H Frank, when you say “I need to grab a drink on this because all along the Yellow Shirts have been non-violent and Red shirts violent…” You are simplifying, right?
Because I have a tape full of video showing PAD guards beating the crap out of people on Sep 3 (I think that was the date, one Red Shirt killed by them), you recall their shooting gums from the truck on Viphavadi-Rangsit, there are photos of them beating people at the airport, the senior PAD guard almost surely blew himself up in that jeep on Oct. 7, etc etc.
Perhaps you really want to say something like they didn’t use unprovoked violence, a point made by a number of people on this forum. Or perhaps you are suggesting that the Red Shirts depend on a strategy of violence.
But to edge into the idea that the PAD practiced non-violence is just wrong. They used to say it over and over and their followers believe that myth, but I’m pretty sure that you don’t.
I don’t think you meant to raise this debate again, but for history’ s sake, I feel I must note this.
I have just seen Jakaprob starting his campaign of spin by giving an interview on the BBC. How could he say that Thaksin is simply an observer in this whole unrest when for the past few days, he has been inciting the Reds to take action, via video and phone links? And he expects the government to do nothing when the Red army started to assault innocent people at the Thai Ministry of the Interior yesterday? In the end, their action is just as bad as the Yellows.
I’m heartily sick of jonfernquest’s drivel about “Thai Studies” being a nest of Marxists. This is simply rubbish as anyone who has ever attended a Thai studies conference knows. So jonfernquest’s ranting McCarthyism is to be condemned.
I don’t care much about the PREM vs TAKSIN fight..
As far as I’m concerned, things are moving along nicely!
Well, April 8th 2009 is certainly an important day and it will change Thailand forever. End of tonight we still might not get what we hope for.. but really we shouldn’t expect it to be so.
I’m elated that now at least half of people in Thailand with a remote interest in politics have started seeing THE many political players for what they actually are.. Imagine two years ago, people were still incredibly ignorant and you can tell by them oohing and aahing over stupid yellow stuff.. (but that’s hindsight, haha)
As of the future, all we need is for the people’s movement to gr0w.. even at a turtle’s pace it’s all good.. that’s when people understand that politics is not about elites business but more about distribution of wealth.. you choose the right leader, you better you gains..
– When people realize that, you can never change their mind… again ever.. it’s as simple as that..
– I’m very optimistic about the whole scenario.. things may seem slow for us, who are fighting right now.. no doubt about it but we’ll get there..
– 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, or even 10 years and I’m still young!
jonfernquest is clearly beside himself in this one. Andrew Walker is a Marxist who has fomented political instability in Thailand. Right, an Australian academic who runs a blog is the new Ho Chi Minh. And, after supporting the PAD and its antics, jonfernquest is applying double standards.
I once repect in you Dr. Thaksin as a smart politician. But now, what you are doing, is hazard to Thai economic, society and safety. I hope you stop to do more thing to damage Thailand. Don’t forget your children and your ex-wife still gonna lives there for a long.
Aside from the predictable comments from pro-yellow student groups brainwashed by Sondhi Lim’s media, like those at the ANU, I for one wish the reds all the power of right to now at last correct the perversions of the last three years under fascist puppet-Master Prem and the artifice of the Democrat Party led by Abhisit. No more should the masses put up with this nonsense to throw Thailand back forty or fifty years just for the benefit of the few elites and their cronies. Enough of the lies and propaganda against the real democrats.
I’ve found the idea of blocking the roads with 2 gas trucks each carrying 8 tones of fuel unbelievably insane. Once again they held the innocent residents of flat Dindaeng hostage. Is it coincidental that the chairman of Siam Gas, a company owning the truck deployed at Dindaeng, is Gen Chaisit Shinawatara? http://www.siamgas.com/Executive.php
Pictures of soldiers firing guns have been used in the red propaganda to deceive people into believing that all those bullets were fired at unarmed red shirts. In fact, they were fired at the bus that was driven with the intention of runing over the soldiers (the bus was seized by the protesters). Had the soldiers fired at the protesters, there would and should have been a lot who got killed or injured and, thus, there should have been at least some pictures of the dead/wounded bodies (the red shirts seem to be able to get hold of the pictures of most incidents). In fact, there has been only one protester reported seriously injured but is now in a safe condition at the hospital.
I know there are a few pro red shirts on here, but please be a bit more sensible.
Love this website, but have to disagree about the comments about the Reds tactics. To judge the Reds vs Yellows by their tactics totally misses the point, though I will admit in a PR sense they matter. But what PR do the Reds have? Nothing. The Thai media is worse the worthless, they are pro-establishment.
