Correction, in my previous post i said “Martial law has apparently being implemented” which is incorrect, i should have said ”
a state of emergency has been declared”
I apologize if my error has offended anyone.
It appears as Stephen doesn’t read the news. Above is a little truth behind the reality of Thailand at the moment.
As well today the Asean summit was invaded by protesters , and postphooned, although it is doubtful any Asean nations leaders would attend were the event rescheduled.
Martial law has apparently being implemented and two protestors taken to hospital with gun shot wounds.
Lets hope the protesters get what they want a truly demorcratic Thailand not the farce they have now.
apology to Andrew for missing out the tagline at the top and thanks Nich.
Amberwaves: I have to disagree with you. I reckon that BKK people have tolerated so much since the PAD days, and it has now proved that they are no longer willing to put up with it regardless of whoever does it.
The incident at the ASEAN summit today clearly reflects the true color of the red shirts.
Surely this could have been foreseen and the conference hosted by Malaysia. Even on short notice, there would have been far less negative publicity for Abhisit and the apparent victory for “the Reds” would have never occurred. And the conference could have actually been held, despite my inclination to believe that whatever was going to be agreed upon at the conference would have already been agreed upon by Humphrey Appleby types prior.
However, that news sources are exponentially reporting this reactionary course again, without suggesting a clear political aim for the Reds, other than to highlight lampooning the opposition (Democrat Party) with righteous claims of injustice and the Thaksinist-Orwellian fallacy, doesn’t bode for more progression than when this all happened last year.
Is the recipe followed by the yellow shirts last year being followed by the red shirts this year, and will we all get the same political curry with slightly different flavouring? Will we be in for the same dish next year?
Personally I hope we get a green chicken curry and environmental fundamentalists emerge! I am surprised the curry metaphor hasn’t been used yet. Or has it?
How I know:
I saw one sister on TV telling newsreporters (after you posted) that both she & Somchai’s wife (other sister ) are still in Thailand and have no intention of leaving. I must have bad eyesight or should not believe my own eyes – what do you think ?
How I dont know:
You seem to know their names & where they are better than me, I am not familar with Taksin’s children or their names. So I must bow my head to your sources. So, I dont know and you do.
Clearly a grand PMThaksin-Reds victory and their many sympathizers, foreign and Thai, in NM must be rejoicing. For me it is another very sad day – a very dark day in fact – for Thailand. For one, in the midst of the global recession, this is not merely about Thai lives but the billions that constitute ASEAN +6… All for one man’s 7O billion baht assets and his court cases and his very twisted version of Thai democracy…
As of 3 pm Pattaya time on the 11th, the dialogue-partner leaders thought they had never seen a leader so dumb and inept as Abhisit. The foreign dignitaries from China and others ready to meet their Asean counterparts must be shaking their heads in puzzlement how the current Thai government under an Oxford-educated person has failed to host this important event. Will someone in charge of security like Suthep be held responsible for this fiasco ?
Of course one can also blame Newin for ordering an attack on the Reds first and the Reds dutily responded. For the brave Reds going back to their hometowns for Songkran, I wish all of you three cheers — enjoy your holidays and come back to resume the fight against this illegitimate govt.
I had actually started to sympathize and identify with the ‘Red’ movement. No one likes invisible hands in politics supplanting the will of the people.
However, I know a 7 month pregnant woman, presently former red shirt supporter, now totally against the red tide. The reason? She went to Ramathibodi for a checkup, and then had to spend 5 hours waiting to go home… and everyone knows not to piss off a pregnant woman.
The loss of face at the ASEAN, with leaders of foreign countries here, totally destroy whatever goodwill the Red Shirt enjoyed. At this moment in time, they have proved not to be just as bad as, but worse than the PAD ever was when they closed the airport. Just as tourism was starting to get better with the ASEAN summit in Pattaya, these protests have totally destroyed whatever income the locals at Pattaya could have looked forward to.
