Sidh obviously hasn’t got an MBA. Comparing the value of a less than A$700,000 house in suburban Australia and US$30 billion in land and building assets, mostly in Bangkok, makes no sense at all. Having land and property assets in Thailand is highly significant in making money and in access to other resources.
I don’t think anyone has ever claimed that the crown prince was an Einstein. I could be wrong. Was always amused that a 4th rate university in Western Australia gave him an honorary degree.
Hey, Yannawa, I wonder how things would be if you and I switched lives. You’d get some peace and quiet, and I’d get a taste of what you’re going through.
I felt nervous clicking the link as I live in Narathiwat, but I couldn’t help myself!
This is an argument that Duncan McCargo deals with in his book Tearing Apart the Land. (He’s referenced in the paper, which I was glad to see. That book has given me a lot to think about.) I haven’t read through the paper except to see if McCargo was referenced. However, I’m intrigued by the fact that they immediately call out large Islamic schools. I work at one, you see. It surprised me, as I always imagined little kampong pondoks recruiting idle hands. (Possibly, this is the influence of office gossip, which also places teen drug use at 80%.)
But then I thought about it. Other than a few of the Arabic teachers, I don’t really know any of the religion folks. They keep to themselves. (At the very least, they don’t interact with my clique.)
Makes me a little more introspective about exhorting my students to use silat against interlopers in the computer lab…
Thorn: Well, Princess Bajarakitiyabha actually also got an undergraduate law degree from Thammasat with “second” class honours. This degree, I think, is more associated with her than her pol.sci degree from Sukhothai Thammatirat.
Students at Thammasat Law Faculty very, very rarely get the First Class honor degree. The course there is very tough. Second class honor is usually considered equivalant to, if not more than, First Class honor in other Faculties. That the Princess received Second Class honor was – shall we say – quite “exceptional” indeed.
People, people before we get too overexcited about HMK’s riches and getting ideas on how it should be ‘properly invested’, let’s not forget that a huge majority of that wealth is in real estate:
http://www.forbes.com/global/2008/0901/032.html
“Aviruth says that, in all, the bureau owns 3,493 acres in central Bangkok. Today that land is worth $31 billion, based on land values compiled by a Bangkok consulting firm…”
Any homeowner in Australia will understand what it means to be ‘assets rich but cash poor’ (with house prices in Oz capital cities rising between 200-300% between 1998-2008).
From the same article above, Paul Handley stated that the Crown Property Bureau “… still has a below-market-rent mentality for long-term stability goals,” he says. “Or, look at it this way: They have no rate-of-return goals on some of their real estate, limited goals on others and nearly commercial on others.”
A practice of ‘Sufficiency Economy’ at the large scale perhaps? Forbes noted a USD5billion decine in HMK’s fortune from 2008’s USD35billion. This translates to a ~14.3% decrease – compared to Vichai N’s #2 Singaporean (Temasek’s I assume, the regional benchmark) 45% loss.
As Nganadeeleg stated in #17, I favor a more transparent management and disclosure of CBP – but let’s try to be a bit more objective here…
Ty#18, sad but true. If viewed from the economic development point of view, Thailand seem to provide an ideal example of how democracy stunts economic growth relative to the other ASEAN Democratic model of Singapore. Naturally other ASEAN countries find that model attractive including PMThaksin – unfortunately with the intensified and broadened corruption. So here we got a Singaporean Democratic model with a Thai (corruption) twist applied enthusiastically in Myanmar and Cambodia at least!
Thanks for the clarification Nich.
And please do continue to pose the very difficult questions to any major players, commentators on Thai and Southeast Asian politics and development on all sides. It is much needed (well, come to think of it, it is needed everywhere – even in Oz). If they get angry and defensive, we know that there’s a hidden agenda worth probing further…
Hey Nudi, you can’t only blame Thai universities. Don’t you know that those Thai elites also get the honour degree from many prestigious universities in US or UK.
