Re comment no. 41, Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 9, 2009 at 12:07 pm:
I hesitate to condescend, but it is so easy to do. Those bigger prisons you allude to proudly paid for by you will hold an increasing number of Thais, my friend, rather than foreigners, and you will soon find yourselves another Burmese style banana republic. This attitude of the pot calling the kettle black is not an unfamiliar error in mental reasoning, and thus easily appreciated by the foreigner. Because so many people subscribe to a dumb idea does not make it not dumb. As to foreigners not wanting the king or monarchy, get off that ivory pedestal you are on and listen to what people are saying. It should be embarrassing for you, by the way, to have foreigners solicit for your freedom rather than you doing it yourself. As to the right of foreigners to lobby one way or the other, of course there is a right. And often an obligation, something many Thai people don’t seem to appreciate. I have a child and grandchildren, a Thai wife and family and friends here, and don’t want any of them to face stupid lese majeste charges because an ignoramus takes offense and tries to put them in prison for stating the obvious or for putting forth a legitimate item of speech that no one is qualified to be offended by. Your attempt to teach foreigners is like that old anecdote of condescension told about Ben Franklin. He was accompanying a British general on a tour of the colonies and the British general noticed that colonial troops were conducting themselves in admirable fashion. The general said to Franklin, “I see you have taught your men to march in formation.” To which Franklin replied, “General, you can teach monkies to do that!”
Point, of course, is that we are well ahead of you and there is no need to be abusive, condescending or to resort to name-calling. Because we do not agree does not mean we do not understand. When you do the opposite – that is, fail to understand because you do not agree – then you have remained victim of your own social failure. That carries over into this mad pursuit of punishing those who have a valid opinion relating to the monarchy or other subjects here in Thailand. And I suspect this is why what some regard as trash like Chalerm and Chavalit and Sanan and Sanoh and Thaksin remain so loved by so many. There is no need for common sense. Don’t try to defend the lese majeste laws by denouncing others or by hoping that they all end up in immoral inhumane Thai prisons. Is there not a Thai saying that those who wish this upon their opponents will themselves fall prey to their own ignorance?
To: Giles, John and Western Media
I would suggest that if Thai Monachy makes you uncomfotable, it is your choice to leave in China, Vietnam, or Russia thoese do not have monachy to be your shortcut.
If you have a problem with Monachy in general, go ahead and try British or Saudi Monachy. You can get promotion to be a hero overnight.
I do not think that you have any hidden agenda on this issue and please do not try to work harder to prove I am wrong.
“Will there be a call to boycott all these Universities?” > Why should young Thais study abroad at all? Their pure minds filled with Thainess will only be polluted by anti-hierarchical western ideas… Fortunately enough, there are also students such as “A Thai Student,” which gives some hope.
Lee Jones makes some good points. But why does he undermine his own credibility by adding the final sweeping and thus simply wrong assessment, “In reality there is neither freedom of speech nor academic freedom nor democracy in Thailand today”?
Looking at the list of scholars here who endorsed this letter to PM Abhisit objecting to the enforcement of the lèse majesté law, one has to be mightily impressed and resigned to conclude that their demand must be very compelling. But after re-evaluating the content of the letter in conjunction with facts and prior legal cases, I have to say that I am disappointed by these scholars and authors. It’s clear that our respected educators and scholars have allowed themselves to be used by a network of small group of Thai people who have the ax to grind. I strongly believe these scholars have misdiagnosed the root cause of the problem. Without offering detailed solutions/options to make this law more practical and effective as well as fair, I also have to question their motive meddling in the internal affairs of other countries. I wonder whether there’s an element of bias and an attempt to gang up against the Thai government under PM Abhisit here. Below are my thoughts & reasons.
Thailand is not immune from the effects of global economic meltdown. There are more important matters of higher priority affecting over 60 million lives in the Kingdom that PM Abhisit & his cabinet members must urgently deal with. But the authors and supporting casts here are trying to divert his and everyone’s attention to this one law that affects only a few disrespectful foreign visitors and some radical Thai instigators who wanted to seek headlines & fame, and who take pleasure seeing Thailand remains in the state of chaos. The authors who masterminded this offensive move want to put undue pressure on PM Abhisit so that he may falls apart just like what the fugitive exPM Thaksin publicly predicted or prescribed.
