Everyone seems to be accepting the governments statement that there were two deaths and that these were caused by the redshirts
I have seen redshirt claims that Abhisit’s security guard shot a redshirt (in ICU not dead, yet?)
Also there are redshirt claims that soldiers took away dead redshirts from Din Daeng and there is video that seems to suggest this was happening
And a blogger claimed to witness that the redshirts actually came to an agreement with the muslims at Na(sp?) Laeng Market when some strangers (incognito blueshirts?) on motor bikes came past and shot the two muslim residents
Because there is some history to suggest that such activities have been a feature of BPP and army operations in the past, seems to me these allegations would bear independent investigation
As Dang notes TV and radio access seems to be blocked and there is news of formal warnings to Thai media to reinforce there already strong self-censorship/bias against reporting any of the anti-government news
The current government is in power as a result of the PAD reign of terror at Government House, the International airports and the manipulated court decisions to disband the elected governments.
The redshirts want return to government selected by fair elections free of pressure by the Military and manipulation by the privy councillors.
Thaksin’s passport revoked, retains citizenship
Published: 15/04/2009 at 04:53 PM
The passport of fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has been revoked for his role in inciting the protests that caused the cancellation of the weekend Asia summit in Pattaya and subsequent rioting, the chief government spokesman said on Wednesday.
.
Thaksin still retains his Thai citizenship.
”The foreign ministry has cancelled his passport,” spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said.
”The incident on the 11th [of April] is the reason.
What if I say, I don’t owe the monarchy anything? I only consider owing my parents for the life they have given me: not anyone else. As for feeling indebted for their existence in this land, whose land is it? It’s Thailand which is owned by all Thais, not by one person or one family.
And don’t talk to me about the ownership the monarchy having over all Thais and the whole country. If you study Thai history, you will see that none of monarchies or kings had the right to this land from their birth, they fought and colonized the same way the European powers did in the past: nothing honorable.
I respect the monarchy and appreciate their works for the country. But my love and respect have condition that they should be where they belong, the same place the British monarchy is.
I’m not asking for the abolishing of the monarchy; I’m asking for my right to vote for a PM, and a government that will work for me.
To have so much problem with ‘figure’ like Thaksin who’s in power for 4-5 years but stay silent on ‘figure’ who’s in power for some 50-60 years is truly hypocritical
It’s because I honestly don’t know what to make of that figure.
I have major concerns about the way the poo yai network operates, the LM laws, the top heavy military, unequal distribution of wealth, discrimination against ethnic & religious minorities (actually the list is endless).
But, who’s responsible?
I look at the countries surrounding Thailand, the old domino theory, the influence of superpowers, the type of politicians in the country, the aversion to loss of face etc, and based on those things I can understand to some extent why things have been done the way they have.
(so in effect I can understand the shyness towards full democracy, and I can understand the wish to hold the country together)
I would like to see much more transparency regarding the CPB and some clarification of who really owns the wealth, but at the same time I can understand the wish to keep it intact as otherwise the politicians would have squandered it.
I personally think he is genuine regarding SE (trying to help people with sound advice), however there is no way it should be mandated just because he likes it (as an aside I have just purchased E F Schumachers ‘Small is Beautiful’ due to my interest in those themes)
I have to be sensitive to Thai feelings, but I do wish the reins had been let go gradually at least over the last 2 decades which would have avoided the current (and upcoming) crisis.
With Thaksin, I have never really criticized his pro-poor policies other than espressing concerns about sustainability & how the village loan funds were spent. I can understand and sympathize with his motives for trying to clean up on drugs, but there is no way I can condone the way the drug war was conducted – by not stopping or revising it when concerns were first raised, I believe Thaksin has blood on his hands.
(I know you will say a certain other semi-devine figure seemed to approve, but I think that speech was ambiguous, but if he did approve of the conduct, then from my safe distance I am prepared to criticize him for it)
Apart from the conduct of drug war, I think his handling of the southern insurgency was wrong (I know it the military on the ground do the heavyhandedness, but Thaksin backed them up), and found his intermingling of government & business ethically suspect, and his tax manipulations ethically and morally corrupt.
The reason I always come back to Thaksin is that vast numbers are worshipping his photo, I think that is muisguided and therefore try to get some reality into their views of him.
