Indeed, it is not that easy to see that PAD wants to “move beyond.” Anyway, this might be a matter of linguistics. Starting with a radical (and radically simplistic as well as moralistic) condemnation of conventional politics and politicians, and then trying to overcome this (partly realistic, partly self-created) image by reference to a thick soup of Buddhism and Monarchism, might seem reactionary (or, as Chang Noi had previously stated, “anti-democratic”), but, in English, this might still pass for “move beyond.” Anyway, I would have preferred “move back” for the PAD. However, I am not sure whether the UDD could be seen as “moving forward,” given its close connection with the “old politics” so viciously attacked by the PAD. Finally, ASTV might have been novel at one time. These days, however, it is just a propaganda tool. Anyone who has once read Nazi and communist propaganda material will have a good deja vu reading ASTV Phuchatkan newspaper.
Might you be just a little harsh on an opinion piece published in THE NATION?
I thought is was quite a good summary piece, but would also be very interested to hear more about your ‘central pillar’ theory, and especially how it applies to the type of politicians and local lords prevalent in Thailand.
Chang Noi:
(readers please notice my emphases with bold types font)
Of course, in the background is Thaksin’s money and ambition on one side, and military power and meddling on the other.
But this should not be allowed to obscure what these movements stand for.
Thai politics is often criticised for being dominated by small, self-serving cliques of businessmen and generals. Both these movements want to move beyond.
Their main enemy is not each other, but the old, old politics desperate to resist this challenge.
I really, really, really wish that Chang Noi be honest with himself and his readers.
Chang Noi knows very well that “in the background…on the other hand” (in fact, not even so much “in the background” these past few years) is definitely not just “military power and meddling”.
The result of this deliberately, and dishonestly “Missing Factor” in his portrait is: Chang Noi himself “obscure[s] what these movements stand for”
Thus when he write: that the PAD (one side of his portrait) “challenge[s]” “old, old politics” and “want[s] to move beyond” it, I seriously ask:
Did Chang Noi fall asleep the whole 3 years that PAD called for, and indeed achieved the maintainance and enhancement of the POWER OF THE MONARCHY, the one most important CENTRAL PILLAR of the “old, old politics”? When does the PAD show even the slightest sign of wanting to “move beyond” THIS power?
Or Chang Noi simply is dishonest?
Let’s me re-iterate this in the strongest terms: I think when academic like Chang Noi writes such a piece, knowing full well what’s missing, it’s intellectual dishonesty that should be condemned.
Tettyan: I was actually referring to a future manipulation & whitewash, but since you bring up the past, can I ask you whether you were fully satisfied with the processes during Thaksin’s rule, and in particular regarding the conduct of the drug war, the southern insurgency situation, the investigations into those matters, the favorable rulings by tax revenue officials and numerous other government deals which were favorable to Shin interests?
Somsak J: “How about their stolen rights, the rights to have leader of the country of their own choosing….”
Nganadeeleg: “Do those rights extend to allowing that chosen leader to manipulate (by whatever means) the outcomes of any legitimate cases against him?”
So in summary, do you think going back to (or continuing) a corrupt style of administration is a way for Thailand to move forward?
Thai people love, respect and trust Jakrapob Penkair, that’s why he rises up to the rank of leader. No country can be developed if she continues to destroy her best sons.
Portman still claims that no live rounds were used – except on one bus (?) – and earlier said: “Can you share with us your photos of the bullet holes and the copper clad full metal jacket rounds being loaded?”
There is now such evidence and it is widely available.
“Actually the army did not say they only used fake ammunition. If you look back at their statements, they said they used blanks and practice rounds.”
Do those rights extend to allowing that chosen leader to manipulate (by whatever means) the outcomes of any legitimate cases against him?
What evidence do you have that he manipulated any cases? I’m no Thaksin fan, and I think there’s plenty he got away with, but injustice is endemic in Thailand, and the rich and the powerful, long before Thaksin was even born, were able to get away with the law.