Many of these scholars spent considerable time (years and even decades) working, researching & living in Thailand. The scholars appeared to be a sympathetic bunch. But where were they when massive refugees from Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia flooded the country and took shelters there for years? Thailand has to carry tremendous burden taking care the refugees, totaling in millions, pretty much by herself most of those years immediately before and after the end of Vietnam War. As a small developing country with limited resources, Thailand did not complain about the enormous hardship she endured. Though Vietnam War ended almost 35 years ago, large numbers of refugees from countries near and far (Burma, Bangladesh, Laos, Pakistan, China, North Korea, etc.) have continuously made their ways into this small but friendly and free nation. Despite this fact, Thailand still does not create noise to gain global attention but continue to quietly deal with the problems immediately incurred and followed subsequently. Yet, the world has not seen or heard any foreign scholars who claimed to be friends of Thailand come out to publicly raise the awareness and help Thailand. No one stepped forward to defend Thailand when the rare incident of Rohingya refugee problem surfaced last month!
In their letter, the scholars mentioned they’re sympathetic to Thailand which I and other fair-minded Thais would disagree. It’s quite obvious to us that the authors and scholars are actually sympathetic to those who deliberately violated the law and being prosecuted. The problems derived not from the law itself or the monarchy but from the administrative function as well as the enforcement side of the equation.
In the past 60 years, it’s not a secret that King Bhumipol has done much more good things than bad to the people across the country. We all know that no one is perfect, and the King is no exception. The prince and princesses including their children are also far from perfect; they made mistakes. But the royal family did not involve in massive corruption or gross misconducts like Thaksin and politicians as well as those dictators before Thaksin. The King and the royal family members have never taken legal action against anyone who insulted or fabricated lies again them. More often than not, it has been the wicked politicians who abuse their power, intentionally and conveniently misapply the law against their opponents. Occasionally, a few insane and disrespectful Thai citizens and foreign visitors who wanted to prove their bravery and gain publicity stunt have decided to test the law/system. Normal people who are rational and have positive outlook would prefer to do something else for fun and experience that is better and more worthwhile.
In taking such action against this law, I’m not so sure our scholars have thorough knowledge about the detailed offensive acts committed by some of the accused. Specifically, these involved the case of Dar Topedo, Jukkrapob Penkae, Chotisak Onsoong, Giles Ungpakorn, Oliver Jufer & Harry Nicolaides. There are others who were charged but found not guilty after the due process was given under the nation’s judicial system. This includes the infamous repeat offender, Ajarn Sulak Sivaraksa. It’s all boiled down to the INTENT of the accused relative to the context or content.
In March 2007 Swiss national Oliver Jufer was convicted of lèse majesté and sentenced to 10 years for spray-painting on several portraits of the king while drunk in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Jufer was pardoned by the king on 12 April 2007. In most cities across the US, it is the crime to create graffiti on public or private properties. Is it right that this foreigner who knew about this sensitive subject from living in Thailand for sometime intentionally proceeded with his act? Is it acceptable to you when your guest deliberately defaced or mutilated the pictures of your beloved parent while visiting you?
In September 2008, Harry Nicolaides from Melbourne, Australia, was arrested at Bangkok’s international airport and charged with lèse majesté, for an offending passage in his self published book Verisimilitude. Subsequently, in January 2009, after pleading guilty, he was sentenced to three years in jail. On February 21, 2009, he was pardoned by the king and released. In this case, according to the testimony given by his fellow expatriate teachers, Harry told them he planned to add short stories on the sensitive subject (about the crown prince) to his book to help promote the sale. His colleagues warned him but he did it anyway. So, what was his intention? Whose fault is it?
In the case of Ms. Sudarat or Dar Topedo, Thais saw the VDO clip of her speech; no one has any doubt or dispute about the offense. Jukkapop Penkae’s cases are not as clear cut as Dar Topedo. However, Thais who have adequate education can pretty much see his unfriendly & hostile attitude after hearing & reading the contents of his speeches.