The best part is, during all these events, the ‘leaders’ of the red shirt are never there, they hide behind, then say they did not ‘order’ anything and have no idea what is going on… at least in the PAD’s case, Chamlong, Sonthi, et al were in the front lines… (not exactly complimenting them, but they were more courageous)
Again, I believe what they have done puts the PAD airport closure to shame; they have risen the bar and made a total mockery of the country, all for 1 man who won’t sacrifice his own family for his cause.
Khun Wihphu says that he believes Thailand is “100 times” more corrupt than the US. I would actually say that they are not far apart at all. As Wihphu correctly says, corruption is at nearly every level of society while it is primarily at the top in the US. But because top officials can declare that corruption is not really corruption (for example, torture isn’t torture) and rewrite the laws to make crimes no longer crimes, the statistics are hard to normalize.
About 20 years ago, Laura Summers of Hull University had a great analysis of corruption in Cambodian society. She said that it stems from an interpretation of Kamma, in which it is felt that corruption is one of the perks of having achieved status. She said that an impoverished system of accountability is the result, because nobody wanted to challenge higher-status people their “right” to steal from their constituents.
If anyone can find this online, it would be helpful.
Finally, we all owe Wihphu some praise for FINALLY stating that there is a huge difference between loving THIS king and assessing (and honestly discussing) the accomplishments of ANY Thai king (and the institution of the Monarchy itself). This is what the debate over lese majeste is, IMHO, primarily about.
You talk rubbish Amber waves. Bangkok people were genuinely annoyed by what the red shirts did on Thursday.Big burly guys would have got the same treatment.
I agree with SidhS, that Thaksin (who is now running the reds from his bunker, like some villian in a super hero movie, with his nightly video instructions to the faithful) has lost touch with reality.
It is one thing to close an airport – most Thai people don’t use that facility. Thei boss might, but Somchai and his girlfriend Lek only use it for going on vacation.
Therefore, to shut down the busiest bus exchange (Victory Monument) and try to close off a street (Silom Rd as in the video) is not the way to win friends, because that effects them immediately.
Now today, Saturday, you’ve got the local Pattaya people angry.
These people were looking forward to a good Songkran trade with the ASEAN people in town. And, remember, many of these people who will now loose money over the holidays, are from a similar demographic to the “core” of the red shirt mob.
Even more important, the world media is now watching.
The media will not focus on the genuine grievances of many of the protesters. It will be shown around the world, as one gang fighting another.Further, they will continue to remind the world that our “super villian” is a “convicted felon”.
This is stupidity.
Careful Observer: First of all, I don’t believe for a moment that you are not a PAD supporter. But that really doesn’t matter.
Just a few points: I don’t know anyone who reported that the UDD reached their goal, but you seem to give credibility to foreign news agencies, who all gave estimates of 100,000 (attributed to police, in some cases by name).
You say the 100,000 figures for PAD rallies are accurate, can you tell us why you say that? Please try the exercise of measuring Royal Plaza and estimating how many people can fit in (using formulas you can easily find by Googling.)
In stating that the PAD 2006 rallies were 100,000 plus, you leave the impression that their 2008 rallies were less than 100,000, meaning that Wednesday’s Red Shirt rally was bigger than anything the PAD staged in 2008. Would that be correct?
The reason people on the blog don’t highlight the attack on the Channel 3 reporter _ please update us on his condition, BTW _ is that it was widely reported in the mainstream Thai media, and this forum is meant for alternative views and news, not repeating the what is already easily available elsewhere.
You will note that they posted your critical opinions. Want more? Start your own blog. That’s what it’s all about.
t4e #10, I find it rather interesting that you “know” that PMThaksin’s sisters have not left but “don’t know” if his wife and children has! I’d like to ask how did you “know” and “don’t know”???
My sources are public news websites and I rely on Thairath, The Nation, Bangkok Post, Matichon and Manager (I often browse them in that order too). Ofcourse they may be inaccurate and if you have more reliable sources, I hope you’ll be kind enough to share it with NM readers…
Amberwaves #9. If you are refering to the PAD, they started out as naive as the Reds now – until hired goons in black beat up an old protestor and a women in front of Central World with policemen refusing to intervene (this was when Thaksin was still PM). In 2008 during PMSamak’s leadership, the PAD also got another lesson at Udonthani when the Reds breached the police cordon and beat up the yellow to a pulp. The Reds then attempted an attack in Bangkok but now the Yellows has learnt the dark ways of the Thai street politics and, armed to the teeth, beat back the Reds – who dare not venture close to PAD rallies ever again (it was ‘Third Hand’ attacks and Oct7 crackdown since…).