So justice in Thailand shows favourtism toward those with the means, but that doesn’t mean that there were TRT apparatchiks pulling strings behind the scenes – the justice system does have some autonomy. How else could you explain how the infamous Kamnan Poh, whose son was a minister in Thaksin’s government at the time, was finally found guilty of a crime back when Thaksin was in power – after years of evading justice? How about the administrative court’s ruling that blocked Thaksin’s proposed privatization of EGAT (a longstanding pet project of his) – before the PAD was even formed? How about his defamation suit against Thai Post that was thrown out by the courts? Or that his political opponents, once they had power, still had trouble pushing cases against him because they ignored the obvious cases like the war on drugs and only went for a few flimsy corruption cases?
Unless you come up with some proof, your statement is little more than a gross exaggeration.
“Shockingly, some exiled Burmese political and lobby organizations are actively campaigning against further donor funding for the delta, based on very poor knowledge of the situation on the ground,” said Richard Horsey, former senior adviser on Burma to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. “Aid money is drying up.”
Reports by exile groups about the military forcibly conscripting children orphaned by the storm are politically loaded and wrong, said the U.N. program director, whose portfolio includes child-labor issues. “There’s been absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever,” the official said. “If it had happened, I would know.”
From the New York Times link in the post and seemingly a reference to the Johns Hopkins report. Interesting to see that while the initial criticism came from NGOs, the UN is also very vocal in its opposition (at least in this NYT article).
You can criticise the TCG, it does have its faults, or at least problems, but you can’t deny it has helped to facilitate a significant, and previously inconceivable, amount of aid dollars for Myanmar post-Nargis. We saw last week the US State Department came out and praised the partnership. I believe the real test of the TCG’s value will be the next 12 months though.
and I agree that education for all is very important
education and health are the highest priority, all other issues flow from these… and defence is very low in my list of priorities… the defence budget should be cannibalised in favour of education and health services … Cuba and the South American countries emerging from elite domination, correctly in my view, are implementing free universal education and health care
but I believe the linkage between democracy and education, should be democracy first, because that is the basis for strong emphasis on education and fair distribution to all levels of society
people do not need education to understand whether they are oppressed or not! they do not need education to judge people’s intentions for good or ill!
claims that uneducated people need education to be able to vote is yet another excuse not a reason for delaying implementation of democracy!
Antipadhist, whilst I think Portman is being somewhat
“uncompromising” with much of what he says (which is his right to be), I do think, he makes a very valid point about the friends and loved ones not queuing up, to ask “where the bodies are” – I believe, you have been too quick to dismiss his comment on this.
You often use the term MSM, to imply the Mass Media.
Perhaps the Mass Media are “in league” with the government and the military and are ignoring these “lines”.
But, I find it hard to believe, the same about the many blogs/forums and other web venues, covering Thailand- both those hosted IN Thailand and OUTSIDE, as well.
Admittedly, as I do not read Thai, I have little knowledge of the chatter on Thai language forums.
However,I would supsect, there is much being said on the Red/UDD supporting sites, fanning the flames – with some “evidence” being sited, by those associated with the “missing”.
But, if there was something “real” in this chatter, I am sure, by now, it would be on “academic/objective English language forums such as this one, Bangkok Pundit and even, some of the more openely “critical” sites, such as, Thai Crisis and Thailand Jumped The Shark – with some evidence of these people asking, “where is my husband” and so on.
The internet has made it almost impossible, to do such a “mass” cover up, for more than a couple of days.
Not everyone is going to “keep quiet”.
You raise some fair points. I suspect that a referendum on the broader royal family/monarchy would also receive overwhelming support today, as the institution is likely to be closely linked in people’s minds with the reigning monarch. But, if there were a fair means of guaging public opinion on individual members of the royal family, they might not all fare equally well and there might some outlying scores in either direction.
