, where you said: “I do not have the time, money, energy, or inclination to comment on this website, as often as you.” More there than “lazy” alone, admittedly, but then again you make assumptions as well about my inclinations….
But let’s be serious, even if you are on the wrong thread here. The prince and charity flights. Yes, you are right. As far as I am aware he did one when his dad’s adviser was prime minster appointed by the military.
Any Isaan-China axis against the elites has the proverbial snowball in Hell chance of occurring. We should not forget China has its own elite who support Thailand’s elite.
The idea that northeasterners in this region that I live in would actually rebel on the one hand and that the central government would allow this or be so incompetent to prevent it is also incredulous. The overall subject of elites vs. northeasterners, however, is ripe for discussion. some of the machinations that went into solidifying the northeast’s current ties with the central authorities is evident in histories and accounts of the final Lao war, preparations and aftermath, against Thailand during 1826-27.
Not quite sure how empowered the Isaan people were before or after Thaksin, however. Well before him they were generally cultivated to help win elections, and have been a major element in national elections, major economic policy decisions and more.
Speaking to Laotians who might fancy China stepping in is not the way to purview political developments as they might possibly unfold. Sort of like t he payanak fable.
Ralph – you recently wrote “I know you are lazy Chris, but how do you know he (the Crown Prince) is doing his best?”
Well Ralph – how do you know I am “lazy” ? Have we met ?
Not that I know of.
The Crown Prince is flying airplanes for charity – which is more than you have done Ralph, I’ll bet.
Handley’s book is a valuable contribution to Thai studies, and should n’t be banned. Banning books is too much like Hitler’s burning them.
But Handley’s account at times descends into America’s long tradition of muck-raking journalism. So it is not suprising a culture such as Thailand’s, has banned this.
That is a pity because Handley’s book has many weak points :
not least being reliance on gossip and rumour. At times it has some appalling historical inaccuracies – eg. Handley write that British punk-rock band burst on the scene with “God Save The Queen”. Actually, it was their previous hit “Anarchy In The UK”.
But worst of all is Handley’s malignant, jaundiced view of His Majesty and General Prem. Nowhere does Handley acknowledge probably Bumiphol’s greatest achievement – i.e. the raising of Thailand from being one of the world’s poorest countries when Bumiphol came to the throne, to it now being one of South-East Asia’s richest. Ditto his comments on Prem’s premiership.
It is worthwhile finding here some mention of the Isaan / Bangkok
divide.
There’s far too little mention of this both in Thai and international media. But it’s at the heart of Thailand’s current impasse.
Two factors make this divide now fundamentally different from what it has been before :
1) Thaksin’s empowerment of Lao-speaking Isaan.
2) The fact that for the first time in more than 300 years there is now a viable Lao state on the 0ther side of the Mekong.
While Thailand’s elite, – almost exclusively non-Lao Isaan – might like to patronisingly think of Laos as Thailand’s “little brother”, Lao I’ve spoken to look to China as their big brother protector – possibly against Thailand. In the event of a breakaway anti-Bangkok uprising in Lao-majority Isaan, it would be difficult for La0s and China not to become involved.
So what if His Royal Highness has been married three times ??
There’s nothing wrong with that !
Ronald Reagan was married twice – Zsa Zsa Gabor five times !!
Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton married and divorced – each other ! – two times.
Marriage and re-marriage is a norm in the modern world – or have n’t you posters here noticed !!
And it is absolutely outrageous for ANYONE to have their private marriage activities, of any sort, publicly broadcast. I bet nobody posting here would like such treatment. Western papparazzi go too far – just ask Princess Dianna’s ghost !!
Give His Royal Highness a break : he’s doing his best – eg. flying airplanes for charity, something I can not do – and I bet most, if not everyone posting here, can not do. I greatly respect him for this.
Thought I would try my own hand, with the benefit of seeing what others have wrought, to smoothen the English translations of Jakrabhop’s five elements of the ‘Deep State,’ of state-within-a-state. I also cheated a bit with two online translation sources, comparing and trying to come up with a native English version that felt like it reads the way it was written in Thai.