Besides, Amberwaves, from the VDO it looks like normal Bangkok citizens taking things into their own hands and not some form of organized attacks experienced by PAD. I see the blocking of the city’s arteries as a tactical blunder on the part of the Red leadership. Personally, I will never mess with a Thai stuck in traffic – particularly behind the wheels. I’ve seen many perfectly cool, very nice and sane people go mad over the years.
it’s no point to argue with these people in new mandala.. Most of them here have already set target in their minds.
Not at all. I’m not a frequent poster, but I do follow the comments closely. There’s probably nobody here with whom I agree 100%, but most seem committed to reasoned debate based on logic and facts. Many of the people here are academics or are familiar with academic literature, and tend to take a longer view of things.
Take this for example. Fifty years ago, it wasn’t uncommon to see writers argue that predominantly Roman Catholic countries were unfit for democracy. The arguments given then weren’t all too different from some of the arguments Wiphu advances now about Thailand’s unsuitability for democracy. The evidence cited then was the poor track-record of democracies outside of the English-speaking world and Scandinavia (mostly Protestant). The experience of the following 50 years has made such arguments almost laughable today.
No democracy is perfect. When Thaksin was at the height of his popularity, his defenders (which included most Thais back then, but thankfully not myself) argued this point to justify his rule. Now that Thaksin’s out of power, it’s the anti-Thaksin crowd that argues about the imperfections of democracy to justify their positions. So we can all agree that democracy isn’t perfect. And that gets us precisely nowhere. You have to consider the alternatives before you can argue that democracy isn’t suitable for Thailand. If not democracy, then what? How about a mix of “managed democracy,” royalism and bureaucratic polity? All right, that’s the system that Thailand has basically had since 1932. Has it worked up to now? One argument in favor is that perhaps it helped keep Thailand safe from communism during the Cold War. But whether you agree with that or not, that point is moot since the Cold War is over. So where does that leave us? Well, Thailand managed a rapid pace of economic growth in the 80s and 90s under the current system. But that system of management also gave us the 1997 crisis. Furthermore, while Thailand has seen some impressive economic growth over the years, economic and social disparities have risen, which have contributed greatly to the deep divisions in society today. Social divisions on this scale throughout world history are seldom the work of a single man (Thaksin, as his detractors would argue). Nor are social divisions unique to Thailand. In most countries, democratic political institutions develop in order to moderate and mediate these social tensions by giving different interests from various groups in society a seat at the table. It is because Thailand isn’t sufficiently democratic that it deprives many sectors of society a voice at the table. And it is because they are denied a voice that so many are willing to take to the streets.
That’s not to say that all would be fine and dandy if Thaksin had stayed in power. Thaksin was no revolutionary or reformer – IMHO, he was just merely a creature of the same establishment he’s now fighting against. Indeed, he originally came to power with support of the establishment. He didn’t want to overthow the establishment – he just wanted to ensure that he had a central role within that establishment. This eventually proved to be too much for the current leaders of the establishment (especially as Thaksin’s mass electoral base reduced the leverage the establishment had over him), and the rest is history.
Do you know that you do not need to conduct a protest in Thailand?
Isn’t that great?
In the US, American are require to have a permit.
I agree Thailand would do well to require demonstration permits be obtained through a fair and impartial process before groups can hold protests.
For any Thai out there, please email me at [email protected] if you have examples or any inputs. I think most non-Thais think we love our king for no reason, but we have a reason to love our CURRENT King.
