rather the futility is supportive of the rigid values we percieve a country to have. instead of ‘not flexible with the paradigm of values’
and from the third…
‘We’re often determined to see elites in Southeast Asia as unwavering standard bearers of injustice’… because they perpetrate human rights violations, but this perception does not allow for the growth of character that we associate with liberalism and universal human rights. In these apparent empty handshakes, maybe there is some evolution we might not wish to acknowledge. Sure in Myanmar, it is hard for a rock, the Junta, to evolve much more than being a rock.
Gregore, how is being futile about the prospects of the peer review process going to help the recognition of human rights in Southeast Asia? It just fuels the relativist fire that burns on the pile unjust incidents that go on here daily because this futility is not flexible with the paradigm of values we percieve a nation to have.
Even that it is a superficial recognition in this commission, it is a recognition. I would imagine the current leadership of many ASEAN states share your skepticism about implementing human rights themselves, albeit from a different perspective. However, perhaps future generations will not be so skeptical – and they shouldn’t be robbed the opportunity of liberal growth by those of us who find the current situation confrontational.
We’re often determined to see elites in Southeast Asia as unwavering standard bearers of injustice, but how many in those states know of the injustices committed? How many in Myanmar know? Was the commission mentioned in the New Light of Myanmar? Eventually citizens will find out and it will make the Junta that much more guilty.
So yes, at least the commission is there, recognised and ready to be talked about – and even if it’s all empty handshakes, those making future handshakes might be more disposed to universal value judgements. If that process takes 42 years, then it takes 42 years. There is no fast forward button… unless you want to interfere with a states sovereignty… But how dignified would that be?
Daranee aka Da Torpedo was arrested and detained on July 22, 2008, on lèse majesté charges for what she said in a public speech during a political rally at Sanam Luang in mid 2008. The court has denied her bail and ordered the hearings be held in secret, claiming the case concerns national security.
The hearings of witnesses for the prosecution were held on June 23-25, and witnesses for the defence will testify on July 28 and Aug 5.
The activists ask those who join the activity to bring flowers and banners in support of Daranee.
“Activists call to Khlong Prem, to mark one year of Da Torpedo’s imprisonment.
A group of activists called Social Move has sent emails inviting the public to visit Daranee Charnchoengsilapakul at Khlong Prem Prison, at 9.30-11.30 am on July 30, to give her moral support.” http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/1320
TP,SP: “Religious activities should not be involved in politics but can be enhance through peace, virtue, moral and charitable-philantrophy actions and teachings.” Very nice.
Any ‘nice’ stuff to say on the ‘Orange Revolution” in Burma?
And that’s precisely why you have a political problem. The more money you spend on anything, the more it inevitably becomes political. Save yourself the bother and just enjoy nature for what it is, instead of hacking down every live object in sight for the glorification of dead things. ‘God’, in its infinite wisdom, lives in things that are alive, and dies in dead things.
Maverick: as before, I have no idea what your post means. I tried Google Translate, but came up with nothing that made sense in several languages. Any chance you can be clear?
I am loathe to adopt an ad hominem posture but having read all of the above, without really having any investment in either side and whilst maintaining a modicum of knowledge about Thai politics, can only summarise that Sidh is talking out of his rear end.
Now as an evil farang dog I know there are many things I do not understand – god forbid – nor will I ever be able to.
But what is apparent is that Thailand is in series effing meltdown.
Maybe we should just leave the Sidhs of this world to decline into the blood-soaked obscurity that Thailand seems to be heading towards?
I mean, this dude’s supposedly educated yet he can’t even sustain a rational argument.
Congratulations, Chris, and i wish you good success with your show! Well done!
I have two of Chris Coles’s paintings on my wall (which he traded me for some of my original prints). I very much like them, the starkness, the bold lines and vivid colors evoke the strange appeal and the tragedy of the nightlife, and its plain weirdness.
sometimes new mandala shows off the great great wisdom of western academic intelligentsia… well, dear editors… you know best whose voices just… go away, na 🙂
*
here’s a guy called Lleij Samuel Schwartz , saying:
“As such, I believe my moral world-view concerning this topic is fairly consistent; as opposed to yours, for reasons I explicated on in comment #36”
ei ei ei… i’d say dear boddhisattava lss… na, i guess you know… from literature 😉 this saying… that a spoon does not experience taste, chai mai?