To Nicka and Srithanonchai – thanks for the additional information/observations about blue shirt organization and Department of Provincial Administration (DOPA) project. The blue billboards are obviously only one part of a major blue iceberg – how far it goes up is a subject for speculation (or triangulation). However, regardless of the interminable projects of these powerful and pervasive state agencies , red-shirt symathizers in local government have their own ways of resisting the symbolic onslaught, whether one sympathises with their cause or not.
Thanks, Andrew, for the quick response and additional info. I wonder whether anyone in the audience was won over to the government’s way of thinking. Or maybe the objective was merely to cast doubt on Thaksin’s version of things. It would be great if you could post audio or video of the talk (with Q&A) for those of us who couldn’t attend.
Sidh S, it’s interesting that Thailand still aspires to ASEAN leadership, esp after that debacle in Pattaya. If there’s a message for Thailand’s poorer neighbors from that sorry episode, it’s that democracy is too messy, better stick with one-party rule.
Well, Princess Bajarakitiyabha actually also got an undergraduate law degree from Thammasat with “second” class honours. This degree, I think, is more associated with her than her pol.sci degree from Sukhothai Thammatirat.
In fact, I don’t need to add to Nick’s observation concerning UDD members’ position towards the monarchy. However, the Bangkok Post of today (June 24) carried an article on the new pro-UDD “D-Magazine.” It contained a pertinent quote by the editor of this new journal:
“Mr Wat said his group was not against either the Sangha or the monarchy. ‘We only want to have freedom in criticising those who weaken the democratic institutions,’ he said. ‘As long as the monarchy and Sangha are constitutional, they are respected.'”
Imagine this statement made by a PAD member? Speaking of different conceptions of the monarchy and/or this particular king (devotion, worshipping, revering, love, loyalty, constitutional approval, critical distance) …
One addition to the post itself:
The project Marc Askew describes seems to be located at the ministerial level. However, its Department of Provincial Administration (DOPA) has a project with a similar orientation, poetically called “Stringing/weaving together the hearts of 63 million Thais to protect the foundational institutions of the nation” (roi jai thai 63 lan jai pokpong sathaban lak khong chat). It is laid down in an instruction to the provincial governors (“most urgent” letter thi motho 0310.3/wo 6807, dated April 27, 2009; it can be downloaded from the web site http://www.dopa.go.th).
The letter says that presently there are divisions in society, and it lacks unity. Sometimes, this had a negative impact on the nations’ important institutions, and this severely impacts on national stability. The people lack love and unity. They are divided into different camps. Therefore, there needs to be a campaign to make the people realize the resultant problems and join in protecting especially the institution of the monarchy, which is the center of tranquility, peace, and love and unity amongst the nation’s people.
The project has three strategies:
1) Promote activities to enhance the king’s prestige.
2) Enhance the effects of royal projects.
3) Cultivate the building of consciousness about loyalty.
All this is designed to serve the strengthening of the institutions of Nation, Religion, and Monarchy.
The accompanying project description gives the duration of the project as April 2009 to September 2011. The budget is to be taken from the provinces and districts, and requested from local authorities.
According to the Key Performance Indicator (KPI) sheets, there should be at least 86 activities during 2009. This is supposed to be increased to 100 and 120 in 2010, and 2011, respectively. Each activity should be advertised at least three times.
Projects could include those that promote a democratic way of life, support culture and customs, encourage sports and recreation, and protect national resources and the environment, etc.
In how far such projects serve the stated strategies, and how 86, 100, or 120 activities all over the country and per year can reach the great majority of all 63 million Thais remains the secret of the authors of this instruction. Also, note that there is no special budget for these activities. This means that money has to be taken away from existing expenditure plans. Add to this the usual problems of implementation (just imagine how enthusiastic the provincial governors and chief district officers will be about having another such nonsensical project to organize, and how willing clueless subordinates will follow their orders), and the entire project is reduced to not much more than words and bureaucracy. If this is all the ministry of the interior can do to instill “Nation, Religion, and Monarchy” amongst the Thai people, then it clearly is not much.
I appreciate your questions and feel like they should be considered seriously.