Ironically, I think most foreign scholars are much better educated about the history of the Ninth Reign than the vast majority of Thais. There are many good reasons to support and respect the current King. The Thai media make sure that the Thai people are well aware of these. But there are also a lot of grey areas in Rama IX’s history as well. These are not widely reported. It’s hard to respect someone’s judgment if they’ve only heard one side of the story. My hunch is that most Thais (but not necessarily an overwhelming majority) would still respect the the King even if they saw the full record. So what’s wrong with openly discussing that record, especially if you’re so confident that Thai’s will always love Rama IX regardless?
Thanks Nich.
They are certainly very useful. I think a complementary story is what ideas and aspirations the 2 million+ Burmese working in Thailand (with scattered groups of democratic activists) would take back from the Thai experiences with democracy and what impacts they might have in future Burmese politics.
Stephan: If you are inside Thailand you might have difficulty purchasing the book, but if you look hard enough you should be able to find it.
IMO, there’s probably not much point engaging further until you have read it (so you at least can see another side to the story you have always been told).
It’s strange that the reasons cited for not having a democracy in Thailand are the very reasons why there is no democracy here!
In Thailand specificially, some of the main reasons for corruption are lack of accountability, lack of free expression, overt secrecy and lack of transparency, underqualified judgment on the behalf of the media and public in general, misuse of existing legislation to handcuff legitimate expression, preoccupation with the country’s image above all else (they should have used water cannon against the Red Shirts long ago), general society’s acceptance and use of double standards, overt selfishness and mindless envy, etc. Not that these things don’t exist in the US and elsewhere to some extent, but here in Thailand they are ingrained, literally.
Your reaction to all this is to cite democracy as another enemy! No need to quote Shakespeare or anyone else that has already well described the underlying factors that have led to Thailand’s current social anarchy, just keep in mind that all those fearful things you cite have been in place in the west for centuries and so far no lese majeste imprisonments and no overthrow of the US government because people have learned, through spillage of blood and education, that they have to fight for freedom.
Just quickly, my sense (for what it’s worth) is that such chaos (or signs of possible chaos) serves merely to reinforce one of the major prejudices that is cultivated by the Burmese regime. Even a cursory examination of a Burmese newspaper or television broadcast highlights the deeply negative interpretations of foreign lands promulgated in that country’s media. Coverage of how bad things are in Iraq, in India and in the United States, etc, etc, are standard fodder. There isn’t a school shooting, road-side bomb or allegation of corruption that doesn’t get a hearing if it meets the government’s immediate propaganda needs.
Protests calling for Abhisit and the Privy Councillors to stand aside are trickier, of course, and I haven’t seen any official Burmese spin on these yet. But I reckon that Thailand’s recent difficulties with implementing electoral democracy (and the varied developments in countries like Indonesia, Cambodia and Singapore over the past decade) all send a strong message to those who hope to stay in charge in Burma. Their enduring caution about any rapid shift to a democratic system where they are forced to relinquish control is a defining part of their plans for the 2010 elections. I expect they see the way that Thai establishment forces (the military, the palace, etc, etc) are now in a fight to the death as particularly unbecoming such important national guardians. The Burmese generals no doubt have a vision of a “democratic” future where their authority remains unchallenged.
In Pattaya they may also get a sense of the sort of security resources available to the Thai government. That may, as much as anything, give them some ideas about how a “democratic” government can attempt to counter demonstrations and provocations on this scale. They will be taking notes, for sure.
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On lèse majesté
Correction, in my previous post i said “Martial law has apparently being implemented” which is incorrect, i should have said ”
a state of emergency has been declared”
I apologize if my error has offended anyone.
On lèse majesté
http://photojourn.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/thailand-on-the-edge-ahead-of-mass-pro-democracy-protest/
It appears as Stephen doesn’t read the news. Above is a little truth behind the reality of Thailand at the moment.
As well today the Asean summit was invaded by protesters , and postphooned, although it is doubtful any Asean nations leaders would attend were the event rescheduled.
Martial law has apparently being implemented and two protestors taken to hospital with gun shot wounds.
Lets hope the protesters get what they want a truly demorcratic Thailand not the farce they have now.
Closing the streets at Victory Monument
apology to Andrew for missing out the tagline at the top and thanks Nich.
