I just read Somsak’s response to Nganadeeleg’s post above. IMHO, somsak’s line of thought can never amend the rift between the Red and Yellow Faction(and I assume he perhaps see this ( reconciliation/ the attempt to reach out to those who do not share similar political views)as irrelevant coz he seems to be intent on proving that only he himself is right and others who offer alternative views are wrong Nga’s argument, however, is very sensible and I think everyone without bias and too much self-certainly can see that.
Plato:If the Red-shirts haven’t turned to Thaksin, their claim to fight for justice and democracy would be much more credible and they’d have had me on their side. But then again without Thaksin and his enormous wealth to back them up, they would be just drops of water on the floor.
Is it bad to believe that elected representative should be the leader of red-shirted?
Obviously,”Someone that should be above politic” was giving a speech which urge to use constitutional court to get rid off ,what they called Thaksin-pawn-party,Power of people party before this crisis,colored-shirt mobwar, has been going on
I didn’t favor politician like Thaksin.but how do i say myself? In election,i vote for others one or hold my vote.Not by using court to judge the case ”biasly” and ”unfairly” to get rid of political party i dont like
If aphisit want to be democratized,Dissolved the parliament.Getting into election field,and won it,
I,for one,won’t have any complains.Instead of complaining,I will,with whole my heart,cheer and support him fully to be Thailand PM
Pluto: nganadeeleg: I too am disappointed that it is taking so long to move beyond Thaksin – he has served his purpose, and IMO going back to him is a dead end.
How can we move beyond Thaksin when he is so central to the current mess in Thailand?
……
If the Red-shirts haven’t turned to Thaksin, their claim to fight for justice and democracy would be much more credible and they’d have had me on their side. But then again without Thaksin and his enormous wealth to back them up, they would be just drops of water on the floor.
Sometime when I see people write something along this line, I’d really like to vomit. No kidding. It’s so pretenteous, typical of ‘educated middle class’.
I ask: what’s wrong with ordinary people wantting to choose their own leaders? What’s wrong whem they had chosen one, and he was illegally overthrown by a coup? What’s wrong, therefore, when they demand justice by insisting he must be returned to his rightful, legitimate place?
If this is not democracy, then what is? Only when ordinary people support a leader according to criteria, or judgement , or ‘instruction’ of the ‘educated middle class’?
I never like Thaksin (nor did I hate him.) But I respect and support the right of ordinary people to choose their own leader, and resolutely oppose anyone who think they are ‘devada’, that they know better then ordinary people who they should choose, and then pretentiously suggest that if ordinary people didn’t choose one they approve of, it’s not democracy. These ‘devada’ can cast their ballot for anyone they like, of course. But don’t ‘dat-ja-rit’ to say that only their choice is democracy.
Careful: what charge? That people had cameras in 1992? Or that it is possible that some bodies could have been taken away with or without photos? Or that there are photos circulating (according to the good policeman)? My charge is that I am pleased that the SFT or someone else outside the govt is looking into it. Earth shattering indeed.
How can we move beyond Thaksin when he is so central to the current mess in Thailand?
I think it is up to the red shirts.
This is what I posted over at Prachatai english:
Thaksin is a godsend to the elites, and god-like to his followers.
The elite might be stupid, but so far they keep getting away with it (and therefore have not been forced to learn)
I also think the reds are misguided for clinging to Thaksin – They need to drop him once and for all (pay homage to him & thank him for the good things he did, but overall reject him because of the bad he has done & can do).
Once Thaksin is out of the picture, many who sympathize with the reds (but have qualms about Thaksin) will get an board, and then the real battle can proceed.
Why would Abhisit not wish to offer honest and comprehensive olive branches to the majority of the Puea Thai party’s constituents? The visions for the ‘future of Thailand’ held by the bulk of Puea Thai or Democrat voters are not mutually exclusive. A ‘modern, clean, first world, democratic constitutional monarchy, like Japan, or the UK (sic)’ is by nature politically inclusive, and does not suffer from wholesale poverty.