(also the the other person does not contest elections, cannot be voted for, or against, so there is no point me me wasting my energy to get anyone to reconsider how they view that person)
Of course I think any Thai should be able to raise the above matters openly, in a sensible, rational manner, and the fact that cannot be done is a blight on his reign.
I think Kavi forgotten about the double standard .You have to see the face of the nation reporters when they they reported about the army charged at the Red shirt at Din-Daeng.They seem to forget that the Red also Thai.I agree with Andrew that it really run deep.Kevi must have also forgotten that the army also storm D-station with 500 soldiers with the weapons paid by our tax. They also close down many websites.We never forget the unfairness nation media do to us.I pictures we saw in BBC,CNN,AFP never seen on TV.
When Red shirts ladies kneel down at the soldier feet and offer them flowers with the soldiers face turn away also never seen in TV.There is only Mr Apisit who is clean ,clear,perform the clean up in democratic way.
I am not a fan of Thaksin but i am Thai who will laways loath the Army and Apisit for my whole life.I really regret to be born here.
Red-Yellow Alliance? The Hue and Cry of Thailand’s Crisis
At a red shirt rally in February 2009, one protester told me, “Our movement has gone beyond Thaksin now”. If the red shirts can be divided between pro and anti-Thaksin elements, and the yellow shirts can be divided into many hues of royal liberals, tank liberals, and anti-liberals, then what hope for an eventual red-yellow alliance? That is, how many Thais would like to see their country gradually transformed into a more “normal” constitutional monarchy where the King and his advisers have only ceremonial roles and where the military and police are professional and non-politicized? The problem with such a pie-in-the-sky aspiration obviously has to do with a lack of leadership due to the nature of polarization within the elites themselves. It has become a zero-sum game between a republic and a quasi-constitutional monarchy. Although the potential for a red-yellow movement exists, there is no credible, neutral figure to lead it. And the most polarizing puppetmasters will be around for another 20 years or longer. Thaksin is 59 years old. Prem is 88. The Queen is 76. “Assassination” politics (the idea that killing a few puppetmasters or waiting for them to die would solve the conflict) reflects this. Even if Thaksin were to die of natural causes, the red shirt movement would go on. But Thaksin is still relatively young. Is this why we have to accept him as the “savior” of Thai democracy? Thaksin has been behaving as if the King has already died, but the Network would still be relatively strong even without the King (partly due to the military’s allegiance to the remaining members of the royal family). We cannot expect reconciliation anytime soon.
Why do you guys waste your time discussing? It goes without saying that the Kingdom of Thailand belongs to the Great King. Terms or conditions as well as “The SpecialThai way “of democracy are all defined by its KING. If you cannot tolerate it, get out of Thailand!
Every Thai is indebted for his or her existence in this very land.
That ad was not surprising. Nothing the BOI puts out is. Promotion but not a lot of substance, and certainly no marketing to speak of in the real sense.
I am not a Thai, but my mother was and still have a lot of relatives in Thailand (bangkok and the south) Most of them are anti Thaksin, but all of them cannot answer for the military or the democrat when I question their corruption. It seems that corrupt police / army and democrats are OK, but anyone else is not. I am not saying Thaksin is not corrupt – he was a pol col and became rich using his connections etc…
I am not pro-anyone, just tired of one sided accusation about Thaksin Thaksin Thaksin but seemingly intelligent people who conveniently forget corruption of the other side. As some commentators have pointed out here and in other sites, it is not about Thaksin’s corruption, it is a battle between two power camps. Thaksin, just got a weaker hand, because his enemies are the long established power. His ploy was to bring up the countryside and use that against the status quo – right or wrong? ask the small time farmers and the poorer Thais.
No one else has tried that, especially not the democrats – who can’t seem to win any elections and not for the want of trying. For that change in strategy, I salute Thaksin. Even my relatives (mostly wealthy) have to concede that things were better during Thaksin’s time. (things did get more expensive, but buying power parity went up)
That’s my take – see all sides, step back and have a holistic approach.
I think they really hoped for major split in the army.
It didn’t happen so they were left with nothing.
But, having witnessed riots in places like Northern Ireland and Korea I would say that the Red Shirts were very badly organised rioters who looked utterly unprepared for the final battle.