Amberwaves: I have to disagree with you. I reckon that BKK people have tolerated so much since the PAD days, and it has now proved that they are no longer willing to put up with it regardless of whoever does it.
The incident at the ASEAN summit today clearly reflects the true color of the red shirts.
East Asia Summit off; what next in Thai drama?
Surely this could have been foreseen and the conference hosted by Malaysia. Even on short notice, there would have been far less negative publicity for Abhisit and the apparent victory for “the Reds” would have never occurred. And the conference could have actually been held, despite my inclination to believe that whatever was going to be agreed upon at the conference would have already been agreed upon by Humphrey Appleby types prior.
However, that news sources are exponentially reporting this reactionary course again, without suggesting a clear political aim for the Reds, other than to highlight lampooning the opposition (Democrat Party) with righteous claims of injustice and the Thaksinist-Orwellian fallacy, doesn’t bode for more progression than when this all happened last year.
Is the recipe followed by the yellow shirts last year being followed by the red shirts this year, and will we all get the same political curry with slightly different flavouring? Will we be in for the same dish next year?
Personally I hope we get a green chicken curry and environmental fundamentalists emerge! I am surprised the curry metaphor hasn’t been used yet. Or has it?
Imagine the gridlock: Is this how it’s going to happen?
Sid S
How I know:
I saw one sister on TV telling newsreporters (after you posted) that both she & Somchai’s wife (other sister ) are still in Thailand and have no intention of leaving. I must have bad eyesight or should not believe my own eyes – what do you think ?
How I dont know:
You seem to know their names & where they are better than me, I am not familar with Taksin’s children or their names. So I must bow my head to your sources. So, I dont know and you do.
I am not a Thai ,just visiting Bangkok
t4e
East Asia Summit off; what next in Thai drama?
Clearly a grand PMThaksin-Reds victory and their many sympathizers, foreign and Thai, in NM must be rejoicing. For me it is another very sad day – a very dark day in fact – for Thailand. For one, in the midst of the global recession, this is not merely about Thai lives but the billions that constitute ASEAN +6… All for one man’s 7O billion baht assets and his court cases and his very twisted version of Thai democracy…
Red shirts on the march
As of 3 pm Pattaya time on the 11th, the dialogue-partner leaders thought they had never seen a leader so dumb and inept as Abhisit. The foreign dignitaries from China and others ready to meet their Asean counterparts must be shaking their heads in puzzlement how the current Thai government under an Oxford-educated person has failed to host this important event. Will someone in charge of security like Suthep be held responsible for this fiasco ?
Of course one can also blame Newin for ordering an attack on the Reds first and the Reds dutily responded. For the brave Reds going back to their hometowns for Songkran, I wish all of you three cheers — enjoy your holidays and come back to resume the fight against this illegitimate govt.
Closing the streets at Victory Monument
I have to agree with Regular Reader.
I had actually started to sympathize and identify with the ‘Red’ movement. No one likes invisible hands in politics supplanting the will of the people.
However, I know a 7 month pregnant woman, presently former red shirt supporter, now totally against the red tide. The reason? She went to Ramathibodi for a checkup, and then had to spend 5 hours waiting to go home… and everyone knows not to piss off a pregnant woman.
The loss of face at the ASEAN, with leaders of foreign countries here, totally destroy whatever goodwill the Red Shirt enjoyed. At this moment in time, they have proved not to be just as bad as, but worse than the PAD ever was when they closed the airport. Just as tourism was starting to get better with the ASEAN summit in Pattaya, these protests have totally destroyed whatever income the locals at Pattaya could have looked forward to.
The best part is, during all these events, the ‘leaders’ of the red shirt are never there, they hide behind, then say they did not ‘order’ anything and have no idea what is going on… at least in the PAD’s case, Chamlong, Sonthi, et al were in the front lines… (not exactly complimenting them, but they were more courageous)
Again, I believe what they have done puts the PAD airport closure to shame; they have risen the bar and made a total mockery of the country, all for 1 man who won’t sacrifice his own family for his cause.