What Abhisit will not be able to offer (now even more than ever) is any kind of compromise regarding the status of the fugitive criminal Thaksin Shinawatra.
nganadeeleg: I too am disappointed that it is taking so long to move beyond Thaksin – he has served his purpose, and IMO going back to him is a dead end.
How can we move beyond Thaksin when he is so central to the current mess in Thailand?
Srithanonchai: Since there is no platform for them to express themselves openly and safely, they are forced to turn to the fugitive Thaksin whom they adopt as a symbol of challenge against authority.
If the Red-shirts haven’t turned to Thaksin, their claim to fight for justice and democracy would be much more credible and they’d have had me on their side. But then again without Thaksin and his enormous wealth to back them up, they would be just drops of water on the floor.
I found myself totally caught on the horns of a dilemma under the present turmoil in Thailand. I myself do not see this debacle as a Thaksin or the Palace war. I’ve never been a pro semi-divine and I resent many actions by the Yellow-shirts. But I also find it impossible to embrace a politician like Thaksin for reasons that I don’t think I have to elaborate here.
But I can say one thing, Abhisit Vejjajiva is probably the most decent Thai politician to have come in a long time. It would be sad if Thailand would have to do without him as a PM.
PR isn’t exactly their strong point. They write the beautiful spin first and then realize when it’s already too late that they forgot to weed the rosebed. ‘Land of Dynamism, Quality and Refinement’? Or just another bloodbath brought on by an almost zero degree of attention to the most important things? I understand that Thaksin highly rates the translated version of ‘Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff’ that his driver picked up for him on a rare foray into 711.
The news of the Sonti L. shooting has dominated office discussion all day. What I found surprising is that the man has enemies among the very groups whose interests I feel he serves. It was quite astonishing to hear an avowed yellow shirt suggest the man survived because of his expertise in deploying others as human shields.
Strangely, there was no rush to blame the Reds this time.
While it’s true that the few mass rallies called by the Red Shirts were generally free of violence, their movement has certainly committed more than its fair share of violent acts, from attacking Chuan and Abhisit in Chiang Mai, the assault on Prem’s house in 2007, the incidents last year in Udon Thani and Chiang Mai again, etc etc. To characterize their movement as nonviolent is dishonest. I’m not excusing violent actions by the yellows, but let’s stop portraying the reds in such false terms.
Despite the calm in Bangkok, things seem to be escalating for the worse today with the “chao por” style assassination attempt on Sondhi Limthongkul and the announcement of Thaksin’s appointment as an ambassador to Nicaragua.
While Sondhi is a definitely a flawed character with ambivalent motivations for his political stance, it is hard to see how murdering him could help further the political aims of the reds. Having him stick around to talk about his silly “new politics” would be much more helpful. Killing him or trying to kill him is more likely to strengthen support for the yellows and give the government more of an excuse for a crack down.
Given the Marxist past of the Sandinista party and Ortega, himself, signing up as an ambassador for Nicaragua is a free gift for those who want to paint Thaksin as an anti-monarchy communist. This report was filed in Spanish by Reuters Managua correspondent http://lta.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idLTASIE53F02S20090416. Here is a translation of some excerpts:
“’Currently, the Thai people are engaged in a peaceful struggle to restore the institutions and the rule of law, and facilitate the return of the former prime minister of their country,’ Ortega said the government in a statement…..
….The political crisis involves a confrontation of the monarchists, the military and the urban middle class against the poor in rural areas, the loyal supporters of Thaksin, who lives in exile to avoid being jailed on charges of corruption.”
