It’s interesting that under the Obama Administration, two U.S. senior officials have met two of the most reclusive leaders in the world. Bill Clinton meeting North Korea’s Kim Jong II and now U.S. Senator, Jim Webb meeting Gen Than Shwe.
It may be about American’s held hostage, but I don’t think its the full story. It maybe that the U.S. is trying to build relationships with Myanmar and North Korea once again.
If this is true – it will be good if Myanmar and N. Korea reciprocates and become responsible members of the international community. If they don’t, then it may send a signal that it does no good to reward dictators.
On the other hand, it may be that the Obama Administration is building links with these countries to neutralise China – this is a big leap indeed. N. Korea and Myanmar survive mostly due to China’s support.
These initiaitves also fall into place with Obama Administrations renewed vigour for international diplomacy – activiely engaging in Europe/Russia, Africa and in Latin America.
If this is true and if it will work – only time will tell.
The frames are sort of a black colour and the lenses clear. Any other details you’d like?
My comment is essentially that it is easy to assert and harder to prove without providing evidence for such assertions of both previous “corruption” and present “independence” of the judiciary or without even suggesting what these terms mean for you.
It is relatively simple to suggest individual cases, but those cases may not add up to a case for whether the judiciary is independent, bought or something else. One needs also to be careful about which elements of the judiciary one is referring to.
Let me take one issue up. Several respected and informed legal authorities have taken up a process of judicialization in Thailand that began with the 1997 Constitution. So this is pre-Thaksin. They also argue that this process has accelerated from April 2006 (Ginsburg, 2008; Leyland, 2009. Is this judicialization the same as independence? Here I am meaning the works of:
Michael W. Dowdle, “On the regulatory dynamics of judicialization. The problems and perils of exploring ‘judicialization’ in East and Southeast Asia,” in Tom Ginsburg and Albert Y.H. Chen (eds), Administrative Law and Governance in Asia: Comparative Perspectives, London: Routledge, 2009, pp. 23-37.
Tom Ginsburg, Constitutional Afterlife: The Continuing Impact of Thailand’s Post-Political Constitution, Chicago: The Law School, The University of Chicago, Public Law and Legal Theory Working Paper No. 252, November 2008, https://www.law.uchicago.edu/files/pl252.pdf, accessed 22 January 2009.
Peter Leyland, “The Emergence of Administrative Justice under the 1997 Thai Constitution,” in Tom Ginsburg and Albert Y.H. Chen (eds), Administrative Law and Governance in Asia: Comparative Perspectives, London: Routledge, 2009, pp. 230-56.
Now a more assertive judiciary can be seen as a positive development. However, there are extreme risks that a highly interventionist judiciary, especially during periods of political conflict, means political bias. It can also set very awkward precedents and, as we have seen in Thailand, this can amount to “politics by other means.” In other words, judicialization can amount to politicization. And the politicization of the judiciary almost means that there is bias that can be construed as “corruption,” even if money is not involved.
For example, if one looks at the initial efforts to overturn the results of the 2007 election following the surprising result that saw PPP emerge as the largest party, is the judicial route demonstrating independence or the “corruption” of the judiciary through political bias?
Some examples of the time line and decisions:
Within days of the election, a series of judicial measures to weaken and defeat the PPP began. Just prior to the election, junta leader General Sonthi Boonyaratglin and the PAD leadership predicted a swathe of PPP election disqualifications (The Nation, 1 January 2008). Indeed, three PPP candidates were the first to be yellow-carded.
Within days of the election, the EC was investigating 83 cases, with 65 being PPP winning candidates (IHT, 3 January 2008). Meanwhile, the first suggestions that the PPP could be dissolved for election fraud were raised (Irrawaddy, 27 and 28 December 2007). Indeed, the EC head predicted that electoral fraud charges against deputy PPP leader Yongyuth Tiyapairat would result in the party’s dissolution (Bangkok Post, 10 January 2008). Within a month, the EC found Yongyuth guilty of vote-buying as dissident EC commissioners claimed that the decision had been rushed, without hearing Yongyuth’s witnesses (Bangkok Post, 15, 17 and 27 February 2008). And so on.