*
& there’s ralph kramden again… 😉
uiih, it must be a small pub that is new mandala… where like minded guys meet… to sniff at each others traits… who’s me?
But I would like to say something nice. It takes a lot of effort to built something so nice an environment for people to meditate for world peace. It involves a lot of public funds. It is the people’s kindness to donate a temple of the Buddha and benefitted so many people who wants world peace and for the nation’s needy sangha fundings.
The money donated is meant for peace and merit making for people who belief in it. Nothing more. The money donated is not meant for other purpose or for geogrofically poor rural nations as suggested by visitors. We hope all will respects the people who donated for the cause.
Religious activities should not be involved in politics but can be enhance through peace, virtue, moral and charitable-philantrophy actions and teachings. Otherwise, this will create a problem in the temple administration.
The temple is a holy place no matter how much money is spend. Too many negative people and different opinions only create a negative environment.
@ SILENT is GOLDEN.
@ REJOICE in the SUCCESS OF OTHERS “SADHU”
Sidh: I have been away from internet for some days and have sporadic access now. I am replying to 46 above. As you recall, I said that I was happy to talk about the expansion and contraction of political space in Thailand and that if you made ” your claims, with adequate justification and so on,” then I would try to respond. Recall also that this was related to a comment of mine: “Try blaming those who keep the law exactly for the purpose of narrowing the political space.” To that you responded: “And what narrowing down of Thai political space?… Thai political space has never been as wide as it is today! ”
To that I responded: “Presumably. But you read me incorrectly. I said: “Try blaming those who keep the law exactly for the purpose of narrowing the political space.” I wasn’t talking about the present but the historical use of LM. You can look at the statistics on this in the well-circulated Streckfuss and Thanapol article. That said, I do not think that political space is expanding in Thailand just now, but that’s a separate debate.
Now you want to debate a period since 1992. I thought we were discussing the current period? My claim is “I do not think that political space is expanding in Thailand just now…”. Is that the issue or something else?
Why is it that whenever we get into this conversation, you invariably degrade it to a silly tu quoque argument?
You’ve asked me what the path of the Bodhisattva tells me? It is simple, to show compassion to all beings and work to end their suffering. One of the greatest causes of suffering in our samsaric existence is the denial of our fellow being’s physical, mental, and spiritual liberty. As, I have told you in comment #24, I object to all unjust limitations on liberty, be it in America, Europe, Asia, or anywhere else. As such, I believe my moral world-view concerning this topic is fairly consistent; as opposed to yours, for reasons I explicated on in comment #36.
Since you are wont to view all things on a “East-West” axis, I would recommend to you to explore the writings of such men as Laozi, especially his poem “Governing a Nation Is Like Cooking a Small Fish” in the Tao Te Ching, and Zhuangzi and his philosophy of spontaneous order.
All Thais, judiciary or no, are crooked to a certain degree. So please don’t assume the holier-than-thou attitude. Some day the arrow you point at others will turn to point at yourself.”
I think what Nudi really means is that his/her brother, who is a policeman, might just shoot us in the back if we persist in reminding him that he seems to carry more crimes than he actually goes looking for.
Interesting & thought-provoking article. Thanks, Thomas. I’m wondering where the tourists come from (Looking at the photos I can’t see any westerners, which is probably a Good Thing.), and how they are lured to the temple.
Presumably the Dai people do have their own local temples, since there is a local sangha mentioned, and I’m wondering what NM readers would think of the idea that, if the government is running a tourist promotion, it may be better to have the hordes tramping through a ‘fake’ temple than turning the real ones into tourist sites.
This whole ‘ethnic zoo’ thing is really repugnant. But it seems to be quite unstoppable. The tourist dollar is so attractive that the governments & business people go into a feeding frenzy, without looking at the possible consequences. This is not to say that tourism has to be an enterprise that is destructive to local cultural & environmental ecology. But top-down planning without consultation & real partnerships is, & there is so much evidence to show this, that it’s surprising that it is allowed to continue.