While many on TM would cheer this description and would like to see the demise of the monarchy, it is unlikely that being clearly affiliated with a former Marxist guerilla and being represented as being in a struggle to overthrow the monarchy will enhance Thaksin’s standing at home. The Thai media are likely to overlook the most obvious explanation that the Nicaraguan diplomatic status was simply the best and most convenient deal that Thaksin’s money could buy when he went passport shopping in Central America, where citizenships and diplomatic passports are readily available for cash. If Panama had offered him a better deal, he probably would have gone for that and avoided the Marxist connotations of Nicaragua but his criminal record may have precluded obtaining diplomatic status in other Central American countries.
Yes, Ralph, obviously there are plenty of photos of May 1992. But few from people who not either news photographers or involved in the demonstrations themselves. It is quite a different situation today, as anyone can see, unless you’re a conspiracy theorist who doesn’t want to acknowledge the obvious differences because then your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold.
Furthermore, in 1992, the army was antagonistic towards the news media (witness the scenes at the Royal Hotel), and not particularly interested in giving them access to what they were doing. This time, the army allowed journalists and photographers full access to their operations in the streets. No one, to my knowledge, was pushed away or had their camera or film confiscated.
Between giving journalists full access, and the number of common people with mobile phone cameras, I don’t see how they could have secretly slaughtered a bunch of people, rolled up the trucks, loaded the dead on them and driven away without anyone getting some photos of it.
Once again, where is your proof? You (and the red shirts) are the ones making the charges. The burden of proof is, therefore, on you.
– An interesting snippet that I’ve not heard before: can you be a bit more specific as to who this reporter was / which publication / what date it appeared? I’m surprised that this hasn’t received wider coverage.
Talking of vacuous PR nonsense, at the movies the other day in Bangkok unsuspecting patrons were subjected to a – no kidding – minutes long TAT promo for Thailand, depicting a happy foreign couple enjoying the myriad cultural delights that the Kingdom has to offer … elephants, Khmer ruins, Songkran (without mob violence), beautiful beaches, preening katoeys (okay, no preening katoeys, but you get the picture). The epic was accompanied by a jolly musical soundtrack with voiceover extolling, in flowery language, the wonders revealed with each passing frame. In Thai. Which begs the question: if TAT are trying to reach out to overseas tourists, why have a Thai language voiceover, and if the target audience is Thai, why feature farangs? The more germane question, of course, is just how much the whole thing cost, both in production and air time costs. Money well spent …
Colum: You summed up the situation pretty well, and that’s why I think the country is lucky to have Abhisit, however I do hope he can break free from his shackles .
btw, Newin is banned, so if you put him in the picture you would also need to put the other 111 in, but doesn’t the PM have to be an MP now?
I personally like Purachai (many don’t), but he’s not a MP either is he?
Yes he is!! … Newin is untrustworthy, and therefore still opposition for Abhisit! There is no real team spirit in political parties, only acquaintances all trying to get the most they can.
But really, I just tried to come up with more names than Yongyuth Wichaidit during lunch in quick response to nganadeeleg and looked at an old article via Google. Newin being named after Ne Win was enough to be included.
I’m interested to know who you think would be a good Prime Ministerial appointment.
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Crackdown on the reds?
I just read Somsak’s response to Nganadeeleg’s post above. IMHO, somsak’s line of thought can never amend the rift between the Red and Yellow Faction(and I assume he perhaps see this ( reconciliation/ the attempt to reach out to those who do not share similar political views)as irrelevant coz he seems to be intent on proving that only he himself is right and others who offer alternative views are wrong Nga’s argument, however, is very sensible and I think everyone without bias and too much self-certainly can see that.
Crackdown on the reds?
Plato:If the Red-shirts haven’t turned to Thaksin, their claim to fight for justice and democracy would be much more credible and they’d have had me on their side. But then again without Thaksin and his enormous wealth to back them up, they would be just drops of water on the floor.
Is it bad to believe that elected representative should be the leader of red-shirted?