Now they know fully where they stand re: the army and I doubt the same mistakes will be made the next time.
At this point the ball is firmly in Abhisit’s court but he if doesn’t act fast and doesn’t act even-handedly he could actually make things a lot worse.
With Abhisit, at least appearing to be, firmly in control the buck stops completely with him. Any failure on his part will be harshly judged. He has the opportunity to set things straight – lets see if he can do it.
Looking at news clips where the soldiers were firing their M16s I noticed thick clouds of black smoke coming from their gun muzzles like the smoke produced by black powder muzzle loading muskets. This smoke was certainly not produced by high velocity full metal jacket combat rounds which produce a thin wisp of white smoke. It could have been produced by blank cartridges or, more worringly, by what the Thai army calls “practice” ammunition which is cheap locally manufactured low velocity ammunition with lead tips not covered with a copper jacket that limits penetrative power but can still be lethal. If you fire this stuff at a firing range, you will be covered with filth afterwards. I imagine that they use the same powder in locally produced blank cartridges and suspect that most of the rounds fired where blanks, since there were no signs of dead bodies or pock marked trees and buildings, as there were in 1992. Some of the soldiers, however, perhaps NCOs, carried bandoliers filled with what were clearly full metal jacket copper clad high velocity rounds. So they were certainly ready to use lethal force, if necessary.
I totally agree with you on the point that it is not important to know the identity of a person to value their opinion.
However, there is a poster on NM who shows up every now and then under the pseudonym of ‘Republican’ who likes to attack prominent academics, politicians, and other players for not taking a more antagonistic stance against the monarchy while he himself hides under a false name… in that case, I believe we can call on the integrity of the opinion (against someone else) when we have no courage to follow our own word.
Many of you seem to wonder why the ‘police’ and ‘army’ failed in dealing with the red shirts. I will refer to October 7th Clashes when the police and army were ordered by their civil masters to attack the protesters, they did… then none of their civilian masters took ‘responsibility’ for it, blaming instead the police and army officers on the ground and their officers…. now if I were being ordered again by those masters, I’d want to cover my ass to make sure no one takes me down just for following orders.
Contrast that to Abhisit and Suthep talking calmly, asking the police the army to enforce the rule of law; telling the media that they can take all the shots and report what they want, and most important of all, telling the army and police that if you follow what we say, “I take responsibility for your actions” said Suthep…
Now, this is a different point from yellow/red priviledges but the way of enforcing law by different governments. My point is that the TRT/PPP/PT were inept and never took responsibility for their actions, just like how Jakraphob and Thaksin are now telling the foreign media that they are not responsible nor have they ever ‘instigated’ the red shirts to take over intersections, get violent, and do acts of terror like part gas tanks in the street, and cover smaller LPG tanks with fuel….
again, this is a different debate from yellow/red and bringing up any differences is a moot point for now.
“So the big question – why did the Redshirts make the huge tactical error of trying to take over Bangkok?
Thailand has a long history of massacring protesters. So, when Abhisit declared his state of emergency and sent the troops out were the Redshirts right to adopt a defensive posture and be ready to fight back? Should they just have taken their beating lying down? ”
You have provided the answer in your second paragraph, Stinkyturner. Since Thailand has a long history of massacring protestors, the red shirt leadership hoped that this time would be no different and that the military would overreact and end up by killing scores of red shirts and possibly even stage a coup to oust a government viewed as too soft and ineffectual. This was hoped to set the scene for at best a violent general uprising and at the very least should make it easier for Thaksin to gain sympathy abroad, compared to a government that suppresses demonstrations with extreme violence. Too bad for Thaksin that his plans failed this time.
Thaksin had hoped to created a wonderful buying opportunity by provoking massacres.
Do you know Thaksin Shinawatra?
Just what sort of business you wish to do would be the determining factor in whether the time was right. The exchange rate remained stable at around 25 baht to $1 AU for the duration of last weeks crisis.
I would think that the privileged but vacuous ML Nattakorn and his father, MR Pridyathorn, one of Thailand’s most incompetent finance ministers ever who served under the last junta, would be prime candidates to ride in the first tumbril off to the guillotine after the “revolution” he talks about has taken place.
