Nick, why would the red-shirt’s lawyers keep the evidence to themselves?
So far, after all the claims by red-shirt supporters at the time, we still only know of two locals killed, possibly by red-shirts, and two possible red-shirts killed, possibly by government forces.
Those that were claiming a massacre just made themselves look rather silly. Governments lie? Of course they do. Were real bullets being fired? Most likely. Were troops told to fire into the crowds? Unlikely as we would expect a lot more dead and wounded in that case and recent history shows that is hard to hide, even if bodies are loaded into helicopters and never seen again.
Do the red-shirts/opposition/Thaksin lie? Would be interesting to know who made and who distributed the doctored Abhisit recording wouldn’t it?
Actually, i did ask one of the lawyers. He said that they have evidence which they are yet keeping to themselves.
If there is evidence coming forward or not, we will see. One thing though has been made clear: The government has clearly lied when at the time stating that no real bullets were used against protesters (for anyone who doubted my own experience at Din Daeng).
And when looking at the injured – if indeed there are no dead, it was not for lack of trying. One does not shoot at people without at least accepting that fatalities may occur.
In normal crowd dispersal tactics tear gas (the Chinese canisters have been withdrawn after the sad incidents last October and replaced) and rubber bullets are used in the most extreme case (and the equipment is available in Thailand). And the latter are as effective, yet not as lethal as real bullets.
I can only state what i have stated at the time – i have strong suspicions that there were some dead, but i have so far no proof. It would be highly unlikely if people did not die, and looking at the injuries presented here, my suspicions are only stronger.
The government strategy worked well. When the Red Shirts were protesting at Pattaya they dressed up military personnel in blue shirts and attacked the peaceful protesters with iron bars, sticks and stones, and slingshot. this caused the expected riot. What happened later at the ASEAN meeting was the result of this attack. Now the government had a good riot going they called a state of emergency and brought out the army and cracked down on the protesters, which was their intention from the beginning.
I would never shrink from criticizing Abhisit, the military or (within the law) any other influential figure for any failure to observe people’s fundamental human rights. Please see my comment below this recent article in the Bangkok Post – http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/22589/utter-despair-in-detention.
Ummm, the Rohingya? Presiding over a regime where people are prosecuted and jailed solely because of statements or their beliefs? These are violations of fundamental human rights too. I don’t think we should downplay these either.
The drug war was inexcusable. Thaksin must accept responsibility, but Thaksin alone wasn’t responsible, it went much higher up than that. Including those who now support the current gov’t (sorry I can’t get too much more specific, but that’s the nature of the beast in Thailand still with touchy matters).
Mungo says: “All those other guys were murderers too” is not a justification for pledging ones allegiance to a political movement which is dominated by a particularly vicious human rights criminal (whether many of the grievances of it’s followers are justified or not).
Did I do that? By the way, Thaksin is not yet convicted of any human rights abuse. And that is, again, my point. Not to absolve Thaksin of what are his alleged abuses, but to contextualize them and to understand why it is that the Thaksin foes currently in government and its agencies have not gone after him on human rights abuses. They are compromised, and they don’t want to blow their covers as human rights abusers. Remember when the military junta got a group to look at the war on drugs murders and included the most vociferous critic on this? Kraisak Choonhavan was beside himself with justified anger, but the investigations came to nothing. You have to know why that is.
Mr. Wrigley, your spot on there it’s a case of any chance we’ve got, let’s make him a hero.
Others might call this insecurity after all other royals in other countries do not need such special protection.
I’m somewhat suspicious at how long it has taken to produce these casualties. Can their stories be backed up by hospital or doctor reports I wonder?
Even if these are genuine casualties given the circumstances it is amazing that there are so few.
It’s obvious why the police weren’t used, they can’t do anything relliably, this happened just after the Pattaya ASEAN meeting fiasco that the police were meant to protect and failed dismally at doing so.
The army were the ONLY people who could deal with the anarchy on the streets and they did a good job despite being attacked with runaway burning busses and threatened with gas tankers. Who can blame a soldier in this situation from firing to defend himself or his colleagues.