Obviously,”Someone that should be above politic” was giving a speech which urge to use constitutional court to get rid off ,what they called Thaksin-pawn-party,Power of people party before this crisis,colored-shirt mobwar, has been going on
I didn’t favor politician like Thaksin.but how do i say myself? In election,i vote for others one or hold my vote.Not by using court to judge the case ”biasly” and ”unfairly” to get rid of political party i dont like
If aphisit want to be democratized,Dissolved the parliament.Getting into election field,and won it,
I,for one,won’t have any complains.Instead of complaining,I will,with whole my heart,cheer and support him fully to be Thailand PM
Would aphisit dare to do that?
Crackdown on the reds?
Pluto:
nganadeeleg: I too am disappointed that it is taking so long to move beyond Thaksin – he has served his purpose, and IMO going back to him is a dead end.
How can we move beyond Thaksin when he is so central to the current mess in Thailand?
……
If the Red-shirts haven’t turned to Thaksin, their claim to fight for justice and democracy would be much more credible and they’d have had me on their side. But then again without Thaksin and his enormous wealth to back them up, they would be just drops of water on the floor.
Sometime when I see people write something along this line, I’d really like to vomit. No kidding. It’s so pretenteous, typical of ‘educated middle class’.
I ask: what’s wrong with ordinary people wantting to choose their own leaders? What’s wrong whem they had chosen one, and he was illegally overthrown by a coup? What’s wrong, therefore, when they demand justice by insisting he must be returned to his rightful, legitimate place?
If this is not democracy, then what is? Only when ordinary people support a leader according to criteria, or judgement , or ‘instruction’ of the ‘educated middle class’?
I never like Thaksin (nor did I hate him.) But I respect and support the right of ordinary people to choose their own leader, and resolutely oppose anyone who think they are ‘devada’, that they know better then ordinary people who they should choose, and then pretentiously suggest that if ordinary people didn’t choose one they approve of, it’s not democracy. These ‘devada’ can cast their ballot for anyone they like, of course. But don’t ‘dat-ja-rit’ to say that only their choice is democracy.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Careful: what charge? That people had cameras in 1992? Or that it is possible that some bodies could have been taken away with or without photos? Or that there are photos circulating (according to the good policeman)? My charge is that I am pleased that the SFT or someone else outside the govt is looking into it. Earth shattering indeed.
Crackdown on the reds?
How can we move beyond Thaksin when he is so central to the current mess in Thailand?
I think it is up to the red shirts.
This is what I posted over at Prachatai english:
Thaksin is a godsend to the elites, and god-like to his followers.
The elite might be stupid, but so far they keep getting away with it (and therefore have not been forced to learn)
I also think the reds are misguided for clinging to Thaksin – They need to drop him once and for all (pay homage to him & thank him for the good things he did, but overall reject him because of the bad he has done & can do).
Once Thaksin is out of the picture, many who sympathize with the reds (but have qualms about Thaksin) will get an board, and then the real battle can proceed.
How will this messy chapter end?
Why would Abhisit not wish to offer honest and comprehensive olive branches to the majority of the Puea Thai party’s constituents? The visions for the ‘future of Thailand’ held by the bulk of Puea Thai or Democrat voters are not mutually exclusive. A ‘modern, clean, first world, democratic constitutional monarchy, like Japan, or the UK (sic)’ is by nature politically inclusive, and does not suffer from wholesale poverty.
What Abhisit will not be able to offer (now even more than ever) is any kind of compromise regarding the status of the fugitive criminal Thaksin Shinawatra.
Crackdown on the reds?
nganadeeleg: I too am disappointed that it is taking so long to move beyond Thaksin – he has served his purpose, and IMO going back to him is a dead end.
How can we move beyond Thaksin when he is so central to the current mess in Thailand?
Srithanonchai: Since there is no platform for them to express themselves openly and safely, they are forced to turn to the fugitive Thaksin whom they adopt as a symbol of challenge against authority.
If the Red-shirts haven’t turned to Thaksin, their claim to fight for justice and democracy would be much more credible and they’d have had me on their side. But then again without Thaksin and his enormous wealth to back them up, they would be just drops of water on the floor.