For Giles Unpakorn, what he said in his Red Siam Manifesto can very well be interpreted as the BLUEPRINT for Thaksin’s RED GUARDS. Without giving any evidence, he maliciously accused & blamed King Bhumipol on a few things besides showing his hatred on the monarchy or royal institution. He asked for democracy but wants to adopt socialism. He advocates changing the country into republic but then calls for a welfare state. He wants red shirt supporters of Thaksin to be free of fear but ironically most Thai people lived in fear during Thaksin’s regime and now fear to wear yellow shirt on the streets in the country! For one own self’s discovery, I would love to see everyone involved here in the letter (both the authors and supporting scholars) wear yellow shirts and travel around in Isan, north and northern part of central provinces, the strong holes of Thaksin’s red shirt thugs.
For Mr. Chotisak Onsoong, with his young and strong healthy body, he decided to challenge the law by sitting down while the entire audience stood up during the play of the Royal anthem. In disregarding the customary practice by the norm, the new graduate from Thammasart University claimed he wanted to exercise his freedom of expression and contended that it’s not the crime for thinking and acting differently. The young man seemed to be confused about the difference between social norm, respect, and one law versus other laws (freedom/rights).
Mr. Chotisak’s behavior reminded me of the unique occasion in mid Oct 2008 when University of Washington and Thai Consulate General from LA jointly put on a Thai cultural show celebrating 175 years of established diplomatic relations between Thailand and USA. The event was held in the Meany Hall of U. of WA in Seattle. Among the estimated 700 people attended, 100-200 were our American friends and Dr. Charles Keyes was the keynote speaker. The audience also included a former US Ambassador to Thailand and several scholars and professors. When the Thai musicians played the Royal anthem honoring King Bhumipol, all audience (Thai & non-Thai) stood up to show the respect. This happened in the US not Thailand! So, please compare this act to that of Chotisak in his home country. If the reason he did not or could not stand due to physical handicap or injury, then the reaction will surely be different.
Oh yes, the scholars talked about civil liberty in their letter but seemed to forget one of Lord Action’s words of wisdom which said: Liberty is not the power to do what we like but the right to do what we ought to. How is this statement reconciled against what Mr. Chotisak and the entire audience did as mentioned above? If the scholars really care about civil liberty and human rights, I wonder why they were silent when Thaksin and his cronies carried out the war on drugs where over 3,000 people were killed or kidnapped without due process. While the intents of these law breakers were quite clear but their ought-to-do or constructive comment about the monarchy was clearly absent. Likewise, our worldly renowned scholars on Thailand here while strongly criticized the lèse majesté law, their constructive idea (detailed solutions/improvement for fairness, effective enforcement, practical applicability & where the line should be drawn, etc.), was nowhere to be found in the letter. Our scholars seemed to forget that even small companies/organizations have rules, regulations and culture that employees must follow.
It’s quite amazing to find that the world leading scholars can easily be used as the tool to embarrass a small but friendly and harmless country like Thailand. Someone with the ax to grind did a good job convincing these learnt ones to jump on the wrecking train. It’s a good trial but I don’t believe it’ll work because the overwhelmingly majority of Thais in and outside the kingdom know the facts, love our King and have no problem with this lese majeste law. The young rising leader, PM Abhisit seemed to do a good job not being rattled by this hot air while focusing on the more pressing issues confronting him, the mass and the nation. A thumb down for our professors/scholars but thumb up for PM Abhisit! Stay focus, PM Abhisit! You have our supports.
I have been convinced. As a threatening, aggressive and especially haphazard person, I don’t want the ANU taking these characteristics from me by going to an environment where a rational, reasoned person could develop. All those other places are fine. It’s just the ANU where everyone is denouncing the King. I hear they are even parading a burning effigy of the King through Acton?! Pigs!!
I agree with Clifford Sloane that this debate is not about the King.
Taro Mongkoltip and 1PAD, the best thing you and others should do in order to prevent the abuse of the lese majeste laws (which created much of the current debate and undue criticism of the King) is to make a formal complaint against the Thai police who bring nonsensical or politically motivated cases before the Courts. Many foreigners agree with you, it is not the law itself that is a problem, but the abuse in the enforcement of it – including against foreigners. So the best way for you to help protect the lese majeste laws, is to actively report abuses direct to the Prime Minister’s office or the Palace. I suggest you start with Frank Anderson’s example (above) and also the policeman Boonlert Kalayanamit from the crime suppression unit that arrested Harry Nicolaides. Apparently the arrest warrant he prepared in Harry’s case was issued in March 2008, six months before the arrest. It was reported that Harry travelled internationally many times after March 2008 and even received another Royal Thai visa. He was arrested when the state of emergency started in Bangkok in late August 2008. This strongly suggests the arrest warrant was backdated as it’s not possible to travel internationally with an arrest warrant pending, even in Thailand.