I wonder what these 2 casualties were doing when they got shot. My bet is they fully deserved it.
Where else would you see people happily riding on the APC’s with no fear of the soldiers at all. Doesn’t that say it all?
I have been searching for references to the inflential UNHCR sanctioned HRW report “Not enough graves” -(http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,COUNTRYREP,HRW,THA,412efec42,0.html) but have been unable to do so through google searches. If anyone could provide a link to previous debates about this report I would be grateful.
“Mungo: If you had read holocaust literature (not the holocaust denial literature) you would know better than to make the kind of comparisons you have. ”
The crimes of the 3rd Reich are quite obviously of an entirely different order of magnitude to those of the Thai Rak Thai regime. I was not attempting to draw a direct comparison between Thaksin and Hitler. My point was that an attempt to diminish the significance of, or to absolve the perpetrators of guilt for, serious crimes against humanity in order to further one’s political argument is abhorrent. The moral outrage expressed by David Brown #10 to the jailing of one of ‘his own’ is hypocracy of the highest order considering his desire to completely whitewash ‘a human rights abuser of the worst kind’.
“Your comment on my not absolving Thaksin of reprehensible actions suggests that you don’t get the point. I was making a point about the neglect of human rights and the violent use of the state’s repressive forces being something beyond one person and being about the ruling elites more generally and over time. Thailand’s governments and the leaders of its major repressive agencies have regularly abused human rights and killed people. Arguably, this has been the main role of the Thai military and the police are worse.”
I would agree that human rights abuse has been depressingly common in Thailand and indeed in many cultures both historically and in recent times. Please don’t get me started on the CIA! In my view rights abuse should be challenged vigorously at every opportunity regardless of ones political allegiance. “All those other guys were murderers too” is not a justification for pledging ones allegiance to a political movement which is dominated by a particularly vicious human rights criminal (whether many of the grievances of it’s followers are justified or not).
Being Thai myself, I have been asking this same question for several months now.
Perhaps, it’s true that the baby panda’s promotion is the government’s diversion campaign. To my dismay, it has succeeded to some degree. The baby panda’s popularity is evident by the occurrence of a buffalo panda, man panda on TV every now and then. I believe more variations of artificial pandas are on their way.
Does this tell us something about the current situation of Thai society? One thing I know for sure, that the Thai society can be easily manipulated by the media–a collection the powerful and prejudice corporations that concern more on how to sedate rather than educate and inform its people. The same goes with the constant feeding of fortunetelling regimen on national TV…
1. Can you cite evidence supporting your statement “For years no one pays much attention to the Amnesty International reports that document all sorts of atrocities by law enforcement and in jails in which people are severely harmed or lose their lives” ?
2. We’re not all “Southeast Asian Studies academics” here. But aside from your unwarranted slur against academics and the rest of us who care, can you deny there’s also “a stunning lack of consistency” in Amnesty’s total silence on the lese majeste cases? Are you actually saying AI is silent now because “no one” paid attention to them before? I think AI would be offended by such an accusation.
3. Are the current LM suits — Daranee, Giles Ungkaporn, Suwicha, Prachatai, etc. — more justifiable to you because they were initiated by post-Thaksin governments?
4. If “Amnesty International is trying to tell you guys to pay more attention to the real abuses that take place each year,” maybe Amnesty International would say so. Are you speaking with inside knowledge?
5. Maybe you’re right that “Thailand has fantastically wide freedoms of speech regarding the HR abuses that really count, that reached a new height during the Thaksin regime,” but (1) does that mean that 15 years in prison for lese majeste (or the longer terms under the new Computer Crimes Act that the police are so enthusiastic about) does not “really count”? and (2) what has the government done in response to the freely expressed criticisms of HR abuses “that really count”?
I would never shrink from criticizing Abhisit, the military or (within the law) any other influential figure for any failure to observe people’s fundamental human rights. Please see my comment below this recent article in the Bangkok Post – http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/22589/utter-despair-in-detention.