In other words, money is not the only form of “corruption” and suggesting that money is the source of corruption does not mean that not taking money equals independence. It can mean bias.
This was on TV last night here in the US of A. While definitely not as good as the coverage here on New Mandala, it does give a view of how Thailand’s political situation is treated in the popular media:
Who says the mainman won’t grant a pardon? If the leadership of this country was that strong, how come a comparative lightweight like Thaksin can make a complete mockery of it. He is not invincible. His “success” is nothing but an indication that the country has been completely mismanaged for decades. And he has done more than his fair share of that mismanagement as a means to get hideously rich The so-called strong men in the elite, including Thaksin, are a bunch of ineffectual wimps.
Awesome job again Nick – I must admit to being startled by the Monks as I think it carries to visual weight of the situation in Burma which I don’t think it compares. Love the book and keep safe.
“One of the guards said that they did not want to hurt anybody, but just scare them.”
Oh, so that’s alright then. Can’t wait for the PAD apologists to explain why these “guards” needed to scare anyone that was PASSING – or will the ever-truthful ASTV/Manager machine now claim that they thereby narrowly averted an attack?
@ Porman: It’s good that the really very unpleasant and ill-disguised wishful thinking of your final paragraph remains just that for now. What a totally thuggish comment………
Your report really reflects the heart of the red-shirt people.
You seem to be more concerned to them than that of our PM, wholooks at red-shirt people as his opponents. Sadly to say,he is from the priviledged group so I am not surprised.
Porman is indeed poorly informed. He or she may feel much better reading PAD propaganda. I heartily recommend http://www.antithaksin.com/BlankForm.php?Aid=0501012 were PAD ideologue Chai-anan Samudavanija, long on Sondhi’s payroll, and for a time on Thaksin’s, shows how crazed fascist ideology, money in hand, and remarkable arrogance replace on-the-ground sense and destroy all forms of critical thinking.
Nice reporting Nick, keep up the good work!
Field work reporting and journalism!
Since reporter from English newspaper(s) in Thailand are too uppity to do actual field work and decided to sip tea in an air-con room while write a column on discussion with imaginary friend.
Thanks Nick, a superb posting once again.
While the Abhisit government continues to ignore the voice of Redshirts, refuse to countenance any reconciliation with a very popular opponent and continue to coalesce with the terrorsits who got him into power, the country will continue to decline, be wasted.
Thank ‘God’ you were there to witness in photograph the event.
The report from ABC Radio claimed a smaller number of attendees and only “10” red-boxes of signed documents.
I followed the day via D-station TV, it looked like closer to the 100,000 people the UDD had aimed for.
So Ralph needs proof of corruption while RN England say judges were and are still corrupt. RN feels that an independent judiciary needs a “tradition of the rule of law”, but because Thailand hasn’t had this the judiciary will never be independent. Looks like a no-win situation then.
I guess RN would agree that at least cases aren’t being settled by the highest bidder as much as before, even if the judges aren’t independent of the “network monarchy”. Not really sure what that is, sounds like crown property investment in telecoms.
The funny thing is the judiciary is enforcing laws, admittedly some from the most recent constitution, that they just would have turned a blind eye to in the past. Thaksin’s charges of unfairness in that laws on corruption are being enforced whereas in the past they weren’t rings true. It seems there is still a lot of the old style Chinese tax farmer in many of the politicians up in front of the courts.
Mind you the courts finding against so many Democrat MPs over the share ownership issue tends to support the argument of greater independence as I can’t see what the “network monarchy” stands to gain in this.
Interesting that this has been made into a kind of religious thing with pictures of Thaksin looking like a cross between a Hindu deity and a Bollywood film star. In one picture a red shirt is seen waiing the head and trotters of an luckless porcine sacrifice.