Do your country and King a great favour, and report this clear abuse of the law to the Prime Minister’s office asking that they independently investigate and take stern action against the police involved, so that those thinking they will abuse the law in future, will think again. If you can’t or won’t do it, I hope other Thai citizens interested in protecting the Monarchy will read this post and make a formal complaint. Arguably, the police themselves should be prosecuted for lese majeste as abusing their law enforcement powers has caused the defamation of the King. There are current examples of the abuse of the lese majeste law occurring right now and dealing with them swiftly, publically and harshly is a better way to prevent further abuses than continued academic debate from a group of foreigners. It’s also better because reporting such abuse would be a genuine effort in protecting the Monarchy. If you don’t do anything about it or continue with name calling, you will simply attract more foreign attention.
I am sympathetic to Lee Jones views but wonder, given the unsettling precedent any kind of censorship would set, whether it would not be better for Khun Abhisit to give his talk at St John’s but with the proviso of a rigorous Q and A session.
Am I the only one to be bemused that St John’s College is in St Giles.
@Taro
What I did was trying to show you how good our King is and showed you my side of story.
Khun Taro, you are missing the point.
The point is not the King. All of you who want to defend the Lese Majeste laws can only defend the King.
Let’s set the record straight. Nobody posting in this thread wants to insult the King. In fact, I cannot find any poster who seriously wants to criticise the King, other than in a fair and objective way.
But that is not the point. The point is that the laws protect not only the beloved King but also everyone else in his Family, beloved or not. They are a weapon used by non-Royal hangers-on who make false claims, and they are used by those who will say, “I love the King more than you!” against their enemies.
If you want to understand the people who criticize the LM laws, first, bear in mind that it is NOT primarily about the King!!! The scholars who wrote the letter did NOT do so because they want to criticise the King. Even Khun Wukong, in posting #6 above, recognized that it is not about the King. To quote Khun Wukong:
And of course then we have to keep the law for HM King Bhumibol’s son HRH Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn. People have always secretly gossiped about him saying bad things about his behaviour and his married life and kids. Just think what they would say out loud without the lese majeste law! Too many people say really bad stuff about him. We need the law to protect him when he becomes king while he builds up his bun and barami so people stop gossiping about things he did in his past and he can become as naturally loved as his father.
So it makes no sense for you to defend the laws by defending the King. They are not the same issue.
I’m open for debate and discussion. However, how could I debate with you people in here when it seems that you fully believe that your opinion is absolutely perfect and better than others.
What I did was trying to show you how good our King is and showed you my side of story. But were you open for suggestion? I don’t think so.
So why do I bother coming back and debate here when many people here believe that they are some academic perfectionist. In which most likely I’ve seen a bunch of stubborn people who are convinced that they are far better than other people in developping countries.
You know what, with people like you, I will keep paying more taxes to Thai government to build a bigger prison for you to stay in there for life.
So, will Abhisit be greeted in Oxford by protests for the inhumanity inflicted on the Rohingya and LM victims? I hope his Alma Mater can remind him that several centuries look upon him when he walk those halls.
go to hell or just leave the country in peace…take all your families with you if they understand what you are thinking and doing . If you are certain you are right post your address on the web and see what happen.Basta rd.
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International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Re comment no. 41, Taro Mongkoltip // Mar 9, 2009 at 12:07 pm:
I hesitate to condescend, but it is so easy to do. Those bigger prisons you allude to proudly paid for by you will hold an increasing number of Thais, my friend, rather than foreigners, and you will soon find yourselves another Burmese style banana republic. This attitude of the pot calling the kettle black is not an unfamiliar error in mental reasoning, and thus easily appreciated by the foreigner. Because so many people subscribe to a dumb idea does not make it not dumb. As to foreigners not wanting the king or monarchy, get off that ivory pedestal you are on and listen to what people are saying. It should be embarrassing for you, by the way, to have foreigners solicit for your freedom rather than you doing it yourself. As to the right of foreigners to lobby one way or the other, of course there is a right. And often an obligation, something many Thai people don’t seem to appreciate. I have a child and grandchildren, a Thai wife and family and friends here, and don’t want any of them to face stupid lese majeste charges because an ignoramus takes offense and tries to put them in prison for stating the obvious or for putting forth a legitimate item of speech that no one is qualified to be offended by. Your attempt to teach foreigners is like that old anecdote of condescension told about Ben Franklin. He was accompanying a British general on a tour of the colonies and the British general noticed that colonial troops were conducting themselves in admirable fashion. The general said to Franklin, “I see you have taught your men to march in formation.” To which Franklin replied, “General, you can teach monkies to do that!”