We must judge the Reds and Yellows based on goals and motives. The American revolutionaries used brutal and morally offensive tactics in order to achieve a higher value, freedom from tyranny. There comes at time when a long train of abuses and usurpations when it is the people’s right and duty to throw off the government and to provide new guards for their future security. I know nobody here disagress that it is up to the Thai people to decide when that time comes and how best to secure their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
The previous governments were legitimate and democratically elected. The PAD motives and goals were to reduce or eliminate democracy and protect the vested interests. Regardless of their tactics, their motives and goals were repugnant and un-democratic. If that’s what someone believes in fine, I guess, but be prepared for a many others to strenuously disagree.
The Abhisit government was not democratically formed, contrary to the spin of the establishment. The motives and goals of the Reds, while diverse, at least include a return to elections of governments based on the votes of the people.
When the dust settles, the approval of the media, the public, the international community and us pundits of how change happens or doesn’t happen is less important than whether that change happens.
Why would the national radio service do an interview with a person who has tried to actively foment political instability in this country for several years.
When the two gas trucks parked in front of Din Daeng housing complex explode then it will be end of Thai Studies Marxist la la fantasy land, but perhaps then they can try to blame the “elites” or “establishment” for this too, the “Reichstag Fire” gambit. What pitiful biased commentary by western academics. Suggestion: Start applying the same rules towards social order as you would in your own country because that is what you will be seeing shortly.
A friend mentioned me today that of Abhisit never glad confident morning again.Forgive the indulgence but here’s the entire “Lost Leader” by Robert Browning
The Lost Leader
I.
Just for a handful of silver he left us,
Just for a riband to stick in his coat—
Found the one gift of which fortune bereft us,
Lost all the others she lets us devote;
They, with the gold to give, doled him out silver,
So much was theirs who so little allowed:
How all our copper had gone for his service!
Rags—were they purple, his heart had been proud!
We that had loved him so, followed him, honoured him,
Lived in his mild and magnificent eye,
Learned his great language, caught his clear accents,
Made him our pattern to live and to die!
Shakespeare was of us, Milton was for us,
Burns, Shelley, were with us,—they watch from their graves!
He alone breaks from the van and the free-men,
—He alone sinks to the rear and the slaves!
II.
We shall march prospering,—not thro’ his presence;
Songs may inspirit us,—not from his lyre;
Deeds will be done,—while he boasts his quiescence,
Still bidding crouch whom the rest bade aspire:
Blot out his name, then, record one lost soul more,
One task more declined, one more foot-path untrod,
One more devils’-triumph and sorrow for angels,
One wrong more to man, one more insult to God!
Life’s night begins: let him never come back to us!
There would be doubt, hesitation and pain,
Forced praise on our part—the glimmer of twilight,
Never glad confident morning again!
Best fight on well, for we taught him—strike gallantly,
Menace our heart ere we master his own;
Then let him receive the new knowledge and wait us,
Pardoned in heaven, the first by the throne!
Sorry — didn’t mean to single you out. You’re not wrong, obviously. They call for elections (and for a few other things too…) but will the governments inconvenienced by the weekend’s debacle in Pattaya start to voice their support? That was my point. I expect such a chorus would become much louder if too many more of those 100,000s end up in hospital, or worse. From my current comfort and safety I hope (as I expect most readers do) that such bloodshed can be avoided.
I am a mere voice on a blog. I am not a member of any Thai political party nor am I campaigning in Thailand on any issue. I have no political influence and very little money or leverage. So I am a bit uncertain how I could possibly exert any influence on the formation on Thai democracy or the lack of it.
However, I am expressing my own view that I believe in democracy. That’s all. And I simply pointed out that 100s of 1000s of Thais seem to agree with that.
And yes – I am biased. Towards a peaceful democratic solution. Not that anything that I write will be taken notice of by Prem, Abhisit or Thaksin.
This is attrition raised to an art form. The trouble is, the government is far better able to maintain what Talleyrand once called a “masterly inactivity”, whereas the Reds are obliged to escalate their actions as time progresses or lose ground. When does an agent provocateur become an urban guerilla (he said, carefully avoiding the “t” word)?
In no way, other than in your mind perhaps, are a belief in “democracy” and correctly leaving Thai democracy to Thais mutually exclusive. Your extreme bias is glaringly evident!
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Montesano on Thailand’s crisis
I am bewildered that Fernquest could possibly mistake Montesano for a Marxist.
On the Songkran crisis of 2009
Thaksin was just on CNN (ASTV link) urging everyone to come together peacefully without violence.
Please pass the message on to his followers.
The yellow lesson
H Frank, when you say “I need to grab a drink on this because all along the Yellow Shirts have been non-violent and Red shirts violent…” You are simplifying, right?
Because I have a tape full of video showing PAD guards beating the crap out of people on Sep 3 (I think that was the date, one Red Shirt killed by them), you recall their shooting gums from the truck on Viphavadi-Rangsit, there are photos of them beating people at the airport, the senior PAD guard almost surely blew himself up in that jeep on Oct. 7, etc etc.