I just wanted to clarify that nowhere have I called for a “ban” on Prime Minister Abhisit addressing foreign University audiences. In fact, I would welcome the chance to hear him speak in Canberra (or Sydney, Melbourne, Albury…wherever). Anybody who was at last week’s talk by Professor Suchit (including the numerous Embassy representatives) will know that Andrew and I are prepared to ask polite, but difficult, questions of senior Thai officials. They may not want to answer the questions — that is their prerogative.
All I suggest is that “he (or Suchit, or Sondhi, or whoever) shouldn’t expect an uncritical welcome”. Thaksin, frankly, falls into the same category: it just so happens that he is no longer in-charge.
Thanks Nich for keeping us informed.
This begs the question – where are the RED ELITE and the Red foot soldiers? The circumstances that led to Da’s arrest was intertwined with pro-Thaksin protest agendas.
If her “friends”, “allies”, “bosses” won’t stand up for her in Thailand – it is up to her lawyers and the judges. It is a simple technicality of the law in this case and she’ll likely get her due punishment according to the law.
The issue for NM is:
– Is it what Susie Wong #1 claimed that Da’s view is what “the majority of people in Thailand feel”? I actually doubt it – the majority of Thai’s, I suspect, care less. It is quite likely that they think that she dangerously flirted with an existing law and paid for it. Even her fearless, vocal Reds comrades seem to see her as a liability to the cause. Life simply goes on without Da.
– In fact, her ‘true’ friends/allies are the many foreigners in NM. They can be vocal and call on respected universities worldwide to ban PMAbhisit (and here one wonders why a similar treatment is not called for PMThaksin , a true human rights abuser, in his heyday???). Should NM call on the Australian government to intervene as they did for Annice Smoel who got in trouble with the Thai law for stealing a bar mat in Phuket?
The likelihood is Da is not important for the Thais as she really isn’t for the Western middle-class, academic comfort of NM. For NM, she is merely another ‘tool’ to get at Thailand’s monarchy as for the Red Elite, she is merely a ‘tool’ to get PMThaksin’s money back. I don’t have sympathies for what she did but I have sympathies for the way she has been used…
This is one main reason why Thailand is not forging ahead; it’s because more able Thais like Dar Torpedo are not allowed to take part in efforts to carry Thailand forward.
I also recall that King George VI of Great Britain had a mediocre record as a naval student at the Naval Academy, and that whenever he visited his alma mater, he would have his record read to the student body and join in the laughter that followed. That to me was a noble deed!
The phenomenon of first-class honors tendered to high-ranking members of the royal family is simply a tradition of fawning observed by Thai universities of late. It is something that does nothing but lower the dignity of both the royal family and the universities. To some extent this also applies to honorary degrees, which have been distributed in such abundance that they become worthless. The whole thing is very much a farce, which is an apt description of what the Kingdom of Thailand is!
Da Torpedo received Masters of Art in Literature from Thammasart University. Listening to her talk on Thai political history, available on YouTube, I am impressed with her analytical skills and detailed knowledge of Siam political history from 1932 to present period. No wonder she rose up to be one of the earlier leader of the Red Movement. In developed country context, she would have become either a professor or a senator, and a role model for grassroots women. In Thailand context, Phumipon’s lese majeste law put her in jail simply because she spoke her conscience and truth which reflect what majority of people in Thailand feel. Da Torpedo has devoted herself for public service by demanding progress, liberty, and equality for people in Thailand. Brainy and passionate person like Da Torpedo should lead the country instead of being put…in jail.
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King Bhumibol’s billions
Sidh obviously hasn’t got an MBA. Comparing the value of a less than A$700,000 house in suburban Australia and US$30 billion in land and building assets, mostly in Bangkok, makes no sense at all. Having land and property assets in Thailand is highly significant in making money and in access to other resources.
Royal news, graduations and honours
I don’t think anyone has ever claimed that the crown prince was an Einstein. I could be wrong. Was always amused that a 4th rate university in Western Australia gave him an honorary degree.