1. Both civilian and military senior officials constantly thriving under the patronage system of the old power cliques, who trade power back and forth like prize possessions and sometimes compete with one another.
2. Mechanisms to completely control the Thai government, such as ISOC, the Special Branch, the Foreign Ministry, Thai Airways, and PTT (Public Company Ltd.).
3. Groups acquiring revenue both from old and new asset sources, and the developing of networks to pipeline capital – whether from old or new wealth – for centralized use.
4. Academics with specialized skills, especially to control the government using the law, such as producing a constitution, hidden strings to retain power and privileges under law that is subordinate (to them).
5. Agreements with great foreign powers, especially America, in safeguarding joint privileges and not overlapping one another.
Most of us do belong either to the ASSK fan club or to the junta’s current and future beneficiaries club. Personally I feel she is still someone who can and should head the new Burma regardless of my own misgivings. U Nu’s lust for power was well known but an interim government was what the masses headed by student activists were calling for. He of course was the elected PM that the military had overthrown, and politics after all involves smart compromises and temporary alliances, but crucially at that moment in history a united opposition in a bid to topple the dictatorship.
People have also said she had no choice but to deny the junta’s allegations that she was trying to split the army, and to refuse U Nu’s offer, as it would tantamount to sedition and setting up a parallel government provoking a civil war. Yes, but together they could certainly have pulled a Cori Aquino. Clearly there’s always a price to pay in this scenario but the sacrifice of so many ordinary Burmese out in the streets of Rangoon and other cities all over the country might not have been in vain. Instead of merely riding on the crest of the tremendous wave of the popular uprising, it could have been harnessed to hammer and crash through the barriers once and for all by winning over part of the army to the people’s side, to rally to a unified opposition and authority. We could still do it round the next bend, come the fire next time.
It’s a touchy issue at the very least, of course. Time and time again I have spoken and written about the need for Thais to take these issues, including LM, to court but no one bothers because they are too afraid and don’t want to be chided by their fellow Thais as being un-Thai. This is the bottleneck – fear, intimidation, ignorance, mass hypnosis.
It is quite astonishing how the Kingdom of Thailand has succeded to convince the world of its democratic credendials while in fact it had been and it continues to be a totalitarian state with all its atributes (as mentioned by previous posters). Surely those must be Thai nationals, above all, who have to dismantle this far and wide network of lies and misinformation for their own benefit.
There is a serious question of real danger to John Doe from the military/amalgam of antagonistic parties that constitute Thailand’s ‘deep state’ similar to that discussed in Turkey. As John Doe stated in the past, if he hadn’t been careful he would have been killed.
That open public statement from Doe has been discussed almost ad infinitum in Thailand to little avail because the state within a state, or the deep state, is without a sense of humor or tolerance. So it reinstates dangerous passages in the country’s constitution that legislate divinity and legitimate oppression, repression and suppression. All in the name of that guy John Doe that Robin Hood was trying to protect back then.
I thought the world was made up of two camps. One camp that absolutely abhors ASSK and the other camp that absolutely loves and adores her and thinks she can do no wrong. I thought my little ‘stir’ against her may have solicited some bashing.
I thought with the case of U Nu the shoe was on the other foot. What U Nu said at that time when it seems that the army had conceded defeat was that: “This is legally my seat, I won it lawfully and therefore I want it back”. Personally, I blame U Nu, as far as I could remember there was no room for consensus and I don’t think she had a choice.
The other chance that ASSK had or worked towards was getting closer to the junta and perhaps in Khin Nyunt there was a glimmer of optimism and then the junta became very uncomfortable and uneasy.
It seems the world is doing a ‘wait and see’ stance over Obama’s change of policy. There may be a lot of talk going on behind the scenes but no public comment so far.
Can state within the state be considered as totalitarian form of governance? According to its definition, a model to classify states as totalitarian, a state had to exhibit six features:
– an all encompassing ideology which in the Thai case is “nation, religion, the monarchy”;
– led by one man which in this case Phumipon;
– a system of terror of which Da Torpedo was sentenced for 18 years in prison on lese majeste charge, Sonthi Limthongkul was rained with bullets, Jakrapob Penkair and Ji Ungpakorn had to fled the country;
– a near-monopoly on all means of mass communication which we all about the censorship;
– a near-monopoly of instruments of force of which Phumipon is the head of the armed forces;
– and a centrally controlled economy, in the Thai case the economy was controlled by the network monarchy patron-client system.