I found myself totally caught on the horns of a dilemma under the present turmoil in Thailand. I myself do not see this debacle as a Thaksin or the Palace war. I’ve never been a pro semi-divine and I resent many actions by the Yellow-shirts. But I also find it impossible to embrace a politician like Thaksin for reasons that I don’t think I have to elaborate here.
But I can say one thing, Abhisit Vejjajiva is probably the most decent Thai politician to have come in a long time. It would be sad if Thailand would have to do without him as a PM.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
PR isn’t exactly their strong point. They write the beautiful spin first and then realize when it’s already too late that they forgot to weed the rosebed. ‘Land of Dynamism, Quality and Refinement’? Or just another bloodbath brought on by an almost zero degree of attention to the most important things? I understand that Thaksin highly rates the translated version of ‘Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff’ that his driver picked up for him on a rare foray into 711.
Crackdown on the reds?
The news of the Sonti L. shooting has dominated office discussion all day. What I found surprising is that the man has enemies among the very groups whose interests I feel he serves. It was quite astonishing to hear an avowed yellow shirt suggest the man survived because of his expertise in deploying others as human shields.
Strangely, there was no rush to blame the Reds this time.
Back to normal?
Recall that the army was rumoured to have claimed some time ago that they wanted to get rid of Thailand’s two most dangerous men: Thaksin and Sondhi.
Also, the palace was rumoured to be worried by Sondhi’s ability to mobilise his supporters.
Sondhi has plenty of business enemies.
The red shirts hate him.
Seh Daeng warned/threatened him and other PAD leaders.
So there must be plenty of suspects.
The yellow lesson
While it’s true that the few mass rallies called by the Red Shirts were generally free of violence, their movement has certainly committed more than its fair share of violent acts, from attacking Chuan and Abhisit in Chiang Mai, the assault on Prem’s house in 2007, the incidents last year in Udon Thani and Chiang Mai again, etc etc. To characterize their movement as nonviolent is dishonest. I’m not excusing violent actions by the yellows, but let’s stop portraying the reds in such false terms.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Despite the calm in Bangkok, things seem to be escalating for the worse today with the “chao por” style assassination attempt on Sondhi Limthongkul and the announcement of Thaksin’s appointment as an ambassador to Nicaragua.
While Sondhi is a definitely a flawed character with ambivalent motivations for his political stance, it is hard to see how murdering him could help further the political aims of the reds. Having him stick around to talk about his silly “new politics” would be much more helpful. Killing him or trying to kill him is more likely to strengthen support for the yellows and give the government more of an excuse for a crack down.
Given the Marxist past of the Sandinista party and Ortega, himself, signing up as an ambassador for Nicaragua is a free gift for those who want to paint Thaksin as an anti-monarchy communist. This report was filed in Spanish by Reuters Managua correspondent http://lta.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idLTASIE53F02S20090416. Here is a translation of some excerpts:
“’Currently, the Thai people are engaged in a peaceful struggle to restore the institutions and the rule of law, and facilitate the return of the former prime minister of their country,’ Ortega said the government in a statement…..
….The political crisis involves a confrontation of the monarchists, the military and the urban middle class against the poor in rural areas, the loyal supporters of Thaksin, who lives in exile to avoid being jailed on charges of corruption.”
While many on TM would cheer this description and would like to see the demise of the monarchy, it is unlikely that being clearly affiliated with a former Marxist guerilla and being represented as being in a struggle to overthrow the monarchy will enhance Thaksin’s standing at home. The Thai media are likely to overlook the most obvious explanation that the Nicaraguan diplomatic status was simply the best and most convenient deal that Thaksin’s money could buy when he went passport shopping in Central America, where citizenships and diplomatic passports are readily available for cash. If Panama had offered him a better deal, he probably would have gone for that and avoided the Marxist connotations of Nicaragua but his criminal record may have precluded obtaining diplomatic status in other Central American countries.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Yes, Ralph, obviously there are plenty of photos of May 1992. But few from people who not either news photographers or involved in the demonstrations themselves. It is quite a different situation today, as anyone can see, unless you’re a conspiracy theorist who doesn’t want to acknowledge the obvious differences because then your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold.