It was clever to switch the emphasis from being a petition for a pardon that can easily be dismissed on legal grounds to an expression of grievances, although the effects on the economy of Thaksin’s ramping up of corruption and cronyism to a level that would make Marcos envious and his human rights record were glossed over by the petitiioners. I wonder how long it will take the Justice Ministry to verify all the signatories and confirm they really hold those views. There is still no legal way for HM to grant a pardon to a fugitive who has not respected his sentence, even if he sympathizes with the petitition but Thaksin, the chess player, is really enjoying trying to put the King in check.
I am sure that, had the PAD guards read Nick’s earlier account of Thaksin’s Songkran red shirt uprising where various brutish acts were ascribed to “PAD guards” without verification, they would not have calmly allowed him to take photographs. Perhaps next time they will be better informed and will direct a carefully aimed volley of slingshots at him that might give him some justification for his biased reporting.
Formerly the judges tended to be the stooges of anyone who paid them enough. Since being hauled over the coals by the King in his famous speech, they have become the stooges of the intensely political “Network Monarchy”. To represent the present situation as judicial independence is absurd. Judicial independence requires a tradition of the rule of law, which is at best embryonic in Thailand.
Coups tend to happen when the military leadership feel threatened. Maybe that should read army leadership. The head of the army usually makes sure his men occupy all those important positions.
I would guess a coup now would be more likely over military reshuffle issues. Then again who would pull it as it seems quite open that the military are divided. This years reshuffle must be quite a negotiation and that is even with the Thaksin supporters sidelined in this issue.
Coup rumours are thrown around for all kinds of reasons imho:
Real threats by military, real fears by government, posturing by an individual military or political leader, disinformation, misinformation, media scoop, media invention, coup prevention technique, a dont you dare to the government, add a whole rake more of things. At the end of the day in Thailand a coup is a regular part of the political agenda and will therefore always be part of the equation of what will happen.
Ralph, what colour glasses do you wear? You aren’t going to give me past corruption in the courts? Next you will tell me that money doesn’t help in dealing with the Thai police.
Signs of the present independence of judiciary from the politicians are the courts going against both the Samak and Somchai governments and even the ruling against Democrat MPs holding shares in media companies. And of course judges not accepting the lunchbox full of money and Thaksin’s lawyers going in the pokey.
The argument you could make is how independent they are of the palace, after all judges do consider themselves representatives of the crown. This in a way is how many countries try to keep the judiciary and government separate, by the judiciary representing a different power, be it an idea of statehood or a written constitution. In the UK and I guess Australia it is as representatives of the crown also. This independence just hasn’t happened that much in Thailand in the post-war years before.
Yetaw! Plonker is about the only label that currently seems apt for the man. He can feign as much insanity and ill health as he likes and I would still like to hold him 100% responsible.
The Junta are now prepared to continue holding a revered person for the insane/idiotic actions of an American nobody who they have already decided to release. Not exactly the finest moment of either silly old man!
We should judge Kittivuttho by his disgraceful actions rather than his reported idioms (aka weasel words). Kittivuttho is typical of those people who want to be politicians and still scamper off to hide behind a colored robe when they get themselves into trouble.
Monks are traditionally supposed to offer succor to those who may not be entirely suited to the cut-&-thrust of a hot-house environment of competitiveness – by which I am referring to the vast majority of the world’s population. If they are no longer prepared to offer that sanctuary, then they have largely rendered themselves obsolete. I really don’t need a monk to preach to me on how to be a successful rich kid, when at my advanced age I already know that I can teach myself how to be content with what little I have.
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17 August 2009: petition day
More violence does seem inevitable. Now is more about manouver and the marshalling of forces before the main events.
Thanks for the report
John Yettaw released
It’s interesting that under the Obama Administration, two U.S. senior officials have met two of the most reclusive leaders in the world. Bill Clinton meeting North Korea’s Kim Jong II and now U.S. Senator, Jim Webb meeting Gen Than Shwe.
It may be about American’s held hostage, but I don’t think its the full story. It maybe that the U.S. is trying to build relationships with Myanmar and North Korea once again.