Lunch?
Hey, Yannawa, I wonder how things would be if you and I switched lives. You’d get some peace and quiet, and I’d get a taste of what you’re going through.
ICG on Thailand’s deep south
I felt nervous clicking the link as I live in Narathiwat, but I couldn’t help myself!
This is an argument that Duncan McCargo deals with in his book Tearing Apart the Land. (He’s referenced in the paper, which I was glad to see. That book has given me a lot to think about.) I haven’t read through the paper except to see if McCargo was referenced. However, I’m intrigued by the fact that they immediately call out large Islamic schools. I work at one, you see. It surprised me, as I always imagined little kampong pondoks recruiting idle hands. (Possibly, this is the influence of office gossip, which also places teen drug use at 80%.)
But then I thought about it. Other than a few of the Arabic teachers, I don’t really know any of the religion folks. They keep to themselves. (At the very least, they don’t interact with my clique.)
Makes me a little more introspective about exhorting my students to use silat against interlopers in the computer lab…
Royal news, graduations and honours
Thorn:
Well, Princess Bajarakitiyabha actually also got an undergraduate law degree from Thammasat with “second” class honours. This degree, I think, is more associated with her than her pol.sci degree from Sukhothai Thammatirat.
Students at Thammasat Law Faculty very, very rarely get the First Class honor degree. The course there is very tough. Second class honor is usually considered equivalant to, if not more than, First Class honor in other Faculties. That the Princess received Second Class honor was – shall we say – quite “exceptional” indeed.
Signs of the Thai state
interesting piece by Kh. Pluem on AS today :
Is Iran More Democratic Than Thailand?
it appears his conclusion is that Iran is actually more Democratic than Thailand. there are many curios questions he raised in it.
King Bhumibol’s billions
People, people before we get too overexcited about HMK’s riches and getting ideas on how it should be ‘properly invested’, let’s not forget that a huge majority of that wealth is in real estate:
http://www.forbes.com/global/2008/0901/032.html
“Aviruth says that, in all, the bureau owns 3,493 acres in central Bangkok. Today that land is worth $31 billion, based on land values compiled by a Bangkok consulting firm…”
Any homeowner in Australia will understand what it means to be ‘assets rich but cash poor’ (with house prices in Oz capital cities rising between 200-300% between 1998-2008).
From the same article above, Paul Handley stated that the Crown Property Bureau “… still has a below-market-rent mentality for long-term stability goals,” he says. “Or, look at it this way: They have no rate-of-return goals on some of their real estate, limited goals on others and nearly commercial on others.”
A practice of ‘Sufficiency Economy’ at the large scale perhaps? Forbes noted a USD5billion decine in HMK’s fortune from 2008’s USD35billion. This translates to a ~14.3% decrease – compared to Vichai N’s #2 Singaporean (Temasek’s I assume, the regional benchmark) 45% loss.
As Nganadeeleg stated in #17, I favor a more transparent management and disclosure of CBP – but let’s try to be a bit more objective here…
Promoting Abhisit’s reform agenda
Ty#18, sad but true. If viewed from the economic development point of view, Thailand seem to provide an ideal example of how democracy stunts economic growth relative to the other ASEAN Democratic model of Singapore. Naturally other ASEAN countries find that model attractive including PMThaksin – unfortunately with the intensified and broadened corruption. So here we got a Singaporean Democratic model with a Thai (corruption) twist applied enthusiastically in Myanmar and Cambodia at least!
The injustice of a closed trial
Thanks for the clarification Nich.
And please do continue to pose the very difficult questions to any major players, commentators on Thai and Southeast Asian politics and development on all sides. It is much needed (well, come to think of it, it is needed everywhere – even in Oz). If they get angry and defensive, we know that there’s a hidden agenda worth probing further…
Royal news, graduations and honours
Hey Nudi, you can’t only blame Thai universities. Don’t you know that those Thai elites also get the honour degree from many prestigious universities in US or UK.