The King Never Smiles?
I very much appreciate Khum Wihphu’s very reasonable comments above. Here are some links that may be helpful.
BangkokPundit commented on the broad accusations of corruption against Thaksin. This is from December 2005
http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2005/12/thailand-and-corruption.html
Transparency International has a branch in Thailand. THey posted their Top Ten Myths about corruption in Thailand.
http://www.transparency-thailand.org/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=37
Khun Wihphu says that he believes Thailand is “100 times” more corrupt than the US. I would actually say that they are not far apart at all. As Wihphu correctly says, corruption is at nearly every level of society while it is primarily at the top in the US. But because top officials can declare that corruption is not really corruption (for example, torture isn’t torture) and rewrite the laws to make crimes no longer crimes, the statistics are hard to normalize.
About 20 years ago, Laura Summers of Hull University had a great analysis of corruption in Cambodian society. She said that it stems from an interpretation of Kamma, in which it is felt that corruption is one of the perks of having achieved status. She said that an impoverished system of accountability is the result, because nobody wanted to challenge higher-status people their “right” to steal from their constituents.
If anyone can find this online, it would be helpful.
Finally, we all owe Wihphu some praise for FINALLY stating that there is a huge difference between loving THIS king and assessing (and honestly discussing) the accomplishments of ANY Thai king (and the institution of the Monarchy itself). This is what the debate over lese majeste is, IMHO, primarily about.
Closing the streets at Victory Monument
You talk rubbish Amber waves. Bangkok people were genuinely annoyed by what the red shirts did on Thursday.Big burly guys would have got the same treatment.
I agree with SidhS, that Thaksin (who is now running the reds from his bunker, like some villian in a super hero movie, with his nightly video instructions to the faithful) has lost touch with reality.
It is one thing to close an airport – most Thai people don’t use that facility. Thei boss might, but Somchai and his girlfriend Lek only use it for going on vacation.
Therefore, to shut down the busiest bus exchange (Victory Monument) and try to close off a street (Silom Rd as in the video) is not the way to win friends, because that effects them immediately.
Now today, Saturday, you’ve got the local Pattaya people angry.
These people were looking forward to a good Songkran trade with the ASEAN people in town. And, remember, many of these people who will now loose money over the holidays, are from a similar demographic to the “core” of the red shirt mob.
Even more important, the world media is now watching.
The media will not focus on the genuine grievances of many of the protesters. It will be shown around the world, as one gang fighting another.Further, they will continue to remind the world that our “super villian” is a “convicted felon”.
This is stupidity.
Red shirts on the march
Careful Observer: First of all, I don’t believe for a moment that you are not a PAD supporter. But that really doesn’t matter.
Just a few points: I don’t know anyone who reported that the UDD reached their goal, but you seem to give credibility to foreign news agencies, who all gave estimates of 100,000 (attributed to police, in some cases by name).
You say the 100,000 figures for PAD rallies are accurate, can you tell us why you say that? Please try the exercise of measuring Royal Plaza and estimating how many people can fit in (using formulas you can easily find by Googling.)
In stating that the PAD 2006 rallies were 100,000 plus, you leave the impression that their 2008 rallies were less than 100,000, meaning that Wednesday’s Red Shirt rally was bigger than anything the PAD staged in 2008. Would that be correct?
The reason people on the blog don’t highlight the attack on the Channel 3 reporter _ please update us on his condition, BTW _ is that it was widely reported in the mainstream Thai media, and this forum is meant for alternative views and news, not repeating the what is already easily available elsewhere.
You will note that they posted your critical opinions. Want more? Start your own blog. That’s what it’s all about.
Imagine the gridlock: Is this how it’s going to happen?
t4e #10, I find it rather interesting that you “know” that PMThaksin’s sisters have not left but “don’t know” if his wife and children has! I’d like to ask how did you “know” and “don’t know”???