If you can provide an even remotely credible argument to support the view that Abhisit’s actions in office are in any way equivalent to Thaksin’s personal involvement in orchestrating, and subsequently taking great pride in, a campaign of mass murder I would be very interested to hear it.
Also, if you can find someone who wants to resurrect Field Marshal Pibun after 50+ years in the grave, absolve him of guilt for the abuse he was involved in, and campaign for his immediate return to office, I will be happy to condemn them in the very strongest terms.
And just for the record, I firmly believe that it would be of great benefit to Thailand (and the monarchy) if the country’s highest institution, and those in the immediate service of that institution, could be stringently protected from all involvement in politics.
Hang on – plenty of journalists and academics railed against Thaksin’s HR abuses Fernquest.
The only person posting here with a short memory is yourself.
Instead of endlessly trolling against any voices that dare to upset your romanticised view of regal Thailand, why don’t you actually try and do something constructive. Putting pressure on AI over LM is a very valid and worthwhile strategy.
And if you don’t see the sense of revoking a law like LM then your railing against Thaksin’s use of it rings completely and utterly hollow. Such a law should not be available to ANY Thai ruler.
As usual, jonfernquest is wrong. Persons he calls Southeast Asian Studies academics cited AI reports on Thailand, including during the Thaksin period. Some random examples from a quick Google:
McCargo and Ukrist, Thaksinization: footnote 68, p. 245.
McCargo, Tearing the Land…: several references.
Arnold and Hewison, Journal of Contemporary Asia, 2005.
Munger, NY Law School Law Review, 2007.
Pasuk and Baker, Thaksin, several references.
For years no one pays much attention to the Amnesty International reports that document all sorts of atrocities by law enforcement and in jails in which people are severely harmed or lose their lives. This trend really reached a height during the rule of police colonel Thaksin.
But when a few people can’t control their mouths and are made public examples of, then Southeast Asian Studies academics jump on a bandwagon and are suddenly interested in Amnesty International. What a stunning lack of consistency. No wonder why the general public is not very interested in what you have to say.
The general public also does not seem to be very interested in lese majeste issues in the way Southeast Asian Studies academics are, nor was Thaksin who has become there new cause celebre nor were his cronies who served as PMs earlier this year. Most of the LM suits were initiated under them.
Perhaps Amnesty International is trying to tell you guys to pay more attention to the real abuses that take place each year.
Thailand has fantastically wide freedoms of speech regarding the HR abuses that really count, that reached a new height during the Thaksin regime.
I’ll never forget when Thaksin tried to pressure an Akha voting rights activist up north by sending the police against members of her family.
Time to wake up and use your memory, flip flop academics.
“The point is not how the red-shirt or whoever-wearing-red, did burn the bus…”
O really!
The ending of this year’s Songkran disturbances will go down in history as one of the most peaceful and skilled military operations in modern history.
It is a tragedy that these two people were injured but when you compare this with similar military or police actions in other countries or with the massive unexplained deaths of Thaksin’s “war on drugs” that only two protesters were injured is actually proof that the action was successful.
PM Abhisit should be commended for his balancing act.
If we had to rely on the intellectual flip-flop of left-leaning academics there would be absolute anarchy and the economy would grind to a halt.
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Shot at Din Daeng
Nick, why would the red-shirt’s lawyers keep the evidence to themselves?
So far, after all the claims by red-shirt supporters at the time, we still only know of two locals killed, possibly by red-shirts, and two possible red-shirts killed, possibly by government forces.
Those that were claiming a massacre just made themselves look rather silly. Governments lie? Of course they do. Were real bullets being fired? Most likely. Were troops told to fire into the crowds? Unlikely as we would expect a lot more dead and wounded in that case and recent history shows that is hard to hide, even if bodies are loaded into helicopters and never seen again.
Do the red-shirts/opposition/Thaksin lie? Would be interesting to know who made and who distributed the doctored Abhisit recording wouldn’t it?
Shot at Din Daeng
“Les Abbey”:
Actually, i did ask one of the lawyers. He said that they have evidence which they are yet keeping to themselves.