Point, of course, is that we are well ahead of you and there is no need to be abusive, condescending or to resort to name-calling. Because we do not agree does not mean we do not understand. When you do the opposite – that is, fail to understand because you do not agree – then you have remained victim of your own social failure. That carries over into this mad pursuit of punishing those who have a valid opinion relating to the monarchy or other subjects here in Thailand. And I suspect this is why what some regard as trash like Chalerm and Chavalit and Sanan and Sanoh and Thaksin remain so loved by so many. There is no need for common sense. Don’t try to defend the lese majeste laws by denouncing others or by hoping that they all end up in immoral inhumane Thai prisons. Is there not a Thai saying that those who wish this upon their opponents will themselves fall prey to their own ignorance?
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
To: Giles, John and Western Media
I would suggest that if Thai Monachy makes you uncomfotable, it is your choice to leave in China, Vietnam, or Russia thoese do not have monachy to be your shortcut.
If you have a problem with Monachy in general, go ahead and try British or Saudi Monachy. You can get promotion to be a hero overnight.
I do not think that you have any hidden agenda on this issue and please do not try to work harder to prove I am wrong.
Lee Jones on Abhisit in Oxford
This is just plain wrong:
“..the Abhisit government has clamped down on political opponents by charging them with lese majeste, which carries a jail term of 15 years”
These cases began long before Abhisit came to power, in fact during the tenure of Thaksin’s proxies.
So much for Oxford “scholarship.”
Can’t even get the facts straight. Why read further?
What Oxford Thai Studies “scholars” need to do is:
1. Live in this country and absorb the problems and the media in detail so they can do more than merely echo pro-Thaksin red-shirt talking points.
2. Be more objective.
3. Be accurate.
4. Cite your sources like your teacher taught you (not in grade school anymore)
“Don’t study at the ANU”
“Will there be a call to boycott all these Universities?” > Why should young Thais study abroad at all? Their pure minds filled with Thainess will only be polluted by anti-hierarchical western ideas… Fortunately enough, there are also students such as “A Thai Student,” which gives some hope.
Lee Jones on Abhisit in Oxford
Lee Jones makes some good points. But why does he undermine his own credibility by adding the final sweeping and thus simply wrong assessment, “In reality there is neither freedom of speech nor academic freedom nor democracy in Thailand today”?
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Looking at the list of scholars here who endorsed this letter to PM Abhisit objecting to the enforcement of the lèse majesté law, one has to be mightily impressed and resigned to conclude that their demand must be very compelling. But after re-evaluating the content of the letter in conjunction with facts and prior legal cases, I have to say that I am disappointed by these scholars and authors. It’s clear that our respected educators and scholars have allowed themselves to be used by a network of small group of Thai people who have the ax to grind. I strongly believe these scholars have misdiagnosed the root cause of the problem. Without offering detailed solutions/options to make this law more practical and effective as well as fair, I also have to question their motive meddling in the internal affairs of other countries. I wonder whether there’s an element of bias and an attempt to gang up against the Thai government under PM Abhisit here. Below are my thoughts & reasons.
Thailand is not immune from the effects of global economic meltdown. There are more important matters of higher priority affecting over 60 million lives in the Kingdom that PM Abhisit & his cabinet members must urgently deal with. But the authors and supporting casts here are trying to divert his and everyone’s attention to this one law that affects only a few disrespectful foreign visitors and some radical Thai instigators who wanted to seek headlines & fame, and who take pleasure seeing Thailand remains in the state of chaos. The authors who masterminded this offensive move want to put undue pressure on PM Abhisit so that he may falls apart just like what the fugitive exPM Thaksin publicly predicted or prescribed.