My sources are public news websites and I rely on Thairath, The Nation, Bangkok Post, Matichon and Manager (I often browse them in that order too). Ofcourse they may be inaccurate and if you have more reliable sources, I hope you’ll be kind enough to share it with NM readers…
Closing the streets at Victory Monument
Amberwaves #9. If you are refering to the PAD, they started out as naive as the Reds now – until hired goons in black beat up an old protestor and a women in front of Central World with policemen refusing to intervene (this was when Thaksin was still PM). In 2008 during PMSamak’s leadership, the PAD also got another lesson at Udonthani when the Reds breached the police cordon and beat up the yellow to a pulp. The Reds then attempted an attack in Bangkok but now the Yellows has learnt the dark ways of the Thai street politics and, armed to the teeth, beat back the Reds – who dare not venture close to PAD rallies ever again (it was ‘Third Hand’ attacks and Oct7 crackdown since…).
Besides, Amberwaves, from the VDO it looks like normal Bangkok citizens taking things into their own hands and not some form of organized attacks experienced by PAD. I see the blocking of the city’s arteries as a tactical blunder on the part of the Red leadership. Personally, I will never mess with a Thai stuck in traffic – particularly behind the wheels. I’ve seen many perfectly cool, very nice and sane people go mad over the years.
The King Never Smiles?
it’s no point to argue with these people in new mandala.. Most of them here have already set target in their minds.
Not at all. I’m not a frequent poster, but I do follow the comments closely. There’s probably nobody here with whom I agree 100%, but most seem committed to reasoned debate based on logic and facts. Many of the people here are academics or are familiar with academic literature, and tend to take a longer view of things.
Take this for example. Fifty years ago, it wasn’t uncommon to see writers argue that predominantly Roman Catholic countries were unfit for democracy. The arguments given then weren’t all too different from some of the arguments Wiphu advances now about Thailand’s unsuitability for democracy. The evidence cited then was the poor track-record of democracies outside of the English-speaking world and Scandinavia (mostly Protestant). The experience of the following 50 years has made such arguments almost laughable today.
No democracy is perfect. When Thaksin was at the height of his popularity, his defenders (which included most Thais back then, but thankfully not myself) argued this point to justify his rule. Now that Thaksin’s out of power, it’s the anti-Thaksin crowd that argues about the imperfections of democracy to justify their positions. So we can all agree that democracy isn’t perfect. And that gets us precisely nowhere. You have to consider the alternatives before you can argue that democracy isn’t suitable for Thailand. If not democracy, then what? How about a mix of “managed democracy,” royalism and bureaucratic polity? All right, that’s the system that Thailand has basically had since 1932. Has it worked up to now? One argument in favor is that perhaps it helped keep Thailand safe from communism during the Cold War. But whether you agree with that or not, that point is moot since the Cold War is over. So where does that leave us? Well, Thailand managed a rapid pace of economic growth in the 80s and 90s under the current system. But that system of management also gave us the 1997 crisis. Furthermore, while Thailand has seen some impressive economic growth over the years, economic and social disparities have risen, which have contributed greatly to the deep divisions in society today. Social divisions on this scale throughout world history are seldom the work of a single man (Thaksin, as his detractors would argue). Nor are social divisions unique to Thailand. In most countries, democratic political institutions develop in order to moderate and mediate these social tensions by giving different interests from various groups in society a seat at the table. It is because Thailand isn’t sufficiently democratic that it deprives many sectors of society a voice at the table. And it is because they are denied a voice that so many are willing to take to the streets.
That’s not to say that all would be fine and dandy if Thaksin had stayed in power. Thaksin was no revolutionary or reformer – IMHO, he was just merely a creature of the same establishment he’s now fighting against. Indeed, he originally came to power with support of the establishment. He didn’t want to overthow the establishment – he just wanted to ensure that he had a central role within that establishment. This eventually proved to be too much for the current leaders of the establishment (especially as Thaksin’s mass electoral base reduced the leverage the establishment had over him), and the rest is history.
Do you know that you do not need to conduct a protest in Thailand?
Isn’t that great?
In the US, American are require to have a permit.
I agree Thailand would do well to require demonstration permits be obtained through a fair and impartial process before groups can hold protests.