So…uhmm, before asbestos became available in Thailand houses didn’t have roofs?
Perhaps dear little Siam Cement -who I’m sure have always had our best interests at heart- might have taken the trouble to warn us about the risks asbestos poses. We could then have made am informed decision as to whether we want an asbestos roof or not (by the way, how many of you have houses decorated with Shera?).
I wonder why it never occurred to Siam Cement to do so? (not a hard question to answer really, is it).
Come on Siam Cement, over to you! What do you have to say on all this? Your silence is deafening.
The Thai authorities are well aware of the the dangers but you will still not see asbestos sheet labeled with a health warning. Asbestos is a highly profitably product for some very important and powerful Thais, but only because the dangers involved in its use are not conveyed to the Thai populace.
If those dangers were widely known, safety precautions would be required on building sites; that costs money and profitability falls. Also, less home owners would purchase the material.
Interesting to see that Siam Cement, the jewel of the Crown Property Bureau, has excised any reference to asbestos from its website. It seems they are running scared of future lawsuits.
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King Bhumibol expresses his worries
Chris: you told me you were lazy on this thread – http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2009/08/18/17-august-2009-petition-day/, where you said: “I do not have the time, money, energy, or inclination to comment on this website, as often as you.” More there than “lazy” alone, admittedly, but then again you make assumptions as well about my inclinations….
But let’s be serious, even if you are on the wrong thread here. The prince and charity flights. Yes, you are right. As far as I am aware he did one when his dad’s adviser was prime minster appointed by the military.
He did it in a 737 that seem exclusively for his use. Maybe “charity” works more in his favour?
http://skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4&page=2&SkyID=0
Another taboo broken
You are funny, Chris Beale, have you been walking when writing this? Thank you, indeed, real stand-up comedy!
Lost for words
Any Isaan-China axis against the elites has the proverbial snowball in Hell chance of occurring. We should not forget China has its own elite who support Thailand’s elite.
The idea that northeasterners in this region that I live in would actually rebel on the one hand and that the central government would allow this or be so incompetent to prevent it is also incredulous. The overall subject of elites vs. northeasterners, however, is ripe for discussion. some of the machinations that went into solidifying the northeast’s current ties with the central authorities is evident in histories and accounts of the final Lao war, preparations and aftermath, against Thailand during 1826-27.
Not quite sure how empowered the Isaan people were before or after Thaksin, however. Well before him they were generally cultivated to help win elections, and have been a major element in national elections, major economic policy decisions and more.
Speaking to Laotians who might fancy China stepping in is not the way to purview political developments as they might possibly unfold. Sort of like t he payanak fable.
King Bhumibol expresses his worries
Ralph – you recently wrote “I know you are lazy Chris, but how do you know he (the Crown Prince) is doing his best?”
Well Ralph – how do you know I am “lazy” ? Have we met ?
Not that I know of.
The Crown Prince is flying airplanes for charity – which is more than you have done Ralph, I’ll bet.
Interview with Paul Handley
Handley’s book is a valuable contribution to Thai studies, and should n’t be banned. Banning books is too much like Hitler’s burning them.
But Handley’s account at times descends into America’s long tradition of muck-raking journalism. So it is not suprising a culture such as Thailand’s, has banned this.
That is a pity because Handley’s book has many weak points :
not least being reliance on gossip and rumour. At times it has some appalling historical inaccuracies – eg. Handley write that British punk-rock band burst on the scene with “God Save The Queen”. Actually, it was their previous hit “Anarchy In The UK”.
But worst of all is Handley’s malignant, jaundiced view of His Majesty and General Prem. Nowhere does Handley acknowledge probably Bumiphol’s greatest achievement – i.e. the raising of Thailand from being one of the world’s poorest countries when Bumiphol came to the throne, to it now being one of South-East Asia’s richest. Ditto his comments on Prem’s premiership.