Signs of the Thai state
To Nicka and Srithanonchai – thanks for the additional information/observations about blue shirt organization and Department of Provincial Administration (DOPA) project. The blue billboards are obviously only one part of a major blue iceberg – how far it goes up is a subject for speculation (or triangulation). However, regardless of the interminable projects of these powerful and pervasive state agencies , red-shirt symathizers in local government have their own ways of resisting the symbolic onslaught, whether one sympathises with their cause or not.
Promoting Abhisit’s reform agenda
Thanks, Andrew, for the quick response and additional info. I wonder whether anyone in the audience was won over to the government’s way of thinking. Or maybe the objective was merely to cast doubt on Thaksin’s version of things. It would be great if you could post audio or video of the talk (with Q&A) for those of us who couldn’t attend.
Sidh S, it’s interesting that Thailand still aspires to ASEAN leadership, esp after that debacle in Pattaya. If there’s a message for Thailand’s poorer neighbors from that sorry episode, it’s that democracy is too messy, better stick with one-party rule.
Royal news, graduations and honours
Well, Princess Bajarakitiyabha actually also got an undergraduate law degree from Thammasat with “second” class honours. This degree, I think, is more associated with her than her pol.sci degree from Sukhothai Thammatirat.
Signs of the Thai state
In fact, I don’t need to add to Nick’s observation concerning UDD members’ position towards the monarchy. However, the Bangkok Post of today (June 24) carried an article on the new pro-UDD “D-Magazine.” It contained a pertinent quote by the editor of this new journal:
“Mr Wat said his group was not against either the Sangha or the monarchy. ‘We only want to have freedom in criticising those who weaken the democratic institutions,’ he said. ‘As long as the monarchy and Sangha are constitutional, they are respected.'”
Imagine this statement made by a PAD member? Speaking of different conceptions of the monarchy and/or this particular king (devotion, worshipping, revering, love, loyalty, constitutional approval, critical distance) …
One addition to the post itself:
The project Marc Askew describes seems to be located at the ministerial level. However, its Department of Provincial Administration (DOPA) has a project with a similar orientation, poetically called “Stringing/weaving together the hearts of 63 million Thais to protect the foundational institutions of the nation” (roi jai thai 63 lan jai pokpong sathaban lak khong chat). It is laid down in an instruction to the provincial governors (“most urgent” letter thi motho 0310.3/wo 6807, dated April 27, 2009; it can be downloaded from the web site http://www.dopa.go.th).
The letter says that presently there are divisions in society, and it lacks unity. Sometimes, this had a negative impact on the nations’ important institutions, and this severely impacts on national stability. The people lack love and unity. They are divided into different camps. Therefore, there needs to be a campaign to make the people realize the resultant problems and join in protecting especially the institution of the monarchy, which is the center of tranquility, peace, and love and unity amongst the nation’s people.
The project has three strategies:
1) Promote activities to enhance the king’s prestige.
2) Enhance the effects of royal projects.
3) Cultivate the building of consciousness about loyalty.
All this is designed to serve the strengthening of the institutions of Nation, Religion, and Monarchy.
The accompanying project description gives the duration of the project as April 2009 to September 2011. The budget is to be taken from the provinces and districts, and requested from local authorities.
According to the Key Performance Indicator (KPI) sheets, there should be at least 86 activities during 2009. This is supposed to be increased to 100 and 120 in 2010, and 2011, respectively. Each activity should be advertised at least three times.
Projects could include those that promote a democratic way of life, support culture and customs, encourage sports and recreation, and protect national resources and the environment, etc.
In how far such projects serve the stated strategies, and how 86, 100, or 120 activities all over the country and per year can reach the great majority of all 63 million Thais remains the secret of the authors of this instruction. Also, note that there is no special budget for these activities. This means that money has to be taken away from existing expenditure plans. Add to this the usual problems of implementation (just imagine how enthusiastic the provincial governors and chief district officers will be about having another such nonsensical project to organize, and how willing clueless subordinates will follow their orders), and the entire project is reduced to not much more than words and bureaucracy. If this is all the ministry of the interior can do to instill “Nation, Religion, and Monarchy” amongst the Thai people, then it clearly is not much.