For any Thai out there, please email me at [email protected] if you have examples or any inputs. I think most non-Thais think we love our king for no reason, but we have a reason to love our CURRENT King.
Ironically, I think most foreign scholars are much better educated about the history of the Ninth Reign than the vast majority of Thais. There are many good reasons to support and respect the current King. The Thai media make sure that the Thai people are well aware of these. But there are also a lot of grey areas in Rama IX’s history as well. These are not widely reported. It’s hard to respect someone’s judgment if they’ve only heard one side of the story. My hunch is that most Thais (but not necessarily an overwhelming majority) would still respect the the King even if they saw the full record. So what’s wrong with openly discussing that record, especially if you’re so confident that Thai’s will always love Rama IX regardless?
Reuters on the Thai political unrest
Thanks Nich.
They are certainly very useful. I think a complementary story is what ideas and aspirations the 2 million+ Burmese working in Thailand (with scattered groups of democratic activists) would take back from the Thai experiences with democracy and what impacts they might have in future Burmese politics.
On lèse majesté
Oh poor Stephen learn to read English there was no threat .
But most of all please define “we ” whom do you claim to speak for ? all of Thailand perhaps ?
On lèse majesté
PS. Stephan, you might have to be careful in seeking out the book (I don’t want to put you in any trouble or in jail!)
On lèse majesté
Stephan: If you are inside Thailand you might have difficulty purchasing the book, but if you look hard enough you should be able to find it.
IMO, there’s probably not much point engaging further until you have read it (so you at least can see another side to the story you have always been told).
The King Never Smiles?
It’s strange that the reasons cited for not having a democracy in Thailand are the very reasons why there is no democracy here!
In Thailand specificially, some of the main reasons for corruption are lack of accountability, lack of free expression, overt secrecy and lack of transparency, underqualified judgment on the behalf of the media and public in general, misuse of existing legislation to handcuff legitimate expression, preoccupation with the country’s image above all else (they should have used water cannon against the Red Shirts long ago), general society’s acceptance and use of double standards, overt selfishness and mindless envy, etc. Not that these things don’t exist in the US and elsewhere to some extent, but here in Thailand they are ingrained, literally.
Your reaction to all this is to cite democracy as another enemy! No need to quote Shakespeare or anyone else that has already well described the underlying factors that have led to Thailand’s current social anarchy, just keep in mind that all those fearful things you cite have been in place in the west for centuries and so far no lese majeste imprisonments and no overthrow of the US government because people have learned, through spillage of blood and education, that they have to fight for freedom.
Reuters on the Thai political unrest
Sidh,
Thanks for your query.
Just quickly, my sense (for what it’s worth) is that such chaos (or signs of possible chaos) serves merely to reinforce one of the major prejudices that is cultivated by the Burmese regime. Even a cursory examination of a Burmese newspaper or television broadcast highlights the deeply negative interpretations of foreign lands promulgated in that country’s media. Coverage of how bad things are in Iraq, in India and in the United States, etc, etc, are standard fodder. There isn’t a school shooting, road-side bomb or allegation of corruption that doesn’t get a hearing if it meets the government’s immediate propaganda needs.
Protests calling for Abhisit and the Privy Councillors to stand aside are trickier, of course, and I haven’t seen any official Burmese spin on these yet. But I reckon that Thailand’s recent difficulties with implementing electoral democracy (and the varied developments in countries like Indonesia, Cambodia and Singapore over the past decade) all send a strong message to those who hope to stay in charge in Burma. Their enduring caution about any rapid shift to a democratic system where they are forced to relinquish control is a defining part of their plans for the 2010 elections. I expect they see the way that Thai establishment forces (the military, the palace, etc, etc) are now in a fight to the death as particularly unbecoming such important national guardians. The Burmese generals no doubt have a vision of a “democratic” future where their authority remains unchallenged.
In Pattaya they may also get a sense of the sort of security resources available to the Thai government. That may, as much as anything, give them some ideas about how a “democratic” government can attempt to counter demonstrations and provocations on this scale. They will be taking notes, for sure.
Hope those speculations prove somehow useful.
Best wishes to all,
Nich