Perhaps you really want to say something like they didn’t use unprovoked violence, a point made by a number of people on this forum. Or perhaps you are suggesting that the Red Shirts depend on a strategy of violence.
But to edge into the idea that the PAD practiced non-violence is just wrong. They used to say it over and over and their followers believe that myth, but I’m pretty sure that you don’t.
I don’t think you meant to raise this debate again, but for history’ s sake, I feel I must note this.
On the Songkran crisis of 2009
Can anyone explain the logic behind burning tires and busses?
Maybe Jim Taylor who seems fairly close to the reds, or David Brown can help me understand.
Thanks in advance.
On the Songkran crisis of 2009
I have just seen Jakaprob starting his campaign of spin by giving an interview on the BBC. How could he say that Thaksin is simply an observer in this whole unrest when for the past few days, he has been inciting the Reds to take action, via video and phone links? And he expects the government to do nothing when the Red army started to assault innocent people at the Thai Ministry of the Interior yesterday? In the end, their action is just as bad as the Yellows.
Montesano on Thailand’s crisis
I’m heartily sick of jonfernquest’s drivel about “Thai Studies” being a nest of Marxists. This is simply rubbish as anyone who has ever attended a Thai studies conference knows. So jonfernquest’s ranting McCarthyism is to be condemned.
Reuters on the Thai political unrest
I don’t care much about the PREM vs TAKSIN fight..
As far as I’m concerned, things are moving along nicely!
Well, April 8th 2009 is certainly an important day and it will change Thailand forever. End of tonight we still might not get what we hope for.. but really we shouldn’t expect it to be so.
I’m elated that now at least half of people in Thailand with a remote interest in politics have started seeing THE many political players for what they actually are.. Imagine two years ago, people were still incredibly ignorant and you can tell by them oohing and aahing over stupid yellow stuff.. (but that’s hindsight, haha)
As of the future, all we need is for the people’s movement to gr0w.. even at a turtle’s pace it’s all good.. that’s when people understand that politics is not about elites business but more about distribution of wealth.. you choose the right leader, you better you gains..
– When people realize that, you can never change their mind… again ever.. it’s as simple as that..
– I’m very optimistic about the whole scenario.. things may seem slow for us, who are fighting right now.. no doubt about it but we’ll get there..
– 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, or even 10 years and I’m still young!
Andrew Walker on SBS radio
jonfernquest is clearly beside himself in this one. Andrew Walker is a Marxist who has fomented political instability in Thailand. Right, an Australian academic who runs a blog is the new Ho Chi Minh. And, after supporting the PAD and its antics, jonfernquest is applying double standards.
http://hi-thaksin.net/
I once repect in you Dr. Thaksin as a smart politician. But now, what you are doing, is hazard to Thai economic, society and safety. I hope you stop to do more thing to damage Thailand. Don’t forget your children and your ex-wife still gonna lives there for a long.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Aside from the predictable comments from pro-yellow student groups brainwashed by Sondhi Lim’s media, like those at the ANU, I for one wish the reds all the power of right to now at last correct the perversions of the last three years under fascist puppet-Master Prem and the artifice of the Democrat Party led by Abhisit. No more should the masses put up with this nonsense to throw Thailand back forty or fifty years just for the benefit of the few elites and their cronies. Enough of the lies and propaganda against the real democrats.
Photos of the crisis in Thailand
Flickr has loads of people uploading their photos of the unfolding events.
For example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/edgemalaysia/show/with/3437505540/
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
I’ve found the idea of blocking the roads with 2 gas trucks each carrying 8 tones of fuel unbelievably insane. Once again they held the innocent residents of flat Dindaeng hostage. Is it coincidental that the chairman of Siam Gas, a company owning the truck deployed at Dindaeng, is Gen Chaisit Shinawatara? http://www.siamgas.com/Executive.php
Pictures of soldiers firing guns have been used in the red propaganda to deceive people into believing that all those bullets were fired at unarmed red shirts. In fact, they were fired at the bus that was driven with the intention of runing over the soldiers (the bus was seized by the protesters). Had the soldiers fired at the protesters, there would and should have been a lot who got killed or injured and, thus, there should have been at least some pictures of the dead/wounded bodies (the red shirts seem to be able to get hold of the pictures of most incidents). In fact, there has been only one protester reported seriously injured but is now in a safe condition at the hospital.
I know there are a few pro red shirts on here, but please be a bit more sensible.
The yellow lesson
Love this website, but have to disagree about the comments about the Reds tactics. To judge the Reds vs Yellows by their tactics totally misses the point, though I will admit in a PR sense they matter. But what PR do the Reds have? Nothing. The Thai media is worse the worthless, they are pro-establishment.