If there is evidence coming forward or not, we will see. One thing though has been made clear: The government has clearly lied when at the time stating that no real bullets were used against protesters (for anyone who doubted my own experience at Din Daeng).
And when looking at the injured – if indeed there are no dead, it was not for lack of trying. One does not shoot at people without at least accepting that fatalities may occur.
In normal crowd dispersal tactics tear gas (the Chinese canisters have been withdrawn after the sad incidents last October and replaced) and rubber bullets are used in the most extreme case (and the equipment is available in Thailand). And the latter are as effective, yet not as lethal as real bullets.
I can only state what i have stated at the time – i have strong suspicions that there were some dead, but i have so far no proof. It would be highly unlikely if people did not die, and looking at the injuries presented here, my suspicions are only stronger.
Lets wait and see what else comes out.
Shot at Din Daeng
But Nick, where are all the bodies? Did anybody ask at the press conference? I won’t embarrass anyone by digging into their Songkran comments.
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
Mark Teufel of Germany’s Free Thai movement, has made the following files available for free download:
The Devil’s Discus in Thai (1974)
р╕Бр╕Зр╕Ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕Ыр╕╡р╕ир╕▓р╕Ир╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕З
http://www.schoenes-thailand.de/dokumente/buecher-dokumente/the-devils-discus-in-thai-3585-3591-3592-3633-3585-3619-3611-3637-3624-3634-3592-/download.html
Photo illustration from the English Discus (1964)
http://www.schoenes-thailand.de/dokumente/buecher-dokumente/the-devils-discus-pictures/download.html
These are averaging HUNDREDS of downloads per day! A German Discus soon to come.
Shot at Din Daeng
The government strategy worked well. When the Red Shirts were protesting at Pattaya they dressed up military personnel in blue shirts and attacked the peaceful protesters with iron bars, sticks and stones, and slingshot. this caused the expected riot. What happened later at the ASEAN meeting was the result of this attack. Now the government had a good riot going they called a state of emergency and brought out the army and cracked down on the protesters, which was their intention from the beginning.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
@Mungo (85)
I would never shrink from criticizing Abhisit, the military or (within the law) any other influential figure for any failure to observe people’s fundamental human rights. Please see my comment below this recent article in the Bangkok Post – http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/22589/utter-despair-in-detention.
Ummm, the Rohingya? Presiding over a regime where people are prosecuted and jailed solely because of statements or their beliefs? These are violations of fundamental human rights too. I don’t think we should downplay these either.
The drug war was inexcusable. Thaksin must accept responsibility, but Thaksin alone wasn’t responsible, it went much higher up than that. Including those who now support the current gov’t (sorry I can’t get too much more specific, but that’s the nature of the beast in Thailand still with touchy matters).
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Mungo says: “All those other guys were murderers too” is not a justification for pledging ones allegiance to a political movement which is dominated by a particularly vicious human rights criminal (whether many of the grievances of it’s followers are justified or not).
Did I do that? By the way, Thaksin is not yet convicted of any human rights abuse. And that is, again, my point. Not to absolve Thaksin of what are his alleged abuses, but to contextualize them and to understand why it is that the Thaksin foes currently in government and its agencies have not gone after him on human rights abuses. They are compromised, and they don’t want to blow their covers as human rights abusers. Remember when the military junta got a group to look at the war on drugs murders and included the most vociferous critic on this? Kraisak Choonhavan was beside himself with justified anger, but the investigations came to nothing. You have to know why that is.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Political Prisoners in Thailand has a link to the HRW report and a bunch of other useful stuff at: http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/commentary/general-political-background/
Thailand and lese majeste: In Thai
Mr. Wrigley, your spot on there it’s a case of any chance we’ve got, let’s make him a hero.
Others might call this insecurity after all other royals in other countries do not need such special protection.
Shot at Din Daeng
I’m somewhat suspicious at how long it has taken to produce these casualties. Can their stories be backed up by hospital or doctor reports I wonder?