No it’s not a good time to invest in Thailand. According to Sir John Templeton’s famous adage, “Buy when there’s blood on the streets”, the time is not yet ripe. Thaksin had hoped to created a wonderful buying opportunity by provoking massacres. Although he has been responsble for many deaths in the past, his plans failed this time and adherents of the Templeton school of investing will have to be patient.
The example I gave were of what many Thais around me had know, and they were also mentioned by Thai media.
Since more than 90% of Thais declared themselves Buddhist, there is hight possibility that you are also Buddhist. Then I suggests you should analyze the information according to Buddha teaching before believe everything that media says .
No matter how corrupt Thaksin was he MUST be brought down by LAW, not by gun.
If we(Thais) want to claim we are democratic country.
The Abhisit administration may have won the first major battle with the red shirts but the seeds of discontent have taken root. The strength of the resistance – both those who support Thaksin for who he is and those who support him for what he is fighting against – should prompt whoever is thinking they can control it by force, to think twice. These people can’t be dismissed. The government must find a way for their grievances to be taken into account, their cries for change heard and heeded, or it faces a long and belligerent war.
Democracy is ultimately about fair compromise. It is obvious now that Thaksin neither knows nor respects that philosophy. He wants it all. If he can’t have it his way, he’d rather destroy and burn it all. That is who he is.
It will be a long road to rebuilding the country, bruised and burned in the Songkran skirmish. Again, the future might appear like walking in a deep, dark tunnel not knowing which direction to go and where the snags and perils are. But without the pixelated apparition of demagogue Thaksin Shinawatra inciting people and misleading them about what democracy is – now that his selfish motive and cruel intention have been laid bare – at least we won’t feel so haunted.
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Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
Everyone seems to be accepting the governments statement that there were two deaths and that these were caused by the redshirts
I have seen redshirt claims that Abhisit’s security guard shot a redshirt (in ICU not dead, yet?)
Also there are redshirt claims that soldiers took away dead redshirts from Din Daeng and there is video that seems to suggest this was happening
And a blogger claimed to witness that the redshirts actually came to an agreement with the muslims at Na(sp?) Laeng Market when some strangers (incognito blueshirts?) on motor bikes came past and shot the two muslim residents
Because there is some history to suggest that such activities have been a feature of BPP and army operations in the past, seems to me these allegations would bear independent investigation
As Dang notes TV and radio access seems to be blocked and there is news of formal warnings to Thai media to reinforce there already strong self-censorship/bias against reporting any of the anti-government news
The current government is in power as a result of the PAD reign of terror at Government House, the International airports and the manipulated court decisions to disband the elected governments.
The redshirts want return to government selected by fair elections free of pressure by the Military and manipulation by the privy councillors.
Crackdown on the reds?
Thaksin’s passport revoked, retains citizenship
Published: 15/04/2009 at 04:53 PM
The passport of fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has been revoked for his role in inciting the protests that caused the cancellation of the weekend Asia summit in Pattaya and subsequent rioting, the chief government spokesman said on Wednesday.
.
Thaksin still retains his Thai citizenship.
”The foreign ministry has cancelled his passport,” spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said.
”The incident on the 11th [of April] is the reason.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/140652/thaksin-passport-revoked-retains-citizenship
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Ben Jung,
What if I say, I don’t owe the monarchy anything? I only consider owing my parents for the life they have given me: not anyone else. As for feeling indebted for their existence in this land, whose land is it? It’s Thailand which is owned by all Thais, not by one person or one family.
And don’t talk to me about the ownership the monarchy having over all Thais and the whole country. If you study Thai history, you will see that none of monarchies or kings had the right to this land from their birth, they fought and colonized the same way the European powers did in the past: nothing honorable.
I respect the monarchy and appreciate their works for the country. But my love and respect have condition that they should be where they belong, the same place the British monarchy is.
I’m not asking for the abolishing of the monarchy; I’m asking for my right to vote for a PM, and a government that will work for me.
Crackdown on the reds?
To have so much problem with ‘figure’ like Thaksin who’s in power for 4-5 years but stay silent on ‘figure’ who’s in power for some 50-60 years is truly hypocritical
It’s because I honestly don’t know what to make of that figure.