Actually, I am in favour of public discussion of the monarchy and feel that constructive criticism would help the royal family prepare for transition and succession, as it helps the British royals keep abreast of public perception of their role, whereas the current application of LM laws as a political tool mainly damage the institution. I am also in favour of any party or movement that prioritises radical reform and improvement of education, particularly upcountry where it is worst (and healthcare as a second priority). I believe, perhaps somewhat naively, that better education and access to information is the key to Thailand’s future social, political and economic development, even though some have unkindly suggested in NM that better education hasn’t helped city dwellers make the “right” choices in their opinion. Better educated Thais will eventually have a more mature view of the world in which there will be less room for semi divine figures on either side of the red/yellow divide or for that matter for corrupt politicians, politically active soldiers, or gangster policemen.
In my experience, poorly educated rural people appreciate highly the value of the education they never had and are always quick to seize on educational opportunities for their children. Thaksin played around the edges of education with his lottery funded scheme, a good start even though poorly thought out and implemented, and Abhisit and the Democrats have for a long time talked about prioritising education. Let’s see if any one can deliver. It is a tough call, particularly in these difficult economic times, because the percentage budget allocation to education (and healthcare) is pitiful compared to developed countries and changing this will require a major shift in fiscal thinking and the willingness to cut less important budgetary areas as well as raise the total tax rate. But until this nettle is grasped I believe that Thailand’s social, political and economic development will continue to stagnate and Thailand will remain uncompetitive in a world where its cheap labour advantage was surpassed in the early 90s.
the bodies are certainly “not in hospitals” (morgues) – it is true.
the question is – why. because of very well pre-planned and carried out cover up for the facts, right at the moment of those bodies being dropped on the ground by LIVE bullets.
sure, it is perhaps the BIGGEST failure of UDD to ensure that these evidences do not dissapear.
but as I know – there is a Parliamentary investigation going on already. till it is done (if ever at all) – you can’t claim either that these are merely untrue allegations.
“queues of relatives looking for missed loved ones” – there are such, and they are NOT talking to Thai MSM due to obvious reason – BIAS ! they talk though to PT MPs.
yes, there is a great dissapointment – first of all for SHAMELESS Media BIAS ! and for people like you still continuing DEMONIZING those who fought for their rights and liberties.
you have raised an interesting issue…
“I think that an overwhelming majority of Thai people would support the king wholeheartedly, if ever there were such a referendum. Does that mean that disparaging the king and his achievements, as the majority of posters on New Mandala are so happy to do, is also tantamount to disparaging the Thai people overall?”
I think your first sentence would likely be true because you specify the King rather than royalty or the monarchy.
There are two aspects to your second sentence. As to the first, I think we do need to be careful when being critical of the King to be very specific and recognise that many Thais may either not be aware of the details of some historical events and even if they are they would prefer that the King be allowed to fade gracefully.
The second aspect is the broader question of the royal family/monarchy that perhaps you were careful to avoid. I think most New Mandala commenters would be thinking of this broader question. I suggest that the results of a referendum on the royalty/monarchy in Thailand would depend on timing. Basically Thai people have long had a poor opinion of the Prince and the reputation of the Queen has declined steeply with many privately known stories now emerging in public, her overt support for the PAD and now stories regarding her military supporters.
The reputation of the monarchy continues to be held up by Princess Sirindorn and some lesser diligent royals.
There has been no such referendum, the privy council and the military have done their best to support the image of the monarchy but I think most Thais are now recognising that the combination represents repression of the people and stifling of political development.
hmmmm I am making broad rather than specific allegation but I will be happy if you wish to discuss specifics.