Even if these are genuine casualties given the circumstances it is amazing that there are so few.
It’s obvious why the police weren’t used, they can’t do anything relliably, this happened just after the Pattaya ASEAN meeting fiasco that the police were meant to protect and failed dismally at doing so.
The army were the ONLY people who could deal with the anarchy on the streets and they did a good job despite being attacked with runaway burning busses and threatened with gas tankers. Who can blame a soldier in this situation from firing to defend himself or his colleagues.
I wonder what these 2 casualties were doing when they got shot. My bet is they fully deserved it.
Where else would you see people happily riding on the APC’s with no fear of the soldiers at all. Doesn’t that say it all?
Thailand’s royal disgrace
I have been searching for references to the inflential UNHCR sanctioned HRW report “Not enough graves” -(http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,COUNTRYREP,HRW,THA,412efec42,0.html) but have been unable to do so through google searches. If anyone could provide a link to previous debates about this report I would be grateful.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Ralph Kramden # 82
“Mungo: If you had read holocaust literature (not the holocaust denial literature) you would know better than to make the kind of comparisons you have. ”
The crimes of the 3rd Reich are quite obviously of an entirely different order of magnitude to those of the Thai Rak Thai regime. I was not attempting to draw a direct comparison between Thaksin and Hitler. My point was that an attempt to diminish the significance of, or to absolve the perpetrators of guilt for, serious crimes against humanity in order to further one’s political argument is abhorrent. The moral outrage expressed by David Brown #10 to the jailing of one of ‘his own’ is hypocracy of the highest order considering his desire to completely whitewash ‘a human rights abuser of the worst kind’.
“Your comment on my not absolving Thaksin of reprehensible actions suggests that you don’t get the point. I was making a point about the neglect of human rights and the violent use of the state’s repressive forces being something beyond one person and being about the ruling elites more generally and over time. Thailand’s governments and the leaders of its major repressive agencies have regularly abused human rights and killed people. Arguably, this has been the main role of the Thai military and the police are worse.”
I would agree that human rights abuse has been depressingly common in Thailand and indeed in many cultures both historically and in recent times. Please don’t get me started on the CIA! In my view rights abuse should be challenged vigorously at every opportunity regardless of ones political allegiance. “All those other guys were murderers too” is not a justification for pledging ones allegiance to a political movement which is dominated by a particularly vicious human rights criminal (whether many of the grievances of it’s followers are justified or not).
Why?
Being Thai myself, I have been asking this same question for several months now.
Perhaps, it’s true that the baby panda’s promotion is the government’s diversion campaign. To my dismay, it has succeeded to some degree. The baby panda’s popularity is evident by the occurrence of a buffalo panda, man panda on TV every now and then. I believe more variations of artificial pandas are on their way.
Does this tell us something about the current situation of Thai society? One thing I know for sure, that the Thai society can be easily manipulated by the media–a collection the powerful and prejudice corporations that concern more on how to sedate rather than educate and inform its people. The same goes with the constant feeding of fortunetelling regimen on national TV…
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
jonfernquest:
1. Can you cite evidence supporting your statement “For years no one pays much attention to the Amnesty International reports that document all sorts of atrocities by law enforcement and in jails in which people are severely harmed or lose their lives” ?
2. We’re not all “Southeast Asian Studies academics” here. But aside from your unwarranted slur against academics and the rest of us who care, can you deny there’s also “a stunning lack of consistency” in Amnesty’s total silence on the lese majeste cases? Are you actually saying AI is silent now because “no one” paid attention to them before? I think AI would be offended by such an accusation.
3. Are the current LM suits — Daranee, Giles Ungkaporn, Suwicha, Prachatai, etc. — more justifiable to you because they were initiated by post-Thaksin governments?
4. If “Amnesty International is trying to tell you guys to pay more attention to the real abuses that take place each year,” maybe Amnesty International would say so. Are you speaking with inside knowledge?