I have major concerns about the way the poo yai network operates, the LM laws, the top heavy military, unequal distribution of wealth, discrimination against ethnic & religious minorities (actually the list is endless).
But, who’s responsible?
I look at the countries surrounding Thailand, the old domino theory, the influence of superpowers, the type of politicians in the country, the aversion to loss of face etc, and based on those things I can understand to some extent why things have been done the way they have.
(so in effect I can understand the shyness towards full democracy, and I can understand the wish to hold the country together)
I would like to see much more transparency regarding the CPB and some clarification of who really owns the wealth, but at the same time I can understand the wish to keep it intact as otherwise the politicians would have squandered it.
I personally think he is genuine regarding SE (trying to help people with sound advice), however there is no way it should be mandated just because he likes it (as an aside I have just purchased E F Schumachers ‘Small is Beautiful’ due to my interest in those themes)
I have to be sensitive to Thai feelings, but I do wish the reins had been let go gradually at least over the last 2 decades which would have avoided the current (and upcoming) crisis.
With Thaksin, I have never really criticized his pro-poor policies other than espressing concerns about sustainability & how the village loan funds were spent. I can understand and sympathize with his motives for trying to clean up on drugs, but there is no way I can condone the way the drug war was conducted – by not stopping or revising it when concerns were first raised, I believe Thaksin has blood on his hands.
(I know you will say a certain other semi-devine figure seemed to approve, but I think that speech was ambiguous, but if he did approve of the conduct, then from my safe distance I am prepared to criticize him for it)
Apart from the conduct of drug war, I think his handling of the southern insurgency was wrong (I know it the military on the ground do the heavyhandedness, but Thaksin backed them up), and found his intermingling of government & business ethically suspect, and his tax manipulations ethically and morally corrupt.
The reason I always come back to Thaksin is that vast numbers are worshipping his photo, I think that is muisguided and therefore try to get some reality into their views of him.
(also the the other person does not contest elections, cannot be voted for, or against, so there is no point me me wasting my energy to get anyone to reconsider how they view that person)
Of course I think any Thai should be able to raise the above matters openly, in a sensible, rational manner, and the fact that cannot be done is a blight on his reign.
Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
I think Kavi forgotten about the double standard .You have to see the face of the nation reporters when they they reported about the army charged at the Red shirt at Din-Daeng.They seem to forget that the Red also Thai.I agree with Andrew that it really run deep.Kevi must have also forgotten that the army also storm D-station with 500 soldiers with the weapons paid by our tax. They also close down many websites.We never forget the unfairness nation media do to us.I pictures we saw in BBC,CNN,AFP never seen on TV.
When Red shirts ladies kneel down at the soldier feet and offer them flowers with the soldiers face turn away also never seen in TV.There is only Mr Apisit who is clean ,clear,perform the clean up in democratic way.
I am not a fan of Thaksin but i am Thai who will laways loath the Army and Apisit for my whole life.I really regret to be born here.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Red-Yellow Alliance? The Hue and Cry of Thailand’s Crisis
At a red shirt rally in February 2009, one protester told me, “Our movement has gone beyond Thaksin now”. If the red shirts can be divided between pro and anti-Thaksin elements, and the yellow shirts can be divided into many hues of royal liberals, tank liberals, and anti-liberals, then what hope for an eventual red-yellow alliance? That is, how many Thais would like to see their country gradually transformed into a more “normal” constitutional monarchy where the King and his advisers have only ceremonial roles and where the military and police are professional and non-politicized? The problem with such a pie-in-the-sky aspiration obviously has to do with a lack of leadership due to the nature of polarization within the elites themselves. It has become a zero-sum game between a republic and a quasi-constitutional monarchy. Although the potential for a red-yellow movement exists, there is no credible, neutral figure to lead it. And the most polarizing puppetmasters will be around for another 20 years or longer. Thaksin is 59 years old. Prem is 88. The Queen is 76. “Assassination” politics (the idea that killing a few puppetmasters or waiting for them to die would solve the conflict) reflects this. Even if Thaksin were to die of natural causes, the red shirt movement would go on. But Thaksin is still relatively young. Is this why we have to accept him as the “savior” of Thai democracy? Thaksin has been behaving as if the King has already died, but the Network would still be relatively strong even without the King (partly due to the military’s allegiance to the remaining members of the royal family). We cannot expect reconciliation anytime soon.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Why do you guys waste your time discussing? It goes without saying that the Kingdom of Thailand belongs to the Great King. Terms or conditions as well as “The SpecialThai way “of democracy are all defined by its KING. If you cannot tolerate it, get out of Thailand!