Many of these scholars spent considerable time (years and even decades) working, researching & living in Thailand. The scholars appeared to be a sympathetic bunch. But where were they when massive refugees from Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia flooded the country and took shelters there for years? Thailand has to carry tremendous burden taking care the refugees, totaling in millions, pretty much by herself most of those years immediately before and after the end of Vietnam War. As a small developing country with limited resources, Thailand did not complain about the enormous hardship she endured. Though Vietnam War ended almost 35 years ago, large numbers of refugees from countries near and far (Burma, Bangladesh, Laos, Pakistan, China, North Korea, etc.) have continuously made their ways into this small but friendly and free nation. Despite this fact, Thailand still does not create noise to gain global attention but continue to quietly deal with the problems immediately incurred and followed subsequently. Yet, the world has not seen or heard any foreign scholars who claimed to be friends of Thailand come out to publicly raise the awareness and help Thailand. No one stepped forward to defend Thailand when the rare incident of Rohingya refugee problem surfaced last month!
In their letter, the scholars mentioned they’re sympathetic to Thailand which I and other fair-minded Thais would disagree. It’s quite obvious to us that the authors and scholars are actually sympathetic to those who deliberately violated the law and being prosecuted. The problems derived not from the law itself or the monarchy but from the administrative function as well as the enforcement side of the equation.
In the past 60 years, it’s not a secret that King Bhumipol has done much more good things than bad to the people across the country. We all know that no one is perfect, and the King is no exception. The prince and princesses including their children are also far from perfect; they made mistakes. But the royal family did not involve in massive corruption or gross misconducts like Thaksin and politicians as well as those dictators before Thaksin. The King and the royal family members have never taken legal action against anyone who insulted or fabricated lies again them. More often than not, it has been the wicked politicians who abuse their power, intentionally and conveniently misapply the law against their opponents. Occasionally, a few insane and disrespectful Thai citizens and foreign visitors who wanted to prove their bravery and gain publicity stunt have decided to test the law/system. Normal people who are rational and have positive outlook would prefer to do something else for fun and experience that is better and more worthwhile.
In taking such action against this law, I’m not so sure our scholars have thorough knowledge about the detailed offensive acts committed by some of the accused. Specifically, these involved the case of Dar Topedo, Jukkrapob Penkae, Chotisak Onsoong, Giles Ungpakorn, Oliver Jufer & Harry Nicolaides. There are others who were charged but found not guilty after the due process was given under the nation’s judicial system. This includes the infamous repeat offender, Ajarn Sulak Sivaraksa. It’s all boiled down to the INTENT of the accused relative to the context or content.
In March 2007 Swiss national Oliver Jufer was convicted of lèse majesté and sentenced to 10 years for spray-painting on several portraits of the king while drunk in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Jufer was pardoned by the king on 12 April 2007. In most cities across the US, it is the crime to create graffiti on public or private properties. Is it right that this foreigner who knew about this sensitive subject from living in Thailand for sometime intentionally proceeded with his act? Is it acceptable to you when your guest deliberately defaced or mutilated the pictures of your beloved parent while visiting you?
In September 2008, Harry Nicolaides from Melbourne, Australia, was arrested at Bangkok’s international airport and charged with lèse majesté, for an offending passage in his self published book Verisimilitude. Subsequently, in January 2009, after pleading guilty, he was sentenced to three years in jail. On February 21, 2009, he was pardoned by the king and released. In this case, according to the testimony given by his fellow expatriate teachers, Harry told them he planned to add short stories on the sensitive subject (about the crown prince) to his book to help promote the sale. His colleagues warned him but he did it anyway. So, what was his intention? Whose fault is it?
In the case of Ms. Sudarat or Dar Topedo, Thais saw the VDO clip of her speech; no one has any doubt or dispute about the offense. Jukkapop Penkae’s cases are not as clear cut as Dar Topedo. However, Thais who have adequate education can pretty much see his unfriendly & hostile attitude after hearing & reading the contents of his speeches.
For Giles Unpakorn, what he said in his Red Siam Manifesto can very well be interpreted as the BLUEPRINT for Thaksin’s RED GUARDS. Without giving any evidence, he maliciously accused & blamed King Bhumipol on a few things besides showing his hatred on the monarchy or royal institution. He asked for democracy but wants to adopt socialism. He advocates changing the country into republic but then calls for a welfare state. He wants red shirt supporters of Thaksin to be free of fear but ironically most Thai people lived in fear during Thaksin’s regime and now fear to wear yellow shirt on the streets in the country! For one own self’s discovery, I would love to see everyone involved here in the letter (both the authors and supporting scholars) wear yellow shirts and travel around in Isan, north and northern part of central provinces, the strong holes of Thaksin’s red shirt thugs.