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Aid and politics after Cyclone Nargis
read the scribd
http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/a-diary-of-the-cyclone-nargis-2008-090502-draft/
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
Indeed, it is not that easy to see that PAD wants to “move beyond.” Anyway, this might be a matter of linguistics. Starting with a radical (and radically simplistic as well as moralistic) condemnation of conventional politics and politicians, and then trying to overcome this (partly realistic, partly self-created) image by reference to a thick soup of Buddhism and Monarchism, might seem reactionary (or, as Chang Noi had previously stated, “anti-democratic”), but, in English, this might still pass for “move beyond.” Anyway, I would have preferred “move back” for the PAD. However, I am not sure whether the UDD could be seen as “moving forward,” given its close connection with the “old politics” so viciously attacked by the PAD. Finally, ASTV might have been novel at one time. These days, however, it is just a propaganda tool. Anyone who has once read Nazi and communist propaganda material will have a good deja vu reading ASTV Phuchatkan newspaper.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Ha! First episode of Kasit’s “Information Avalanche” to set the peasants straight, eh? ISOC’s “rural project” off to a fine start!
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
A far better analysis on the situation than many recent posts.
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
Might you be just a little harsh on an opinion piece published in THE NATION?
I thought is was quite a good summary piece, but would also be very interested to hear more about your ‘central pillar’ theory, and especially how it applies to the type of politicians and local lords prevalent in Thailand.
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
The menstrual blood of virgins is powerful stuff. Helps repel bullets. Don’t disrespect Sondhi’s magic.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Jim thanks
great
a. to see a report from the field
b. and that the people are not inimidated
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
Chang Noi:
(readers please notice my emphases with bold types font)
Of course, in the background is Thaksin’s money and ambition on one side, and military power and meddling on the other.
But this should not be allowed to obscure what these movements stand for.
Thai politics is often criticised for being dominated by small, self-serving cliques of businessmen and generals. Both these movements want to move beyond.
Their main enemy is not each other, but the old, old politics desperate to resist this challenge.
I really, really, really wish that Chang Noi be honest with himself and his readers.
Chang Noi knows very well that “in the background…on the other hand” (in fact, not even so much “in the background” these past few years) is definitely not just “military power and meddling”.
The result of this deliberately, and dishonestly “Missing Factor” in his portrait is: Chang Noi himself “obscure[s] what these movements stand for”
Thus when he write: that the PAD (one side of his portrait) “challenge[s]” “old, old politics” and “want[s] to move beyond” it, I seriously ask:
Did Chang Noi fall asleep the whole 3 years that PAD called for, and indeed achieved the maintainance and enhancement of the POWER OF THE MONARCHY, the one most important CENTRAL PILLAR of the “old, old politics”? When does the PAD show even the slightest sign of wanting to “move beyond” THIS power?
Or Chang Noi simply is dishonest?
Let’s me re-iterate this in the strongest terms: I think when academic like Chang Noi writes such a piece, knowing full well what’s missing, it’s intellectual dishonesty that should be condemned.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Tettyan: I was actually referring to a future manipulation & whitewash, but since you bring up the past, can I ask you whether you were fully satisfied with the processes during Thaksin’s rule, and in particular regarding the conduct of the drug war, the southern insurgency situation, the investigations into those matters, the favorable rulings by tax revenue officials and numerous other government deals which were favorable to Shin interests?
Somsak J: “How about their stolen rights, the rights to have leader of the country of their own choosing….”
Nganadeeleg: “Do those rights extend to allowing that chosen leader to manipulate (by whatever means) the outcomes of any legitimate cases against him?”
So in summary, do you think going back to (or continuing) a corrupt style of administration is a way for Thailand to move forward?
btw, gross exageration is what I’m best at 🙂
“Raid” at the BBC
Thai people love, respect and trust Jakrapob Penkair, that’s why he rises up to the rank of leader. No country can be developed if she continues to destroy her best sons.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Portman still claims that no live rounds were used – except on one bus (?) – and earlier said: “Can you share with us your photos of the bullet holes and the copper clad full metal jacket rounds being loaded?”
There is now such evidence and it is widely available.
“Actually the army did not say they only used fake ammunition. If you look back at their statements, they said they used blanks and practice rounds.”
Well, the army commander no longer says that.
Debt and aid: One year after Nargis
http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/a-diary-of-the-cyclone-nargis-2008-090502-draft/
Debt and aid: One year after Nargis
A Diary of the Cyclone Nargis 2008 090502 Draft
[scribd id=14871555 key=key-1c3th7fngf01id86mauj]
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Do those rights extend to allowing that chosen leader to manipulate (by whatever means) the outcomes of any legitimate cases against him?