Every Thai is indebted for his or her existence in this very land.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
That ad was not surprising. Nothing the BOI puts out is. Promotion but not a lot of substance, and certainly no marketing to speak of in the real sense.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
To student,
I am not a Thai, but my mother was and still have a lot of relatives in Thailand (bangkok and the south) Most of them are anti Thaksin, but all of them cannot answer for the military or the democrat when I question their corruption. It seems that corrupt police / army and democrats are OK, but anyone else is not. I am not saying Thaksin is not corrupt – he was a pol col and became rich using his connections etc…
I am not pro-anyone, just tired of one sided accusation about Thaksin Thaksin Thaksin but seemingly intelligent people who conveniently forget corruption of the other side. As some commentators have pointed out here and in other sites, it is not about Thaksin’s corruption, it is a battle between two power camps. Thaksin, just got a weaker hand, because his enemies are the long established power. His ploy was to bring up the countryside and use that against the status quo – right or wrong? ask the small time farmers and the poorer Thais.
No one else has tried that, especially not the democrats – who can’t seem to win any elections and not for the want of trying. For that change in strategy, I salute Thaksin. Even my relatives (mostly wealthy) have to concede that things were better during Thaksin’s time. (things did get more expensive, but buying power parity went up)
That’s my take – see all sides, step back and have a holistic approach.
On the Songkran crisis of 2009
Interesting piece in Nation on Red Shirt tactics.
I think they really hoped for major split in the army.
It didn’t happen so they were left with nothing.
But, having witnessed riots in places like Northern Ireland and Korea I would say that the Red Shirts were very badly organised rioters who looked utterly unprepared for the final battle.
Now they know fully where they stand re: the army and I doubt the same mistakes will be made the next time.
At this point the ball is firmly in Abhisit’s court but he if doesn’t act fast and doesn’t act even-handedly he could actually make things a lot worse.
With Abhisit, at least appearing to be, firmly in control the buck stops completely with him. Any failure on his part will be harshly judged. He has the opportunity to set things straight – lets see if he can do it.
On the Songkran crisis of 2009
“Many of you seem to wonder why the ‘police’ and ‘army’ failed in dealing with the RED shirts.”
in this sentence in my post above, I meant to refer to YELLOW shirts
sorry for the mix-up.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Nice pictures Taro Mongkoltip #12.
Looking at news clips where the soldiers were firing their M16s I noticed thick clouds of black smoke coming from their gun muzzles like the smoke produced by black powder muzzle loading muskets. This smoke was certainly not produced by high velocity full metal jacket combat rounds which produce a thin wisp of white smoke. It could have been produced by blank cartridges or, more worringly, by what the Thai army calls “practice” ammunition which is cheap locally manufactured low velocity ammunition with lead tips not covered with a copper jacket that limits penetrative power but can still be lethal. If you fire this stuff at a firing range, you will be covered with filth afterwards. I imagine that they use the same powder in locally produced blank cartridges and suspect that most of the rounds fired where blanks, since there were no signs of dead bodies or pock marked trees and buildings, as there were in 1992. Some of the soldiers, however, perhaps NCOs, carried bandoliers filled with what were clearly full metal jacket copper clad high velocity rounds. So they were certainly ready to use lethal force, if necessary.
Red shirts on the march
Amberwaves,
I totally agree with you on the point that it is not important to know the identity of a person to value their opinion.
However, there is a poster on NM who shows up every now and then under the pseudonym of ‘Republican’ who likes to attack prominent academics, politicians, and other players for not taking a more antagonistic stance against the monarchy while he himself hides under a false name… in that case, I believe we can call on the integrity of the opinion (against someone else) when we have no courage to follow our own word.
cheerio
On the Songkran crisis of 2009
hclau and others on this site:
Many of you seem to wonder why the ‘police’ and ‘army’ failed in dealing with the red shirts. I will refer to October 7th Clashes when the police and army were ordered by their civil masters to attack the protesters, they did… then none of their civilian masters took ‘responsibility’ for it, blaming instead the police and army officers on the ground and their officers…. now if I were being ordered again by those masters, I’d want to cover my ass to make sure no one takes me down just for following orders.