Lost for words
It is worthwhile finding here some mention of the Isaan / Bangkok
divide.
There’s far too little mention of this both in Thai and international media. But it’s at the heart of Thailand’s current impasse.
Two factors make this divide now fundamentally different from what it has been before :
1) Thaksin’s empowerment of Lao-speaking Isaan.
2) The fact that for the first time in more than 300 years there is now a viable Lao state on the 0ther side of the Mekong.
While Thailand’s elite, – almost exclusively non-Lao Isaan – might like to patronisingly think of Laos as Thailand’s “little brother”, Lao I’ve spoken to look to China as their big brother protector – possibly against Thailand. In the event of a breakaway anti-Bangkok uprising in Lao-majority Isaan, it would be difficult for La0s and China not to become involved.
Another taboo broken
So what if His Royal Highness has been married three times ??
There’s nothing wrong with that !
Ronald Reagan was married twice – Zsa Zsa Gabor five times !!
Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton married and divorced – each other ! – two times.
Marriage and re-marriage is a norm in the modern world – or have n’t you posters here noticed !!
And it is absolutely outrageous for ANYONE to have their private marriage activities, of any sort, publicly broadcast. I bet nobody posting here would like such treatment. Western papparazzi go too far – just ask Princess Dianna’s ghost !!
Give His Royal Highness a break : he’s doing his best – eg. flying airplanes for charity, something I can not do – and I bet most, if not everyone posting here, can not do. I greatly respect him for this.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Thought I would try my own hand, with the benefit of seeing what others have wrought, to smoothen the English translations of Jakrabhop’s five elements of the ‘Deep State,’ of state-within-a-state. I also cheated a bit with two online translation sources, comparing and trying to come up with a native English version that felt like it reads the way it was written in Thai.
1. Both civilian and military senior officials constantly thriving under the patronage system of the old power cliques, who trade power back and forth like prize possessions and sometimes compete with one another.
2. Mechanisms to completely control the Thai government, such as ISOC, the Special Branch, the Foreign Ministry, Thai Airways, and PTT (Public Company Ltd.).
3. Groups acquiring revenue both from old and new asset sources, and the developing of networks to pipeline capital – whether from old or new wealth – for centralized use.
4. Academics with specialized skills, especially to control the government using the law, such as producing a constitution, hidden strings to retain power and privileges under law that is subordinate (to them).
5. Agreements with great foreign powers, especially America, in safeguarding joint privileges and not overlapping one another.
A Sino-Burmese border dance
Bamar,
Most of us do belong either to the ASSK fan club or to the junta’s current and future beneficiaries club. Personally I feel she is still someone who can and should head the new Burma regardless of my own misgivings. U Nu’s lust for power was well known but an interim government was what the masses headed by student activists were calling for. He of course was the elected PM that the military had overthrown, and politics after all involves smart compromises and temporary alliances, but crucially at that moment in history a united opposition in a bid to topple the dictatorship.
People have also said she had no choice but to deny the junta’s allegations that she was trying to split the army, and to refuse U Nu’s offer, as it would tantamount to sedition and setting up a parallel government provoking a civil war. Yes, but together they could certainly have pulled a Cori Aquino. Clearly there’s always a price to pay in this scenario but the sacrifice of so many ordinary Burmese out in the streets of Rangoon and other cities all over the country might not have been in vain. Instead of merely riding on the crest of the tremendous wave of the popular uprising, it could have been harnessed to hammer and crash through the barriers once and for all by winning over part of the army to the people’s side, to rally to a unified opposition and authority. We could still do it round the next bend, come the fire next time.
Panrit Daoruang free
Yes, dear Gor, welcome back to …civilisation? Be happy (Just be careful about the colour of your shirts!).
Finger pointing and paper pushing no answer to Malaysia’s corruption crisis
“to retrospectively approve an increase in the cost of the PKFZ project from RM10.88 billion to RM4.6 billion”
…. a typo or miscalculation in there somwhere?