For Mr. Chotisak Onsoong, with his young and strong healthy body, he decided to challenge the law by sitting down while the entire audience stood up during the play of the Royal anthem. In disregarding the customary practice by the norm, the new graduate from Thammasart University claimed he wanted to exercise his freedom of expression and contended that it’s not the crime for thinking and acting differently. The young man seemed to be confused about the difference between social norm, respect, and one law versus other laws (freedom/rights).
Mr. Chotisak’s behavior reminded me of the unique occasion in mid Oct 2008 when University of Washington and Thai Consulate General from LA jointly put on a Thai cultural show celebrating 175 years of established diplomatic relations between Thailand and USA. The event was held in the Meany Hall of U. of WA in Seattle. Among the estimated 700 people attended, 100-200 were our American friends and Dr. Charles Keyes was the keynote speaker. The audience also included a former US Ambassador to Thailand and several scholars and professors. When the Thai musicians played the Royal anthem honoring King Bhumipol, all audience (Thai & non-Thai) stood up to show the respect. This happened in the US not Thailand! So, please compare this act to that of Chotisak in his home country. If the reason he did not or could not stand due to physical handicap or injury, then the reaction will surely be different.
Oh yes, the scholars talked about civil liberty in their letter but seemed to forget one of Lord Action’s words of wisdom which said: Liberty is not the power to do what we like but the right to do what we ought to. How is this statement reconciled against what Mr. Chotisak and the entire audience did as mentioned above? If the scholars really care about civil liberty and human rights, I wonder why they were silent when Thaksin and his cronies carried out the war on drugs where over 3,000 people were killed or kidnapped without due process. While the intents of these law breakers were quite clear but their ought-to-do or constructive comment about the monarchy was clearly absent. Likewise, our worldly renowned scholars on Thailand here while strongly criticized the lèse majesté law, their constructive idea (detailed solutions/improvement for fairness, effective enforcement, practical applicability & where the line should be drawn, etc.), was nowhere to be found in the letter. Our scholars seemed to forget that even small companies/organizations have rules, regulations and culture that employees must follow.
It’s quite amazing to find that the world leading scholars can easily be used as the tool to embarrass a small but friendly and harmless country like Thailand. Someone with the ax to grind did a good job convincing these learnt ones to jump on the wrecking train. It’s a good trial but I don’t believe it’ll work because the overwhelmingly majority of Thais in and outside the kingdom know the facts, love our King and have no problem with this lese majeste law. The young rising leader, PM Abhisit seemed to do a good job not being rattled by this hot air while focusing on the more pressing issues confronting him, the mass and the nation. A thumb down for our professors/scholars but thumb up for PM Abhisit! Stay focus, PM Abhisit! You have our supports.
Further details on Giles’ Oxford talk
A Thai student –> Very good writing.. I am totally agree with you…
“Don’t study at the ANU”
I have been convinced. As a threatening, aggressive and especially haphazard person, I don’t want the ANU taking these characteristics from me by going to an environment where a rational, reasoned person could develop. All those other places are fine. It’s just the ANU where everyone is denouncing the King. I hear they are even parading a burning effigy of the King through Acton?! Pigs!!
Lee Jones on Abhisit in Oxford
First Giles, and now Lee Jones, are showing that hypocrites are not exclusively on the elites and yellow shirts side.
Academics calling for free speech, and at the same time trying to block others from being heard – what is the world coming to!
Positions teaching “the future king of Thailand”
Let royal children attend ordinary schools like any ordinary Thais.
On lèse majesté
Dear pkk: It’s not nice using foul language. Whatever you want to express, you can do so politely. The world would be better for carrying you in it.
“Don’t study at the ANU”
Stand your ground, ANU. Don’t be intimidated by a few reactionary Thais.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
I agree with Clifford Sloane that this debate is not about the King.