The injustice of a closed trial
Sidh,
I appreciate your questions and feel like they should be considered seriously.
I just wanted to clarify that nowhere have I called for a “ban” on Prime Minister Abhisit addressing foreign University audiences. In fact, I would welcome the chance to hear him speak in Canberra (or Sydney, Melbourne, Albury…wherever). Anybody who was at last week’s talk by Professor Suchit (including the numerous Embassy representatives) will know that Andrew and I are prepared to ask polite, but difficult, questions of senior Thai officials. They may not want to answer the questions — that is their prerogative.
All I suggest is that “he (or Suchit, or Sondhi, or whoever) shouldn’t expect an uncritical welcome”. Thaksin, frankly, falls into the same category: it just so happens that he is no longer in-charge.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
The injustice of a closed trial
Thanks Nich for keeping us informed.
This begs the question – where are the RED ELITE and the Red foot soldiers? The circumstances that led to Da’s arrest was intertwined with pro-Thaksin protest agendas.
If her “friends”, “allies”, “bosses” won’t stand up for her in Thailand – it is up to her lawyers and the judges. It is a simple technicality of the law in this case and she’ll likely get her due punishment according to the law.
The issue for NM is:
– Is it what Susie Wong #1 claimed that Da’s view is what “the majority of people in Thailand feel”? I actually doubt it – the majority of Thai’s, I suspect, care less. It is quite likely that they think that she dangerously flirted with an existing law and paid for it. Even her fearless, vocal Reds comrades seem to see her as a liability to the cause. Life simply goes on without Da.
– In fact, her ‘true’ friends/allies are the many foreigners in NM. They can be vocal and call on respected universities worldwide to ban PMAbhisit (and here one wonders why a similar treatment is not called for PMThaksin , a true human rights abuser, in his heyday???). Should NM call on the Australian government to intervene as they did for Annice Smoel who got in trouble with the Thai law for stealing a bar mat in Phuket?
The likelihood is Da is not important for the Thais as she really isn’t for the Western middle-class, academic comfort of NM. For NM, she is merely another ‘tool’ to get at Thailand’s monarchy as for the Red Elite, she is merely a ‘tool’ to get PMThaksin’s money back. I don’t have sympathies for what she did but I have sympathies for the way she has been used…
The injustice of a closed trial
This is one main reason why Thailand is not forging ahead; it’s because more able Thais like Dar Torpedo are not allowed to take part in efforts to carry Thailand forward.
King Bhumibol’s billions
Ralph Kramden: Thanks for pointing out the thing about Amarin. It’s putting your loyalty where it counts!
Royal news, graduations and honours
I also recall that King George VI of Great Britain had a mediocre record as a naval student at the Naval Academy, and that whenever he visited his alma mater, he would have his record read to the student body and join in the laughter that followed. That to me was a noble deed!
The phenomenon of first-class honors tendered to high-ranking members of the royal family is simply a tradition of fawning observed by Thai universities of late. It is something that does nothing but lower the dignity of both the royal family and the universities. To some extent this also applies to honorary degrees, which have been distributed in such abundance that they become worthless. The whole thing is very much a farce, which is an apt description of what the Kingdom of Thailand is!
The injustice of a closed trial
Da Torpedo received Masters of Art in Literature from Thammasart University. Listening to her talk on Thai political history, available on YouTube, I am impressed with her analytical skills and detailed knowledge of Siam political history from 1932 to present period. No wonder she rose up to be one of the earlier leader of the Red Movement. In developed country context, she would have become either a professor or a senator, and a role model for grassroots women. In Thailand context, Phumipon’s lese majeste law put her in jail simply because she spoke her conscience and truth which reflect what majority of people in Thailand feel. Da Torpedo has devoted herself for public service by demanding progress, liberty, and equality for people in Thailand. Brainy and passionate person like Da Torpedo should lead the country instead of being put…in jail.