Thailand’s military: perpetually political, forever factionalized, again ascendant
By the way, are there any research reports on the grey eminence of Thai policy-making, the Council of State?
Panrit Daoruang free
thank you very much for the kind words. I’m trying to adjust myself to life on the outside again. I hope to be blogging again soon.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
It’s a touchy issue at the very least, of course. Time and time again I have spoken and written about the need for Thais to take these issues, including LM, to court but no one bothers because they are too afraid and don’t want to be chided by their fellow Thais as being un-Thai. This is the bottleneck – fear, intimidation, ignorance, mass hypnosis.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
It is quite astonishing how the Kingdom of Thailand has succeded to convince the world of its democratic credendials while in fact it had been and it continues to be a totalitarian state with all its atributes (as mentioned by previous posters). Surely those must be Thai nationals, above all, who have to dismantle this far and wide network of lies and misinformation for their own benefit.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
There is a serious question of real danger to John Doe from the military/amalgam of antagonistic parties that constitute Thailand’s ‘deep state’ similar to that discussed in Turkey. As John Doe stated in the past, if he hadn’t been careful he would have been killed.
That open public statement from Doe has been discussed almost ad infinitum in Thailand to little avail because the state within a state, or the deep state, is without a sense of humor or tolerance. So it reinstates dangerous passages in the country’s constitution that legislate divinity and legitimate oppression, repression and suppression. All in the name of that guy John Doe that Robin Hood was trying to protect back then.
A Sino-Burmese border dance
Moe Aung,
I thought the world was made up of two camps. One camp that absolutely abhors ASSK and the other camp that absolutely loves and adores her and thinks she can do no wrong. I thought my little ‘stir’ against her may have solicited some bashing.
I thought with the case of U Nu the shoe was on the other foot. What U Nu said at that time when it seems that the army had conceded defeat was that: “This is legally my seat, I won it lawfully and therefore I want it back”. Personally, I blame U Nu, as far as I could remember there was no room for consensus and I don’t think she had a choice.
The other chance that ASSK had or worked towards was getting closer to the junta and perhaps in Khin Nyunt there was a glimmer of optimism and then the junta became very uncomfortable and uneasy.
It seems the world is doing a ‘wait and see’ stance over Obama’s change of policy. There may be a lot of talk going on behind the scenes but no public comment so far.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Can state within the state be considered as totalitarian form of governance? According to its definition, a model to classify states as totalitarian, a state had to exhibit six features:
– an all encompassing ideology which in the Thai case is “nation, religion, the monarchy”;
– led by one man which in this case Phumipon;
– a system of terror of which Da Torpedo was sentenced for 18 years in prison on lese majeste charge, Sonthi Limthongkul was rained with bullets, Jakrapob Penkair and Ji Ungpakorn had to fled the country;
– a near-monopoly on all means of mass communication which we all about the censorship;
– a near-monopoly of instruments of force of which Phumipon is the head of the armed forces;
– and a centrally controlled economy, in the Thai case the economy was controlled by the network monarchy patron-client system.
Asbestos in Thailand
Regarding Jonfernquest’s post:
So…uhmm, before asbestos became available in Thailand houses didn’t have roofs?
Perhaps dear little Siam Cement -who I’m sure have always had our best interests at heart- might have taken the trouble to warn us about the risks asbestos poses. We could then have made am informed decision as to whether we want an asbestos roof or not (by the way, how many of you have houses decorated with Shera?).
I wonder why it never occurred to Siam Cement to do so? (not a hard question to answer really, is it).
Come on Siam Cement, over to you! What do you have to say on all this? Your silence is deafening.
Asbestos in Thailand
The Thai authorities are well aware of the the dangers but you will still not see asbestos sheet labeled with a health warning. Asbestos is a highly profitably product for some very important and powerful Thais, but only because the dangers involved in its use are not conveyed to the Thai populace.
If those dangers were widely known, safety precautions would be required on building sites; that costs money and profitability falls. Also, less home owners would purchase the material.
Interesting to see that Siam Cement, the jewel of the Crown Property Bureau, has excised any reference to asbestos from its website. It seems they are running scared of future lawsuits.