5. Maybe you’re right that “Thailand has fantastically wide freedoms of speech regarding the HR abuses that really count, that reached a new height during the Thaksin regime,” but (1) does that mean that 15 years in prison for lese majeste (or the longer terms under the new Computer Crimes Act that the police are so enthusiastic about) does not “really count”? and (2) what has the government done in response to the freely expressed criticisms of HR abuses “that really count”?
Thailand’s royal disgrace
David Brown #83
I would never shrink from criticizing Abhisit, the military or (within the law) any other influential figure for any failure to observe people’s fundamental human rights. Please see my comment below this recent article in the Bangkok Post – http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/22589/utter-despair-in-detention.
If you can provide an even remotely credible argument to support the view that Abhisit’s actions in office are in any way equivalent to Thaksin’s personal involvement in orchestrating, and subsequently taking great pride in, a campaign of mass murder I would be very interested to hear it.
Also, if you can find someone who wants to resurrect Field Marshal Pibun after 50+ years in the grave, absolve him of guilt for the abuse he was involved in, and campaign for his immediate return to office, I will be happy to condemn them in the very strongest terms.
And just for the record, I firmly believe that it would be of great benefit to Thailand (and the monarchy) if the country’s highest institution, and those in the immediate service of that institution, could be stringently protected from all involvement in politics.
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
Someone sent me a message with this suggestion
“Maybe someone should put something on Amnesty Blogs about this – it’s open to anyone: http://tr.im/y0fO”
Might be a really good place to begin a campaign and if Amnesty censored it would look even worse for them.
Just a thought!
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
Hang on – plenty of journalists and academics railed against Thaksin’s HR abuses Fernquest.
The only person posting here with a short memory is yourself.
Instead of endlessly trolling against any voices that dare to upset your romanticised view of regal Thailand, why don’t you actually try and do something constructive. Putting pressure on AI over LM is a very valid and worthwhile strategy.
And if you don’t see the sense of revoking a law like LM then your railing against Thaksin’s use of it rings completely and utterly hollow. Such a law should not be available to ANY Thai ruler.
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
As usual, jonfernquest is wrong. Persons he calls Southeast Asian Studies academics cited AI reports on Thailand, including during the Thaksin period. Some random examples from a quick Google:
McCargo and Ukrist, Thaksinization: footnote 68, p. 245.
McCargo, Tearing the Land…: several references.
Arnold and Hewison, Journal of Contemporary Asia, 2005.
Munger, NY Law School Law Review, 2007.
Pasuk and Baker, Thaksin, several references.
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
For years no one pays much attention to the Amnesty International reports that document all sorts of atrocities by law enforcement and in jails in which people are severely harmed or lose their lives. This trend really reached a height during the rule of police colonel Thaksin.
But when a few people can’t control their mouths and are made public examples of, then Southeast Asian Studies academics jump on a bandwagon and are suddenly interested in Amnesty International. What a stunning lack of consistency. No wonder why the general public is not very interested in what you have to say.
The general public also does not seem to be very interested in lese majeste issues in the way Southeast Asian Studies academics are, nor was Thaksin who has become there new cause celebre nor were his cronies who served as PMs earlier this year. Most of the LM suits were initiated under them.
Perhaps Amnesty International is trying to tell you guys to pay more attention to the real abuses that take place each year.
Thailand has fantastically wide freedoms of speech regarding the HR abuses that really count, that reached a new height during the Thaksin regime.
I’ll never forget when Thaksin tried to pressure an Akha voting rights activist up north by sending the police against members of her family.
Time to wake up and use your memory, flip flop academics.
Shot at Din Daeng
“The point is not how the red-shirt or whoever-wearing-red, did burn the bus…”
O really!
The ending of this year’s Songkran disturbances will go down in history as one of the most peaceful and skilled military operations in modern history.
It is a tragedy that these two people were injured but when you compare this with similar military or police actions in other countries or with the massive unexplained deaths of Thaksin’s “war on drugs” that only two protesters were injured is actually proof that the action was successful.
PM Abhisit should be commended for his balancing act.
If we had to rely on the intellectual flip-flop of left-leaning academics there would be absolute anarchy and the economy would grind to a halt.