What evidence do you have that he manipulated any cases? I’m no Thaksin fan, and I think there’s plenty he got away with, but injustice is endemic in Thailand, and the rich and the powerful, long before Thaksin was even born, were able to get away with the law.
So justice in Thailand shows favourtism toward those with the means, but that doesn’t mean that there were TRT apparatchiks pulling strings behind the scenes – the justice system does have some autonomy. How else could you explain how the infamous Kamnan Poh, whose son was a minister in Thaksin’s government at the time, was finally found guilty of a crime back when Thaksin was in power – after years of evading justice? How about the administrative court’s ruling that blocked Thaksin’s proposed privatization of EGAT (a longstanding pet project of his) – before the PAD was even formed? How about his defamation suit against Thai Post that was thrown out by the courts? Or that his political opponents, once they had power, still had trouble pushing cases against him because they ignored the obvious cases like the war on drugs and only went for a few flimsy corruption cases?
Unless you come up with some proof, your statement is little more than a gross exaggeration.
Aid and politics after Cyclone Nargis
“Shockingly, some exiled Burmese political and lobby organizations are actively campaigning against further donor funding for the delta, based on very poor knowledge of the situation on the ground,” said Richard Horsey, former senior adviser on Burma to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. “Aid money is drying up.”
Reports by exile groups about the military forcibly conscripting children orphaned by the storm are politically loaded and wrong, said the U.N. program director, whose portfolio includes child-labor issues. “There’s been absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever,” the official said. “If it had happened, I would know.”
From the New York Times link in the post and seemingly a reference to the Johns Hopkins report. Interesting to see that while the initial criticism came from NGOs, the UN is also very vocal in its opposition (at least in this NYT article).
You can criticise the TCG, it does have its faults, or at least problems, but you can’t deny it has helped to facilitate a significant, and previously inconceivable, amount of aid dollars for Myanmar post-Nargis. We saw last week the US State Department came out and praised the partnership. I believe the real test of the TCG’s value will be the next 12 months though.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Portman #44
and I agree that education for all is very important
education and health are the highest priority, all other issues flow from these… and defence is very low in my list of priorities… the defence budget should be cannibalised in favour of education and health services … Cuba and the South American countries emerging from elite domination, correctly in my view, are implementing free universal education and health care
but I believe the linkage between democracy and education, should be democracy first, because that is the basis for strong emphasis on education and fair distribution to all levels of society
people do not need education to understand whether they are oppressed or not! they do not need education to judge people’s intentions for good or ill!
claims that uneducated people need education to be able to vote is yet another excuse not a reason for delaying implementation of democracy!
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Antipadhist, whilst I think Portman is being somewhat
“uncompromising” with much of what he says (which is his right to be), I do think, he makes a very valid point about the friends and loved ones not queuing up, to ask “where the bodies are” – I believe, you have been too quick to dismiss his comment on this.
You often use the term MSM, to imply the Mass Media.
Perhaps the Mass Media are “in league” with the government and the military and are ignoring these “lines”.
But, I find it hard to believe, the same about the many blogs/forums and other web venues, covering Thailand- both those hosted IN Thailand and OUTSIDE, as well.
Admittedly, as I do not read Thai, I have little knowledge of the chatter on Thai language forums.
However,I would supsect, there is much being said on the Red/UDD supporting sites, fanning the flames – with some “evidence” being sited, by those associated with the “missing”.
But, if there was something “real” in this chatter, I am sure, by now, it would be on “academic/objective English language forums such as this one, Bangkok Pundit and even, some of the more openely “critical” sites, such as, Thai Crisis and Thailand Jumped The Shark – with some evidence of these people asking, “where is my husband” and so on.
The internet has made it almost impossible, to do such a “mass” cover up, for more than a couple of days.