Furthermore, in 1992, the army was antagonistic towards the news media (witness the scenes at the Royal Hotel), and not particularly interested in giving them access to what they were doing. This time, the army allowed journalists and photographers full access to their operations in the streets. No one, to my knowledge, was pushed away or had their camera or film confiscated.
Between giving journalists full access, and the number of common people with mobile phone cameras, I don’t see how they could have secretly slaughtered a bunch of people, rolled up the trucks, loaded the dead on them and driven away without anyone getting some photos of it.
Once again, where is your proof? You (and the red shirts) are the ones making the charges. The burden of proof is, therefore, on you.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Somsak # 36
“This is how one reporter reported the “off the record” interview (in Thai):
р╕Юр╕ер╣Ар╕нр╕Бр╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤р╕нр╕Шр╕┤р╕Ър╕▓р╕вр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Яр╕▓р╕Зр╣Ар╕кр╣Йр╕Щр╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╕Чр╣Йр╕▓р╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Чр╕│р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Хр╕▒р╕Фр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╣Гр╕Ир╕вр╕╢р╕Фр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕И р╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕вр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕┤р╕Ур╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕зр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ир╕▓р╕Ър╕Ир╣Йр╕зр╕Зр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Нр╕Кр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕лр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╣Гр╕Щр╕Чр╕│р╕Щр╕нр╕Зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕ар╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕Хр╣Йр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕зр╕Ър╕Др╕╕р╕бр╕Фр╕╣р╣Бр╕ер╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╣Ар╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕кр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕З “р╣Гр╕кр╣Ир╣Др╕зр╣Йр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Лр╕▓””
– An interesting snippet that I’ve not heard before: can you be a bit more specific as to who this reporter was / which publication / what date it appeared? I’m surprised that this hasn’t received wider coverage.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Be more careful Careful. There are plenty of photographs of the 1992 events and lots of video as well. People did own cameras prior to mobile phones.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
Talking of vacuous PR nonsense, at the movies the other day in Bangkok unsuspecting patrons were subjected to a – no kidding – minutes long TAT promo for Thailand, depicting a happy foreign couple enjoying the myriad cultural delights that the Kingdom has to offer … elephants, Khmer ruins, Songkran (without mob violence), beautiful beaches, preening katoeys (okay, no preening katoeys, but you get the picture). The epic was accompanied by a jolly musical soundtrack with voiceover extolling, in flowery language, the wonders revealed with each passing frame. In Thai. Which begs the question: if TAT are trying to reach out to overseas tourists, why have a Thai language voiceover, and if the target audience is Thai, why feature farangs? The more germane question, of course, is just how much the whole thing cost, both in production and air time costs. Money well spent …
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Colum: You summed up the situation pretty well, and that’s why I think the country is lucky to have Abhisit, however I do hope he can break free from his shackles .
btw, Newin is banned, so if you put him in the picture you would also need to put the other 111 in, but doesn’t the PM have to be an MP now?
I personally like Purachai (many don’t), but he’s not a MP either is he?
Photos of the crisis in Thailand
Also see:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31465043@N02/sets/72157616838636462/
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Yes he is!! … Newin is untrustworthy, and therefore still opposition for Abhisit! There is no real team spirit in political parties, only acquaintances all trying to get the most they can.
But really, I just tried to come up with more names than Yongyuth Wichaidit during lunch in quick response to nganadeeleg and looked at an old article via Google. Newin being named after Ne Win was enough to be included.
I’m interested to know who you think would be a good Prime Ministerial appointment.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Colum Graham #51.
Is Newin now in the opposition?