Contrast that to Abhisit and Suthep talking calmly, asking the police the army to enforce the rule of law; telling the media that they can take all the shots and report what they want, and most important of all, telling the army and police that if you follow what we say, “I take responsibility for your actions” said Suthep…
Now, this is a different point from yellow/red priviledges but the way of enforcing law by different governments. My point is that the TRT/PPP/PT were inept and never took responsibility for their actions, just like how Jakraphob and Thaksin are now telling the foreign media that they are not responsible nor have they ever ‘instigated’ the red shirts to take over intersections, get violent, and do acts of terror like part gas tanks in the street, and cover smaller LPG tanks with fuel….
again, this is a different debate from yellow/red and bringing up any differences is a moot point for now.
On the Songkran crisis of 2009
Stinkyturner #16
“So the big question – why did the Redshirts make the huge tactical error of trying to take over Bangkok?
Thailand has a long history of massacring protesters. So, when Abhisit declared his state of emergency and sent the troops out were the Redshirts right to adopt a defensive posture and be ready to fight back? Should they just have taken their beating lying down? ”
You have provided the answer in your second paragraph, Stinkyturner. Since Thailand has a long history of massacring protestors, the red shirt leadership hoped that this time would be no different and that the military would overreact and end up by killing scores of red shirts and possibly even stage a coup to oust a government viewed as too soft and ineffectual. This was hoped to set the scene for at best a violent general uprising and at the very least should make it easier for Thaksin to gain sympathy abroad, compared to a government that suppresses demonstrations with extreme violence. Too bad for Thaksin that his plans failed this time.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
Thaksin had hoped to created a wonderful buying opportunity by provoking massacres.
Do you know Thaksin Shinawatra?
Just what sort of business you wish to do would be the determining factor in whether the time was right. The exchange rate remained stable at around 25 baht to $1 AU for the duration of last weeks crisis.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
Susie Wong #1.
I would think that the privileged but vacuous ML Nattakorn and his father, MR Pridyathorn, one of Thailand’s most incompetent finance ministers ever who served under the last junta, would be prime candidates to ride in the first tumbril off to the guillotine after the “revolution” he talks about has taken place.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
No it’s not a good time to invest in Thailand. According to Sir John Templeton’s famous adage, “Buy when there’s blood on the streets”, the time is not yet ripe. Thaksin had hoped to created a wonderful buying opportunity by provoking massacres. Although he has been responsble for many deaths in the past, his plans failed this time and adherents of the Templeton school of investing will have to be patient.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
The example I gave were of what many Thais around me had know, and they were also mentioned by Thai media.
Since more than 90% of Thais declared themselves Buddhist, there is hight possibility that you are also Buddhist. Then I suggests you should analyze the information according to Buddha teaching before believe everything that media says .
No matter how corrupt Thaksin was he MUST be brought down by LAW, not by gun.
If we(Thais) want to claim we are democratic country.
Crackdown on the reds?
By: Atiya Achakulwisut
Published: 15/04/2009
Bangkok Post
…
The Abhisit administration may have won the first major battle with the red shirts but the seeds of discontent have taken root. The strength of the resistance – both those who support Thaksin for who he is and those who support him for what he is fighting against – should prompt whoever is thinking they can control it by force, to think twice. These people can’t be dismissed. The government must find a way for their grievances to be taken into account, their cries for change heard and heeded, or it faces a long and belligerent war.
Democracy is ultimately about fair compromise. It is obvious now that Thaksin neither knows nor respects that philosophy. He wants it all. If he can’t have it his way, he’d rather destroy and burn it all. That is who he is.
It will be a long road to rebuilding the country, bruised and burned in the Songkran skirmish. Again, the future might appear like walking in a deep, dark tunnel not knowing which direction to go and where the snags and perils are. But without the pixelated apparition of demagogue Thaksin Shinawatra inciting people and misleading them about what democracy is – now that his selfish motive and cruel intention have been laid bare – at least we won’t feel so haunted.