We must judge the Reds and Yellows based on goals and motives. The American revolutionaries used brutal and morally offensive tactics in order to achieve a higher value, freedom from tyranny. There comes at time when a long train of abuses and usurpations when it is the people’s right and duty to throw off the government and to provide new guards for their future security. I know nobody here disagress that it is up to the Thai people to decide when that time comes and how best to secure their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
The previous governments were legitimate and democratically elected. The PAD motives and goals were to reduce or eliminate democracy and protect the vested interests. Regardless of their tactics, their motives and goals were repugnant and un-democratic. If that’s what someone believes in fine, I guess, but be prepared for a many others to strenuously disagree.
The Abhisit government was not democratically formed, contrary to the spin of the establishment. The motives and goals of the Reds, while diverse, at least include a return to elections of governments based on the votes of the people.
When the dust settles, the approval of the media, the public, the international community and us pundits of how change happens or doesn’t happen is less important than whether that change happens.
Andrew Walker on SBS radio
Why would the national radio service do an interview with a person who has tried to actively foment political instability in this country for several years.
When the two gas trucks parked in front of Din Daeng housing complex explode then it will be end of Thai Studies Marxist la la fantasy land, but perhaps then they can try to blame the “elites” or “establishment” for this too, the “Reichstag Fire” gambit. What pitiful biased commentary by western academics. Suggestion: Start applying the same rules towards social order as you would in your own country because that is what you will be seeing shortly.
The yellow lesson
A friend mentioned me today that of Abhisit never glad confident morning again.Forgive the indulgence but here’s the entire “Lost Leader” by Robert Browning
The Lost Leader
I.
Just for a handful of silver he left us,
Just for a riband to stick in his coat—
Found the one gift of which fortune bereft us,
Lost all the others she lets us devote;
They, with the gold to give, doled him out silver,
So much was theirs who so little allowed:
How all our copper had gone for his service!
Rags—were they purple, his heart had been proud!
We that had loved him so, followed him, honoured him,
Lived in his mild and magnificent eye,
Learned his great language, caught his clear accents,
Made him our pattern to live and to die!
Shakespeare was of us, Milton was for us,
Burns, Shelley, were with us,—they watch from their graves!
He alone breaks from the van and the free-men,
—He alone sinks to the rear and the slaves!
II.
We shall march prospering,—not thro’ his presence;
Songs may inspirit us,—not from his lyre;
Deeds will be done,—while he boasts his quiescence,
Still bidding crouch whom the rest bade aspire:
Blot out his name, then, record one lost soul more,
One task more declined, one more foot-path untrod,
One more devils’-triumph and sorrow for angels,
One wrong more to man, one more insult to God!
Life’s night begins: let him never come back to us!
There would be doubt, hesitation and pain,
Forced praise on our part—the glimmer of twilight,
Never glad confident morning again!
Best fight on well, for we taught him—strike gallantly,
Menace our heart ere we master his own;
Then let him receive the new knowledge and wait us,
Pardoned in heaven, the first by the throne!
Robert Browning
DFAT raises its Bangkok travel warning
Andrew,
Sorry — didn’t mean to single you out. You’re not wrong, obviously. They call for elections (and for a few other things too…) but will the governments inconvenienced by the weekend’s debacle in Pattaya start to voice their support? That was my point. I expect such a chorus would become much louder if too many more of those 100,000s end up in hospital, or worse. From my current comfort and safety I hope (as I expect most readers do) that such bloodshed can be avoided.
Thanks for your contributions.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Crackdown on the reds?
bosunj –
I am a mere voice on a blog. I am not a member of any Thai political party nor am I campaigning in Thailand on any issue. I have no political influence and very little money or leverage. So I am a bit uncertain how I could possibly exert any influence on the formation on Thai democracy or the lack of it.
However, I am expressing my own view that I believe in democracy. That’s all. And I simply pointed out that 100s of 1000s of Thais seem to agree with that.
And yes – I am biased. Towards a peaceful democratic solution. Not that anything that I write will be taken notice of by Prem, Abhisit or Thaksin.
Montesano on Thailand’s crisis
This is attrition raised to an art form. The trouble is, the government is far better able to maintain what Talleyrand once called a “masterly inactivity”, whereas the Reds are obliged to escalate their actions as time progresses or lose ground. When does an agent provocateur become an urban guerilla (he said, carefully avoiding the “t” word)?
Crackdown on the reds?
Vethormr – now now – it’s not a foreigner’s place to make comments that might be construed as “telling the Thais what to do.”
But of course, they want all the benefits of being part of the international community…
Crackdown on the reds?
Spooner:
In no way, other than in your mind perhaps, are a belief in “democracy” and correctly leaving Thai democracy to Thais mutually exclusive. Your extreme bias is glaringly evident!