Forgive me if this is off-topic, but only slightly so: NM readers may be aware that the aboriginal people in Central Australia have campaigned for many years to stop the tourists from walking up Uluru, which is a sacred site, and is said to ‘belong’ to its ‘traditional owners’. Yet these ‘owners’ don’t seem to have the right to close the climb to tourists. They have no objection to people walking around the area, & even camping. The campaign has been to no avail, and recently it has been re-energised. The PM, who did at least make a long-desired official apology on behalf of all Australians to all indigenous Australians for the numerous atrocities they’ve had to endure, nevertheless clings to the belief that to climb or not to climb should be a matter of individual conscience for tourists, thus cutting the wishes of the ‘traditional owners’ completely out of the picture, & negating the notion of ownership. Tourists don’t go to Uluru to climb it – it’s not exacly Everest (& there’s another story!); they go there to see it & experience the feeling of being there – unlike anywhere else on earth. They would continue to go there if the climb were unavailable. The appalling state of aboriginal societies, a most insensitively-handled report & recommendations on which are said to have triggered off the renewal of the campaign, is quite obviously attributable to the loss of a sense of ownership & self-determination – I’m getting into cliches here, because it’s so well known.
Sidh, I like your “mega-wats”! Nice play on words, with a ‘power’ resonance.
Does this imply that…
* there was more freedom of speech in Burma in 1976 than now?
* there was more freedom of speech in Burma in 1976 than in Thailand?
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ASEAN and Human Rights – Can they mix?
some edits:
From the first block of text..
rather the futility is supportive of the rigid values we percieve a country to have. instead of ‘not flexible with the paradigm of values’
and from the third…
‘We’re often determined to see elites in Southeast Asia as unwavering standard bearers of injustice’… because they perpetrate human rights violations, but this perception does not allow for the growth of character that we associate with liberalism and universal human rights. In these apparent empty handshakes, maybe there is some evolution we might not wish to acknowledge. Sure in Myanmar, it is hard for a rock, the Junta, to evolve much more than being a rock.
But for the rest, slowly, slowly.
Plus ca change …
…plus c’est la meme chose.
It says a lot about Thailand that attitudes to press freedom haven’t changed at all in 33 years.
Plus ca change …
It says a lot about Thailand that attitudes to press freedom haven’t changed at all in 33 years. It tells us very little about Myanmar.
ASEAN and Human Rights – Can they mix?
Gregore, how is being futile about the prospects of the peer review process going to help the recognition of human rights in Southeast Asia? It just fuels the relativist fire that burns on the pile unjust incidents that go on here daily because this futility is not flexible with the paradigm of values we percieve a nation to have.
Even that it is a superficial recognition in this commission, it is a recognition. I would imagine the current leadership of many ASEAN states share your skepticism about implementing human rights themselves, albeit from a different perspective. However, perhaps future generations will not be so skeptical – and they shouldn’t be robbed the opportunity of liberal growth by those of us who find the current situation confrontational.
We’re often determined to see elites in Southeast Asia as unwavering standard bearers of injustice, but how many in those states know of the injustices committed? How many in Myanmar know? Was the commission mentioned in the New Light of Myanmar? Eventually citizens will find out and it will make the Junta that much more guilty.
So yes, at least the commission is there, recognised and ready to be talked about – and even if it’s all empty handshakes, those making future handshakes might be more disposed to universal value judgements. If that process takes 42 years, then it takes 42 years. There is no fast forward button… unless you want to interfere with a states sovereignty… But how dignified would that be?
The glass is definitely half full.
Support Suwicha Thakor
May I propose to name the new panda cub in Thailand instead?
http://www.posttoday.com/breakingnews.php?id=50417
Support Suwicha Thakor
Daranee aka Da Torpedo was arrested and detained on July 22, 2008, on lèse majesté charges for what she said in a public speech during a political rally at Sanam Luang in mid 2008. The court has denied her bail and ordered the hearings be held in secret, claiming the case concerns national security.
The hearings of witnesses for the prosecution were held on June 23-25, and witnesses for the defence will testify on July 28 and Aug 5.
The activists ask those who join the activity to bring flowers and banners in support of Daranee.
Source:
http://www.prachatai.com/journal/2009/07/25212
Support Suwicha Thakor
“Activists call to Khlong Prem, to mark one year of Da Torpedo’s imprisonment.