If this is true – it will be good if Myanmar and N. Korea reciprocates and become responsible members of the international community. If they don’t, then it may send a signal that it does no good to reward dictators.
On the other hand, it may be that the Obama Administration is building links with these countries to neutralise China – this is a big leap indeed. N. Korea and Myanmar survive mostly due to China’s support.
These initiaitves also fall into place with Obama Administrations renewed vigour for international diplomacy – activiely engaging in Europe/Russia, Africa and in Latin America.
If this is true and if it will work – only time will tell.
Montesano on Thailand in April 2009
Les Abbey
The frames are sort of a black colour and the lenses clear. Any other details you’d like?
My comment is essentially that it is easy to assert and harder to prove without providing evidence for such assertions of both previous “corruption” and present “independence” of the judiciary or without even suggesting what these terms mean for you.
It is relatively simple to suggest individual cases, but those cases may not add up to a case for whether the judiciary is independent, bought or something else. One needs also to be careful about which elements of the judiciary one is referring to.
Let me take one issue up. Several respected and informed legal authorities have taken up a process of judicialization in Thailand that began with the 1997 Constitution. So this is pre-Thaksin. They also argue that this process has accelerated from April 2006 (Ginsburg, 2008; Leyland, 2009. Is this judicialization the same as independence? Here I am meaning the works of:
Michael W. Dowdle, “On the regulatory dynamics of judicialization. The problems and perils of exploring ‘judicialization’ in East and Southeast Asia,” in Tom Ginsburg and Albert Y.H. Chen (eds), Administrative Law and Governance in Asia: Comparative Perspectives, London: Routledge, 2009, pp. 23-37.
Tom Ginsburg, Constitutional Afterlife: The Continuing Impact of Thailand’s Post-Political Constitution, Chicago: The Law School, The University of Chicago, Public Law and Legal Theory Working Paper No. 252, November 2008, https://www.law.uchicago.edu/files/pl252.pdf, accessed 22 January 2009.
Peter Leyland, “The Emergence of Administrative Justice under the 1997 Thai Constitution,” in Tom Ginsburg and Albert Y.H. Chen (eds), Administrative Law and Governance in Asia: Comparative Perspectives, London: Routledge, 2009, pp. 230-56.
Now a more assertive judiciary can be seen as a positive development. However, there are extreme risks that a highly interventionist judiciary, especially during periods of political conflict, means political bias. It can also set very awkward precedents and, as we have seen in Thailand, this can amount to “politics by other means.” In other words, judicialization can amount to politicization. And the politicization of the judiciary almost means that there is bias that can be construed as “corruption,” even if money is not involved.
For example, if one looks at the initial efforts to overturn the results of the 2007 election following the surprising result that saw PPP emerge as the largest party, is the judicial route demonstrating independence or the “corruption” of the judiciary through political bias?
Some examples of the time line and decisions:
Within days of the election, a series of judicial measures to weaken and defeat the PPP began. Just prior to the election, junta leader General Sonthi Boonyaratglin and the PAD leadership predicted a swathe of PPP election disqualifications (The Nation, 1 January 2008). Indeed, three PPP candidates were the first to be yellow-carded.
Within days of the election, the EC was investigating 83 cases, with 65 being PPP winning candidates (IHT, 3 January 2008). Meanwhile, the first suggestions that the PPP could be dissolved for election fraud were raised (Irrawaddy, 27 and 28 December 2007). Indeed, the EC head predicted that electoral fraud charges against deputy PPP leader Yongyuth Tiyapairat would result in the party’s dissolution (Bangkok Post, 10 January 2008). Within a month, the EC found Yongyuth guilty of vote-buying as dissident EC commissioners claimed that the decision had been rushed, without hearing Yongyuth’s witnesses (Bangkok Post, 15, 17 and 27 February 2008). And so on.
In other words, money is not the only form of “corruption” and suggesting that money is the source of corruption does not mean that not taking money equals independence. It can mean bias.