Taro Mongkoltip and 1PAD, the best thing you and others should do in order to prevent the abuse of the lese majeste laws (which created much of the current debate and undue criticism of the King) is to make a formal complaint against the Thai police who bring nonsensical or politically motivated cases before the Courts. Many foreigners agree with you, it is not the law itself that is a problem, but the abuse in the enforcement of it – including against foreigners. So the best way for you to help protect the lese majeste laws, is to actively report abuses direct to the Prime Minister’s office or the Palace. I suggest you start with Frank Anderson’s example (above) and also the policeman Boonlert Kalayanamit from the crime suppression unit that arrested Harry Nicolaides. Apparently the arrest warrant he prepared in Harry’s case was issued in March 2008, six months before the arrest. It was reported that Harry travelled internationally many times after March 2008 and even received another Royal Thai visa. He was arrested when the state of emergency started in Bangkok in late August 2008. This strongly suggests the arrest warrant was backdated as it’s not possible to travel internationally with an arrest warrant pending, even in Thailand.
Do your country and King a great favour, and report this clear abuse of the law to the Prime Minister’s office asking that they independently investigate and take stern action against the police involved, so that those thinking they will abuse the law in future, will think again. If you can’t or won’t do it, I hope other Thai citizens interested in protecting the Monarchy will read this post and make a formal complaint. Arguably, the police themselves should be prosecuted for lese majeste as abusing their law enforcement powers has caused the defamation of the King. There are current examples of the abuse of the lese majeste law occurring right now and dealing with them swiftly, publically and harshly is a better way to prevent further abuses than continued academic debate from a group of foreigners. It’s also better because reporting such abuse would be a genuine effort in protecting the Monarchy. If you don’t do anything about it or continue with name calling, you will simply attract more foreign attention.
Lee Jones on Abhisit in Oxford
Some proof, don’t you think, that Oxford alumni are a mixed bunch?
Lee Jones on Abhisit in Oxford
I am sympathetic to Lee Jones views but wonder, given the unsettling precedent any kind of censorship would set, whether it would not be better for Khun Abhisit to give his talk at St John’s but with the proviso of a rigorous Q and A session.
Am I the only one to be bemused that St John’s College is in St Giles.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
@Taro
What I did was trying to show you how good our King is and showed you my side of story.
Khun Taro, you are missing the point.
The point is not the King. All of you who want to defend the Lese Majeste laws can only defend the King.
Let’s set the record straight. Nobody posting in this thread wants to insult the King. In fact, I cannot find any poster who seriously wants to criticise the King, other than in a fair and objective way.
But that is not the point. The point is that the laws protect not only the beloved King but also everyone else in his Family, beloved or not. They are a weapon used by non-Royal hangers-on who make false claims, and they are used by those who will say, “I love the King more than you!” against their enemies.
If you want to understand the people who criticize the LM laws, first, bear in mind that it is NOT primarily about the King!!! The scholars who wrote the letter did NOT do so because they want to criticise the King. Even Khun Wukong, in posting #6 above, recognized that it is not about the King. To quote Khun Wukong:
And of course then we have to keep the law for HM King Bhumibol’s son HRH Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn. People have always secretly gossiped about him saying bad things about his behaviour and his married life and kids. Just think what they would say out loud without the lese majeste law! Too many people say really bad stuff about him. We need the law to protect him when he becomes king while he builds up his bun and barami so people stop gossiping about things he did in his past and he can become as naturally loved as his father.
So it makes no sense for you to defend the laws by defending the King. They are not the same issue.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Dear Ralph,
I’m open for debate and discussion. However, how could I debate with you people in here when it seems that you fully believe that your opinion is absolutely perfect and better than others.
What I did was trying to show you how good our King is and showed you my side of story. But were you open for suggestion? I don’t think so.
So why do I bother coming back and debate here when many people here believe that they are some academic perfectionist. In which most likely I’ve seen a bunch of stubborn people who are convinced that they are far better than other people in developping countries.
You know what, with people like you, I will keep paying more taxes to Thai government to build a bigger prison for you to stay in there for life.
Further details on Giles’ Oxford talk
So, will Abhisit be greeted in Oxford by protests for the inhumanity inflicted on the Rohingya and LM victims? I hope his Alma Mater can remind him that several centuries look upon him when he walk those halls.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Taking good care of your family and stay away from my country.
Farewell!
On lèse majesté
go to hell or just leave the country in peace…take all your families with you if they understand what you are thinking and doing . If you are certain you are right post your address on the web and see what happen.Basta rd.