A group of activists called Social Move has sent emails inviting the public to visit Daranee Charnchoengsilapakul at Khlong Prem Prison, at 9.30-11.30 am on July 30, to give her moral support.” http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/1320
Needs no comment.
Fools and their money
TP,SP: “Religious activities should not be involved in politics but can be enhance through peace, virtue, moral and charitable-philantrophy actions and teachings.” Very nice.
Any ‘nice’ stuff to say on the ‘Orange Revolution” in Burma?
Fools and their money
And that’s precisely why you have a political problem. The more money you spend on anything, the more it inevitably becomes political. Save yourself the bother and just enjoy nature for what it is, instead of hacking down every live object in sight for the glorification of dead things. ‘God’, in its infinite wisdom, lives in things that are alive, and dies in dead things.
“An attack on the rights of journalists”
Maverick: as before, I have no idea what your post means. I tried Google Translate, but came up with nothing that made sense in several languages. Any chance you can be clear?
“An attack on the rights of journalists”
I am loathe to adopt an ad hominem posture but having read all of the above, without really having any investment in either side and whilst maintaining a modicum of knowledge about Thai politics, can only summarise that Sidh is talking out of his rear end.
Now as an evil farang dog I know there are many things I do not understand – god forbid – nor will I ever be able to.
But what is apparent is that Thailand is in series effing meltdown.
Maybe we should just leave the Sidhs of this world to decline into the blood-soaked obscurity that Thailand seems to be heading towards?
I mean, this dude’s supposedly educated yet he can’t even sustain a rational argument.
Bangkok night life comes to Singapore
Congratulations, Chris, and i wish you good success with your show! Well done!
I have two of Chris Coles’s paintings on my wall (which he traded me for some of my original prints). I very much like them, the starkness, the bold lines and vivid colors evoke the strange appeal and the tragedy of the nightlife, and its plain weirdness.
“An attack on the rights of journalists”
🙂
sometimes new mandala shows off the great great wisdom of western academic intelligentsia… well, dear editors… you know best whose voices just… go away, na 🙂
*
here’s a guy called Lleij Samuel Schwartz , saying:
“As such, I believe my moral world-view concerning this topic is fairly consistent; as opposed to yours, for reasons I explicated on in comment #36”
ei ei ei… i’d say dear boddhisattava lss… na, i guess you know… from literature 😉 this saying… that a spoon does not experience taste, chai mai?
*
& there’s ralph kramden again… 😉
uiih, it must be a small pub that is new mandala… where like minded guys meet… to sniff at each others traits… who’s me?
Fools and their money
I’ve no commence to the negative things said.
But I would like to say something nice. It takes a lot of effort to built something so nice an environment for people to meditate for world peace. It involves a lot of public funds. It is the people’s kindness to donate a temple of the Buddha and benefitted so many people who wants world peace and for the nation’s needy sangha fundings.
The money donated is meant for peace and merit making for people who belief in it. Nothing more. The money donated is not meant for other purpose or for geogrofically poor rural nations as suggested by visitors. We hope all will respects the people who donated for the cause.
Religious activities should not be involved in politics but can be enhance through peace, virtue, moral and charitable-philantrophy actions and teachings. Otherwise, this will create a problem in the temple administration.
The temple is a holy place no matter how much money is spend. Too many negative people and different opinions only create a negative environment.
@ SILENT is GOLDEN.
@ REJOICE in the SUCCESS OF OTHERS “SADHU”
“An attack on the rights of journalists”
Sidh: I have been away from internet for some days and have sporadic access now. I am replying to 46 above. As you recall, I said that I was happy to talk about the expansion and contraction of political space in Thailand and that if you made ” your claims, with adequate justification and so on,” then I would try to respond. Recall also that this was related to a comment of mine: “Try blaming those who keep the law exactly for the purpose of narrowing the political space.” To that you responded: “And what narrowing down of Thai political space?… Thai political space has never been as wide as it is today! ”
To that I responded: “Presumably. But you read me incorrectly. I said: “Try blaming those who keep the law exactly for the purpose of narrowing the political space.” I wasn’t talking about the present but the historical use of LM. You can look at the statistics on this in the well-circulated Streckfuss and Thanapol article. That said, I do not think that political space is expanding in Thailand just now, but that’s a separate debate.