17 August 2009: petition day
This was on TV last night here in the US of A. While definitely not as good as the coverage here on New Mandala, it does give a view of how Thailand’s political situation is treated in the popular media:
http://www.travelchannel.com/TV_Shows/Anthony_Bourdain/Episode_Guide_Thailand.
17 August 2009: petition day
Who says the mainman won’t grant a pardon? If the leadership of this country was that strong, how come a comparative lightweight like Thaksin can make a complete mockery of it. He is not invincible. His “success” is nothing but an indication that the country has been completely mismanaged for decades. And he has done more than his fair share of that mismanagement as a means to get hideously rich The so-called strong men in the elite, including Thaksin, are a bunch of ineffectual wimps.
17 August 2009: petition day
Awesome job again Nick – I must admit to being startled by the Monks as I think it carries to visual weight of the situation in Burma which I don’t think it compares. Love the book and keep safe.
J
17 August 2009: petition day
“One of the guards said that they did not want to hurt anybody, but just scare them.”
Oh, so that’s alright then. Can’t wait for the PAD apologists to explain why these “guards” needed to scare anyone that was PASSING – or will the ever-truthful ASTV/Manager machine now claim that they thereby narrowly averted an attack?
@ Porman: It’s good that the really very unpleasant and ill-disguised wishful thinking of your final paragraph remains just that for now. What a totally thuggish comment………
17 August 2009: petition day
Good job, Nick.
Your report really reflects the heart of the red-shirt people.
You seem to be more concerned to them than that of our PM, wholooks at red-shirt people as his opponents. Sadly to say,he is from the priviledged group so I am not surprised.
17 August 2009: petition day
Porman is indeed poorly informed. He or she may feel much better reading PAD propaganda. I heartily recommend http://www.antithaksin.com/BlankForm.php?Aid=0501012 were PAD ideologue Chai-anan Samudavanija, long on Sondhi’s payroll, and for a time on Thaksin’s, shows how crazed fascist ideology, money in hand, and remarkable arrogance replace on-the-ground sense and destroy all forms of critical thinking.
17 August 2009: petition day
Nice reporting Nick, keep up the good work!
Field work reporting and journalism!
Since reporter from English newspaper(s) in Thailand are too uppity to do actual field work and decided to sip tea in an air-con room while write a column on discussion with imaginary friend.
17 August 2009: petition day
@Porman
Nice to see you threatening violence to Nick here.
Know what it makes you look like? A pathetic, tired, ineffectual moron.
You’re perfect for the PAD and are likely to drag your country into terrible bloodshed.
17 August 2009: petition day
Thanks Nick, a superb posting once again.
While the Abhisit government continues to ignore the voice of Redshirts, refuse to countenance any reconciliation with a very popular opponent and continue to coalesce with the terrorsits who got him into power, the country will continue to decline, be wasted.
Thank ‘God’ you were there to witness in photograph the event.
The report from ABC Radio claimed a smaller number of attendees and only “10” red-boxes of signed documents.
I followed the day via D-station TV, it looked like closer to the 100,000 people the UDD had aimed for.
Montesano on Thailand in April 2009
So Ralph needs proof of corruption while RN England say judges were and are still corrupt. RN feels that an independent judiciary needs a “tradition of the rule of law”, but because Thailand hasn’t had this the judiciary will never be independent. Looks like a no-win situation then.
I guess RN would agree that at least cases aren’t being settled by the highest bidder as much as before, even if the judges aren’t independent of the “network monarchy”. Not really sure what that is, sounds like crown property investment in telecoms.
The funny thing is the judiciary is enforcing laws, admittedly some from the most recent constitution, that they just would have turned a blind eye to in the past. Thaksin’s charges of unfairness in that laws on corruption are being enforced whereas in the past they weren’t rings true. It seems there is still a lot of the old style Chinese tax farmer in many of the politicians up in front of the courts.
Mind you the courts finding against so many Democrat MPs over the share ownership issue tends to support the argument of greater independence as I can’t see what the “network monarchy” stands to gain in this.