Not everyone is going to “keep quiet”.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
David Brown #43
You raise some fair points. I suspect that a referendum on the broader royal family/monarchy would also receive overwhelming support today, as the institution is likely to be closely linked in people’s minds with the reigning monarch. But, if there were a fair means of guaging public opinion on individual members of the royal family, they might not all fare equally well and there might some outlying scores in either direction.
Actually, I am in favour of public discussion of the monarchy and feel that constructive criticism would help the royal family prepare for transition and succession, as it helps the British royals keep abreast of public perception of their role, whereas the current application of LM laws as a political tool mainly damage the institution. I am also in favour of any party or movement that prioritises radical reform and improvement of education, particularly upcountry where it is worst (and healthcare as a second priority). I believe, perhaps somewhat naively, that better education and access to information is the key to Thailand’s future social, political and economic development, even though some have unkindly suggested in NM that better education hasn’t helped city dwellers make the “right” choices in their opinion. Better educated Thais will eventually have a more mature view of the world in which there will be less room for semi divine figures on either side of the red/yellow divide or for that matter for corrupt politicians, politically active soldiers, or gangster policemen.
In my experience, poorly educated rural people appreciate highly the value of the education they never had and are always quick to seize on educational opportunities for their children. Thaksin played around the edges of education with his lottery funded scheme, a good start even though poorly thought out and implemented, and Abhisit and the Democrats have for a long time talked about prioritising education. Let’s see if any one can deliver. It is a tough call, particularly in these difficult economic times, because the percentage budget allocation to education (and healthcare) is pitiful compared to developed countries and changing this will require a major shift in fiscal thinking and the willingness to cut less important budgetary areas as well as raise the total tax rate. But until this nettle is grasped I believe that Thailand’s social, political and economic development will continue to stagnate and Thailand will remain uncompetitive in a world where its cheap labour advantage was surpassed in the early 90s.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Portman
the bodies are certainly “not in hospitals” (morgues) – it is true.
the question is – why. because of very well pre-planned and carried out cover up for the facts, right at the moment of those bodies being dropped on the ground by LIVE bullets.
sure, it is perhaps the BIGGEST failure of UDD to ensure that these evidences do not dissapear.
but as I know – there is a Parliamentary investigation going on already. till it is done (if ever at all) – you can’t claim either that these are merely untrue allegations.
“queues of relatives looking for missed loved ones” – there are such, and they are NOT talking to Thai MSM due to obvious reason – BIAS ! they talk though to PT MPs.
yes, there is a great dissapointment – first of all for SHAMELESS Media BIAS ! and for people like you still continuing DEMONIZING those who fought for their rights and liberties.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Portman,
you have raised an interesting issue…
“I think that an overwhelming majority of Thai people would support the king wholeheartedly, if ever there were such a referendum. Does that mean that disparaging the king and his achievements, as the majority of posters on New Mandala are so happy to do, is also tantamount to disparaging the Thai people overall?”
I think your first sentence would likely be true because you specify the King rather than royalty or the monarchy.
There are two aspects to your second sentence. As to the first, I think we do need to be careful when being critical of the King to be very specific and recognise that many Thais may either not be aware of the details of some historical events and even if they are they would prefer that the King be allowed to fade gracefully.
The second aspect is the broader question of the royal family/monarchy that perhaps you were careful to avoid. I think most New Mandala commenters would be thinking of this broader question. I suggest that the results of a referendum on the royalty/monarchy in Thailand would depend on timing. Basically Thai people have long had a poor opinion of the Prince and the reputation of the Queen has declined steeply with many privately known stories now emerging in public, her overt support for the PAD and now stories regarding her military supporters.
The reputation of the monarchy continues to be held up by Princess Sirindorn and some lesser diligent royals.
There has been no such referendum, the privy council and the military have done their best to support the image of the monarchy but I think most Thais are now recognising that the combination represents repression of the people and stifling of political development.
hmmmm I am making broad rather than specific allegation but I will be happy if you wish to discuss specifics.