Now you want to debate a period since 1992. I thought we were discussing the current period? My claim is “I do not think that political space is expanding in Thailand just now…”. Is that the issue or something else?
“An attack on the rights of journalists”
re: Sidh
Why is it that whenever we get into this conversation, you invariably degrade it to a silly tu quoque argument?
You’ve asked me what the path of the Bodhisattva tells me? It is simple, to show compassion to all beings and work to end their suffering. One of the greatest causes of suffering in our samsaric existence is the denial of our fellow being’s physical, mental, and spiritual liberty. As, I have told you in comment #24, I object to all unjust limitations on liberty, be it in America, Europe, Asia, or anywhere else. As such, I believe my moral world-view concerning this topic is fairly consistent; as opposed to yours, for reasons I explicated on in comment #36.
Since you are wont to view all things on a “East-West” axis, I would recommend to you to explore the writings of such men as Laozi, especially his poem “Governing a Nation Is Like Cooking a Small Fish” in the Tao Te Ching, and Zhuangzi and his philosophy of spontaneous order.
Prasert Nasakul: RIP
“Nudi Samsao // Jul 21, 2009 at 12:52 pm
All Thais, judiciary or no, are crooked to a certain degree. So please don’t assume the holier-than-thou attitude. Some day the arrow you point at others will turn to point at yourself.”
I think what Nudi really means is that his/her brother, who is a policeman, might just shoot us in the back if we persist in reminding him that he seems to carry more crimes than he actually goes looking for.
Sooo moral!
Wat Luang Sipsongpanna: a follow-up report
Interesting & thought-provoking article. Thanks, Thomas. I’m wondering where the tourists come from (Looking at the photos I can’t see any westerners, which is probably a Good Thing.), and how they are lured to the temple.
Presumably the Dai people do have their own local temples, since there is a local sangha mentioned, and I’m wondering what NM readers would think of the idea that, if the government is running a tourist promotion, it may be better to have the hordes tramping through a ‘fake’ temple than turning the real ones into tourist sites.
This whole ‘ethnic zoo’ thing is really repugnant. But it seems to be quite unstoppable. The tourist dollar is so attractive that the governments & business people go into a feeding frenzy, without looking at the possible consequences. This is not to say that tourism has to be an enterprise that is destructive to local cultural & environmental ecology. But top-down planning without consultation & real partnerships is, & there is so much evidence to show this, that it’s surprising that it is allowed to continue.
Forgive me if this is off-topic, but only slightly so: NM readers may be aware that the aboriginal people in Central Australia have campaigned for many years to stop the tourists from walking up Uluru, which is a sacred site, and is said to ‘belong’ to its ‘traditional owners’. Yet these ‘owners’ don’t seem to have the right to close the climb to tourists. They have no objection to people walking around the area, & even camping. The campaign has been to no avail, and recently it has been re-energised. The PM, who did at least make a long-desired official apology on behalf of all Australians to all indigenous Australians for the numerous atrocities they’ve had to endure, nevertheless clings to the belief that to climb or not to climb should be a matter of individual conscience for tourists, thus cutting the wishes of the ‘traditional owners’ completely out of the picture, & negating the notion of ownership. Tourists don’t go to Uluru to climb it – it’s not exacly Everest (& there’s another story!); they go there to see it & experience the feeling of being there – unlike anywhere else on earth. They would continue to go there if the climb were unavailable. The appalling state of aboriginal societies, a most insensitively-handled report & recommendations on which are said to have triggered off the renewal of the campaign, is quite obviously attributable to the loss of a sense of ownership & self-determination – I’m getting into cliches here, because it’s so well known.
Sidh, I like your “mega-wats”! Nice play on words, with a ‘power’ resonance.
Plus ca change …
Does this imply that…
* there was more freedom of speech in Burma in 1976 than now?
* there was more freedom of speech in Burma in 1976 than in Thailand?
You’ve been warned!
Charles F., are you one of those people who believed that the all computer would die at year 2000? LOL
Thanks MongerSEA that’s the right explaination of what exactly happened to the website.