17 August 2009: petition day
Interesting that this has been made into a kind of religious thing with pictures of Thaksin looking like a cross between a Hindu deity and a Bollywood film star. In one picture a red shirt is seen waiing the head and trotters of an luckless porcine sacrifice.
It was clever to switch the emphasis from being a petition for a pardon that can easily be dismissed on legal grounds to an expression of grievances, although the effects on the economy of Thaksin’s ramping up of corruption and cronyism to a level that would make Marcos envious and his human rights record were glossed over by the petitiioners. I wonder how long it will take the Justice Ministry to verify all the signatories and confirm they really hold those views. There is still no legal way for HM to grant a pardon to a fugitive who has not respected his sentence, even if he sympathizes with the petitition but Thaksin, the chess player, is really enjoying trying to put the King in check.
I am sure that, had the PAD guards read Nick’s earlier account of Thaksin’s Songkran red shirt uprising where various brutish acts were ascribed to “PAD guards” without verification, they would not have calmly allowed him to take photographs. Perhaps next time they will be better informed and will direct a carefully aimed volley of slingshots at him that might give him some justification for his biased reporting.
Montesano on Thailand in April 2009
Formerly the judges tended to be the stooges of anyone who paid them enough. Since being hauled over the coals by the King in his famous speech, they have become the stooges of the intensely political “Network Monarchy”. To represent the present situation as judicial independence is absurd. Judicial independence requires a tradition of the rule of law, which is at best embryonic in Thailand.
Suthep denies
Coups tend to happen when the military leadership feel threatened. Maybe that should read army leadership. The head of the army usually makes sure his men occupy all those important positions.
I would guess a coup now would be more likely over military reshuffle issues. Then again who would pull it as it seems quite open that the military are divided. This years reshuffle must be quite a negotiation and that is even with the Thaksin supporters sidelined in this issue.
Coup rumours are thrown around for all kinds of reasons imho:
Real threats by military, real fears by government, posturing by an individual military or political leader, disinformation, misinformation, media scoop, media invention, coup prevention technique, a dont you dare to the government, add a whole rake more of things. At the end of the day in Thailand a coup is a regular part of the political agenda and will therefore always be part of the equation of what will happen.
Montesano on Thailand in April 2009
Ralph, what colour glasses do you wear? You aren’t going to give me past corruption in the courts? Next you will tell me that money doesn’t help in dealing with the Thai police.
Signs of the present independence of judiciary from the politicians are the courts going against both the Samak and Somchai governments and even the ruling against Democrat MPs holding shares in media companies. And of course judges not accepting the lunchbox full of money and Thaksin’s lawyers going in the pokey.
The argument you could make is how independent they are of the palace, after all judges do consider themselves representatives of the crown. This in a way is how many countries try to keep the judiciary and government separate, by the judiciary representing a different power, be it an idea of statehood or a written constitution. In the UK and I guess Australia it is as representatives of the crown also. This independence just hasn’t happened that much in Thailand in the post-war years before.
John Yettaw released
Yetaw! Plonker is about the only label that currently seems apt for the man. He can feign as much insanity and ill health as he likes and I would still like to hold him 100% responsible.
The Junta are now prepared to continue holding a revered person for the insane/idiotic actions of an American nobody who they have already decided to release. Not exactly the finest moment of either silly old man!
Monk
We should judge Kittivuttho by his disgraceful actions rather than his reported idioms (aka weasel words). Kittivuttho is typical of those people who want to be politicians and still scamper off to hide behind a colored robe when they get themselves into trouble.
Monks are traditionally supposed to offer succor to those who may not be entirely suited to the cut-&-thrust of a hot-house environment of competitiveness – by which I am referring to the vast majority of the world’s population. If they are no longer prepared to offer that sanctuary, then they have largely rendered themselves obsolete. I really don’t need a monk to preach to me on how to be a successful rich kid, when at my advanced age I already know that I can teach myself how to be content with what little I have.
Thaksin supporters magazine
No, it’s not a Matichon clone, Frank!